You can view the page at http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...Stratiyevskaya
Article: Duality Relations ENTj and ISFj by Stratiyevskaya
You can view the page at http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...Stratiyevskaya
, LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
Originally Posted by implied
Until they have had their fill "playing with their toys", until they have investigated and depleted all of the possibilistic potential, this pair of experimenters, IEE and SLI, won't give up on their "guinea pigs", won't let them go.
...and the dyad IEE-SLI does not leave the dyad LIE-ESI without their attention: uses them as guinea pigs for their experiments designed realize their other-worldly boundless fantasies and ideas by checking the possibility of their implementation into practice
a fictional example that came to my mind upon reading these parts was Hunger Games
where The Capitol is a Delta aristocratic society and the contestants who have to fight to participate in the "experiments" and games and fight to the death are Gamma or Beta
This description is awful. LIEs - exploiters who cheat, have fun, make money at the expense of fearful loyal ESIs who basically hate the guts of their duals but keep on staying with them out of "duty". The only case in which this doesn't happen is if LIEs "devote all their work" to their family. I'm sorry strats but I don't believe a word of what you say in this respect.
WTF? According to this article, ESI can't have their own projects and make plans? I have mine, coming for what I desire for me and in my life, for my own fulfilment. I'm Fi-based, for Christ sake! So I feel really easily what I like to do, my interests, what I want do to with my life, in a career, etc. And I can easily make plans and execute them. Don't need someone else to do that for me!
Yes, I have plans too that I wanna execute with a partner. Like having a family, moving somewhere else in my province or in the world, but I'm actually planning to do that on my own, won't wait for a partner, I have a strong desire for this project. So, I couldn't live by the desires of someone else.That would be a total denial of my own self. Like being dead. I don't want this. And I don't want a partner who doesn't have personal desires and who would follow me blindly. Erk.
So, what I'm looking for in a partner is a similarity in long-term life desires. Someone who want to make a team with me to accomplish them. I'm not looking for someone to guide me. What a ridiculous assumption. I hope ENTjs love strong-willed people.
Last edited by blackburry; 04-15-2014 at 05:09 AM.
Maturity level of people is all over the place. I hope to see more LIE mature after reading a reflection of themselves at their possible worst. Same for all types.
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Dual type(as per tcaudilllg)
Enneagram 5 (wings either 4 or 6)?
I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE
Best description of functions:
http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html
I hardly think you're in the position to criticise the maturity level of anyone.
It's not a picture. It's a gif, dummay.
I have a plan and all I need is someone to help me get there is a recapitulation of SxE dual descriptions. Have you looked into SEE instead of ESI?
A lot of material here, but overall quite a negative view of ENTJs. Apparently we all have a myriad of faults or potential faults, token Te-benefits aside. Depiction of ESIs seemed pretty one-dimensional too.. I wouldn't go so far to say that the piece was flat out wrong. But very unbalanced and in that sense not able to give an accurate picture of this dyad.
i've seen Statievskaya's typed as ESI. which leads to a question: wouldn't she focus on the faults of others as a negativist Fi type? but only as a potential warning to the pitfalls that could be avoided and not as a condemnation of ENTjs.
Ahh haha. Well that could make sense. Do you think you could pull up where you found that? I'm a bit curious about it
Esi ~~ I'm annoyed that I read all of this looking for some possibly useful info. Apparently I'm supposed to be wary of my dual, always expect foulplay and laziness. This particular negative point was reiterated too many times to not have an incorrect motive or emotional wound connected to it. I wasn't even given any instructions other that> prepare to be taken advantage of. I call bullshit
I can't seem to remember it now, sorry, it was a discussion in gamma or this forum that pointed out how ESIs are "negativists" and have Fi with a minus attached to it (-Fi) which makes them focus too much at negative traits in people and negative ethical potential of situations instead of positive outcomes. "Remembering wrongdoings" is what V.S.'s articles are replete with, but I don't think it's because she wants to put LIE's down instead she is simply giving -Fi warnings to them.Ahh haha. Well that could make sense. Do you think you could pull up where you found that? I'm a bit curious about it
−Fi, mental, during uncertainty in Ne
Response by ESI "Draiser"
"Regarding remembering wrongdoings and grudges – on one hand, slights I remember forever, but only as a "fact of grievance". On the other hand, it's not a given that I will resent the person and dream about getting revenge – I can peacefully interact with an offender. I will simply make a mental note that this person has treated me poorly, which means either that this is a bad person or that this person has negative attitude towards me. In either case, this is useful and important for me information that should not be forgotten.
In this sense I do remember everything bad, even minor things, and remember them for the entire life. Good things I may forget. Because for me the good things are not as important – if you forget that a person has treated you well, this is less dangerous than forgetting that he or she has treated your poorly, and is capable various bad and malicious behavior.
Here's one more thing: I acutely feel bad or poor attitudes – towards myself or between other people. I see poor attitude immediately and I am never wrong in this. Meanwhile, in good relations I orient rather poorly ... Two days ago my boyfriend has introduced one of my friends to his friend. I watched the couple the entire evening, but couldn't discern if his friend liked her or not. There were no signs of negative attitude, that's for sure, but I couldn't estimate the degree of good relations between them either.
