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Thread: Do ESFps have ANY redeeming qualities?!

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    Quote Originally Posted by voider View Post
    Damn all of you have such a dim fucking view of SEEs. But it's probably true, except I'm not a normie SEE considering I'm on this forum, so I can't really relate to it. I relate to the more innocent version of that which is white lies to make the other person feel better, though.
    I didn't say all SEEs...one of my closest friends now is a SEE guy and he still constantly lies or covers up the truth about a load of small things, I don't fully understand his behavior, i prefer people to know where I stand so they can adjust, but anyway it's never over the top. Another SEE E3 I work with - she can really completely lie in your face and you have to show her an e-mail or something written where she wrote the opposite of what she is saying. She's still quite well-liked and can work very hard and has many positive qualities...
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    Quote Originally Posted by shotgunfingers View Post
    See conversion chart:



    This makes sense why most ppl who go by behaviour attribute SLE to ppl like Trump for example, because he is ESTP in MBTI & behaviour... but a real SLE is more like MBTI ENTJ or INTJ.
    Wait, how was that data gathered? Were the people self-typed? Did they just compare the descriptions? This table makes it look like you can make equivalences like ENTJ<=>SLE, but I have an intuition sure that the methodoly behind it won't allow that kind of reasoning.

    And btw there's an error, the p/j dichotomy is not flipped in the table for introverts; like SLI and ISTP are considered the most probable type for each other.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lkdhf qkb View Post
    Wait, how was that data gathered? Were the people self-typed? Did they just compare the descriptions? This table makes it look like you can make equivalences like ENTJ<=>SLE, but I have an intuition sure that the methodoly behind it won't allow that kind of reasoning.

    And btw there's an error, the p/j dichotomy is not flipped in the table for introverts; like SLI and ISTP are considered the most probable type for each other.
    They translated the MBTI descriptions (the official ones) into Russian and had the socionist experts in Kiev type each description. The table is the result.
    Yeah, it seems SLI = ISTP. The J-P switch is just bs..


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    Quote Originally Posted by voider View Post
    Damn all of you have such a dim fucking view of SEEs. But it's probably true, except I'm not a normie SEE considering I'm on this forum, so I can't really relate to it. I relate to the more innocent version of that which is white lies to make the other person feel better, though.
    SEE's can quickly get a lot of hate when you're the type that both, wants to be in the spotlight at all times and has a devil may care attitude that charges in without thinking.
    Of course most of them may even deserve it, but SEE's are still amazing people in reality, though it's work to make it seem as such on paper.

    Quote Originally Posted by lkdhf qkb View Post
    Wait, how was that data gathered? Were the people self-typed? Did they just compare the descriptions? This table makes it look like you can make equivalences like ENTJ<=>SLE, but I have an intuition sure that the methodoly behind it won't allow that kind of reasoning.

    And btw there's an error, the p/j dichotomy is not flipped in the table for introverts; like SLI and ISTP are considered the most probable type for each other.
    P/J "dichotomy" as you call it is a lie dude, and I agree with that graph that it is most easily seen in SLI and MBTI ISTP. Both are extremely correlated to enneagram 9w8 while LSI and ISTJ do not have such a strong correlation towards it. In my experience socionics deals much more with how a person interacts with society, and while both deal with a person's personality, they are still extremely distinct in comparison. Enneagram seems to be a bit of a mash up plus some extras with a lot of claims but I don't hold a strong opinion of it either way.

    The same correlation happens with ILI and INTP, though it's less clear as both MBTI INTP and INTJ are strong fives, INTPs and ILIs move towards wing four while INTJs and LIIs move towards wing 6. Though of course that's just data, not a rule. It gets more interesting with extraverts, Se/Si, and Fi/Fe. Enneagram is just a quick way to show a third viewpoint here in relation to both MBTI and Socionics, a much more accurate analysis could make the same links without it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by voider View Post
    Damn all of you have such a dim fucking view of SEEs. But it's probably true, except I'm not a normie SEE considering I'm on this forum, so I can't really relate to it. I relate to the more innocent version of that which is white lies to make the other person feel better, though.
    I usually like SEEs, personally. But types with stronger personalities ruffle a lot of feathers, and so people complain about them more -- ESEs are the Alpha equivalent. You shouldn't take it personally.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FreelancePoliceman View Post
    I usually like SEEs, personally. But types with stronger personalities ruffle a lot of feathers, and so people complain about them more -- ESEs are the Alpha equivalent. You shouldn't take it personally.
    Taking things personally is what I do best! I actually commented on this in my questionnaire, lmfao. There's rarely such a thing as objective judgement from my end, and I'll be the first to admit it. In the end, I'm not really willing to discuss these things in a vacuum in which I am removed from The Type, as this thread is not based on an objective viewpoint either. On some level many people experience identification with what type they've chosen for themselves, and I do too. So why shouldn't I defend my subjective perception from this person's subjective attacks?

