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Thread: LIE/SEE Activity Relationships

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    Default LIE/SEE Activity Relationships

    Does anyone have any experience or thoughts on LIE/SEE relationships of activation? I would appreciate any insight. In my experience, all of the elements for success are present, however I think the main problem is that each could benefit from our partners possessing the restraint of their introverted counterparts.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ENJoymENT View Post
    Does anyone have any experience or thoughts on LIE/SEE relationships of activation? I would appreciate any insight. In my experience, all of the elements for success are present, however I think the main problem is that each could benefit from our partners possessing the restraint of their introverted counterparts.
    I have interacted with some SEEs, both male and female, and upon meeting them, I almost instantly like them. I get this feeling when I'm around them that we could have fun until the cows come home.* However, my feelings don't translate into actions. While I am trying to get their attention, they are trying to get everyone else's attention, and this makes me feel like I'm less important to them than I'd like to be. And so I don't have a lot of experience hanging out with them.

    The main problem, as I see it, is that both of us want to be the main act on stage, and there just isn't enough room there for both of us.

    *SEE @woofwoofl described the SEE-LIE relationship as two people driving a car which has two accelerators and no brakes.
    I should mention that, with the SEE women, no matter how attractive they are, I don't really want to have sex with them so much as I want to take them to a ball game. There's a reason it's called Activity.


    While writing this post, I was trying to imagine what it would be like to have sex with an SEE, and I concluded that it would probably be like having sex with a very attractive person who isn't really there.
    I much prefer sex with ESIs who are very attractive people who are really there.

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    LIEs and SEEs are very open to each other feedbacks. Once a solid bond is formed, it is hard to break. Main problems from LIE's side is generally that SEEs arent reliable as much as LIEs expect from another. SEE may not fulfill their promises, not return to their calls, came late, take a break and LIEs register this as them not giving a damn about them. However, they can easily make amends and forget.

    Another pitfall as in any activation relation, they can ignore each other's need for polr and cause other one to take some steps to override their polr. For example, SEE can make suggestions in a way that exhausts
    LIE when they are sick and actually need a rest and both wouldnt see anything wrong until too late.

    From 3rd person view's there are other problems, but it depends on who is looking at.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post


    While writing this post, I was trying to imagine what it would be like to have sex with an SEE, and I concluded that it would probably be like having sex with a very attractive person who isn't really there.
    I much prefer sex with ESIs who are very attractive people who are really there.
    “LOL” doesn’t begin to describe my reaction to this comment. It’s kind of mean… however I believe you mean it in the sense of the true soul connection being missing on some level, as opposed to the other person being hollow. And in that sense, I think you might be onto something in identifying the difference in the relationships of LIE/SEE vs. LIE/ESI. In the SEE’s defence, I think that they may, in return, describe SEE/LIE sex as the LIE being too intense (vs. their more dreamy counterpart ILI). So in that sense, SEE/ILI sex would consist of neither one “being there” (LOL) because the SEE is preoccupied with their own bodily experience, and the ILI is lost in their own thoughts—yet being introverted does not also have to deal with the overwhelming need to voice them and thus they’re a better fit (no pun). In contrast, with LIE/ESI sex, both would be focused on/lost in “the connection” (ESI more with the physical, LIE more with the psychological). I’m just guessing… no experience dating a dual.

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    Quote Originally Posted by myresearch View Post
    LIEs and SEEs are very open to each other feedbacks. Once a solid bond is formed, it is hard to break. Main problems from LIE's side is generally that SEEs arent reliable as much as LIEs expect from another. SEE may not fulfill their promises, not return to their calls, came late, take a break and LIEs register this as them not giving a damn about them. However, they can easily make amends and forget.
    I totally agree they’d be very open to each other’s feedback…although I think LIE’s feedback would often come across as being too detailed/exhaustive, and the SEE’s feedback as missing some essential details. However I’m really conflicted on your statement about LIE’s viewing SEE’s as unreliable. I totally get why you wrote that…I initially viewed a SEE I was very close to (I’ve had 2 LTRs with SEEs), as flaky because he would say “yes” to multiple social engagements, and then end up being a no-show to many of them (funnily enough, “no-show” was a nickname for him by some people). I initially thought this was flaky because I believed he was being shallow—waiting to see which social activity looked like it would have the most to offer him in the moment, and then just allowing himself to be carried by the excitement of the moment while blowing everyone else off. It was only after several months when we discussed this tendency in depth, and I pointed out that he often ended up hurting people who were actually more important in his life in favour of some more superficial acquaintances who ended up enticing him to bail on others like a siren. But I learned he wasn’t doing any of this out of flakiness at all. He said it was overwhelming to him to purposely have to put value on someone over anyone else, and then have to disappoint and let anyone down, and so he just said “yes” to everything and then didn’t choose, but rather let the evening happen as if he was a victim to it. He just couldn’t see the value in planning ahead to that extent… although he was very receptive to hearing me out, and eventually got in the habit of picking one thing and committing to it. TBH he seemed relieved once he got the hang of it— sort of like I gave him permission to be an asshole sometimes and say “No” LOL.

    However the reason I am conflicted about your statement that the LIE would view the SEE as unreliable, is because he often saw ME that way. If we were ever meeting up somewhere, he would be 20 minutes early and I would always be late because I would try to get “just one more thing done” first. He would always wake up 1-2 hours before he had to leave for work in order to relax, whereas I saw that as an inefficient use of time and would thus only ever leave myself as little time as was absolutely necessary. It totally stressed him out if we were heading to the airport, since he wanted to be there 3 hours early! I think this is due to S versus N… I would mentally compute how long each task would take and come up with a pretty realistic timeframe in my head. But to be honest, I did sometimes cut it too close and caused him more stress than he would have ever caused himself. Basically with respect to time management, he was overly cautious, and I was way too reckless. I’m guessing that being a sensor made him more reliable in some respects, as he would in most cases adhere to the generally acceptable way to do things—being early, cleaning out his car, regular lawn maintenance etc. He would always answer his phone no matter who it was, whereas I would view my phone ringing as an inefficient interruption of my time or an ambush to force me to be social according to someone else’s agenda, and often not answer it. I guess in this respect it is a good match to level each other out, because each type is a little extreme, but in opposite directions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ENJoymENT View Post
    I totally agree they’d be very open to each other’s feedback…although I think LIE’s feedback would often come across as being too detailed/exhaustive, and the SEE’s feedback as missing some essential details. However I’m really conflicted on your statement about LIE’s viewing SEE’s as unreliable. I totally get why you wrote that…I initially viewed a SEE I was very close to (I’ve had 2 LTRs with SEEs), as flaky because he would say “yes” to multiple social engagements, and then end up being a no-show to many of them (funnily enough, “no-show” was a nickname for him by some people). I initially thought this was flaky because I believed he was being shallow—waiting to see which social activity looked like it would have the most to offer him in the moment, and then just allowing himself to be carried by the excitement of the moment while blowing everyone else off. It was only after several months when we discussed this tendency in depth, and I pointed out that he often ended up hurting people who were actually more important in his life in favour of some more superficial acquaintances who ended up enticing him to bail on others like a siren. But I learned he wasn’t doing any of this out of flakiness at all. He said it was overwhelming to him to purposely have to put value on someone over anyone else, and then have to disappoint and let anyone down, and so he just said “yes” to everything and then didn’t choose, but rather let the evening happen as if he was a victim to it. He just couldn’t see the value in planning ahead to that extent… although he was very receptive to hearing me out, and eventually got in the habit of picking one thing and committing to it. TBH he seemed relieved once he got the hang of it— sort of like I gave him permission to be an asshole sometimes and say “No” LOL.
    This matches with my observations and they can be sometimes late because they said yes to going different events in a day and sometimes they may not show up if it is too late and if other person is waiting in a sense.

    I am a bit surprised with bolded part though. I never had a similar conversation with any of them. But SEE know if they value someone over another one. It is more about what they want than its them to please everyone. Lets see if he is gonna say No or not after some good time.

    Quote Originally Posted by ENJoymENT View Post
    However the reason I am conflicted about your statement that the LIE would view the SEE as unreliable, is because he often saw ME that way. If we were ever meeting up somewhere, he would be 20 minutes early and I would always be late because I would try to get “just one more thing done” first. He would always wake up 1-2 hours before he had to leave for work in order to relax, whereas I saw that as an inefficient use of time and would thus only ever leave myself as little time as was absolutely necessary. It totally stressed him out if we were heading to the airport, since he wanted to be there 3 hours early! I think this is due to S versus N… I would mentally compute how long each task would take and come up with a pretty realistic timeframe in my head. But to be honest, I did sometimes cut it too close and caused him more stress than he would have ever caused himself. Basically with respect to time management, he was overly cautious, and I was way too reckless. I’m guessing that being a sensor made him more reliable in some respects, as he would in most cases adhere to the generally acceptable way to do things—being early, cleaning out his car, regular lawn maintenance etc.
    Lots of SEEs can be late, you can find in resources if you cannot I can send. But some of them arent for sure and they generally dont want to wait. Airport thing is tricky a bit imo because it can change lots of things if things go wrong, so his extra stress make sense.

