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Thread: PoLR vs Role vs Hidden Agenda

  1. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by aixelsyd View Post
    Are you sure you didn't fumble up the HA description as you mostly were talking about the dual seeking function.

    Anyways, PoLR hits only are painful when it really shows on some occasions and people notice it and get on your ass about it. I've had this happen with an ESE and it was very infuriating and disconcerting.

    Stabs at the HA, which would be my Fi, hurts a lot more, though, because it's basically something you really, really care about and for someone to point out how you suck at it makes you feel worthless and it tends to hurt like hell.

    Criticism on the dual seeking function is less painful, but nonetheless, it can feel embarassing to a certain extent, but usually it would make me feel willing to admit that it's simply a weak point that needs further development.

    The role function, though, is generally more noticeable, IME, to other people, and causes a lot of anxiety when negatively commented on. It's harder to put a smokescreen up for because without your dual seeking function being devloped and which tends to be more neglected without stimuli, is really the only thing you can use to divert attention away from it.

    The nice thing about PoLR is that a well developed HA works to put the smokescreen up so PoLR based criticisms are less frequent and when they do come, one can look at the HA and if that's being used properly can be used to make the critic look like an ass.
    Nice job! This really applies to me, though the second part of the last sentence (about turning HA against the PoLR usage) I have almost no experience with, but I'm sure it's viable.

  2. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mimosa Pudica View Post
    Do you have the recipe for how to say "I'm not responsible..." without getting a HA hit straight back?
    It isn't always possible to get out of a PoLR hit, because some people will simply insist that your PoLR is everyone's responsibility. I can see why the person might respond to "I'm not responsible" by taking it into their own hands (an HA hit) - if the person isn't determined to make you deal with the issue one way or another, you might be able to respond to that by defending your personal space (in which your HA is satisfied) and maintaining enough distance that that isn't disturbed.

    Any universal recipe for staving off PoLR/HA hits would require a universal recipe for making people agree with you.

    EDIT: Most of the clueless responses - shrugging, "I have no idea," "I'm out of my depth" will convince people that you can't be expected to deal with the issue. "Pet peeve" is a handy way to express things you don't want to be around without saying that you're right. It can make you seem like a moron, but, well, most people don't bother morons.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mimosa Pudica View Post
    Could you give an example of how this works?
    How about your conflict with the EII in your family (your mother-in-law, if I remember correctly) over that girl (your daughter?)'s birthday party? We only had your perspective, but it did come up that the reason she was causing trouble was several relationships between family members - her bad relationship with the other mother, her good relationship with her husband, etc. These clumsy, absolute relationships conflicted with your more careful attention to the girl's feelings - she was quite willing to allow emotional trouble that would blow over eventually in order to act according to the clearer, more solid relationships. This is much like how a type will ignore methods that would be better in a given situation because they don't match the rest of the system.

    In this situation, the only HA that I know of was yours. As it turned out, you were more frightened than the situation warranted, because the girl liked having two parties. You, however, saw that an benefit (to the girl) that you were counting on was being dismissed without respect for , and knowing of no way to replace it with another benefit, attempted to set things back the way you wanted them.



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  3. #123
    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    Default Role/3rd and PoLR/4th Functions

    I find that the role function tends to be the one people are most consistently annoyed by. I think being that it is devalued, but also the most consciously prominent of the weak functions, it tends to provoke the most common negative reactions for people. It also shares the same temperament with our dominant function, meaning that they occupy a similar "space" in our consciousness; thus, having our role function activated or struck is more contradictory and invasive to our natural state.