    I realize it's a waste of time and energy. Still, it made me angry, and responding was the only way to let out that anger. Saying I shouldn't take things personally is not something that will ever be constructive, at least not to me -- my parents have tried very hard to convince me to stop, as if it's a matter I have much choice in. I don't. Not yet, at least. We'll see in 10 years.

    ETA: I still reacted with constructive on your post because it's constructive to point it out, but I really can't do anything with that information, is what I meant to say.
    Last edited by voider; 09-17-2020 at 09:45 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by calm View Post
    But they lie COMPULSIVELY. They can not stand to tell the truth. Is it Ti polr? They will even say their name with an accent it doesn’t have, just to squeeze a lie in. They will switch around numbers if you ask for their phone number, just to lie some more. They love lying more than the reckless excessive irresponsible sex, and surprisingly more than they love stealing, and stealing men/women from people, kicking people while their down, and manipulating them, and abusing young children.
    Wow that escalated quickly. Accusing a group of people of crimes like abuse is pretty heavy without any substantial evidence besides "All of the ones I know do that" and "If they tell you otherwise they are lying". From your posts you seem Fi>Ni. I would type you EII. Your dislike of them would make sense if it's a supervision relationship.

    PS: Everyone lies from time to time. No one has an obligation to provide you with the truth at all times. So no need to go apeshit about that. Manipulation, betrayal and abuse of power I can't condone though; what you describe sounds as if the SEE were using lies as some way to have "intellectual domination"(Te HA) which is pretty fucked up tbh

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    Quote Originally Posted by shotgunfingers View Post
    The correlation chart I posted is from Expat (an old forum memeber here) as far as I understood at one point socionics experts typed MBTI descriptions in Kiev and that chart was the result. Original MBTI is just the dichotomies, no functions. Even so, the functional model is abstract and an attempt at describing internal information processing, even IF nowadays the MBTI tries to use functions, their Se for example is more like socionics Si and there are other differences which means you can't translate Se-Fi SEE into MBTI ESFP via the functions, because it won't be the same kind of person MBTI ESFP is describing.

    e_e so if we type someone by surface behavior here as ESFP... all 4 socionics types SEE, EIE, IEE and ESE are likely until we can actually check how that person thinks internally. I'm not good at this, so I try not to type ppl, which is why I was reticent to type you as well and its why I rely on data and statistics from authority figures in socionics such as Gulenko. It's simply safer than wild speculation and being wrong / misinforming a forum member, such as yourself here.
    The problem with this lies in the brutal difference between the cognitive functions of the MBTI and those of socionics.

    We could differentiate as follows. The cognitive functions of the MBTI are a way to justify the types at a deeper level, the true basis for the MBTI types are the dichotomies. The cognitive functions of MBTI are a simplification and vulgarization of Jung's cognitive functions, but worse.
    The MBTI is, to this day, a simple fandom for teenage girls, and a simple way to make profit from useless self-help books. MBTI personality types are simply fictional tropes in which kids search for a cool identity.
    Socionics is a "scientific" approach (I know this definition is not the most correct, but I cannot find the word in english) towards Jung's theory of cognitive types. It is much more complex and complete than any model, and it has a greater basis in tangible reality. Socionics also has a sort of central system from which all schools come from.