    I am picturing punctual SEEs for this. For example, one SEE has been done professional sport as a kid, teen, and her schools were distant from her home so she had to wake up early to catch the school bus. She was a good student. So combo of those things require diligence. Then did lots of sports, parachuting, skiing, snowboarding, surfing etc. Also goes to gym, pilates, occasionally to dancing classes. She has a regular job that requires her to travel at times. So you can understand how much energy and time require to fulfill all those things. Hence one can say she is much more responsible, diligent, punctual, conscientious according to average person.

    But she doesnt perceive all relations at equal level. She can see who is she closer to and she has an idea who other people are close to, I can give examples if you want so. She doesnt say yes to all events, can say no, but again, she may prefer to spend time with people that seems more fun at that moment, eventhough those people are not going to be permanent in her life. There are always breaks in her friendships. What I mean is she doesnt regularly spend time with specific people only most of the time for years. She hates when other people are late, but I have a reputation of being late and we make arrangements according to that, like me calling her when I am on the way rather than planning to meet at X time. So we dont have problems based on this, maybe you can find similar arrangements like that.


    Quote Originally Posted by ENJoymENT View Post
    He would always answer his phone no matter who it was, whereas I would view my phone ringing as an inefficient interruption of my time or an ambush to force me to be social according to someone else’s agenda, and often not answer it. I guess in this respect it is a good match to level each other out, because each type is a little extreme, but in opposite directions.
    I never met with a SEE like that tbh. If someone did, maybe they can answer.

    According to my observations, if they dont want to open the phone, then they dont and they dont feel obliged to open it and it is a general thing. I think thats totally fine, I am like that also and I know lots of people like that regardless of type.

    I actually dont find this feature of them as problematic in LIE,SEE relationship much. Both are generally busy and understand that other person may have its own life. I wrote that that for extreme case that I recently observed, so it doesnt reflect general situation.

     
    My mother (LIE) is sick, she is gonna be fine but she didnt work after this sickness thing for a few months. She had to stay at home, doing nothing and that is like a recipe for disaster for her. Before the sickness, years ago, she also try to quit work once, and as she said, she overly thought who calls her or not and who meets with her and not in that period, then she start to work again, I didnt witness her during that time.

    In this period, she extremely got pissed and hurt at SEE aunt because she doesnt open her phones. She thought SEE aunt didnt give damn about her, she says anything could happen to her, there might be emergency. But I think SEE aunt knows that she is gonna be fine and I am here if something happens and she has two kids and life and dont feel obliged to open up. My mother is oldest sibling, she and SEE aunt have this special bond that other sisters of her recognize. Some think she is favoring her, I think they are right, but IEI aunt had this rivalry, competition thing with SEE aunt. In this period, she and my mother got closer like they never had before, just because she opened her calls and my mother discovered that she actually enjoys to talk with her a lot and the fact that she is there.

    After a few months, my mother started to some work at home to keep her occupied. SEE aunt wanted to trade some of her real estate with her with a lower price than she would sell to a stranger and my mother thought that SEE loves her else she wouldnt do this. Trade didnt happen due to other things btw, but her thoughts stand. And since she is more occupied at the moment, she doesnt think about calls. There just seems to be a bit shift, she extremely appreciates IEI aunt, her attitude towards them are more even, I dont know if it is permanent or not.


    I think how types perceive each other at difficult times matters so I think this might be a problem for specific situations like that.
    Last edited by myresearch; 07-30-2022 at 10:43 PM.

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    My SEE answers all calls to his phone. Every new call is more important than IRL conversation or even another phone call. Always has to get the new call. 24/7, not just business hours. He's been like that forever. In the old days, the wall phone would ring and he'd just answer like it was no big deal.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ENJoymENT View Post
    I initially viewed a SEE I was very close to as flaky because he would say “yes” to multiple social engagements, and then end up being a no-show to many of them (funnily enough, “no-show” was a nickname for him by some people). I initially thought this was flaky because I believed he was being shallow—waiting to see which social activity looked like it would have the most to offer him in the moment, and then just allowing himself to be carried by the excitement of the moment while blowing everyone else off.
    I think a lot of people would always invite him to their social functions in order for him to “play his role” of livening up the party, sort of as his (perceived) price of admission. That’s somewhat of a pessimistic view, however I became quite protective of him over this. At my ILI/SLI friends’ wedding, my SEE was trying to liven it up by jumping on stage with the band and pretending to play the saxophone… I have it on video where he comes back to our table to grab a sip of beer and my beloved EIE brother (the “puppet master”) came up behind him and yelled like a drill sargent: “you get back there… get back out there!” It’s hilarious but, startled, he immediately put down his beer and ran back to the dance floor grabbing people to make them dance in order to make the wedding a wild success. I know that the typing of celebrities is controversial because we label them without actually knowing them, but I’ve noticed the same phenomenon occurring in the lives of some whom I consider to also be SEE: Elvis, Michael Hutchence, Jennifer Lawrence, Freddie Mercury. Everyone wants Jennifer Lawrence to “liven up the party” with her unconventional antics—tripping on the red carpet to entertain us, Elvis was always expected to adhere to an impossibly exhausting work schedule in order to go out there and make everyone in his entourage rich…and it’s also evident in Freddie Mercury‘s lyrics from The Show Must Go On: “Inside my heart is breaking, my makeup may be flaking but my smile still stays on… I’ll top the bill, I’ll overkill, I have to find the will to carry on…On with the Show!” That responsibility for others’ enjoyment is exhausting when you think of it – everyone always wanting a piece of you and always trying to be so nice to everyone. I think it was the bassist from INXS who remarked that Michael would have to do interview after interview in each town they toured in, and always answer to the fans wanting a piece of him, whereas after a show HE could walk right through the crowd and no one would even recognize or ask anything of him.

    There was an instance when some new acquaintance from work wanted my SEE to help pour the concrete for a patio he was building in another town a week before Christmas— which would have meant he would not get to spend very much time with his kids or family. I was irate over that—not for myself, but for him—telling him “WTF you hardly even know this guy, why would he even ask you, and why would you say yes?” It became evident that this issue continuously presented us with a quandary because every time someone wanted us to do something for them, we began asking ourselves if WE would ever consider ask this of THEM (OR anyone else), and it was astonishing that the answer was always a resounding “No!”. This became a kind of watershed moment for us as a couple, because we then seriously evaluated all of our relationships with our friends and family, and realized that in every instance, we always paid or did more for them than they did for us. I used to host Christmas for 20 people year after year, my ex-husband‘s brother and his wife left one of their kids with me to watch for a summer, then did the same thing with another one of their kids two years later (when we had more kids, and she as a teacher had the summer off to relax in their golf course community clubhouse). I would never in a million years pawn one of my kids off on a relative for a couple of months without them ever having been invited, or at the very least asking the female if it was OK with her since her partner was out-of-town for work every week—I just would not be so bold or have so little pride as to impose in that way. I don’t regret it though, because to this day my kids are super close to their cousins.

    We as a couple began to resent covering more of the costs than anyone else in any extended family trip or outing, and taking the social burden upon ourselves to try to entertain everyone rather than just sitting back and leaving the slack for others to pick up. To be fair, no one forced us to be that way…perhaps we placed this burden on ourselves for some reason, and likely the fault is our own for not just learning how to say “No!”. I DO think that in my case, Se HA has something to do with it, because to say “I wouldn’t be able to handle 6 kids on my own all summer, so I’m sorry I have to say No” would be admitting weakness in reluctantly being backed into the corner of failure against my will. There’s definitely a bit of martyrdom coming into play there, because I wasn’t going to give my LSE sister-in-law that satisfaction of letting her know that I said No because I couldn’t handle it, after the 3 adults arranged this behind my back… I just hoped that she felt guilty while she was lounging around her golf course community with 2 kids for the summer while I had 6, and hopefully realizing that I was a better mother. (Jeez this analysis is becoming pretty fucked up!!) The joke was on me though, because since I didn’t complain when she did it with her oldest child, she did it again with her middle child two years later! I do admit I admire her in some respects for empowering herself through her Si—namely when her husband admitted that he would come home from work and watch their 3 kids and make dinner because she proclaimed she couldn’t function well as a mother after work unless she had some time to reset and look after herself by working out and before coming home for the evening. Meanwhile for MY self care, my PolR Si combined with my Se HA instead had me pushing a double stroller while walking 2 dogs and forcing the 3 oldest kids to hike beside me so that I wouldn’t have to ask anyone else for help.

