ITR Fails

[Sol]

You discuss the situation when people do not know about the Socionics. I'll add what may change when they know the typology and IR theory, how this may affect the relations. Including the shifting to lesser matching with the theory side.

1) strengthening. When you know the types correctly you pay more attention to types related effects, - may better to feel and to use them. So duals may create better couples when know they are duals. Conflictors may get lesser interest to keep the relations and do lesser efforts for them, as understand that with duals may be much easier.
2) compensation. People when know about bad IR may apply more efforts and with more efficiency, with the using of types theory. Sometimes people may overestimate the good IR and do lesser efforts for good relations than is needed or choose too worse pair by non-types traits, to get worse result than when they'd did not know about the types. Though the importance of non-types factors is relative, as effects of types mb strong anyway, - IR to give effects what they should without significant reduction, it's mostly sum situation changes, while feelings/relations be good in IR part and just harder in other parts.
3) self-making. If types were incorrectly identified, then with thinking better IR people may value such relations higher and do more efforts to do the relations better. With thinking worse IR - the relations may become worse, than could.
4) worsening. If types were incorrectly identified this may lead to higher misunderstanding between people to create more problems. People may reject good pairs as think IR are worse or are not sure in the types, or to pull bad pairs as think IR are better. To the same may lead as people may underestimate the importance of non-types factors.

[niffer]

You discuss the situation when people do not know about the Socionics. I'll add what may change when they know the typology and IR theory, how this may affect the relations. Including the shifting to lesser matching with the theory side.

1) strengthening. When you know the types correctly you pay more attention to types related effects, - may better to feel and to use them. So duals may create better couples when know they are duals. Conflictors may get lesser interest to keep the relations and do lesser efforts for them, as understand that with duals may be much easier.
2) compensation. People when know about bad IR may apply more efforts and with more efficiency, with the using of types theory. Sometimes people may overestimate the good IR and do lesser efforts for good relations than is needed or choose too worse pair by non-types traits, to get worse result than when they'd did not know about the types. Though the importance of non-types factors is relative, as effects of types mb strong anyway, - IR to give effects what they should without significant reduction, it's mostly sum situation changes, while feelings/relations be good in IR part and just harder in other parts.
3) self-making. If types were incorrectly identified, then with thinking better IR people may value such relations higher and do more efforts to do the relations better. With thinking worse IR - the relations may become worse, than could.
4) worsening. If types were incorrectly identified this may lead to higher misunderstanding between people to create more problems. People may reject good pairs as think IR are worse, or too pull bad pairs as think IR are better. To the same may lead as people may underestimate the importance of non-types factors.

This is an insightful summary, Sol. Is this your original content? (I mean the ideas & summary, I can tell the writing is yours lol.)

[Sol]

Is this your original content?

Yes. I wrote this initially in other theme, and then have decided it mb useful here too. But there is much of banal, to say it as "original".

[niffer]

I just realized that Singu probably originally thought the SEE was the one who got offended in my example because he was Fi valuing (and the Fi butthurt stereotype).

He's the one defaulting to stereotypes and letting them eclipse reality, and that's why he's projecting it all over the forum members now. Mystery solved.

His job is a translator, and he doesn't even know how to read.

[Rebelondeck]

Done.

I'm not up on modern internet lingo, so does this response have a further meaning?

a.k.a. I/O

[Adam Strange]

A large portion of failures in romantic relationship can be attributed to what I call the grass-looks-greener syndrome, in which infidelity fits. The highest proportion of failures in relationships of every kind are caused by bigotry that is sourced from negative upbringing and experiences. The conflicts that ITR directly cause are all relatable to differences in priorities, methodology and goals, which really aren't causes for failure; ITR only affects how the schisms, as you say, play out. I've experienced, witnessed and presided over countless conflicts and fractures, and I can't blame ITR on a single one - so I wonder how ITR by itself could be used to predict a failure.......

a.k.a. I/O

@Rebelondeck, this is the first post of yours that I’ve read that I disagree with. I’ve seen two people of conflicting types really, really want to get along and be unable to do so when thrown into close proximity where they have to work together.
I’ve also seen duals who didn’t get along for reasons relating to their “priorities, methodologies, and goals” still be drawn to each other.

I think you have it backwards here.