    I will give an example of why socionics and MBTI cannot correlate through IM and cognitive functions, mainly because of the contradictory and behavioral nature of MBTI functions.
    The xNTJ of the MBTI are Ni and Te, Ni in MB is related to long-term ambitions, tactics (socionics Se) as well as strategic thinking (Te and Ti in socionics), and Te is related to hierarchy and structure (Ti socionics) the will to power and domination (Se socionics) and effectiveness (Te socionics).
    Since Ni and Te in MBTI have more Ti and Se component than Ni and Te in socionics, it is safe to say that the MBTI INTJ does not correlate with the ILI but with the LSI, and that the MBTI ENTJ does not correlate with the LIE, but with the SLE.
    In my opinion, once you get into socionics, the best thing to do is to completely abandon the MBTI, because it is nothing more than a fandom. Damn, I myself have always tested in MBTI as INTJ and INTP without deviations, and in socionics I am completely lost.
    Last edited by RBRS; 09-17-2020 at 12:19 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Frddy View Post
    Damn, I myself have always tested in MBTI as INTJ and INTP without deviations, and in socionics I am completely lost.
    This is merely my opinion: Ni HA in xSI imo can make one mistype as IxI.

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    Quote Originally Posted by calm View Post
    I prefer LIEs 100 percent. I’ll probably marry one of those. We can have a SEE child together to ease the mirror woes, I can just send the little shit to their room when their evil ESFP tendencies show up.
    ew, friend. your bitterness while you're hurting is gross.
    your grief over the betrayals..you're spewing bigotry instead of facing your hurt and moving through it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by voider View Post
    Damn all of you have such a dim fucking view of SEEs. But it's probably true, except I'm not a normie SEE considering I'm on this forum, so I can't really relate to it. I relate to the more innocent version of that which is white lies to make the other person feel better, though.
    Leave it to a SEE to try to justify deceit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    I didn't say all SEEs...one of my closest friends now is a SEE guy and he still constantly lies or covers up the truth about a load of small things, I don't fully understand his behavior, i prefer people to know where I stand so they can adjust, but anyway it's never over the top. Another SEE E3 I work with - she can really completely lie in your face and you have to show her an e-mail or something written where she wrote the opposite of what she is saying. She's still quite well-liked and can work very hard and has many positive qualities...
    Lying is like breathing air to them. I’ve never met one who could tell the truth. They’d probably explode.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lkdhf qkb View Post
    Wow that escalated quickly. Accusing a group of people of crimes like abuse is pretty heavy without any substantial evidence besides "All of the ones I know do that" and "If they tell you otherwise they are lying". From your posts you seem Fi>Ni. I would type you EII. Your dislike of them would make sense if it's a supervision relationship.

    PS: Everyone lies from time to time. No one has an obligation to provide you with the truth at all times. So no need to go apeshit about that. Manipulation, betrayal and abuse of power I can't condone though; what you describe sounds as if the SEE were using lies as some way to have "intellectual domination"(Te HA) which is pretty fucked up tbh
    Dude I’m an ILI, let’s move on from that. ILIs can hate SEEs. They are easy to hate for all the reasons I listed. Please tell me how Te hidden agenda equates to intellectual domination. The lying to me just confirms they are dumb as rocks.

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    For those in denial: this is what a troll thread looks like.


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    Quote Originally Posted by calm View Post
    Dude I’m an ILI, let’s move on from that. ILIs can hate SEEs. They are easy to hate for all the reasons I listed. Please tell me how Te hidden agenda equates to intellectual domination. The lying to me just confirms they are dumb as rocks.
    I think ILI's who enjoy the company of SEE's do so for social psychological reasons. It depends on how the ILI relates to others overall, and the amount of patience they possess..

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    Quote Originally Posted by Samson View Post
    For those in denial: this is what a troll thread looks like.
    Yeah. e_e that's why I blocked OP. At least I managed to inject something constructive into the conversation.

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    Those who cause you the most pain are often the most valuable. The worst are usually the indifferent ones.

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    Quote Originally Posted by calm View Post
    I am fed up with the duals in my life. I'm beginning to wonder whether duality is all it's cracked up to be because my ESFps seem to cause more headaches than they are worth. I have a dual parent, a dual friend, and a dual love interest and they are all looking like lost causes to me. I have had to deploy a ridiculous amount of forgiveness to tolerate them. No matter how much true love I display, it is never returned.