    PoLR/4th function is weaker and less valued, and therefore something we are intrinsically more averse to, but it is so peripheral to our natural state (being both weak and of opposite temperament to the dominant function) that it really just doesn't register most of the time. Also, the PoLR can function in the same "block" as the dominant function, whereas the Role cannot, meaning that even while it is weak and not something we pay much attention to, it does have relevance to our most natural focus, rather than being antagonistic to it. I think it is partly BECAUSE it is relevant, in terms of functional blockings, to the dominant function, that it can be such an embarrassment: the Role is something we pay less attention to because it is divergent from our prominent focus and generally seen as unimportant/irrelevant, but the PoLR has relevant overlap with the dominant function, meaning that a hit to the PoLR is, in some way, not only pointing out our weakest spot, but also reflects poorly on our dominant function, making us look or feel weak in something we are normally confident in. Having your strengths and confidences undermined is much more threatening than simply having your weakness exposed.

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    Yeah. I think using someone's role function can provoke a more aggressive reaction, whereas hitting their PoLR just creates a kind of passive vulnerability. Maybe this is also because the leading function and role function deal with a lot of the same things but do so in diametrically opposed ways, so being exposed to your Role for drawn-out periods of time can really, really grate on you.
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  5. #125
    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    Yeah that's what I was getting at with the temperament thing.

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    Ok, gotcha.

    Also, maybe this is obvious, but people are more likely to be overconfident in their Role function. So they feel comfortable pushing back when other people are using it, but being exposed to their PoLR leads to a sense of mixed bewilderment and vulnerability -- or, like you mentioned, just plain obliviousness.

    I think you could say the same for elements 5 and 6, too. People more consciously and "aggressively" seek their HA, and their drive to experience their suggestive function remains in the background.
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    Right. Role is in many cases another way of doing something you already do. For me, it's something like, "you already focus on how the vague energy/vibe in the room makes you feel, now focus on how the crap you have cluttered all over your room makes you feel." It requires that I stop focusing on x, which is my normal state, and start focusing on y, which is an abnormal and annoying state to be in. Another way of saying this is that role is more annoying because it forces you to take your attention off your main function. I think that was a good observation on your part, Gilly (which I just parroted).

    Also agreed that polr is just not in your zone of focus (peripheral is a nice term for it). I just don't notice practical details. I'm not even actively hostile to them; I'm only actively hostile to being forced to deal with them, especially the expectation that dealing with something so unpleasant to me is the natural thing for everyone to do. But of course, we all assume that our ego and superid functions, especially the leading and dual-seeking, are the natural way to go about things. This is the source of the most pain in conflict relations, I think. I'm interested to further examine the idea that the potential relevance of the fourth function to the leading (as it is blocked with the leading in the comparative/kindred type) is a further source of its annoyance. Honestly, I've never quite understood how Te works in ILIs; it doesn't quite make sense to me. Perhaps an analysis of a comparative pair would yield some insight into this? I'd do it, but it's way too late and I have way too much work to be on a socionics site at all right now. But you know, 16types = crack, apparently. Except it doesn't mess up your teeth/face/lips.
    Not a rule, just a trend.

    IEI. Probably Fe subtype. Pretty sure I'm E4, sexual instinctual type, fairly confident that I'm a 3 wing now, so: IEI-Fe E4w3 sx/so. Considering 3w4 now, but pretty sure that 4 fits the best.

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  8. #128

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy View Post
    As for as I know the Role Function is sorta like a switch we can flip on and off... we don't automatically use that function, but when we decide to we can. I think sometimes we use it to cover up for other weak functions just because it's easier to use than they are.

    The hidden agenda is used to cover for one specific weak function, the POLR. In my experience, we can use our POLR function if our hidden agenda makes it safe for us. Someone wth a hidden agenda of Si may work out in order to be heathly, even though Se is their POLR. Having Fi as a POLR, I can use it as long as there's plenty of Fe going on. Fe makes me feel safe enough to use Fi.

    Does anyone else find that their hidden agenda motivates their Role Function? Like, without their hidden agenda being fullfilled, they have no motivation to use their Role Function?
    How would being with your dual affect this?
    Yeah definitely, it's like you temporarily lose all interest in your role, and default instead to your observing function. With the hidden agenda (mobilizing function, which is a much better term!) being fulfilled, the role function becomes energized and you become more expressive of it, and the polr.
    Last edited by ConcreteButterfly; 09-17-2015 at 12:38 AM.