I show my negative attitude when interactions with someone ruin my mood. In such cases, I can forget about the benefits of our interaction and about the negative consequences of conflict. If a person drives me into a depressed state, I cannot hide my negative relation to him."
http://wikisocion.org/en/index.php?t...2minus.22_sign
LIEs, contrary to their ever vigilant ESI duals, seem to blank out any negative relational information, and then they put themselves and their relationships at a risk.
typing as SEE your expectations of your duals would be completely different of course
OK, thanks : ) If you do remember later, it'd be interesting to take a look. I remember reading that passage, hm. The negativist ethical attitude is def something I'm still thinking about though.
Until they have had their fill "playing with their toys", until they have investigated and depleted all of the possibilistic potential, this pair of experimenters, IEE and SLI, won't give up on their "guinea pigs", won't let them go.
...and the dyad IEE-SLI does not leave the dyad LIE-ESI without their attention: uses them as guinea pigs for their experiments designed realize their other-worldly boundless fantasies and ideas by checking the possibility of their implementation into practice
OT but ...
I am incredibly aware of my own evil and those in others, duals included. That said, get your head out of your ass, Stratievskaya; you realize we're (delta irrationals) not all evil social scientists; a lot of us are aware of the impact/influence we have on people and thus monitor out our own urges. Man, some of these descriptions are effed up. I've met jackass ESIs (Gamma negativists can be hypocritical pains in the ass) and some really great ones. And you know what? Some of us don't fuck with them and we remember their preferences (eg if we think is good for them and they think otherwise, we don't force matchmaking). And we try to give them both pros and cons before solidifying our opinion or supporting them on something. Jeez; can I see myself as the IEE mother telling her ESI daughter not to date the LIE guy? Sure. But I can promise you that I could also be supportive and tell her to wait and see and that I'll be with her no matter what happens or what she wants. And shit, I can be right about people too even when I wish I wasn't. My +Fi has been a pain in the ass in the past (trying to overlook others' bad qualities so I can maintain decent relations with them); it has also however been a reason that I can get along with people and be valued, at times.
Also, jeez, there are incredibly gross LIEs out there and some really responsible, loyal ones. LIEs can be like that espcially, when they're older and have made mistakes and learned from them.
strats is actually dead (awkward). but no, for real though. she's so full of it sometimes. I actually wonder, what if this were more
relevant 30 years ago? She was from a more conservative time. Probably has something to do with the uptightness.
I think this is rubbish. Plenty of LIEs are raised with good values, and have the sense to interact responsibly, I personally have known a few. They don't need "aging" or maturing, they're innately good. GOES FOR ALL TYPES! SHEESH (not directed at you inabox)
@carrina, I said, especially when they're (LIEs are) older but not invariably so.
I believe that people are given both good and bad values, some more some less
Ahh, duality, such a beautiful and blissful thing according to this article....
This article, and the one by Strat on ENTj's (http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...Stratiyevskaya), are the reasons I joined this forum.
I had never seen a better description of myself, and if her description of LIE's in this Duality article has been called a bit harsh (and I've never seen it that way - it is only her relating her own experiences), it is still light-years better than any other description of LIE's, and the kind of partner they need, that I've read, and I've read quite a few.
I definitely owe her.
Since joining this forum, I've found it to be better than I had hoped. Smart people, good experiences.
Role Fe!
In for example ESI-LIE the Fe of LIE is more apparent. Its like ESI just do not do the Fe to a greater extent while LIE actually rely more of it to keep positive/neutral relationship with people in their environment. Same with EII who create strong one on one connections but can be totally awkward, maybe even displaying how much they do not value Fe. The LSE however have some Fe going at most times if even only for communication lubricant.
Brings the question, in this theoretical dual relationship does the LIE bring the Fe to the table?
Since it is a Bold function the role function is probably more active or visible in most cases than the ignoring function. But it's not something we are skilled at.
Also, there are cases where Fe role is not all that noticeable, where the LIE is more socially introverted e.g.
I hate this
this article makes perfect sense to me, and I don't think its being unduly harsh; not because I think LIEs are scum, but because I don't think Strat means what many different types attribute to her were they using the words used by her. I think ESIs say stuff that comes off harsh in the minds of others, but from the point of Fi its just a kind of dry factual description of ethical issues, that other people don't dare to state so directly because the perceived harshness is anathema to their preferred mode of expression; hence they have to imagine how hateful and worked up they'd have to be to express themselves as such. I don't think Strat is even being that harsh or negative... to me it bleeds a kind of love that if anything borders of self aggrandizement simply because you can tell she loves the person these traits belong to. the more brutally honest she is the more it speaks to her own nature of understanding and acceptance, and is furthermore, as far as ESI can tell, the first steps on the road to improvement. the fact she cares enough to let it get a little ugly shows she cares because it seems like everyone else doesn't have the stomach for brutal "ethical facts" and always wants to make various end runs around the ugly truth, etc (once again though, taken as a whole, its really not ugly, it only comes off that way in the minds of others who don't look at the whole dynamic, which is actually quite beautiful).