    There IS an underlying frisson of resentment towards people who are supposed to love us, yet nonetheless have the gall to keep asking when it is blatantly obvious that the requests only and always go in one direction. It’s stressful to be pushed into that uncomfortable position of ultimately having to say “No” when you innately want to pull more than your weight and to please; I used to just put up with it, but now I protect myself more. Perhaps it’s a gamma or FI thing—where it’s super important to us to make sure that we are not being a burden on anyone else, and to overcompensate in our generosity so as to leave ZERO doubt or room for misunderstanding on anyone that we are NOT freeloading. Even more deeply, perhaps it’s an insecurity issue where we feel we have to offer something extra in order to be included or valued. Honestly Covid was kind of a vacation for us socially ha ha.

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    @myresearch Regarding this:

    He said it was overwhelming to him to purposely have to put value on someone over anyone else, and then have to disappoint and let anyone down,

    In retrospect, I think you’re right and it’s possible that I may have projected this reasoning onto him. The issue came up quite early on in our relationship when he was scattered and erratically missing things. When I took issue, he was flustered trying to explain himself…and it would often take him quite a while to come up with a (seemingly vague) reason for his actions sometimes. Not deceitful, just never realizing the purpose of needing to have sound reasons for his leisure choices. In other words it’s quite possible he didn’t have a good reason for doing one thing over another. Whereas with myself and leading Te, I’m just WAITING for anyone to ask me why I’m doing something a particular way, because I’ll have 3 or 4 reasons at the ready to explain exactly why. A more accurate description of his reasons for continually overextending himself is that he said he felt like everyone wanted a piece of him, and he became a chicken without a head…and thus him not showing up could have been his way of exerting control and rebelling. Sort of like “it’s impossible for me to please everyone, so fuck all of you!” When you think of it, it is kind of a bold (and likely effective) way of lowering others’ expectations of you! I think that Gammas might be prone to self sabotage rather than asking for help, or admitting that we can’t manage something on our own. That’s one thing I did admire about my LII ex-husband. I found his non-conformist ways liberating to behold—he was definitely not a people pleaser, and was likely all the happier for it. As I’ve gotten older, I’m trying to be more authentic and honest, because when I silently bottle it all up and become passive aggressive as a result, it just ends up hurting me and others more anyways as opposed to just calmly stating your boundaries before it gets to that point.

    Regarding him answering his phone every time it rang: he used to have his own company, so not answering the phone meant potentially losing business so perhaps it became a habit. I have no doubt that always being reachable by cell phone initially gave him FOMO for a time. After his own business, he did shift work and therefore missed out on a lot of things because he was out of town, so socially
    , answering his phone became his way to know everything about everyone and always wanting to be in the loop. He eventually became a little resentful of the constant technology—as we all have. In the 60s, Andy Warhol said “In the future, everyone will be world-famous for 15 minutes” whereas NOW the utopian objective people aspire to is to get 15 minutes of anonymity.
    Last edited by ENJoymENT; 07-31-2022 at 12:37 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by crazymaisy View Post
    Every new call is more important than IRL conversation or even another phone call. Always has to get the new call.

    SEE hidden agenda: he just has “to know” who’s calling, why, what’s up…what’s he missing out on??

    I think the oversaturation and barrage of technology constantly interrupting real life is a great self correcting mechanism to cure the SEE (or ANYONE) of FOMO. It’s taught all of us to set boundaries and not jump every time there is a notification. Speaking of notifications, he used to have every single sports app pinging notifications at all hours— if a pro athlete sprained his ankle or a coach got traded etc. In my opinion, THAT kind of information is something one can make a concerted effort to check up on at a more convenient time, but to each their own.
    Last edited by ENJoymENT; 07-30-2022 at 11:51 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ENJoymENT View Post
    There was an instance when some new acquaintance from work wanted my SEE to help pour the concrete for a patio he was building in another town a week before Christmas— which would have meant he would not get to spend very much time with his kids or family. I was irate over that—not for myself, but for him—telling him “WTF you hardly even know this guy, why would he even ask you, and why would you say yes?” It became evident that this issue continuously presented us with a quandary because every time someone wanted us to do something for them, we began asking ourselves if WE would ever consider ask this of THEM (OR anyone else), and it was astonishing that the answer was always a resounding “No!”. This became a kind of watershed moment for us as a couple, because we then seriously evaluated all of our relationships with our friends and family, and realized that in every instance, we always paid or did more for them than they did for us. I used to host Christmas for 20 people year after year, my ex-husband‘s brother and his wife left one of their kids with me to watch for a summer, then did the same thing with another one of their kids two years later (when we had more kids, and she as a teacher had the summer off to relax in their golf course community clubhouse). I would never in a million years pawn one of my kids off on a relative for a couple of months without them ever having been invited, or at the very least asking the female if it was OK with her since her partner was out-of-town for work every week—I just would not be so bold or have so little pride as to impose in that way. I don’t regret it though, because to this day my kids are super close to their cousins.
    SEE's Fi+ creative is more oriented over helping others. I know LIEs can also help others with the Te, so I can see how this similarity can cause the duo to overextend each other.

    My father can be SxE or EIE, not sure about his type, since he was the only one of its kind of person. Nowdays people have X k followers on social media, back in the day, he was like that irl. He was actually active in politics, had some kind of a role in nondominant political party for some time, regardless of his political groups, lots of his social groups break apart after his death since he was mending all the conflicts btw them. So he can fit the politician SEE archetype but as I said, I can also see him as other types.

    My mother (LIE) was very resentful because of his attitude to people. She thought he lets himself getting advantaged due to his generous and helpful nature. Also she never understand why she wanted to spend with all these kind of people so much. She prefered some one on one time, but that didnt happen. I think LIE needs more of ESI's more clear cut of view of outsiders and insiders (Fi- base). Romance wise I only observed SEE female-ILI male relations of gamma quadra. ILIs generally dont have much friends or activities, so I think they benefit from SEEs attitude. The differences btw dual couples make them more complimentary.



    Quote Originally Posted by ENJoymENT View Post
    We as a couple began to resent covering more of the costs than anyone else in any extended family trip or outing, and taking the social burden upon ourselves to try to entertain everyone rather than just sitting back and leaving the slack for others to pick up. To be fair, no one forced us to be that way…perhaps we placed this burden on ourselves for some reason, and likely the fault is our own for not just learning how to say “No!”. I DO think that in my case, Se HA has something to do with it, because to say “I wouldn’t be able to handle 6 kids on my own all summer, so I’m sorry I have to say No” would be admitting weakness in reluctantly being backed into the corner of failure against my will. There’s definitely a bit of martyrdom coming into play there, because I wasn’t going to give my LSE sister-in-law that satisfaction of letting her know that I said No because I couldn’t handle it, after the 3 adults arranged this behind my back… I just hoped that she felt guilty while she was lounging around her golf course community with 2 kids for the summer while I had 6, and hopefully realizing that I was a better mother. (Jeez this analysis is becoming pretty fucked up!!) The joke was on me though, because since I didn’t complain when she did it with her oldest child, she did it again with her middle child two years later! I do admit I admire her in some respects for empowering herself through her Si—namely when her husband admitted that he would come home from work and watch their 3 kids and make dinner because she proclaimed she couldn’t function well as a mother after work unless she had some time to reset and look after herself by working out and before coming home for the evening. Meanwhile for MY self care, my PolR Si combined with my Se HA instead had me pushing a double stroller while walking 2 dogs and forcing the 3 oldest kids to hike beside me so that I wouldn’t have to ask anyone else for help.