  9. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by ConcreteButterfly View Post
    observing function
    wazzat?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy View Post
    wazzat?
    another name for the 7th function, the Ignoring

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    Hm. Seems like "observing" and "ignoring" are antonyms.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy View Post
    Hm. Seems like "observing" and "ignoring" are antonyms.
    True that, imo observing is correct because it initially observes everything. Then it seems to loop with the role function and ignore what conflicts with the base.

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    do people tend to think their role is interesting, but also kind of "bullshit"?

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    High Priestess glam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lemontrees View Post
    do people tend to think their role is interesting, but also kind of "bullshit"?
    i tend to see my Role function as something that i *need* to care about, but it gets tiring and boring quick if i have to spend too much time on it, especially when it's for someone who is requesting it (i.e. an Ne ego). in those cases i feel more stress, because then my weakness is on display for others to see.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lemontrees View Post
    do people tend to think their role is interesting, but also kind of "bullshit"?
    More bullshit than interesting, tbh

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    Quote Originally Posted by lemontrees View Post
    do people tend to think their role is interesting, but also kind of "bullshit"?
    Yes, for a politically incorrect answer. This SEI-Si I am acquainted with has 5+ different towels for her use in the shower. While her object discernment is fascinating, I wonder what is the point of all this?

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    Quote Originally Posted by silke View Post
    Yes, for a politically incorrect answer. This SEI-Si I am acquainted with has 5+ different towels for her use in the shower. While her object discernment is fascinating, I wonder what is the point of all this?
    i can't relate. i have no patience for those things lol.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lemontrees View Post
    do people tend to think their role is interesting, but also kind of "bullshit"?
    More like an obligation, which they secretly think is "bullshit", but do anyway. It's not interesting, just necessary.
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    Quote Originally Posted by glam View Post
    i tend to see my Role function as something that i *need* to care about, but it gets tiring and boring quick if i have to spend too much time on it, especially when it's for someone who is requesting it .... in those cases i feel more stress, because then my weakness is on display for others to see.
    This has been my experience as well.

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    Gimme an example of an Se-Polr hit

    C-EII-INFj 4w3 Sx/sp 479

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    Wait so Role is the "UGHHH do I have to ... ._. fine, but only because it doesn't necessarily conflict with my own agenda enough for me to avoid it, and it seems to help my social condition enough" while PoLR is the

    "o _ o 10011?"


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    Quote Originally Posted by Frogman View Post
    Wait so Role is the "UGHHH do I have to ... ._. fine, but only because it doesn't necessarily conflict with my own agenda enough for me to avoid it, and it seems to help my social condition enough" while PoLR is the

    "o _ o 10011?"
    "UGHHH do I have to ... ._. fine" is right so far as it goes (begrudging acceptance you might say), but I'm not sure that it doesn't conflict necessarily. I would say that part of the reason it is more natural is that as a Bold function it corresponds more closely with our normal energy level.

    Another idea I have been toying with is that somehow the effects of superego functions are similar (actually elements that share intro/extroversion in general). Ti and Fi both involve reducing information for example, and Fe and Te both involve activity. So perhaps this is why they are more psychologically comfortable, since they indirectly make the leading function's task easier. Functions of the opposite "version" tend to increase the work we have to do.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat View Post
    "You studied that subject at college for 4 years, and you still can't do anything right with it. You have learned nothing. What you did with regard to that subject yesterday -- well, it was so wrong, it's clear that you don't have a clue about it. It made no sense and it was useless".
    This was somewhat of a PoLR hit...

