Gamma Duality

[hatesyardwork]

All of that is true, I think; but in addition women also want to know you're tactful, discerning, in control of yourself, and hold them and yourself in high regard. Not saying you're guilty of transgressing any of those virtues, but I can envision a LIE being so direct it gives off a negative vibe, even though it meets your initial criteria maybe it goes beyond and has negative implications as well. I always tend to criticise LIE's in this regard, i.e.: being overkill, and I'm not saying this is definitely happening and that you're putting out a lizard man vibe, but I can say I have seen such things as a matter of personal experience.

Its funny Trump comes up, because he takes this to 11, whereas LIEs, as a matter of degree, aren't that extreme, but they do suffer from overshooting the mark which is what produces the questionable vibe at issue


"grab them by the pussy" is 8w7 in a nutshell, in a bad way

No, I am socially calibrated. I posted earlier about not being highly "sexualized" and hitting on girls everywhere. I find a lot of women attractive, but am attracted to very few. The ones I do want after some tension and flirting.............bigtime eye contact. I already have some rapport built with them.

Only bold and confident women hit on you blatantly and show interest, the shy ones want to see your interest before they put themselves out there. Women are coy with me, wondering if I am into them..........I let them know that I am.

[Bertrand]

No, I am socially calibrated. I posted earlier about not being highly "sexualized" and hitting on girls everywhere. I find a lot of women attractive, but am attracted to very few. The ones I do want after some tension and flirting.............bigtime eye contact. I already have some rapport built with them.

Only bold and confident women hit on you blatantly and show interest, the shy ones want to see your interest before they put themselves out there. Women are coy with me, wondering if I am into them..........I let them know that I am.

Fair enough, I know at least one ESI that would 100% appreciate this approach and think it the most natural and reasonable in the world

Based on what you've said I can see it playing out perfectly and not overshooting the mark or turning her off at all--quite the opposite in fact. I guess criticisms come from other types imposing their values from the outside on your more internally calibrated LIE/ESI dynamic. Its funny cause ESI is the aggressor, but its more subtle than her being the pursuer, it is in some sense only after you've made your interest known that that dynamic starts to unfold and I feel like Ne PoLR really appreciates making motives easy to discern, hence what you're describing does seem like an effective way to kick things off

[hatesyardwork]

^ Maybe I am wrong, but I cannot shake off the feeling that what you just said there is much more typical of Beta ST behaviour, making me inclined to believe you could be LSI instead.

And... "not like I pulled a Donald Trump", haha.

I held back for years waiting for women to come to me, and they don't, many are terrified of showing interest in a guy. It's learned behavior, not instinctive.

[crazymaisy]

Back in the late 1980's I was in the local mall with my mother, on my day off, there to get my check from the store I worked at. We were walking and suddenly a couple of guys swept past us and one turn around right in front of me and stated "You're so beautiful!" very loudly and it flummoxed me. Thankfully he didn't stop. I was wearing a simple dress that I'd made, cotton with an army green floral pattern on cream, not big, not small, flowers. I'm not tall, just under 5'2", normal with good features, not that great. So it was either honest or sarcastic, I have no clue. Or more likely, sexual, still either honest or sarcastic, but it was more a tease that I didn't normally get. [I'm considered unapproachable by strangers.]

It more than flummoxed me, I was thrown to the wolves of emotiveness, and I was so embarrassed. ILI-Ni doesn't go for such an approach. Guard must be down, and safety assured. ILI is better off with the SEE who withholds the crass sexualness until they know the ILI well. IMO

[hatesyardwork]

Fair enough, I know at least one ESI that would 100% appreciate this approach and think it the most natural and reasonable in the world

Based on what you've said I can see it playing out perfectly and not overshooting the mark or turning her off at all--quite the opposite in fact. I guess criticisms come from other types imposing their values from the outside on your more internally calibrated LIE/ESI dynamic. Its funny cause ESI is the aggressor, but its more subtle than her being the pursuer, it is in some sense only after you've made your interest known that that dynamic starts to unfold and I feel like Ne PoLR really appreciates making motives easy to discern, hence what you're describing does seem like an effective way to kick things off

I find it very effective, forces them to make a decision. Saves time and money. You have established this as sexual and not a feeling each other out process. The shy ones waiting for you to show interest I already know like me have a Jesus moment.

Does scare some off, who I now know don't have a lot of interest in or are insecure and prudish. I stated earlier that I lose interest if the girl doesn't respond because A shes not into me, B she's a prude, C she is insecure. The shy confident sexual ones into you, are fine with it, and delighted you want them, and they need to know that before they feel comfortable enough to move forward with you. They are waiting for you to be vulnerable first in my opinion. The walls come tumbling down in most cases, there are just waiting on you to be clear in your desire for them. Eye Contact, don't have to say shit, she now knows, and she can express herself to you now because she knows you are not going to reject her because you have shown that you want her sexually. Excellent screening technique. Some start to come around, who balk at first, they approach you subtly and I ask them out after that, again, I am letting her decide. The ones who balk show me one of those 3 things.