    There IS an underlying frisson of resentment towards people who are supposed to love us, yet nonetheless have the gall to keep asking when it is blatantly obvious that the requests only and always go in one direction. It’s stressful to be pushed into that uncomfortable position of ultimately having to say “No” when you innately want to pull more than your weight and to please; I used to just put up with it, but now I protect myself more. Perhaps it’s a gamma or FI thing—where it’s super important to us to make sure that we are not being a burden on anyone else, and to overcompensate in our generosity so as to leave ZERO doubt or room for misunderstanding on anyone that we are NOT freeloading. Even more deeply, perhaps it’s an insecurity issue where we feel we have to offer something extra in order to be included or valued. Honestly Covid was kind of a vacation for us socially ha ha.
    I think you can say no in polite ways like lots of people, you dont have to over explain yourself, even I am busy is enough. When people dont ever do things that you do, they never know what kind of an effort it takes, so sadly it is not even appreciated as much. Regardless of type, I have seen it over and over again that once a person stops taking some responsibilities, it becomes a problem initially but after some time, people find a way to fill those gaps. But if there isnt any gap, then most people wouldnt own it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by myresearch View Post
    I think how types perceive each other at difficult times matters so I think this might be a problem for specific situations like that.
    I agree… and very interesting with your LIE mother’s vulnerability from her physical illness being further compounded by fact that Si is her vulnerable psychological function, thereby creating the perfect storm of physical AND psychological vulnerability. Si PolR creates a feeling of inadequacy, thus making her fall from being the stalwart oldest sibling who always has everything under control even that more traumatic. Furthermore, SEEs are typically very willing to say yes and help ANYONE out, so the fact that in this instance your mother’s SEE sister’s seeming unavailability was likely doubly hurtful. Your LIE mother likely thought that it’s rare for her to ask anyone for help, so therefore in this instance where she was vulnerable, there was a deep sense of betrayal when (in her opinion) people she counted on did not automatically make her a priority. Her turning to her IEI sister instead was likely because she felt betrayed by SEE, and was thus determined to create/bolster attachments she could rely on while vulnerable. In your SEE Aunt’s defense, I’ve seen SEEs firsthand become extra squirrelly when forced to witness people they are very close to and respect deal with illness. It’s almost like they put up barriers as protection and refuse to face it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by myresearch View Post
    SEE's Fi+ creative is more oriented over helping others. I know LIEs can also help others with the Te, so I can see how this similarity can cause the duo to overextend each other…..I think you can say no in polite ways like lots of people, you dont have to over explain yourself, even I am busy is enough.
    Yes sometimes I would try to protect SEE from being asked to help all the time by others, because he would always want to say yes. As for LIEs overextending, I would often feel guilty about putting in the same amount of money as other family members for trips/events when they clearly had less and/or carried some debt, and I didn’t want to come across as selfish because it was family, and so I would pay for more. After years of this though, I would at times feel a little used at having to maintain that pattern and felt trapped, because to suddenly cease doing that would seem like a slight on my part. My solution was to erect boundaries and socialize in the activities a lot less—for example no longer being the sucker to host Christmas for 20 people every year (this new attitude kind of corresponded with Covid, so it didn’t really seem intentional from the outside). Not much of a solution, I know. And you are right it shouldn’t necessitate over-thinking, I should just say no. But I feel that these situations unwittingly back me into a corner where I am either 1) forced into making an issue out of it and coming across as unwilling or selfish by saying No, and thereby disappointing others, or else 2) do it begrudgingly to people please, and then end up feeling resentment. I think I just suck at Fe and what are for others basic social skills

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    Quote Originally Posted by ENJoymENT View Post
    I agree… and very interesting with your LIE mother’s vulnerability from her physical illness being further compounded by fact that Si is her vulnerable psychological function, thereby creating the perfect storm of physical AND psychological vulnerability. Si PolR creates a feeling of inadequacy, thus making her fall from being the stalwart oldest sibling who always has everything under control even that more traumatic. Furthermore, SEEs are typically very willing to say yes and help ANYONE out, so the fact that in this instance your mother’s SEE sister’s seeming unavailability was likely doubly hurtful. Your LIE mother likely thought that it’s rare for her to ask anyone for help, so therefore in this instance where she was vulnerable, there was a deep sense of betrayal when (in her opinion) people she counted on did not automatically make her a priority. Her turning to her IEI sister instead was likely because she felt betrayed by SEE, and was thus determined to create/bolster attachments she could rely on while vulnerable. In your SEE Aunt’s defense, I’ve seen SEEs firsthand become extra squirrelly when forced to witness people they are very close to and respect deal with illness. It’s almost like they put up barriers as protection and refuse to face it.
    Oh yeah. Another thing in SEE aunt's defense, my mother didnt call her to ask for help but to talk a bit and share what she is going through in a sense. But as you said SEEs can have difficulties in respect to deal with illness as I also read in some descriptions. But this is the only time I observed. There was one thing that required lots of efforts that they do once in a year for whole family and this time SEE aunt took care of it. So she actually helped. And she was there during and after the surgery. Stayed with us for a few days. They also talked, she just didnt open her calls at some times.

    My mother has some difficulty doing nothing and resting regardless of this sickness thing. So she over think certain things in her mind. Sickness definitely makes her vulnerable in a way that she doesnt want to show other people. Interestingly, I havent seen her sick before, not even with runny nose. But this whole thing made me recognized that she actually doesnt feel tired or sick even she is. She traveled more than 5 hours, then inspected two very big company by walking too much inside them just because she was bored doing nothing and want to be out doing some work. And that is even tiresome for a regular healthy human, under chemo that is too much. But she cannot register it on her own, she cannot read her own body's internal state. So right now I think, she probably got sick in the past but maybe didnt register it and act it as it is before.

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    Quote Originally Posted by myresearch View Post
    Oh yeah. Another thing in SEE aunt's defense, my mother didnt call her to ask for help but to talk a bit and share what she is going through in a sense. But as you said SEEs can have difficulties in respect to deal with illness…There was one thing that required lots of efforts that they do once in a year for whole family and this time SEE aunt took care of it. So she actually helped.
    Awwwwe for some reason I feel protective of the SEE Aunt! Haha. And OF COURSE your mother didn’t specifically ask for help, but then feels resentment over the fact that no one helped! Classic overly sensitive martyr LIE. Hopefully with Covid making taking things a little more slowly the new norm, that also helped her to slow down a bit and yet not feel lazy.

    Hopefully as you mentioned, she will fully recover from this illness, and more importantly will teach her a few important lessons for her later years when she will have no choice but to rely on others’ help. We all still have a lot to learn!

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    Quote Originally Posted by ENJoymENT View Post
    Yes sometimes I would try to protect SEE from being asked to help all the time by others, because he would always want to say yes. As for LIEs overextending, I would often feel guilty about putting in the same amount of money as other family members for trips/events when they clearly had less and/or carried some debt, and I didn’t want to come across as selfish because it was family, and so I would pay for more. After years of this though, I would at times feel a little used at having to maintain that pattern and felt trapped, because to suddenly cease doing that would seem like a slight on my part. My solution was to erect boundaries and socialize in the activities a lot less—for example no longer being the sucker to host Christmas for 20 people every year (this new attitude kind of corresponded with Covid, so it didn’t really seem intentional from the outside). Not much of a solution, I know. And you are right it shouldn’t necessitate over-thinking, I should just say no. But I feel that these situations unwittingly back me into a corner where I am either 1) forced into making an issue out of it and coming across as unwilling or selfish by saying No, and thereby disappointing others, or else 2) do it begrudgingly to people please, and then end up feeling resentment. I think I just suck at Fe and what are for others basic social skills
    I think putting some boundaries is a good solution. If people can register saying No as a selfish thing in this aspect, I think they can even start to find whats given less in time.

    Similar kind of things happened in my mother's family. She and SEE aunt pay more for activities, events. They also bought some expensive gifts to some when they are due to marry. Those kind of things seen by others as a duty and as a normal thing because they have more money while others dont or in debt. SEE aunt have a bit tricky relations with some of her siblings. My mother was a bit frustrated with others because they cannot see that SEE aunt is actually helping by spending her money although she doesnt have to.

    I dont see spending more money as a problem. But when it is registered as mandatory by others, then it becomes a problem. I think resentment comes from that because it isnt mandatory in reality. Hence I find it better to show these kind of things in action time to time.

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    I have spoken to @woofwoofl and have heard that description from him. I find it accurate. I have also dated an LIE. My best relationship to date, but there is very little rest. I'd do it again being older and more mature. Back then it was like we were both the stars of our own movie and that sort of pulled us away, albeit not on bad terms.

    I enjoyed the ease of communication, the quickness to solve issues between us. The fiery passionate moments. Was all grand but I see why duality works better in theory. I have yet to meet a female ILI irl but it'll be interesting to see the differences.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CptLandhawk View Post
    I have spoken to @woofwoofl and have heard that description from him. I find it accurate. I have also dated an LIE. My best relationship to date, but there is very little rest. I'd do it again being older and more mature. Back then it was like we were both the stars of our own movie and that sort of pulled us away, albeit not on bad terms.