[Rebelondeck]

@Rebelondeck, this is the first post of yours that I’ve read that I disagree with. I’ve seen two people of conflicting types really, really want to get along and be unable to do so when thrown into close proximity where they have to work together.
I’ve also seen duals who didn’t get along for reasons relating to their “priorities, methodologies, and goals” still be drawn to each other.

I think you have it backwards here.

I have not found a correlation in near or actual fisticuff disputes. Certainly, I have seen ITR at work in argument: the way parties present their cases - the verbal parry and thrust - the disharmony in expression - the divergent objectives. I've also seen two sides agreeing to disagree but when complete breakdowns occurred, I've consistently found issues other than ITR at their core.

a.k.a. I/O

[Sol]

I’ve also seen duals who didn’t get along for reasons relating to their “priorities, methodologies, and goals” still be drawn to each other.

IR are about friendship abbility. Besides initial closer, compatible and complementary life views, duals have motivation to adopt to each other as have a mutual attraction and want to be liked by each other to establish closer and better relations. But where you do not seek for a friendship - there is lesser motivation to adopt and change something in your behavior and yourself. So to notice stable problems between duals is possible at work, as some personal sympathy mb not enough to all progressed good. Even marriages of duals may to have problems leading to a break, not just issues at a work. As not all non-types factors are easy to be changed.

I have seen ITR at work in argument

Work is not exactly for what IR are described.
If to talk about personal relations like friendship. If you regularly see that IR does not work as should according to the theory, - in the degree that you do not think it's important factor for quality of and satisfaction from relations - the problem mb in your incorrect typing. With average typing matches <20% it's the main reason to think. In my experience IR mostly work as should, for example.

[Rebelondeck]

......Work is not exactly for what IR are described.....

The phrase "I have seen ITR at work in argument" doesn't necessarily refer to a work environment - "at work" in this sense means "functioning".

a.k.a. I/O

[niffer]

I'm not up on modern internet lingo, so does this response have a further meaning?

Well, just ITR can predict the overall relationship trajectory, but of course not the more detailed dynamics of individual conflicts.

when complete breakdowns occurred, I've consistently found issues other than ITR at their core.

Now that you're here, why don't you describe one of these?

[Rebelondeck]

..........Now that you're here, why don't you describe one of these?

ENFp, whose ISFp wife of 11 years had recently kicked him out of the house because of his infidelity with a stripper, had a very brutal fist fight with an ISTp, who was raised by an abusive alcoholic and had left home at 16; the two fighters had known each other for approximately 6 years but weren't close - nor did they seem enemies. The ENFp lost the fight even though he was much bigger; neither said why it started or pointed a finger. Two years after this incident, the ENFp lost his job because of theft and three years after losing his job died of a drug overdose. I doubt that this failure was attributable to ITR....

a.k.a. I/O

[niffer]

ENFp, whose ISFp wife of 11 years had recently kicked him out of the house because of his infidelity with a stripper, had a very brutal fist fight with an ISTp, who was raised by an abusive alcoholic and had left home at 16; the two fighters had known each other for approximately 6 years but weren't close - nor did they seem enemies. The ENFp lost the fight even though he was much bigger; neither said why it started or pointed a finger. Two years after this incident, the ENFp lost his job because of theft and three years after losing his job died of a drug overdose. I doubt that this failure was attributable to ITR....

a.k.a. I/O

The kinds of gangsters you make friends with ... lol....

Alright, this person sounds like an exceptionally chaotic person lol. With this in mind, probably any ITR would be problematic for him. It would have been hard to find a low key enough female ISTp to balance him out.

Thanks a lot! Have any more stories like this??

[Rebelondeck]

The kinds of gangsters you make friends with ... lol........

It's a plus when managers also get to know their staffs' home lives although this seems to be frowned upon by many corporations. These so-called gangsters were very likeable and competent with no criminal records - loving and providing for their families; the monsters within are often well hidden. The ISTp is still doing very well......

a.k.a. I/O

[Jerdle]

I am ILE, my mother is EII. We get on very well for Supervision.

[schwiftyrickty]

One of my best friends from high school I'm pretty sure is ESI. I suppose it's possible she could be SEI-Si, but I really don't think so (she's too serious, but has strong Si). We have very positive opinions of each other, though our on-on-one interactions are kind of awkward, especially sober.