    My ESFp parent:
    -Abused me physically for the smallest things growing up
    -Could not tell when being manipulated by others and allowed those manipulations to lead to the abuse of others, especially me
    -I never truly felt loved by this parent unless something was up. I was supported financially, but it is routinely thrown in my face
    -Married to a mirage, miserable, perpetual cheater, and appears selfless to others but those closer to the circle witness the truth selfishness of their actions
    -Cares a lot about appearances, but underneath it all is an awful rolemodel
    -Never reaches out to me first but complains to others that I don't try hard enough to mend our relationship (because as the child that's obviously my job)

    My ESFp friend:
    -Great for partying or adventures, but has mood swings and becomes very emotionally manipulative
    ex: If I'm dating a guy and I'm happy but she isn't, she will try to manipulate my thoughts about the guy
    -Doesn't listen to sound advice, but when shit hits the fan, expects me to suffer with her
    -Nowhere to be found when I'm depressed or have mood swings of my own
    -Allows other friends of questionable morale to come between us
    -Uses everyone, has 0 interest in someone who doesn't apparently have something she can use (money or fame)
    -Won't tell anyone how she feels but expects them to "know", (My Fe polr won't tolerate this at all)
    -Randomly chooses to ignore me, abandon me, and give me the cold shoulder and is appalled when I don't run back to her
    -Will reject people's help if she didn't lie, swindle, or seduce them to get her way
    -Will be jealous of people who work for what they have, unlike her
    -Admittedly hates seeing people happy if she is not
    -The entire friendship gives me the feeling that she wishes I were a lesbian and in love with her, that way she could seduce me and take advantage of me
    -Will pretend she has no money so I'll pay for her
    -When I buy her food or something she needs, she never shows appreciation. She might say thank you once, but quickly makes a habit of becoming entitled to the good treatment. Continues to complain that no one cares about her.
    -I never know where I stand with her and am constantly walking on eggshells to keep her happy
    -Gives the impression that she could care less about our friendship even though it's obvious I am quite literally the only genuine friend she has.
    -Will run off when I try to stand up against her mistreatment then shit-talk me and tell a twisted version of what happened to whoever is willing to listen, one time she painted me as an awful person on social media.

    We are currently on an OFF stage and I've decided to let her go. She is in bad financial shape and deeply in need of someone and I've decided to leave her to the wolves. Why should I, the better friend (not to mention, the Victim), have to chase her?

    My ESFp love (interest?): I'll start this off by saying it has been extremely hard to find a straight, male ESFp. I'm starting to wonder if they even exist...
    -No solid career, no stable income and no concrete plan to have either
    -Easily spends what money he does have on useless things
    -Easily swindled into get rich quick schemes
    -No desire to "be a man" and work or take care of a woman
    -I once told him I was in a bad situation, he showed no concern ("Gotta go, you're being too negative")
    -Is taken care of by and living with his mother
    -Hypersexual Tinder addict whose admittedly slept with close to 200 girls
    -Keeps mentioning transwomen and gay men, being "mistaken" for gay, to the point of suspicion
    -Hard for me to tell when his compliments or anything he says is sincere, because...
    -He is constantly lying about even the smallest things, just for me to catch him in his lies because he never remembers them once they leave his mouth
    -Is also attracted to people with money and fame, leading me to wonder if I will be used for these things or left for someone with more of it
    -Tells me he likes me, has fun with me, but never texts me first or makes plans with me

    With duals, it's like I'm constantly trying to force them to see the value in me and in our pairing, no matter how much they are benefitting from it.
    The things they value are things I have but refuse to be used for like money. I instead would like to help them make money using their talents and dissuade them from making bad decisions or hanging around the wrong crowd. I do all this expecting nothing in return. And yet, they tend to hurt me more than any other type I have relationships with. And though we have good times together, I end up feeling like I get nothing out of the pairing. They have proven themselves to be selfish, self-serving, and willing to do anything with anyone to meet their needs.
    They don't seem to stand on any moral principles, can't tell which friends or love interests are worth their time and effort, and are constantly using me as an emotional punching bag if not just stringing me along. It has caused more damage to my trust and self esteem than growth in my opinion. I almost wish I was a different type so I wouldn't have such an awful dual type. No matter how much help you give them, they are a bottomless pit and will have you feeling like you put time and effort in for nothing. Then they happily move on to someone who treats them worse but is more loved and appreciated by them than you were.
    Sounds like a narcissist or a sociopath, that last guy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by voider View Post
    Taking things personally is what I do best! I actually commented on this in my questionnaire, lmfao. There's rarely such a thing as objective judgement from my end, and I'll be the first to admit it. In the end, I'm not really willing to discuss these things in a vacuum in which I am removed from The Type, as this thread is not based on an objective viewpoint either. On some level many people experience identification with what type they've chosen for themselves, and I do too. So why shouldn't I defend my subjective perception from this person's subjective attacks?