I don't think all the gammas commenting would care that much about harsh if they thought it was accurate.
honestly if LIEs could self evaluate in the way strat does there'd be no point to ESI. that's whats so awesome about strat; anyone can do a thinking stlye "objective" evaluation, but you rarely get a moral narrative rooted in gamma values (involutionary ethics of relations (-Fi)). that said, of course its pushing an agenda: that struggle is part of LIE/ESI duality so of course there's going to be reciprocal pushback. it doesn't mean the commentary isn't awesome or less true
its also going to be individual and subjective by nature, so other ESIs are going to have differences with it... and thats ok. I don't know, I just like it for what it is, which is a subjective but well thought out and expressed take on socionics through the eyes of ESI. others want it to be something more universal or something it cannot be for what reasons I can't entirely fathom, when its like a piece of art--just appreciate it for what it is, but there's no real point in getting your back up
its a self centered personal statement, but so what. there can be truth and beauty in that
is the premise here you can do whatever you want as long as you provide and anyone who asks more is out of line
There is nothing factual about her descriptions, many times she gives some very specific examples i.e. gambling your house off, accusing your partner of shit, being obssessed about cleaning and ethical wrongdoings etc. and associates this to a specific type...how can that make any sense?
Said that, I still like her type descriptions, but her relational descriptions are just too dramatic.
Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit
i guess she has been hurt very badly, i suppose this piece she wrote is not for us but for her.
So for ESTp INFp and ENTj ISFj relations sound the worst, but I have only read 3. ESTp INFp, I don't know what could sound worse than that one though.
I'm LIE, and when I first joined this forum, I didn't know about the concept of Duality. It sounded remarkable, electric, even magical, like Dorothy stepping from a black and white Kansas into a technicolor Oz. But after reading about my Duals, I was able to identify a few people from my past who were obviously Duals, including my grandmother and my best friend in high school, and there was nothing electric about them.
To me, the most remarkable thing about those relationships was that they felt like "nothing at all." Almost as if my grandmother and my buddy were wallpaper or air; something that was there but wasn't particularly noticed because it wasn't causing me any problems.
I now recognize that this feeling I get when I'm around Duals is due to their relieving me of the tasks of dealing with the world with my weaker functions, which allows me to deal with the world with my stronger, more competent functions. When I'm around Duals, I'm no longer irritated by the craziness of some other people, nor do I have to deal with a lot of minor tasks which I know I'm not good at doing and will undoubtedly fail at, no matter how hard I try to do them.
I've read posts by some people who say, because Duality allows you to concentrate on your strengths and lets your weaker functions atrophy, that it is bad for you. Personally, I'm happy to offload the things that I'm not good at onto someone else, while at the same time, doing what I do best, which incidentally benefits them. Every time I get on a plane, I don't feel the need to be able to disassemble and reassemble the engines while simultaneously being able to gracefully serve coffee to disagreeable passengers.
The last few weeks, I’ve been working and talking with a Dual almost every day.
God, I can feel myself straightening out into a more balanced version of myself. I feel like I have the ability to go forward and accomplish things which were previously impossible, without being distracted by annoying bullshit.
I wish I had met her when I was twenty. I wouldn’t have wasted all this time.
She’s a lesbian, so she’s not looking for me, but damn, I don’t care. I just want her around for the improvements she makes to my life.
With a Dual around, I can better focus on long term problems of how to stay profitable, and I’m less distracted by the immediate things which have to be done every day.
I find the money, and she rearranges furniture and buys lunch and clothes and everything else that is required to get through a day, and she does it with style and wisdom regarding my needs.
She tends to defend me against idiots and time wasters. She actually said she feels protective of me. I, in turn, seem to calm her down. Maybe it’s my steadiness, maybe it’s because she can see money pouring into her bank account, IDK. But I like it.
Fuck, to be honest, I want it and need it.
Hope you don't fall for her, because it would really suck
Maybe you can reprogram her mind (through her DS) to be str8
Anyway, it must be a good experience for you, so keep your heart strong
Sometimes you don't have motivation because you lack purpose.
Sometimes you don't have purpose, because you lack self-knowledge
Sometimes you don't have self-knowledge because you lack love
Sometimes you don't have love because you lack self-love
Sometimes you don't have self-love because you lack guess what? Ask Gulenko!!
Well not all ESE's are idiots, presumably.
It's very true that duals feel like that. No need to impress them, or force yourself to be someone else. Unfortunately that can bring the differences to the fore.
You probably meet duals most days of the week. You just don't notice them most of the time. But when you're down, depressed and burnt out, then being with them feels very relieving. Most people look for someone who can feed their ego(hot bodies, passion, someone who can understand their ego functions and values, give social status, security and whatnot), not some lukewarm unconditional simple relationship that makes living on this earth not hell anymore. One day, you wake up to realize duals have been there all along and you've been chasing a fanstasm that brought only pain.
Didn't you say that when you were young you thought feelers were stupid? The right time to meet the right people is when you're ready to accept them... and ready to accept that part of yourself(Fi).
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