I also have a good friend from that time who is EII. Kind of the same idea there. We love each other but there's no "spark" one-on-one. We need to drop acid together to connect haha

I also have several mostly positive SEE relationships, though we tend to argue a lot. But I find them fun and loyal.

I think my favorite cousin was ILI. We had long conversations and rode our bikes and climbed trees and explored the storm drains. We haven't spoken in over a decade. We turned out to be very different people, especially politically.

[niffer]

I think things might be particularly difficult in decisive quadras intra-quadra. Actually some socionics writers have noted that LSI-EIE duality in particular can be very difficult because of how turbulent the Se-Ni dynamic is.

I've noticed that I don't get on with beta NFs a lot of the time, in particular a lot of the male ones, because their use of Se crosses boundaries for me really easily. Antagonistic behaviour or rough handling is the fastest way to get me to stay miles away in the distance.

[Guillaine]

i don't know but I'm starting to think there is some weight to be given to the enneagram and particularly the instincts along with itr. I mean I have just posted elsewhere but I have observed repeatedly some clash between me being contra-flow and ex- partners/friends who are syn flow even with the sx in the first place as me, it's just a really different pull/motivation factor. The clashes come when I feel they are overdoing the amount of energy to being agreeable with others and following formalities and they feel I am being too much the other way.

Along with that I have an experience of finding a dual, us both being attracted, trying a relationship but it not being compatible, and we were both quite healthy and positive people, so I can only guess it was due to the fact that he was sp/so and also e 1 and e4 kind of don't work....unless maybe they are very very self-actualised, and maybe better if the female is the 1.

So Im kind of coming to the conclusion that it's most compatible for me to be with a (healthy) sp/sx for a ltr, which seems like I'm pretty picky!!!

[Adam Strange]

i don't know but I'm starting to think there is some weight to be given to the enneagram and particularly the instincts along with itr. I mean I have just posted elsewhere but I have observed repeatedly some clash between me being contra-flow and ex- partners/friends who are syn flow even with the sx in the first place as me, it's just a really different pull/motivation factor. The clashes come when I feel they are overdoing the amount of energy to being agreeable with others and following formalities and they feel I am being too much the other way.

Along with that I have an experience of finding a dual, us both being attracted, trying a relationship but it not being compatible, and we were both quite healthy and positive people, so I can only guess it was due to the fact that he was sp/so and also e 1 and e4 kind of don't work....unless maybe they are very very self-actualised, and maybe better if the female is the 1.

So Im kind of coming to the conclusion that it's most compatible for me to be with a (healthy) sp/sx for a ltr, which seems like I'm pretty picky!!!

Yes, indeed, instincts make a huge difference. Here is what ex-forumite Amber said about them, but I unfortunately don't know what her instinct stack is:

Sx first is the most compatible .... to such an extent that a relationship with an Sx often proves superior to one that should be mana-from-the-sky socionically.
Sx/so is incredibly compatible, but there's lots of tension as well due to a form of "total commitment anxiety". You feel the Sx pull that wants to merge and give it all, but at the same time Sx/so has to feel free to be safe. If you let them be, they come to you. If you make them jealous, they can be like puppies. If you make claims, you risk losing them.
Sp/so is very calming, very dedicated and trustable usually ...it makes for an interesting dynamic.... but I don't think I actually ever had such a partner. So/sp has a fetish for power stuff that -- must admit - sometimes turns me on. It's engaging and demanding, makes me work and think and asks stuff from me, which can be cool. So/sx is very positive, very sweet, but sometimes I don't know if they don't like everyone the same way.
We flirt a lot and keep the vibe up high, but there are attachment questions at play. Sp/sx is the most far-off , autistic, and bland to me romantically or erotically speaking.

Regarding being picky, it's better to choose wisely than to choose quickly. But once you figure out what you like, you might be surprised at how many people of that type there are out there.

[Guillaine]

Yes, indeed, instincts make a huge difference. Here is what ex-forumite Amber said about them, but I unfortunately don't know what her instinct stack is:

Sx first is the most compatible .... to such an extent that a relationship with an Sx often proves superior to one that should be mana-from-the-sky socionically.
Sx/so is incredibly compatible, but there's lots of tension as well due to a form of "total commitment anxiety". You feel the Sx pull that wants to merge and give it all, but at the same time Sx/so has to feel free to be safe. If you let them be, they come to you. If you make them jealous, they can be like puppies. If you make claims, you risk losing them.
Sp/so is very calming, very dedicated and trustable usually ...it makes for an interesting dynamic.... but I don't think I actually ever had such a partner. So/sp has a fetish for power stuff that -- must admit - sometimes turns me on. It's engaging and demanding, makes me work and think and asks stuff from me, which can be cool. So/sx is very positive, very sweet, but sometimes I don't know if they don't like everyone the same way.
We flirt a lot and keep the vibe up high, but there are attachment questions at play. Sp/sx is the most far-off , autistic, and bland to me romantically or erotically speaking.