    Quote Originally Posted by Joy View Post
    What's are you trying to accomplish here? Seriously, do you even know? Your attempts at explaining it are making it sound like you have no idea what you're doing. What you're trying to do is not working at all and I can't believe that you can't see that. Never mind, there's no reason to even try to explain this to you because you just keep missing the point. Just go back to your useless activity and forget I mentioned anything.
    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    My god, this is very mean. I would rip apart anybody who said this to somebody I liked.
    Actually, this wasn't a PoLR hit at all... in fact, I even found it to be somewhat helpful...

    Quote Originally Posted by Smilingeyes View Post
    As for getting my PoLR hit a bull's eye would be roughly as follows:

    Your efforts are all in vain. No matter how much you strive you get old, weak, sick and then you die. You'll be a rotting corpse in a moldy pit with worms crawling out of your eyes. If you try enough you can already feel them under your skin.

    The feeling I get from a Role function hit is generally one of disgust.
    Well, that's just scary and nihilistic...

    --

    Hmm, I'll try to hit PoLR with my Fe and Ni. I'm not really sure how I do it, though:

    Fe: Wow, what you just said was totally offensive. Can't you understand how he feels? How can you be so insensitive? How can you not understand what he's FEELING? Do you not have any feelings yourself? Oh and by the way, you come across like a total fool, just so that you know.

    Ni: Well, isn't it OBVIOUS that it would turn out that way? How can you not know? I thought that it would be obvious to anyone... I mean, what you did was just so stupid, dangerous and thoughtless... you should have thought about it better.

    I don't really know how to do Ni, lol.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shaebette View Post
    Gimme an example of an Se-Polr hit
    An SLE looking directly at me and pointing to my acne scars and saying "you had acne here and here" I respond very badly to this type of criticism. I look away and it brings feelings of sadness and awareness which makes me feel inadequate. My duals don't do this shit. My duals want to fix things so they will reference to solution saying "drinking more water will make your skin less dry" and "I saw this person putting sour cream all over their face and it cleared their acne; here do you have some? I have some I can give you to try" My duals
    -
    Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
    Enneagram 5 (wings either 4 or 6)?


    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    An SLE looking directly at me and pointing to my acne scars and saying "you had acne here and here" I respond very badly to this type of criticism. I look away and it brings feelings of sadness and awareness which makes me feel inadequate. My duals don't do this shit. My duals want to fix things so they will reference to solution saying "drinking more water will make your skin less dry" and "I saw this person putting sour cream all over their face and it cleared their acne; here do you have some? I have some I can give you to try" My duals
    Your example just made me imagine that you are living in a secret society with people IQ levels below 80. "you had acne here"; "here do you have some ? I mean sour cream. try it" WHAT ? lol

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    Humanist Beautiful sky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr inappropriate View Post
    Your example just made me imagine that you are living in a secret society with people IQ levels below 80. "you had acne here"; "here do you have some ? I mean sour cream. try it" WHAT ? lol
    HahA it was a way to fix it
    -
    Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
    Enneagram 5 (wings either 4 or 6)?


    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by Singularity View Post
    Fe: Wow, what you just said was totally offensive. Can't you understand how he feels? How can you be so insensitive? How can you not understand what he's FEELING? Do you not have any feelings yourself? Oh and by the way, you come across like a total fool, just so that you know.
    That's really

    Ni: Well, isn't it OBVIOUS that it would turn out that way? How can you not know? I thought that it would be obvious to anyone... I mean, what you did was just so stupid, dangerous and thoughtless... you should have thought about it better.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush View Post
    That's really
    Nah... it's all about what other people are feeling. Besides, I wouldn't really know how else to really criticize.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Singularity View Post
    Nah... it's all about what other people are feeling. Besides, I wouldn't really know how else to really criticize.
    Tbh I agree with @thehotelambush on this. It seemed Fi to me too. Since it sounded like a focus on the personal feelings of people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Myst View Post
    Tbh I agree with @thehotelambush on this. It seemed Fi to me too. Since it sounded like a focus on the personal feelings of people.
    Well focusing on the feelings of people is Fe... and actually, I think this is a fairly typical behavior of creative Fe trying to "regulate" the emotional atmosphere and punish those who are offending. But SEIs are more likely to do this, because they're Negativists and are more critical.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Singularity View Post
    Well focusing on the feelings of people is Fe... and actually, I think this is a fairly typical behavior of creative Fe trying to "regulate" the emotional atmosphere and punish those who are offending. But SEIs are more likely to do this, because they're Negativists and are more critical.