    I enjoyed the ease of communication, the quickness to solve issues between us. The fiery passionate moments. Was all grand but I see why duality works better in theory. I have yet to meet a female ILI irl but it'll be interesting to see the differences.
    There are huge differences between female LIEs and female ILIs, all in the direction which would make ILIs more compatible partners for SEEs than LIEs would be.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    There are huge differences between female LIEs and female ILIs, all in the direction which would make ILIs more compatible partners for SEEs than LIEs would be.
    Oh of that I'm sure, but its one thing to read about it and another to live it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CptLandhawk View Post
    I'd do it again being older and more mature. Back then it was like we were both the stars of our own movie and that sort of pulled us away, albeit not on bad terms.

    I enjoyed the ease of communication, the quickness to solve issues between us. The fiery passionate moments. Was all grand but I see why duality works better in theory.
    I so very much agree with everything you said. I think that substituting duality for activation would enable us both to take our foot off the gas a bit so to speak, from the resulting relief of not having a partner who is constantly firing us up, but rather is drawing us out of the spotlight (for our own good!). Being with an introverted partner would likely extinguish the dynamic of constantly feeling compelled to compete for the “lead dog” position. This might then enable us to become more balanced, and content with mellowing out just a little bit!

    It IS a little confusing though—because I previously believed that having another extroverted partner who would willingly take the spotlight half of the time, would then enable BOTH OF US to sit back and be calmer. But I guess that’s why it it is called activation—because it compels us to respond to our partner’s extroversion in kind—as opposed to contentedly surrendering. Sort of akin to how playing tennis with someone who is exactly equal to your own strengths would be more stressful than engaging with a partner in 2 different activities where each one of you is CLEARLY better at and dominant in one of them… so you can therefore both just relax and allow each to shine in their respective specialties.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ENJoymENT View Post
    I so very much agree with everything you said. I think that substituting duality for activation would enable us both to take our foot off the gas a bit so to speak, from the resulting relief of not having a partner who is constantly firing us up, but rather is drawing us out of the spotlight (for our own good!). Being with an introverted partner would likely extinguish the dynamic of constantly feeling compelled to compete for the “lead dog” position. This might then enable us to become more balanced, and content with mellowing out just a little bit!

    It IS a little confusing though—because I previously believed that having another extroverted partner who would willingly take the spotlight half of the time, would then enable BOTH OF US to sit back and be calmer. But I guess that’s why it it is called activation—because it compels us to respond to our partner’s extroversion in kind—as opposed to contentedly surrendering. Sort of akin to how playing tennis with someone who is exactly equal to your own strengths would be more stressful than engaging with a partner in 2 different activities where each one of you is CLEARLY better at and dominant in one of them… so you can therefore both just relax and allow each to shine in their respective specialties.
    For sure. I recall that sort of itch to action happening in the relationship. I think the competitiveness was there, but it was dulled down because we each had a lane. So its not like we tried to outshine one another. She was more extroverted in the people sense and I was more extroverted in the "doing things and eating the world" sense, and we'd blend into the other's domian every now and again. The issues only really started when one of us wanted to steer the ship from the center over to predominantly our domain. That's where it got competitive.

    These days I'd take a more organized approach to it. "This weekend we ride jet skis, next weekend we hang with your friends from highschool" and so on and so forth. Back then it we were both "my way or the highway" which there was still a respectful relationship, but the competition was there.

    Introverted partners would have less of that.

    Slightly unrelated but I think our instinctual variants may have played a part in what we oriented our extroversion towards. I would peg her as So/Sp possibly 3w2. I'm an Sp/Sx 7w8. A politician and a pirate shouldn't be together...fiery as things may be

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    Quote Originally Posted by CptLandhawk View Post
    For sure. I recall that sort of itch to action happening in the relationship. I think the competitiveness was there… A politician and a pirate shouldn't be together...fiery as things may be
    Couldn’t be any more well said!


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    Quote Originally Posted by ENJoymENT View Post
    I think a lot of people would always invite him to their social functions in order for him to “play his role” of livening up the party, sort of as his (perceived) price of admission. That’s somewhat of a pessimistic view, however I became quite protective of him over this. At my ILI/SLI friends’ wedding, my SEE was trying to liven it up by jumping on stage with the band and pretending to play the saxophone… I have it on video where he comes back to our table to grab a sip of beer and my beloved EIE brother (the “puppet master”) came up behind him and yelled like a drill sargent: “you get back there… get back out there!” It’s hilarious but, startled, he immediately put down his beer and ran back to the dance floor grabbing people to make them dance in order to make the wedding a wild success. I know that the typing of celebrities is controversial because we label them without actually knowing them, but I’ve noticed the same phenomenon occurring in the lives of some whom I consider to also be SEE: Elvis, Michael Hutchence, Jennifer Lawrence, Freddie Mercury. Everyone wants Jennifer Lawrence to “liven up the party” with her unconventional antics—tripping on the red carpet to entertain us, Elvis was always expected to adhere to an impossibly exhausting work schedule in order to go out there and make everyone in his entourage rich…and it’s also evident in Freddie Mercury‘s lyrics from The Show Must Go On: “Inside my heart is breaking, my makeup may be flaking but my smile still stays on… I’ll top the bill, I’ll overkill, I have to find the will to carry on…On with the Show!” That responsibility for others’ enjoyment is exhausting when you think of it – everyone always wanting a piece of you and always trying to be so nice to everyone. I think it was the bassist from INXS who remarked that Michael would have to do interview after interview in each town they toured in, and always answer to the fans wanting a piece of him, whereas after a show HE could walk right through the crowd and no one would even recognize or ask anything of him.

    There was an instance when some new acquaintance from work wanted my SEE to help pour the concrete for a patio he was building in another town a week before Christmas— which would have meant he would not get to spend very much time with his kids or family. I was irate over that—not for myself, but for him—telling him “WTF you hardly even know this guy, why would he even ask you, and why would you say yes?” It became evident that this issue continuously presented us with a quandary because every time someone wanted us to do something for them, we began asking ourselves if WE would ever consider ask this of THEM (OR anyone else), and it was astonishing that the answer was always a resounding “No!”. This became a kind of watershed moment for us as a couple, because we then seriously evaluated all of our relationships with our friends and family, and realized that in every instance, we always paid or did more for them than they did for us. I used to host Christmas for 20 people year after year, my ex-husband‘s brother and his wife left one of their kids with me to watch for a summer, then did the same thing with another one of their kids two years later (when we had more kids, and she as a teacher had the summer off to relax in their golf course community clubhouse). I would never in a million years pawn one of my kids off on a relative for a couple of months without them ever having been invited, or at the very least asking the female if it was OK with her since her partner was out-of-town for work every week—I just would not be so bold or have so little pride as to impose in that way. I don’t regret it though, because to this day my kids are super close to their cousins.

    We as a couple began to resent covering more of the costs than anyone else in any extended family trip or outing, and taking the social burden upon ourselves to try to entertain everyone rather than just sitting back and leaving the slack for others to pick up. To be fair, no one forced us to be that way…perhaps we placed this burden on ourselves for some reason, and likely the fault is our own for not just learning how to say “No!”. I DO think that in my case, Se HA has something to do with it, because to say “I wouldn’t be able to handle 6 kids on my own all summer, so I’m sorry I have to say No” would be admitting weakness in reluctantly being backed into the corner of failure against my will. There’s definitely a bit of martyrdom coming into play there, because I wasn’t going to give my LSE sister-in-law that satisfaction of letting her know that I said No because I couldn’t handle it, after the 3 adults arranged this behind my back… I just hoped that she felt guilty while she was lounging around her golf course community with 2 kids for the summer while I had 6, and hopefully realizing that I was a better mother. (Jeez this analysis is becoming pretty fucked up!!) The joke was on me though, because since I didn’t complain when she did it with her oldest child, she did it again with her middle child two years later! I do admit I admire her in some respects for empowering herself through her Si—namely when her husband admitted that he would come home from work and watch their 3 kids and make dinner because she proclaimed she couldn’t function well as a mother after work unless she had some time to reset and look after herself by working out and before coming home for the evening. Meanwhile for MY self care, my PolR Si combined with my Se HA instead had me pushing a double stroller while walking 2 dogs and forcing the 3 oldest kids to hike beside me so that I wouldn’t have to ask anyone else for help.

    There IS an underlying frisson of resentment towards people who are supposed to love us, yet nonetheless have the gall to keep asking when it is blatantly obvious that the requests only and always go in one direction. It’s stressful to be pushed into that uncomfortable position of ultimately having to say “No” when you innately want to pull more than your weight and to please; I used to just put up with it, but now I protect myself more. Perhaps it’s a gamma or FI thing—where it’s super important to us to make sure that we are not being a burden on anyone else, and to overcompensate in our generosity so as to leave ZERO doubt or room for misunderstanding on anyone that we are NOT freeloading. Even more deeply, perhaps it’s an insecurity issue where we feel we have to offer something extra in order to be included or valued. Honestly Covid was kind of a vacation for us socially ha ha.