Regarding being picky, it's better to choose wisely than to choose quickly. But once you figure out what you like, you might be surprised at how many people of that type there are out there.

Thanks, I think she must be sx/sp. I read around and after reading i thought sx/sp would be best, having the same first priority. But now I see and remember from the past the flows are going in the wrong/opposite directions. With a syn flow I feel a bit inadequate, like I'm not able to provide something that is fundamental to them (agreeableness). So now I'm reconsidering...could be that sp/sx or sx/so are better.

[Lord Pixel]

I'm and EII male and I dated an ILI female. We had some rational/irrational issues and 4D Fi/Fi HA issues, and Some 4D Ni unvalued ni issues, as well as Si/Se problems.

Rational/irrational and fi issues were essentislly the same. I am a christian, she was not, I should have not dated her, but like a love needy attention craving idiot, I did.
I had a set worldview (that's what static means right?) She wanted to speculate and play around with many worldviews. This actually physically gave me a headache to do this, my mind was set and formed very heavily on my worldview and she wanted to play around with all these weird ideas I felt like lead no where " what if aliens created us, what if we are in the matrix, what if what if" I felt like, Pick Something! Stop changing the very foundation in which you see life, pick something at least or its a waste of time. It gave me a headache because it felt like switching brains over and over. Also my Christian beliefs where very strong for me and non negotiable and not really going anywhere, it is real for me. For her it was like "meh, sounds nice, I cud go to church and not really be affected." My fi did not want her to go to church for me but for herself, she was willibg to do it for me and the relationship and I did not like that, because it wasn't real to her. Sometimes I came off too serious about that. It was just something to be curious about for her, I felt like it wasnt equally serious for her, her nonchalantness made me feel like I could not strongly relate to her. So I'd say being able to change worldview so easy was a rat/irrat problem, and my seriousness about my faith and her slight curiosity was an Fi 4d Fi HA problem.

Her 4D Ni themed our entire relationship. Thr entire relationship in the back of my mind I knew I shouldnt be dating her because of the faith issue, but she had desires for us to grow old together. She was already set on the relationship working and I unsure of it working. We got together to see if we could make it to growing old together. It was never, hey we are just dating and seeing if we like each other enough to stay, no we were dating to realize her vision of growing old together, and that could feel like pressure, the more sure she became and advanced forward the more unsure I became and started pullling back. She wanted to break past our problems, seeing our love tested through overcoming conflict, I wanted to find someone more compatible, thats how I chose to deal with the problems, since they felt bigger than simple solutions. My Ne doubt and her Ni sureness sort of were unconsciously fighting against each other.

Her Se and My Si clashed a little, in little ways and more serious ways. Little ways, she forced me to eat food and I did not like it, she saw it as being caring And I saw it as her lack of ability to tell whether or not I was full and eating more would be uncomfortable. I sometimes felt like she was trying to make me unconfortable by forcing me to eat more food, because I would decline and then she would continue you to offer. It was dumb but a big enough problem, that I had to address it. More serious issue was, she got an operation that took away her ability to have children, it was intentional. I wanted kids, then she expressed to me that she would like to have kids if it was with me. But the issue was she could bot have kids. This was before we started dating, so I was considering not dating her since she could not have kids. She started asking me if I was ok with adoption. Absolutely no for me, she then started explaining that she was ok with it in a way that seemed like she was trying to convince me that its not that different. To me it is very different. Then she started to ask if I was ok with surrogate mother birth. Absolutely not. She once again seemed ok with it and I started to feel a disconnect, like I could never be ok with somethibg like that unless it was an only option, and in this case if I wanted kids my other option would be to find someone else to date. So I was completely against any weird unconventional method to having children, and she seemed ok with those methods. That was a physically uncomfortable disconnect for me. Don't screw around with child birth. Si/Se conflict.