    Not necessarily. When a dynamic changes TeSi base types are just as likely to notice people's feelings but also want to keep their feelings under control as they subject everything to control, and they institute pleasantness with the use of their Si creative.

    I'm concerned about people's feelings and I'm EII
    -
    Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
    Enneagram 5 (wings either 4 or 6)?


    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    Not necessarily. When a dynamic changes TeSi base types are just as likely to notice people's feelings but also want to keep their feelings under control as they subject everything to control, and they institute pleasantness with the use of their Si creative.

    I'm concerned about people's feelings and I'm EII
    What... does that mean? Well yes, but Fe types are probably better at it than Te types in general, and EIIs also have strong F.

    You should do a Fi PoLR one...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Singularity View Post
    Well focusing on the feelings of people is Fe... and actually, I think this is a fairly typical behavior of creative Fe trying to "regulate" the emotional atmosphere and punish those who are offending. But SEIs are more likely to do this, because they're Negativists and are more critical.
    Focusing on the feelings of people is Ethics, Fe approaches it differently than Fi, Fi deals with the personal attitudes towards something/someone, and Fe with a more "general" stance on them that's not directly linked to personal preferences, hence slightly less personal compared to Fi. Example of the latter from an EIE explaining:

    http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...=1#post1167012

    In your example, the part about focusing on whether you have any feelings was really Fi to me. Could be your Fi demonstrative, with some Fe intent in the expression, of course, it's slightly ambiguous for the rest of what you said.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Myst View Post
    Focusing on the feelings of people is Ethics, Fe approaches it differently than Fi, Fi deals with the personal attitudes towards something/someone, and Fe with a more "general" stance on them that's not directly linked to personal preferences, hence slightly less personal compared to Fi. Example of the latter from an EIE explaining:

    http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...=1#post1167012

    In your example, the part about focusing on whether you have any feelings was really Fi to me. Could be your Fi demonstrative, with some Fe intent in the expression, of course, it's slightly ambiguous for the rest of what you said.
    I think I would generally agree, but I'd have to understand Fi better. I'm reading sources but it's still not totally clear to me. I think Fi is about how you feel about someone, and how someone feels about you.

    But I don't necessarily agree that Fe is more "general", I think that has more to do with intuition.

    What I said explained:

    Fe: Wow, what you just said was totally offensive. > Disturbing the emotion of others

    Can't you understand how he feels? > Inability to read other's emotions

    How can you be so insensitive? > Inability to understand other's feelings or disturbing the emotion of others

    How can you not understand what he's FEELING? > Again, inability to understand other's feelings


    "Do you not have any feelings yourself?"

    Well honestly... I think a lot of Fe type say stuff like this, like "You have no feelings/emotion", and that usually hurt Te types because it makes them feel like robots.

    I don't really think that it's a criticism of Fi, because it's not concerned with your attitude toward someone, but just having feelings in general, like happiness or anger.

    Basically, it's disturbing to Fe types when others lack emotion.
    Last edited by Singu; 01-28-2017 at 02:11 AM.

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    I said this in another thread but I thought it would be fitting to add here.

    I actually think most clashing and fuss occurs between types who have contrary leading elements, like an EIE and an EII for example and perhaps even between mirage types as well.

    The leading function is the most stubborn and outwardly directed function. When you have two people with contrary leading elements this can lead to never ending battles on both sides. Easiest example I can think of is Si vs Se. Se leads tend to willingly go around creating a ruckus which bothers Si leads. The Si lead tries to stop the Se lead from disturbing the peace but the Se lead won't stop because of the stubborn nature of the leading function. The Si lead won't stop trying to stop the Se lead either and this creates the perfect condition non-stop fuss and arguing. I could go on how this could apply to other contrary types as well.