Gamma sexual wants are outside of prudish no? Not into me, OK cool. Prudish tells me the sex I am already thinking about is not going to meet my expectations and I just saved the cost of a dinner and a movie on someone I will find to be a prude. Insecure speaks for itself.

I have been posting because I scared off an ESI who I was very interested in and I have been ruminating on my disappointment because she balked. But now I know my ABC's. Very attracted to her and I know she is into me but she is either a B or a C based on her reaction but I have saved myself from some future grief and ambiguity.

[hatesyardwork]

Based on what you've said I can see it playing out perfectly and not overshooting the mark or turning her off at all--quite the opposite in fact.

Bingo

[hatesyardwork]

^ Maybe I am wrong, but I cannot shake off the feeling that what you just said there is much more typical of Beta ST behaviour, making me inclined to believe you could be LSI instead.

When I am drinking........SLE and forward. Sober..........LIE, why the fuck isn't she making a move? Decided to go against my engineering and do sober what I was doing drunk, forward and honest. Years of failure and trial and error. You face instant rejection, but it's bold and saves time. So not fearing rejection is all that is required, which is what held me back for years. Never occurred to me that women's fear was greater than mine since they intimidated me and I couldn't conceive that I intimidated them. Not so.

[ashlesha]

I agree w/ @Bertrand that what @hatesyardwork has said is more or less on point wrt to initiation. I mean, I'd have to see it, but eye contact doesn't seem overly forward..? I feel like this is all being analyzed way too much tho, its hard to break these things down into A, B, C and capture whats actually going on irl.

edit: I guess awed/nervous "you're pretty" eye contact is much preferable ime to sexy/aggressive "lets fuck" eye contact, but like....................that's what I mean, lol.

[Skepsis]

Gamma duality involves some sort of face sitting. That is all I know.

[hatesyardwork]

I agree w/ @Bertrand that what @hatesyardwork has said is more or less on point wrt to initiation. I mean, I'd have to see it, but eye contact doesn't seem overly forward..? I feel like this is all being analyzed way too much tho, its hard to break these things down into A, B, C and capture whats actually going on irl.

edit: I guess awed/nervous "you're pretty" eye contact is much preferable ime to sexy/aggressive "lets fuck" eye contact, but like....................that's what I mean, lol.

There is always tension when I know a girl is into me, but most hold back and hold all their cards and barely flirt. ESI are not the most outwardly flirty and expressive women, but the awkwardness, total ignoring, sternness on their faces and refusal to look at me reveals their attraction. Quick and darting eye contact is about it from them. I can always tell they like me because the annoyance and feigned indifference on the face of a woman I have never done anything to and this hostility towards me isn't warranted......... always screams to me ESI. And for reasons I can't articulate, this is hugely attractive to me......that kind of reserve is sexy, it screams strength and authenticity to me. IDK if that makes sense. Maybe socionics can explain it.

Attempts at friendliness and subtly usually incur harsher avoidance and coyness, so I say fuck it and booom............I give them the eye contact. I can tell that they are doing the best they can, but they are so buttoned up and I need to let her know, kind of put her out of her misery and my own impatience drives that. But I crank up the tension huge first, sexual tension is not a bad thing. It really is a strange power dynamic. I think showing my vulnerability although subtle kind of reassures them to open up some. It's still eggshells ofcourse, but mutual attraction has been established which is half the battle of working thru each others initial fears.


@lungs......you think showing vulnerability falls under "thrilled when their partner shows parts of themselves out of character"? "Strong façade they can break down..........etc"?


Don't think I know how to give Awwww shucks eye contact.

[ashlesha]

There is always tension when I know a girl is into me, but most hold back and hold all their cards and barely flirt. ESI are not the most outwardly flirty and expressive women, but the awkwardness, total ignoring, sternness on their faces and refusal to look at me reveals their attraction. Quick and darting eye contact is about it from them. I can always tell they like me because the annoyance and feigned indifference on the face of a woman I have never done anything to and this hostility towards me isn't warranted......... always screams to me ESI. And for reasons I can't articulate, this is hugely attractive to me......that kind of reserve is sexy, it screams strength and authenticity to me. IDK if that makes sense. Maybe socionics can explain it.