    I can see how an SEE would feel that pressure but I'm on the end where if I participate in a group effort I weigh very carefully what I'm getting vs what I'm giving up and if I don't find it to be worth it I just walk away. I'm more invested in individuals than groups.

    "OMARGAWSH!!! LETS GO DO XYZ!!"

    "Nah...that sounds lame I'm gonna do ABC"

    "WHY WONT YOU COME WITH US??"

    "The only reason you want me to is cause you really don't want to but can't say no so you want as many people to suffer with you as possible...no thanks"

    I don't feel pressed to make decisions on who I'll help either. My thing is if you want an answer right now it will be a "no" because I haven't weighed out wether I truly can or cannot. I also don't like to break previous arrangements with people in favor of new ones because I think it's disrespectful and inconsiderate of that person's time, and if someone did so to me often enough I'd likely not count on them for anything much after that, or help them with much.

    I also despise when people know I can do something (i play guitar) and then expect me to do it on command. I'm happy being a performer sometimes, but I do so on my terms. If I do play guitar I'll do it for upcoming events so I know I can sound good. Not just on the fly cause someone wants to hear it.
    Last edited by CptLandhawk; 08-01-2022 at 10:04 AM.

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    i think it's an interesting dyamic. in my experience LIE took everything more serious than I did, gave more meaning to what was said and made drastic decisions based on things that in my opinion were not that meaningful or important. I think if he just calmed down everything would have worked out. But I probably needed to be more calm around him too, and that's why activity relationships are more chaotic in a sense... the rollercoaster was fun
    I still think the bond was wonderful and that i want to mend it. but i wonder if LIEs get less fearful or paranoid about relationships as they get older...
    SEE ESFP 7w8

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    No insight or experience witnessing these interact, but am interested, so thanks for sharing.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Danimage View Post
    i think it's an interesting dyamic. in my experience LIE took everything more serious than I did, gave more meaning to what was said and made drastic decisions based on things that in my opinion were not that meaningful or important. I think if he just calmed down everything would have worked out. But I probably needed to be more calm around him too, and that's why activity relationships are more chaotic in a sense... the rollercoaster was fun
    I still think the bond was wonderful and that i want to mend it. but i wonder if LIEs get less fearful or paranoid about relationships as they get older...
    Hope we aren't talking about two different things here, but...

    IME LIEs Fi Seeking partially consists of the inability to wrap their minds around ambiguity in psychological distance. It's like...you're all in, or you're all out; there is no such thing as "kind of serious" to them. If things feel uncertain, they need reassurance that the closeness of the relationship is intact.

    I find that ILIs need more Se than I have the energy to give. I wonder if SEEs feel that LIEs need more Fi than they have the energy to give.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Pink Bear View Post
    Hope we aren't talking about two different things here, but...

    IME LIEs Fi Seeking partially consists of the inability to wrap their minds around ambiguity in psychological distance. It's like...you're all in, or you're all out; there is no such thing as "kind of serious" to them. If things feel uncertain, they need reassurance that the closeness of the relationship is intact.

    I find that ILIs need more Se than I have the energy to give. I wonder if SEEs feel that LIEs need more Fi than they have the energy to give.
    @Pink Bear, this is a very perceptive observation.

    I've interacted with two SEE females at length, and my complaint is that it is impossible to get their undivided attention. They are paying attention to you, and to him, and to her, and to that guy over there, and they are hopping around so much that it's a wonder that they get anything done.

    I felt like I was just passing by in their world, no matter how long I had been talking to them.

    They can focus their attention on you and smile and -wow, the sun just came out- and then their gaze slides away and they suddenly see their new best friend behind you and they just have to talk to them, and this lasts for thirty seconds and then they see their next best friend over across the way and they just have to talk to them, and you're left wondering if this is how they are with every interpersonal interaction? (I believe it is.)

    That has zero appeal to me. I need to know that there is someone there who is rock solid in the relationship. I expect my SO to have lots of friends and family members whom she's devoted to, but there should be only one SO.

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    I think I would enjoy watching SEE interact with other people

    SEE: Hiiiiiii!

    ILI: yeah I hear you. I’m in my head again right now. Go to talk to other people.

    SEE: fuck you!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    @Pink Bear, this is a very perceptive observation.

    I've interacted with two SEE females at length, and my complaint is that it is impossible to get their undivided attention. They are paying attention to you, and to him, and to her, and to that guy over there, and they are hopping around so much that it's a wonder that they get anything done.

    I felt like I was just passing by in their world, no matter how long I had been talking to them.

    They can focus their attention on you and smile and -wow, the sun just came out- and then their gaze slides away and they suddenly see their new best friend behind you and they just have to talk to them, and this lasts for thirty seconds and then they see their next best friend over across the way and they just have to talk to them, and you're left wondering if this is how they are with every interpersonal interaction? (I believe it is.)

    That has zero appeal to me. I need to know that there is someone there who is rock solid in the relationship. I expect my SO to have lots of friends and family members whom she's devoted to, but there should be only one SO.
    Even with ILI, their Dual, they are flaky like that. Out and about, SEE pretty much ignore their dual. Yes, their personal dual. It's documented in some article (which I can't find right now.)

    Personal examples:

    Last year (2021) we went to see The Black Crows in concert. A guy he knows decided to attend, but didn't have a seat like we did. I ended up sitting alone for the entire opening act and the beginning of the main act. My concert buddy my hubby SEE just had to go talk to him for over an hour, leaving me in a crowd all alone. <--- that is typical.

    In 2013 we were at a venue, before a concert, he was sitting down in an area that had a dance floor below it and nobody dancing, but the seating area was higher, up a step and two or three.
    So I was looking at something and then went across the floor to get to him and tripped and fell nearly on my face. What did he do? "Lalalalala." In his own ditsy head. Some other guy ran to me and said "Are you OK?!!" as he helped me up. I was so grateful for that guy, but my hubby, I was seething at him.

    I seem invisible to him and he's no dashing knight in armor. I don't really want one, but I would appreciate a bit more attention out and about. Those are his blonde moments. (Something to call it at least.)

    Semi-Dual SLE seems much more attentive, IMO. I didn't know any SLE as far as I can tell looking back, until my 3rd child, and he is a great conversationalist and likes a lot of things I do, and I really appreciate SLE's. If if if if, I had to have another partner I think I'd try to find a SLE. Another SEE would just be too much.
    Maisy
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    "And one peculiar point I see,
    As one of the many ones of me.
    As truth is gathered, I rearrange,
    Inside out, outside in, inside out, outside in,
    Perpetual change"


    Yes - The Yes Album - from "Perpetual Change" (written by Howe and Squire)

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    Will we start over, or circle the drain crazymaisy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by two View Post
    Are you really enjoying this? I get that it’s on an article but are you honestly personally okay being invisible? What’s stopping you from slapping somebody lightly or moving their face towards you when they are not being attentive? Have you tried it with your partner? Idk if that would work but I sometimes do that because I’m impatient and I don’t like repeating myself.
    Depending on the situation I do try to force him to pay attention, but it's the price to be invisible, to stay invisible, is an ILI dream. I hate it, I love it. I love it. It's just what it is.

    The other possibility would be a doting partner out in the world. Icky if that's all the time, so yes, AM ok with being invisible. (I think about being dependent on anyone being with you makes dying worse, you will not have anyone with you in front of the pearly gates. You are alone. I prepare for that.)

    I can be very sx in the worst cases and cuss him out loudly if I feel it keenly. In Public.
    --He scolds me, but he sees me. LOL
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    "And one peculiar point I see,
    As one of the many ones of me.
    As truth is gathered, I rearrange,
    Inside out, outside in, inside out, outside in,
    Perpetual change"


    Yes - The Yes Album - from "Perpetual Change" (written by Howe and Squire)

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    @crazymaisy are you supposed to hide at all? people aer annoying nad will ruin u if u dont hide. this means he is taking advantage of your vulnerability/need to hide to "protect" u or "let" u be "invisible" to neglect you. like he is a martyr for letting u be alone so it means he can neglect you. "no one can be perfect" but treating u like a normal human being is far from "perfection"
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    Quote Originally Posted by two View Post
    What do you think of someone who listens to you whenever you need him to, but also gives you space for you guys to work on things separately? Does this sound bad and you prefer to be with someone completely inattentive?