    I realize it's a waste of time and energy. Still, it made me angry, and responding was the only way to let out that anger. Saying I shouldn't take things personally is not something that will ever be constructive, at least not to me -- my parents have tried very hard to convince me to stop, as if it's a matter I have much choice in. I don't. Not yet, at least. We'll see in 10 years.

    ETA: I still reacted with constructive on your post because it's constructive to point it out, but I really can't do anything with that information, is what I meant to say.
    well I don’t think you seem like a liar... never thought oh that voider must be a liar because she’s SEE lol. you seem pretty honest and chill to me imo
    ♓︎ 𝓅𝒾𝓈𝒸𝑒𝓈 ♓︎ 𝓅𝒾𝓈𝒸𝑒𝓈
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    Duals angry at each other.
    People trying to retype people.
    OP is called a troll and blocked.

    I voted 5 stars.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nobody View Post
    Duals angry at each other.
    People trying to retype people.
    OP is called a troll and blocked.

    I voted 5 stars.
    doolz mad

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    Duality is overrated because it’s never a good idea to put all your weakest parts in one person because they’ll use it against you. I see ppl romanticize duality when in reality, this is a person who is opposite of you in every way and there’s some weird social expectation you’re supposed to love them It's best when you have SOME outside help with your superid from more than one person, and the rest is up to you. Anything else is codependent. Even if Duality works, and that's a big IF, the helpfulness is still overrated. Yes, it may help you "integrate," but the results are inferior to when the integration occurs via more than one relationship in your life. One person can never be enough. You’re better off learning Se from SLE. Fi... yuck. Theory goes with ILI learning Fi better from IEE as mirage.

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    Quote Originally Posted by voider View Post
    Taking things personally is what I do best! I actually commented on this in my questionnaire, lmfao. There's rarely such a thing as objective judgement from my end, and I'll be the first to admit it. In the end, I'm not really willing to discuss these things in a vacuum in which I am removed from The Type, as this thread is not based on an objective viewpoint either. On some level many people experience identification with what type they've chosen for themselves, and I do too. So why shouldn't I defend my subjective perception from this person's subjective attacks?

    I realize it's a waste of time and energy. Still, it made me angry, and responding was the only way to let out that anger. Saying I shouldn't take things personally is not something that will ever be constructive, at least not to me -- my parents have tried very hard to convince me to stop, as if it's a matter I have much choice in. I don't. Not yet, at least. We'll see in 10 years.

    ETA: I still reacted with constructive on your post because it's constructive to point it out, but I really can't do anything with that information, is what I meant to say.
    I'm sorry for the bad advice then. Hm. Being deceitful isn't necessarily bad in itself, and anger is motivating -- it gets stuff done. There are plenty of SEEs I admire who've put their strengths to good use.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sbbds View Post
    Do massive textwall posts have any redeeming qualities?
    If you call that a massive post, I'm sorry about your reading habits and your attention span.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beautiful sky View Post
    My ESFP dad never said “I love you “ or showed love either. He was very cold while I was very warm. It’s an attribute of some ESFP to be physically distant but they show love in cooking for you and maybe providing financially lol
    Gammas in general often feel like stone cold bitches but I feel like part of that comes from age and bitterness lol.

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    I don't see SEEs are more evil than other types- but I can see how maybe they can use their manipulative Fe to look like the 'innocent' one while they are really the one playing all the strings. The affection feels genuine to me (that's why I <3 them), but of course people dishonestly manipulate with honest things all the time. =D

    I think Se valuing duals have a harder time getting together and staying there compared to Si valuing anyway. At least online SEEs seemed to have liked me more than their duals- as semi-duality can feel more dual-like than regular duality much of the time. I think duality needs more of an outside support structure to work- especially Se valuing duals. SEE's Fe can be really ego-like seeming compared to the functional placement of other types IMNSHO. To not annoy and push away an ILI, I would think they would have to really make sure they use it in a demonstrative-y way compared to an ego one as to not PoLR hit the poor ILI.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BandD View Post
    I don't see SEEs are more evil than other types- but I can see how maybe they can use their manipulative Fe to look like the 'innocent' one while they are really the one playing all the strings. The affection feels genuine to me (that's why I <3 them), but of course people dishonestly manipulate with honest things all the time. =D