Attempts at friendliness and subtly usually incur harsher avoidance and coyness, so I say fuck it and booom............I give them the eye contact. I can tell that they are doing the best they can, but they are so buttoned up and I need to let her know, kind of put her out of her misery and my own impatience drives that. But I crank up the tension huge first, sexual tension is not a bad thing. It really is a strange power dynamic. I think showing my vulnerability although subtle kind of reassures them to open up some. It's still eggshells ofcourse, but mutual attraction has been established which is half the battle of working thru each others initial fears.


@lungs......you think showing vulnerability falls under "thrilled when their partner shows parts of themselves out of character"? "Strong façade they can break down..........etc"?


Don't think I know how to give Awwww shucks eye contact.

yeah, sure, that sounds about right. but my experience definitely does not grant me the ability to be any sort of holy grail of gamma duality knowledge so i'm not the best person to listen to. i just liked the gist of what you were getting at cuz i respond well to getting a green light from the other person without them glomming on me. i wouldn't know, but i think LIEs probably have more of a 'strong facade' than the types ive dated; i kind of view things in those terms regardless of how much facade is there anyway though.

i do know if i'm giving someone the cold shoulder its either genuine dislike or habitual defense (which is surmounted maybe 1 in 100 times) and never because i LIKE them. i can smile at people i like, lol.

[hatesyardwork]

yeah, sure, that sounds about right. but my experience definitely does not grant me the ability to be any sort of holy grail of gamma duality knowledge so i'm not the best person to listen to. i just liked the gist of what you were getting at cuz i respond well to getting a green light from the other person without them glomming on me. i wouldn't know, but i think LIEs probably have more of a 'strong facade' than the types ive dated; i kind of view things in those terms regardless of how much facade is there anyway though.

I intimidate some women based off behavior they display around me. They weren't buying I was into them until I did something bold. Touching can be awkward, so eye contact is easier.

[hatesyardwork]

I do know if i'm giving someone the cold shoulder its either genuine dislike or habitual defense (which is surmounted maybe 1 in 100 times) and never because i LIKE them. i can smile at people i like, lol.

Often these women avoid me, or refuse to engage with me avoiding eye contact. Short and terse or silence much less a smile. It's strange, it's not how they engage with other people. They are very uncomfortable, it's another kind of vibe, not indifferent at all.

[ashlesha]

I intimidate some women based off behavior they display around me. A couple people suggested I should try being forward so girls would believe I was actually interested in them because I have a hard time conveying that verbally. Touching can be awkward, so eye contact is easier.

if you're intimidating, then that sort of behavior makes sense. what do you think it is about you that women find intimidating?

[Suzaku]

I had three ILI and one LIE analyze all of my facial expressions irl and via photos. They say that IRL I make the same exact expressions Firo does from Baccano (just gender swap him to female). LIE said it was absolutely uncanny.

So I can tell you what it is for me. Most of the time I look chill and nonchalant. Then there's that GONNA GET STABBED FACE. Because uh, mafia.

So I guess if I have these faces, GONNA GET HUGGED, GONNA GET STABBED.

[hatesyardwork]

if you're intimidating, then that sort of behavior makes sense. what do you think it is about you that women find intimidating?

The Dark Triad I'm afraid.

[Adam Strange]

I had three ILI and one LIE analyze all of my facial expressions irl and via photos. They say that IRL I make the same exact expressions Firo does from Baccano (just gender swap him to female). LIE said it was absolutely uncanny.

So I can tell you what it is for me. Most of the time I look chill and nonchalant. Then there's that GONNA GET STABBED FACE. Because uh, mafia.

So I guess if I have these faces, GONNA GET HUGGED, GONNA GET STABBED.

Rumor has it that there's some switching of aggressor roles in the LIE-ESI duality. I can't vouch for this myself.

[Suzaku]

Rumor has it that there's some switching of aggressor roles in the LIE-ESI duality. I can't vouch for this myself.

That and a certain ESI took too much Aikido and obsesses over too many mafia stories/things/violent mafia thoughts uuuuuh...

[hatesyardwork]

Rumor has it that there's some switching of aggressor roles in the LIE-ESI duality. I can't vouch for this myself.

I thought only I was struggling with this.

[Olimpia]

Rumor has it that there's some switching of aggressor roles in the LIE-ESI duality. I can't vouch for this myself.

Could you expand on that a little?

[carrina]

I thought only I was struggling with this.

Is there something preventing you from trying LSI. You're probably an aggressor

[carrina]

Could you expand on that a little?

The only way which this makes sense in socionics is if you consider that these types switch roles for which one is pursuing and which one is evading. The ESI should initiate interest, the LIE goes on hardcore pursuit. Also the LIE is aggressive and can have a temper just like ESI.

People shouldn't take this as advice to continue to pursue someone who wants you to leave them alone, that's stalking, not flirting

[hatesyardwork]

Is there something preventing you from trying LSI. You're probably an aggressor

I back off if they don't reciprocate, I am not looking for a challenge and added obstacles.