    Issues with the HA/polr don't happen the same way as this. The HA lacks the same sort confidence as the leading function to be able to openly oppose others who use the element contrary to it (polr). Its mostly only in situations where a person is expected to skillfully engage in their polr themselves that it becomes an issue between themselves and others.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Singularity View Post
    I think I would generally agree, but I'd have to understand Fi better. I'm reading sources but it's still not totally clear to me. I think Fi is about how you feel about someone, and how someone feels about you.
    It's like Ti vs Te.


    But I don't necessarily agree that Fe is more "general", I think that has more to do with intuition.
    It's hard to use wording that can't be misinterpreted, I didn't mean general in the intuitive way. Just less.. personal.


    What I said explained:

    Fe: Wow, what you just said was totally offensive. > Disturbing the emotion of others

    Can't you understand how he feels? > Inability to read other's emotions

    How can you be so insensitive? > Inability to understand other's feelings or disturbing the emotion of others

    How can you not understand what he's FEELING? > Again, inability to understand other's feelings
    I said it was slightly ambiguous because some of this depends on the actual presentation whether more Fi or Fe focused, which is especially seen well IRL. But that whole thing together is just really Fi focused to me because - if I were to be the recipient of the criticism - it's kinda questioning my own sensitivity about the personal feelings of mine and other people's. And that's absolutely Fi. Do you see what I mean?

    So for example, where you talk of "disturbing the emotion of others" here is a good example of Fi, the way you put it, due to your linking emotion to the individual, makes me think of having to be very careful of all the different personal feelings. It makes me feel like I have to focus on each person as their own individual, with much sensitivity required to not upset them with something silly.


    "Do you not have any feelings yourself?"

    Well honestly... I think a lot of Fe type say stuff like this, like "You have no feelings/emotion", and that usually hurt Te types because it makes them feel like robots.
    I hear this a LOT from Fi types and I see it as Fi criticism. It doesn't hurt me, I don't really care.

    The Fe types will instead just do something with the atmosphere and I can react to that/enjoy that, and to that it's irrelevant whether I have enough focus on personal feelings.

    Do you understand why I said this one was really really Fi?


    I don't really think that it's a criticism of Fi, because it's not concerned with your attitude toward someone, but just having feelings in general, like happiness or anger.
    That was really really not clear from your original writing, it was seemingly all focused on the feelings of the person as an attitude towards someone else's feelings. Again, that's Fi to me.

    None of your example mentioned externally expressed emotional states of happiness or anger.


    Basically, it's disturbing to Fe types when others lack emotion.
    No, then how would ExE dualize with LxI? I find it's truly disturbing to the Fi types only. In my experience Fe types don't criticize it, or they might joke about it, but no such serious criticism like the one you are talking about, they will just instead focus on getting things (emotionally) moving and I easily go along with it.

    I guess lack of receptivity, unwillingness to go along with it is what would be disturbing to Fe types and explicitly seen as "lacking emotion", maybe, I don't know, some Fe ego would have to chime in here.
    Last edited by Myst; 01-28-2017 at 01:55 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ares View Post
    I said this in another thread but I thought it would be fitting to add here.

    I actually think most clashing and fuss occurs between types who have contrary leading elements, like an EIE and an EII for example and perhaps even between mirage types as well.

    The leading function is the most stubborn and outwardly directed function. When you have two people with contrary leading elements this can lead to never ending battles on both sides. Easiest example I can think of is Si vs Se. Se leads tend to willingly go around creating a ruckus which bothers Si leads. The Si lead tries to stop the Se lead from disturbing the peace but the Se lead won't stop because of the stubborn nature of the leading function. The Si lead won't stop trying to stop the Se lead either and this creates the perfect condition non-stop fuss and arguing. I could go on how this could apply to other contrary types as well.