    I think Se valuing duals have a harder time getting together and staying there compared to Si valuing anyway. At least online SEEs seemed to have liked me more than their duals- as semi-duality can feel more dual-like than regular duality much of the time. I think duality needs more of an outside support structure to work- especially Se valuing duals. SEE's Fe can be really ego-like seeming compared to the functional placement of other types IMNSHO. To not annoy and push away an ILI, I would think they would have to really make sure they use it in a demonstrative-y way compared to an ego one as to not PoLR hit the poor ILI.
    I've read that SEE manipulations don't really work with ILIs. According to some article I read years ago, ILIs "ignore excessive force," and apparently are pretty good at just "blocking" the force and manipulations of SEEs. They aren't prone to being afraid of the Se or feeling as if they need to change their behavior in response to it.

    Part of the requirement for duality is that the special talents that make the dual so bang-up at "working" other people or situations doesn't tend to work so well with the dual type. Yes, you can help them pretty well, but they're also "immune" in a way to any attempt to gain a special advantage. But they are also more likely to fall for you too. It's paradoxical like that.

    IDK if you've ever seen the show Lucifer, but Chloe has that with Lucifer. She's immune to the special ability he has to get other people to tell him her secrets or to reveal her inner desires to him. And she's at least as good a detective as he is in many ways. He will often show up to a crime scene and moments later she pops up behind him lol. He will try to go do some research on his own using his supernatural intelligence and cunning, but boom, ordinary little Chloe just pops up behind him like it's no thing. She's also the only one who can make the invulnerable Lucifer vulnerable. He is forced to comply with her to some degree because she's basically the only thing that can kill him. She's mortal herself, of course, but she also invokes mortality on this otherwise immortal being. There's also an episode where Lucifer uses his mortality to die and get out of an impossible situation, so even that weakness is turned into a strength somehow.

    Same thing with the two main characters from True Blood, Sookie Stackhouse and Bill Compton. Sookie's ability of telepathy doesn't work for Bill. She can't read his mind no matter how hard she tries. But it's a relief for her, because she's always having other people's thoughts barge into her mind when she just wants some peace. Her blood also confers the special ability onto him of being able to walk in sunlight. His blood can also heal a mortal wound for Sookie. And Sookie can't be "glamored" like ordinary mortals can. She just looks at him and laughs.

    So it doesn't really matter that SEE manipulates for ILI. They can see through it pretty quickly. Their sense of logic is enough that if something doesn't make sense for them, everything else stops. They don't care about the force used to deliver the message or the charm. It's just, "Wait, what? That doesn't make any sense." You can see a similar thing happening at times with the conflict dual dyad ESE and LII. On The Nanny, Fran Drescher will often try something and Mr. Sheffield will just look askance at her like, "What?" And she'll get nervous and then go along with him or change what she's saying/doing. He can't do that all the time, though, because he wants her. She brings color to his otherwise drab life and brings all the relationships he needs to him. So it's a balance.
    Last edited by Aramas; 10-04-2020 at 11:33 PM.

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    The easy answer to the question is:


    DO I HAVE ANY REDEEMING QUALITIES?


    IF yes, they do. If not, then I guess not?


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    Quote Originally Posted by Aramas View Post
    If you call that a massive post, I'm sorry about your reading habits and your attention span.
    I should have said wall of garbage. There, better?

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    Quote Originally Posted by DEAD View Post
    The easy answer to the question is:


    DO I HAVE ANY REDEEMING QUALITIES?


    IF yes, they do. If not, then I guess not?

    Idk do you have a big dick?

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    Quote Originally Posted by calm View Post
    I am fed up with the duals in my life. I'm beginning to wonder whether duality is all it's cracked up to be because my ESFps seem to cause more headaches than they are worth. I have a dual parent, a dual friend, and a dual love interest and they are all looking like lost causes to me. I have had to deploy a ridiculous amount of forgiveness to tolerate them.

    (...)