    Listens whenever I need him to but ... gives space .... doesn't sound right.

    My SEE inattentive out side the house ... so it's not all the time since we live in the same house.

    Concerts are good outside events to be invisible at, because I control which ones we go to, and that means I love the music so there's that for me to benefit from, though stupid covid ruined that overall.

    I couldn't go to a sporting event and stand to be invisible there. Anxiety to become a microscopic organism or implode, is just exactly like being in a concert venue, suffering through Tedeschi Trucks band in 2013 waiting for The Black Crows to come on and TT kept playing more and more songs .... OMG it was so long and miserable.

    Seeing The Black Crows in 2021 was great, Dirty Honey opened for them, and it was incredible, I was being ignored, which for me was "You are missing this great band!" I like to see him happy, and he's happiest doing his way. I am happy seeing great music that I like. It's ILI and SEE that have this phenomenon which is why @two is not ILI. As it goes, having another friend to go to concerts with would be great. I just don't have any other friends.
    Maisy
    ILI-Ni (INTp)
    I think in pictures, moving pictures...

    Recommended Music - ILI-Ni



    "And one peculiar point I see,
    As one of the many ones of me.
    As truth is gathered, I rearrange,
    Inside out, outside in, inside out, outside in,
    Perpetual change"


    Yes - The Yes Album - from "Perpetual Change" (written by Howe and Squire)

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    Quote Originally Posted by crazymaisy View Post
    Listens whenever I need him to but ... gives space .... doesn't sound right.

    My SEE inattentive out side the house ... so it's not all the time since we live in the same house.

    Concerts are good outside events to be invisible at, because I control which ones we go to, and that means I love the music so there's that for me to benefit from, though stupid covid ruined that overall.

    I couldn't go to a sporting event and stand to be invisible there. Anxiety to become a microscopic organism or implode, is just exactly like being in a concert venue, suffering through Tedeschi Trucks band in 2013 waiting for The Black Crows to come on and TT kept playing more and more songs .... OMG it was so long and miserable.

    Seeing The Black Crows in 2021 was great, Dirty Honey opened for them, and it was incredible, I was being ignored, which for me was "You are missing this great band!" I like to see him happy, and he's happiest doing his way. I am happy seeing great music that I like. It's ILI and SEE that have this phenomenon which is why @two is not ILI. As it goes, having another friend to go to concerts with would be great. I just don't have any other friends.
    Otoh you are a whole ass adult w three (plus?) kids and it’s probably good you’re getting practice not killing yourself just from having to stand around listening to a band you don’t like
    how to enlarge your dragon, click here

    Quote Originally Posted by End View Post
    get ready to get cucked
    Quote Originally Posted by roger557 View Post
    got this Socionics stuff caught by the balls

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    to me it feels often like the lust is there, but the "love" isn't - and I've seen Gammas kinda fanwank something where they want it to mean it deeper than what it really is. They say they aren't being a lustful whore but that's basically what they are being. sorry, pervs are still pervs even if you're Fi valuing and "serious." the SEEs get infatuated by the LIEs but then horribly let down.... a ILI will probably not be that much different tho, I think duality is overrated- but the potential for compatibility is probably greater even if it's not as exciting at first.

    the ethical would have to stop putting on rose colored classes and putting the person on a pedastal, and the LIE would have to stop being a condescending and pretentious asshole and stop using words like 'whom' in the year 2022 - but I wouldn't hold my breath. but that's the thing, ESIs are turned on when people talk pretentious like that, SEEs are only half-way turned on. SEEs want people to be both friendly and self confident in this annoyingly balanced way that doesn't exist in reality. So they always try to like micro-manage people and socially correct them too much.

    sorry I'm being harsh to Gammas, but they've done the 'tough love' thing to me too many times and I feel it's tit for tat lol. It's a win win for everybody!

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    Quote Originally Posted by two View Post
    Also eeek. My type got brought up again. So this time I'll make a premature announcement. Next month will be my 2nd year on this forum and I'll celebrate it by buying a cake and getting typed by G. Everyone's invited! I hope nothing destroys this plan. And for the record, I don't mind getting typed any type. This is just me celebratin' because I think it's the perfect time. yay!
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TVVum6X3TuM

    I regularly watch videos of this IEI and thought it was interesting that he used your profile picture in one of his songs @0:41
    my ideas about socionics:

    https://soziotypen.de/thoughts-on-socionics/

    the section will be updated ever other month or so.

    this is a VI thread with IEI examples

    https://www.the16types.info/vbulleti...-(IEI-edition)

    and this is a thread with EIE examples

    https://www.the16types.info/vbulleti...s-EIE-examples

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    I wish I could see this pair in real life. I think I’ve seen some friendships but never romantic relationships. I imagine it would be among the more turbulent ones, as both types are full of passion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shazaam;[URL="tel:[URL="tel:[URL="tel:1530044"
    1530044[/URL]"]1530044[/URL]"]1530044[/URL]]to me it feels often like the lust is there, but the "love" isn’t
    Perhaps in the beginning… but ultimately there is something just so intoxicatingly validating when one is in a relationship with someone so completely different from you, yet nonetheless understands and cares for you. Over time, when this vastly different human being has your back and provides support during your weakest and worst moments…that definitely does lead to deep love. In my case personally, I came into LIE/SEE Activity from an Extinguishment relationship—with a wonderful, yet at times infuriating LII. When I express something that REALLY matters to me, the SEE will listen and we often come to the realization that we feel the same way—likely due to shared quadra values. He then very easily provides me with emotional validation, and in fact will often pick up the mantle for me—passionately taking action (Se) in my place, which also then spares me from the trauma of having to continue to display these embarrassing emotions (Fi) myself. Similarly, I enjoy taking over the tasks where SEE is getting frustrated – such as wading through the red tape involved in replacing a damaged passport in time for our next trip (Ni), or else resolving a problem with an incompetent customer service person over the phone (Te). Over time, this support is mutually beneficial and certainly enables both to become more successful at the details in life on an expanded scale.

    A funny aside…the personalized ringtone for when my LII ex-husband calls/texts me is the sound of crickets…because that was the standard response I used to get from him (even though I was initially drawn to his calm certitude—possibly mistaking it for ESI Fi?). As a Gamma NT, I was unbelievably independent in my marriage and very rarely asked him for help—thinking that that might be the key to getting a response from him—as surely I didn’t abuse it. But no…still crickets. Even employing my Ni by thinking several steps ahead in order to check-mate him into doing something (in this instance, I had said I would watch his brother’s child for the summer ONLY if I didn’t have to drive our 5 kids 3 hours and across the border to pick him up from the airport). But still no… a day before nephew’s flight, LII called from a work trip in a different city and calmly stated that unfortunately he couldn’t get back and I would have to pick him up (I guess that was a double check-mate on the LII’s part). Now with SEE, if I voice that I’m even SLIGHTLY annoyed with something, I can hear banging around downstairs where SEE is trying to rearrange things and fix it. And so now I make sure I don’t ask for or mention anything, because I don’t want him to be catering to me. In fact we often bicker about who GETS to do an undesirable task for the other person, or who gets to pay, or take the worse parking spot etc.

    the ethical would have to stop putting on rose colored classes and putting the person on a pedastal, and the LIE would have to stop being a condescending and pretentious asshole and stop using words like 'whom' in the year 2022 - but I wouldn't hold my breath. but that's the thing, ESIs are turned on when people talk pretentious like that, SEEs are only half-way turned on.
    LOL you might have a point there. But SEE humours me, and is definitely not intimidated by grammar. We very much like to poke fun at one another—embracing our caricatures in turn—making a mockery by exaggerating our differences. This then actually frees us to laugh at, and then discard them in favour of becoming more multidimensional.

    Quote Originally Posted by PinKDiGiT18 View Post
    I wish I could see this pair in real life. I think I’ve seen some friendships but never romantic relationships. I imagine it would be among the more turbulent ones, as both types are full of passion.
    Yeah it is pretty crazy…but not dull certainly. Everything is a competition. A day at the beach involves frisbee, badminton, bocce, cornhole, we love cards. And in many things— it’s pretty even. With the sporting activities though I don’t stand a chance—he plays hockey and baseball in a league. Yesterday we were playing badminton and laughing so hard when the other person did something embarrassing like got hit in the head or did a ballet kick while failing to make the shot etc. But we’ve learned to laugh at ourselves because it is hilarious to revel in the failures of these two seriously competitive people. In the middle of the game, I walked over to him holding my stomach from laughing and said “did you realize how many times one of us COULD’VE competitively smashed the birdie down on the other to be mean…but we DIDN’T.” He smiled back with such joy—I think because it acknowledged his athletic prowess, while praising us both (though mostly him) for setting his competitiveness aside so that we can have fun/chill together. One thing we like to do is to act very competitive but in a joking way – where we can get it out of our systems, but we know better than to actually “go there” for the good of our relationship. For instance if I have a good hand in cards I might slam it down and say “I’m gon fuck you up!” just to release that competitiveness… but it’s said in a mocking way just to up the ante and intensity of the situation. There’s a lot of faux trash talk. After sex LIE: “Wow…the gloves came off there!” SEE: “I ain’t doing no rope-a-dope!” LIE: spews out in laughter at the boxing metaphor (SEE used to box in teen years). SEE: “Ain’t no one HERE playing possum!” LIE: “I’m grabbing another round of drinks!”