[Olimpia]

Could be ESI-LIE Duality.

[Adam Strange]

What an LIE needs from an ESI: Shelter from the storm.



Best musical version still on YouTube.

[ashlesha]

What an LIE needs from an ESI: Shelter from the storm.



Best musical version still on YouTube.

In particular those who are condemned to stagnation are often pronounced happy on the pretext that happiness consists in being at rest. This notion we reject, for our perspective is that of existentialist ethics. Every subject plays his part as such specifically through exploits or projects that serve as a mode of transcendence; he achieves liberty only through a continual reaching out towards other liberties. There is no justification for present existence other than its expansion into an indefinitely open future. Every time transcendence falls back into immanence, stagnation, there is a degradation of existence into the ‘en-sois’ – the brutish life of subjection to given conditions – and of liberty into constraint and contingence. This downfall represents a moral fault if the subject consents to it; if it is inflicted upon him, it spells frustration and oppression. In both cases it is an absolute evil. Every individual concerned to justify his existence feels that his existence involves an undefined need to transcend himself, to engage in freely chosen projects.

[lynn]

[Adam Strange]

Are you saying it's all about the Benjamin's? Damn.

Now that the secret's out, I expect the price to rise.

[ashlesha]

Thank God the NT is finally gone on business again! Being an immanent desire receptacle sure is exhausting.

[Kalinoche buenanoche]

@lungs be fighting the bots like a b0ss

[carrina]

I back off if they don't reciprocate, I am not looking for a challenge and added obstacles.

It seems like you know exactly what you want and exactly whether or not you're interested in others. You don't seem to forgive others for being slow moving in romance endeavors.

In gamma it's the se types that assume that you should know whether or not you want to sleep with someone, it's the nt's who need time to consider if someone is an interest. The se types are the ones that initiate the initial romantic vibes. NTs do not given up on their interests simply because they don't want to immediately bump uglies, as they are more likely to run for the hills when someone comes on too strong too soon.

I acknowledge that you're saying that you aren't a stalker but you are saying that you require sexual reciprocity to engage in a relationship.

I guess another disclaimer here, gulenkos love styles get all screwed up in ppl who are afraid to be themselves, but I don't think that's the case here.

[carrina]

"hurry the sex act" means each act, not initial relations

[carrina]

"hurry the sex act" means each act, not initial relations

[Adam Strange]

"hurry the sex act" means each act, not initial relations

After a slow start (initial relations), my LSI GF wondered why I wanted to have sex with her as soon as we saw each other. I thought it was just because she inspired me, but maybe it is type-related.

What this meant was, she could have sex whenever she wanted, and didn't have sex when she didn't want to, which, fortunately, wasn't often. We were pretty evenly matched in that area. It was a good deal for her and, because she was who she was, a good deal for me, too.

[Olimpia]

"Hurrying the sex act"... is this a Gamma thing?

This reminds me of an SEE woman who'd say she loves "quickies"...

[Adam Strange]

"Hurrying the sex act"... is this a Gamma thing?

This reminds me of an SEE woman who'd say she loves "quickies"...

It might be a Gamma thing. But maybe not. I read somewhere that a typical female takes 18 minutes to go from "Hey, are you busy right now?" to orgasm. My own experience does not contradict this an any significant way. I mean, if she's not busy, and not distracted and not worried, and likes you, and etc, etc, it seems to be pretty true.

However, this question obviously deserves more research.

One data point: I'd get into town at midnight sometimes, and she'd call beforehand at 11:30 and say "Can you come over for five minutes?"

[Olimpia]

It might be a Gamma thing. But maybe not. I read somewhere that a typical female takes 18 minutes to go from "Hey, are you busy right now?" to orgasm. My own experience does not contradict this an any significant way. I mean, if she's not busy, and not distracted and not worried, and likes you, and etc, etc, it seems to be pretty true.

However, this question obviously deserves more research.

As far as I know, is a quickie less than 18 minutes long... Usually less than 10, in fact.

[Adam Strange]

As far as I know, is a quickie less than 18 minutes long... Usually less than 10, in fact.

That's an SLE-IEI quickie.

[FDG]

The ESI should initiate interest, the LIE goes on hardcore pursuit. Also the LIE is aggressive and can have a temper just like ESI.

LIEs are still Te doms and ESIs are still Fi doms, erotic is not romantic, in everyday life LIEs are a lot more forward and pushy than ESIs (with mixed results, usually ESIs are better at dosing it right, but can also be too careful).

[Olimpia]

LIEs can be both pushy and uncertain of themselves, requiring soft but assured guidance or at least clear reciprocity.

I've found that Victim men tend to suffer a great deal from women giving too many mixed signals, the worse so if they are Ni subtype.