    With duals, it's like I'm constantly trying to force them to see the value in me and in our pairing, no matter how much they are benefitting from it.
    The things they value are things I have but refuse to be used for like money. I instead would like to help them make money using their talents and dissuade them from making bad decisions or hanging around the wrong crowd. I do all this expecting nothing in return. And yet, they tend to hurt me more than any other type I have relationships with. And though we have good times together, I end up feeling like I get nothing out of the pairing. They have proven themselves to be selfish, self-serving, and willing to do anything with anyone to meet their needs.
    They don't seem to stand on any moral principles, can't tell which friends or love interests are worth their time and effort, and are constantly using me as an emotional punching bag if not just stringing me along. It has caused more damage to my trust and self esteem than growth in my opinion. I almost wish I was a different type so I wouldn't have such an awful dual type. No matter how much help you give them, they are a bottomless pit and will have you feeling like you put time and effort in for nothing. Then they happily move on to someone who treats them worse but is more loved and appreciated by them than you were.
    You just need to learn to avoid unhealthy people & work on your own boundaries. Unhealthy duals are prob the most dangerous yeah since you get and feel closer to them than to others. So yeah plain learn to avoid red flags and don't be the overgiving one in any relationship. Good luck

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aramas View Post
    Idk do you have a big dick?
    Biggaer than uranus yes

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    Quote Originally Posted by DEAD View Post
    Biggaer than uranus yes
    *Pulsations*

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    ESFps are good people, I don't know why they have such a bad rep. They can be combative but to me its similar to my style of conversation so I will vibe well with them. They are determined people who are good to their friends (typically). Whats wrong with that?

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    Quote Originally Posted by SnatchYourWeave View Post
    Duality is overrated because it’s never a good idea to put all your weakest parts in one person because they’ll use it against you. I see ppl romanticize duality when in reality, this is a person who is opposite of you in every way and there’s some weird social expectation you’re supposed to love them It's best when you have SOME outside help with your superid from more than one person, and the rest is up to you. Anything else is codependent. Even if Duality works, and that's a big IF, the helpfulness is still overrated. Yes, it may help you "integrate," but the results are inferior to when the integration occurs via more than one relationship in your life. One person can never be enough. You’re better off learning Se from SLE. Fi... yuck. Theory goes with ILI learning Fi better from IEE as mirage.
    Ouch, bitter much? I mean I see life as a game we cannot help but play but damn you're out-pessimisting an ILI here. Quite the accomplishment I'd say if I didn't have a heart.

    It actually is a good idea to present your weaknesses to your potential soul mate, but it comes with a pretty damned obvious caveat. See, most everything we want to assume in regards to interpersonal relationships banks on everyone being "well-adjusted" as it were. Y'know, grew up in a nice neighborhood with parents who both loved each other and loved you. Had an actual community as even cavemen would understand it that you grew up in. That's the baseline. Sadly, few if any of us were so lucky to have been granted that blessing. Thus, it's broken people trying to get along with other similarly broken people. If we had a way to codify and work through this shit objectively we'd have already done so. We have not.

    I'd also like to point out that duality kind of meets the ideal of romance novels, but from a male perspective. For example, you can and will find romance genre stuff in Shounen mags. Look for them, they're there, but only if you're actively searching. In them you'll notice a common theme. The girl actively seeks to fulfill the emotional needs of the male and is/will fully commit to him. Why? Because he's worthy of her and she admits it damnit! Either by act and deed or by demonstration of his virtue on the level of what he is in the dark, he's a true man worthy of her. I can expand on this, but that's an essay and I know better than to launch into tirades and essays unprovoked .

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    Jees SEE's are alright Calm. I can see you're really salty about them but you've had awful experiences. You've just been unlucky to meet some shit ones, don't let that Tar them all with one brush. You might be feeling slighted because your dual doesn't seem to be interested in you. If you take socionics too seriously this type of thinking can make you feel like you're flawed. I'm the same, a lot of my duals often don't seem to like me at all. Its a shit thought to think your duals are going around fucking everyone while you're alone. Some people are like dual magnets, they are just attractive (mostly personality) for whatever reason, some aren't. You've had a shit run of things from your parents I get it as i've been there. I just thought to myself that I'd work on myself, try to make the best version of myself that I could. Duals be damned. Really positive relationships happen rarely even with duals and i've met buckets of ISTP's, it absolutely doesn't extend to every person of that type.

    I know a lot of decent SEE's. My mates sister runs a school psychology business and is very successful, shes been nothing but nice and shes fun when you get together for sure. Another mates brother works in corrections developing treatments /studying criminals. He used to smoke and drink and eat a lot of food when younger but has settled into a good family man / dad from what I can tell.