    Issues with the HA/polr don't happen the same way as this. The HA lacks the same sort confidence as the leading function to be able to openly oppose others who use the element contrary to it (polr). Its mostly only in situations where a person is expected to skillfully engage in their polr themselves that it becomes an issue between themselves and others.
    I find with LIEs real clashing occurs when it engages the Ethics elements just like Gulenko says about the relationship of Business vs Cold blooded types. That communication styles article (here) does also discuss Passionate and Sincere types together as having a lot of shit going on. Otoh, as long as it's a fully objective topic with the parties focused on problem solving, the Ti and Te get along decently well at least in my experience.

    I did openly oppose my Conflictor before on Ni matters. I actually became incredibly stubborn and could not let go of the issue and blew up eventually. It was really important to me that we get on the same page with it. I'm definitely more flexible when it's just Logic involved when interacting with Te types. My Ni HA is hardly flexible lol.

    But yeah I don't know what it would be like with Ni PoLRs, haven't noticed a conflict yet over Ni.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Myst View Post
    I find with LIEs real clashing occurs when it engages the Ethics elements just like Gulenko says about the relationship of Business vs Cold blooded types. That communication styles article (here) does also discuss Passionate and Sincere types together as having a lot of shit going on. Otoh, as long as it's a fully objective topic with the parties focused on problem solving, the Ti and Te get along decently well at least in my experience.

    I did openly oppose my Conflictor before on Ni matters. I actually became incredibly stubborn and could not let go of the issue and blew up eventually. It was really important to me that we get on the same page with it. I'm definitely more flexible when it's just Logic involved when interacting with Te types. My Ni HA is hardly flexible lol.

    But yeah I don't know what it would be like with Ni PoLRs, haven't noticed a conflict yet over Ni.
    The way I think Te and Ti cause friction which each other is that the Te type tends to do whatever they think they need to do in order to get something done without bothering do it in a way that makes sense to those around them. The Ti type will then attempt correct the Te type to do things in a way he/she thinks makes more sense, but the problem is that the Te type has already decided for themselves how they are going to do the task. The Ti type gets annoyed that the Te type isn't listening and things escalate from there.
    Last edited by Muddy; 01-28-2017 at 03:35 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ares View Post
    The way I think Te and Ti cause friction which each other is that the Te type tends to do whatever they think they no need in order to get something done without bothering do it in a way that makes sense to those around them. The Ti type will then attempt correct the Te type to do things in a way he/she thinks makes more sense, but the problem is that the Te type has already decided for themselves how they are going to do the task. The Ti type gets annoyed that the Te type isn't listening and things escalate from there.
    I dunno, I don't relate to that at all with LIEs at least. I don't correct people's way of doing things if I see they are coping with the task alright and it does not get in the way of anything else. Why should I care about the details of how they are going to do it if they have no problem sorting it out? LIEs usually have no problem with it.

    Where I did have friction before was them wanting to take all control in doing some things but that's just competing over the same Logic related areas.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Myst View Post
    I dunno, I don't relate to that at all with LIEs at least. I don't correct people's way of doing things if I see they are coping with the task alright and it does not get in the way of anything else. Why should I care about the details of how they are going to do it if they have no problem sorting it out? LIEs usually have no problem with it.

    Where I did have friction before was them wanting to take all control in doing some things but that's just competing over the same Logic related areas.
    It isn't always 100% guaranteed that the Ti lead will recognize the Te lead's competence. To the Ti type it can appear that Te type is doing everything wrong all the way up until the job is finished. Sometimes a Te lead can succeed in doing what they thought need to be done, but can cut corners around areas the see as non-essential which can give the Ti base the wrong impression that Te type isn't doing something correctly. Being Te base also does not 100% guarantee they will not make mistakes or do something wrong. In such cases this can cause Ti types to get angry, especially if the mistake is due to the Te base not following standard procedures.

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