    I think this pairing makes an unconventional couple. My first LTR was with SEE from age 16-20. We would go to parties in Toronto dressed up alike in black jeans, red shirt, black leather jacket. We would spend so much time making inside jokes about everything and everyone… I think it used to alienate people who would shake their heads and walk away because we would just always be laughing about the silliest things. It’s the same with my current relationship, a funky song will come on while driving and I will pulse my shoulder up and down and look challengingly at him, brow raised. He’ll roll his eyes, but then submit to the joy and start pulsing his shoulder. I think we get a kick out of the other person making a fool out of themselves for us. It is intense but it’s big, and I’m guessing some other intertype relationship might seem dull in comparison. I’m not into opioids, but I’m guessing it could be explained this way: after you’ve had OXY, it would be hard to go back to aspirin.
    Last edited by ENJoymENT; 09-08-2022 at 02:32 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by crazymaisy;[URL="tel:1529940"
    1529940[/URL]]Even with ILI, their Dual, they are flaky like that. Out and about, SEE pretty much ignore their dual. Yes, their personal dual. It's documented in some article (which I can't find right now.)

    Personal examples:

    Last year (2021) we went to see The Black Crows in concert. A guy he knows decided to attend, but didn't have a seat like we did. I ended up sitting alone for the entire opening act and the beginning of the main act. My concert buddy my hubby SEE just had to go talk to him for over an hour, leaving me in a crowd all alone. <--- that is typical.

    In 2013 we were at a venue, before a concert, he was sitting down in an area that had a dance floor below it and nobody dancing, but the seating area was higher, up a step and two or three.
    So I was looking at something and then went across the floor to get to him and tripped and fell nearly on my face. What did he do? "Lalalalala." In his own ditsy head. Some other guy ran to me and said "Are you OK?!!" as he helped me up. I was so grateful for that guy, but my hubby, I was seething at him.

    I seem invisible to him and he's no dashing knight in armor. I don't really want one, but I would appreciate a bit more attention out and about. Those are his blonde moments. (Something to call it at least.)

    Semi-Dual SLE seems much more attentive, IMO. I didn't know any SLE as far as I can tell looking back, until my 3rd child, and he is a great conversationalist and likes a lot of things I do, and I really appreciate SLE's. If if if if, I had to have another partner I think I'd try to find a SLE. Another SEE would just be too much.
    I fully understand what you are saying. We were in a town 3 hours away when an old hockey friend came up to talk to SEE. A few hours later we were checking into our hotel and then someone walking across the lobby who he knew from ball tournaments came up to talk to him. Even when we went to the tiny island of Kawaii and were eating breakfast, a bunch of people came up to us who knew him. I think it’s par for the course because they have such a large circle of friends and acquaintances. They like their sports and activities, and that causes them to meet a lot of different people. And because they are not wallflowers, people remember them.

    Yes I’ve been left sitting alone at hockey games and on dates so he can do the social circuit, etc. In the past, I would often just sit back and allow him to “dig his own grave” within our relationship, and then later point out how he was not being a good partner. However this was not very productive, and I know he wasn’t intentionally trying to snub or diss me. So we talked a lot about that stuff, and the solution for us is for me to tell him to go out on his own as much as he wants, and get as much socializing out of his system as he would like—ON HIS OWN TIME. But if he goes to a hockey game, a restaurant, bar or date with me, then he should feel free to say hello to anyone he likes, but immediately tell them he’ll give them a call to do something with them another night. When he gets distracted and abandons you, it is not bothering HIM, it is only bothering you….BUT it will end up bothering him when he ends up with a shitty relationship or a partner who is not happy being in a relationship with him. Therefore it’s in both of your interests to have an agreement in place that will work for both. In fact it will likely be a relief for him to have some boundaries in place to cut out some of the distraction that is pulling him in multiple directions. And if he knows that all he has to say is “great to see you man I’ll give you a call later this week, because it’s date night with my wife”. Then it’s win win win. You can even encourage him to follow up and give them a call and to set up something with them, TOMORROW.

    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange;[URL="tel:1529905"
    1529905[/URL]]@Pink Bear, this is a very perceptive observation.

    I've interacted with two SEE females at length, and my complaint is that it is impossible to get their undivided attention. They are paying attention to you, and to him, and to her, and to that guy over there, and they are hopping around so much that it's a wonder that they get anything done.

    I felt like I was just passing by in their world, no matter how long I had been talking to them.

    They can focus their attention on you and smile and -wow, the sun just came out- and then their gaze slides away and they suddenly see their new best friend behind you and they just have to talk to them, and this lasts for thirty seconds and then they see their next best friend over across the way and they just have to talk to them, and you're left wondering if this is how they are with every interpersonal interaction? (I believe it is.)

    That has zero appeal to me. I need to know that there is someone there who is rock solid in the relationship. I expect my SO to have lots of friends and family members whom she's devoted to, but there should be only one SO.
    Yes the sun comes out when they focus their attention on you. But rather than perceiving the fact that they also spread their light around to others to be a rejection of you, it can perhaps be seen as them exercising their strengths. If you spent time reading up on stuff for work, looking into some investments, and engaging in other Te stuff, no partner would ever think that you are rejecting them by doing those things. It’s just the fact that SEE’s gifts involve interacting with other people, so therefore they unfortunately can’t engage in their strengths without their partners often feeling jealous. In contrast, I don’t think many would be jealous of LIEs engaging in some of their Te pursuits apart from their partner. I also think that when SEEs engage in these continuous and distractive social interactions, it’s almost like they are in a fugue state…just merely reacting as if playing whack-a-mole. There is no sinister underlying motive—such as making others jealous or playing intentional head games, they are merely in the moment.

    I have been in LTRs with 2 different SEEs, and I have never worried about infidelity with either one of them. They have an underlying innocence to them, and—dare I say—even a domestic side. I think the fact that they are so distracted socially is because they have a soft heart for everyone. Because of their weak Ni, they are not out to hurt their partner as part of some scheme. I also find them to be very loyal. If something is important to you, you have to have the courage to lay your insecurities bare and ask if the two of you can come to a strategy for dealing with things that are bothersome or hurtful. While I do agree that it can sometimes be annoying when you are out at a social function with them, that is only a small portion of life, and I truly believe SEEs are very capable of being rocksolid in a relationship. I wouldn’t let this issue of their scattered attention in public be the cause of settling for gray skies, when you could be enjoying the sun‘s glorious rays the rest of the time.

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    @Pink Bear Omg this! He always wanted me to reassure him i was going to be there for him, but i couldn't because i disliked that he needed that, even if i loved him, why did i have to promise him anything? He should have trusted that i had real feelings for him

    In my pov he had too much fear, i didn't know it was that he wanted me to be all in.

    Yes, i think i didn't have enough Fi for him. Same as him being too impulsive for my taste
    SEE ESFP 7w8

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    @Pink Bear, this is a very perceptive observation.

    I've interacted with two SEE females at length, and my complaint is that it is impossible to get their undivided attention. They are paying attention to you, and to him, and to her, and to that guy over there, and they are hopping around so much that it's a wonder that they get anything done.

    I felt like I was just passing by in their world, no matter how long I had been talking to them.

    They can focus their attention on you and smile and -wow, the sun just came out- and then their gaze slides away and they suddenly see their new best friend behind you and they just have to talk to them, and this lasts for thirty seconds and then they see their next best friend over across the way and they just have to talk to them, and you're left wondering if this is how they are with every interpersonal interaction? (I believe it is.)

    That has zero appeal to me. I need to know that there is someone there who is rock solid in the relationship. I expect my SO to have lots of friends and family members whom she's devoted to, but there should be only one SO.
    It's like this for me, but since we still have a favorite person why bother if we give attention to others too? In my pov everyone has something that they can give me, in different ways and a single person can't fullfill everything
    SEE ESFP 7w8

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