    I know one whos friends with my LIE mate, hes incredibly popular and I always thought he hated me, was pretty cold. He hooked up with some girl and they didn't work out so she got some dudes to break into his house and beat the absolute shit out of him. He was friends with a kickboxer who then in turn beat the shit out of one of these guys. I saw him recently, hes working in the Hifi store and I think life has humbled him a bit. He gave me a discount and I had a chat with him. Hes not quite as cool now that hes older and I think life has humbled him a bit. I get the feeling that after getting beaten up so badly he's changed his ways and now seems like quite a good guy.

    The last one is one I work with. Hes basically just pretty remarkable in every way. He is about 6'4, he looks like a model. Intelligent, ethical, woman are basically addicted to him. You look on his facebook and its basically just him at music concerts surrounded by models. I think hes a bit of a cunt but that's only because he seems to have it all, although I wouldn't want all of his life if I could. Annoyingly though, I cant really fault him at all.
    ENFp (Unsure of Subtype)

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    Excuse me. I was typed as an SEE EsFP by Mr. GUBENKO and I clearly have many incredible qualities. The fact that I was voted to be President proves this. People at my rallies are incredibly inspired by my words and what I have to say. I have lots of money, a beautiful wife, wonderful children, and Barron is always playing with his LEGOs. I am really blessed.

    Thank you and remember to vote for me!!! A vote for BIDEN is a vote for a one-state country.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Donald Trump View Post
    Excuse me. I was typed as an SEE EsFP by Mr. GUBENKO and I clearly have many incredible qualities. The fact that I was voted to be President proves this. People at my rallies are incredibly inspired by my words and what I have to say. I have lots of money, a beautiful wife, wonderful children, and Barron is always playing with his LEGOs. I am really blessed.

    Thank you and remember to vote for me!!! A vote for BIDEN is a vote for a one-state country.
    Fucking hell Trump. If you're SEE then even I can't defend them any more.
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    Does ESFp now mean person who is hot and wastes all your money? Cause that sounds like terrible analysis. In fact, I kind of expect SEE to be a common mistype, as Se is kind of strategic thinking. Hypothetically they should be really good generals, and would solve all or some of my problems with stocks. Depends on if I'm a mistyped ILI. Otherwise we ought to have good discussion on the stock market, and methods of making money. Hypothetically I have a guy in mind. He's uh. Probably actually my activity. I'm probably going to get relatively pedantic on him though, as he's damn bad at explaining things in a way that'll satisfy my want for solid internal narrative. He posted an article where the title says Florida is allowing people to shoot looters. Then I said if they're allowing looters to be hunted that's bad. Then he said no it's good. This went on for a while. I knew it was probably not that looters were being allowed to be hunted, but castle defense was being extended to businesses. However, I'm not reading that article. I tried to get it out of him, but bruh. No. Eventually an hour later, he clarifies. I told him to lead with that, cause all of chat was angry at him, not just me. Sounds like Ti polr to me, or being oblivious on why people don't understand what you wrote.

    I cut out the rant on why orange man is not SEE. He's probably EIE, my lookalike. If he is SLE, then I'm probably SEE. I said why elsewhere.

    Other take. My old manager could've been SEE, and he's got good math. We worked REALLY well together. Uh. He's also very charismatic. I am too, but he's selling sand in the desert. This area now buys a tone of seafood when it's on discount and just in general.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phrenology

    An optimist - does not get discouraged under any circumstances. Life upheavals and stressful events only toughen him and make more confident. He likes to laugh and entertain people. Enters contact with someone by involving him with a humorous remark. His humor is often sly and contain hints and double meanings. Easily enters into arguments and bets, especially if he is challenged. When arguing his points is often ironic, ridicules the views of his opponent. His irritability and hot temper may be unpleasant to others. However, he himself is not perceptive of this and believes that he is simply exchanging opinions.

    http://www.wikisocion.net/en/index.php?title=LIE_Profile_by_Gulenko

  40. #120
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    Does ESFp now mean person who is hot and wastes all your money?
    They tend to be quite cautios money wasters if they can not live off luxurious life like Mr Trumpet. Like when my sis who is SEE really makes an effort to not to over spend her budget at Monopoly but yeah they can waste money especially on their friends and children (altough they treat their kids as their buddies at times) .
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