I'm so tired of people mistyping LIEs...

[Raver]

Let's be real here folks, not all types are created equal and some types are better than others and LIE is the best type you can possibly be and they are extremely rare. That is why everyone wants to be LIE, but are really just wanna be LIEs. How do I know this?

LIEs make the most money out of all the types, case closed. Pezzonovante is probably a multi-millionaire at the very least like all LIEs are. That is why ESI are their duals, since they are gold diggers that need LIEs to provide everything for them, it is a win-win :

 

[ashlesha]

4d Te is being a dumbass, you heard it here first folks

just giving it "broad expression"

its always been my case that people conveyed the "Te dom" label on Adam as a charity and that's precisely the problem, because it corrupts everything as such a manifest degradation of the concept and by proxy all Te valuers. my point has been people do this strictly in order to be polite and cover territory. my point is inasmuch as no one points out how stupid it is socionics is ultimately undermined because it perverts the image of an entire quadra or two and drives people away

yes you can skew things to include Adam. its not worth it, its counterproductive in time. that makes it wrong

Im not sure if function placement determines relative levels of skill between elements so much as focus/attitude (thinking about making a thread on this but I don't wanna spend too much time on the forum when I'm not bored at work lol). I guess the focus is on Te, if not the skill. What do you think he's skilled at?

[Adam Strange]

Im not sure if function placement determines relative levels of skill between elements so much as focus/attitude (thinking about making a thread on this but I don't wanna spend too much time on the forum when I'm not bored at work lol). I guess the focus is on Te, if not the skill. What do you think he's skilled at?

You could just ask me.

I have a good singing voice and I set the city record in long jump many years ago. I also guessed the number of jelly beans in a jar at the library, and won the jar as the prize.

[Bertrand]

Im not sure if function placement determines relative levels of skill between elements so much as focus/attitude (thinking about making a thread on this but I don't wanna spend too much time on the forum when I'm not bored at work lol). I guess the focus is on Te, if not the skill. What do you think he's skilled at?

Adam is good at being the front line

[ashlesha]

You could just ask me.

I have a good singing voice and I set the city record in long jump many years ago. I also guessed the number of jelly beans in a jar at the library, and won the jar as the prize.

Lol, I was going to suggest persistently working to form positive interpersonal relationships. I'm sure the unassuming optimistism works on some people.

[squark]

its always been my case that people conferred the "Te dom" label on Adam as a charity and that's precisely the problem, because it corrupts everything as a manifest degradation of the concept and by proxy all Te valuers. my point has been people do this strictly in order to be polite and cover territory. my point is inasmuch as no one points out how stupid it is socionics is ultimately undermined because it perverts the image of an entire quadra or two and drives people away

yes you can skew things to include Adam. no, its not worth it--its counterproductive in time. that makes it wrong

to characterize this as being the essence of Te dominance is to unravel the very logical fabric of the Jungian intuition underlying socionics, but people can't see it, because all they can see is his stupid Fe begging

Maybe I'm just in the business of burning down idols - in this case your Te idol. I'm joking, but maybe that'll be a positive side effect. I'm not just being polite to him. If there was something besides Te that I thought fit him better, I'd say so.

[Adam Strange]

Lol, I was going to suggest persistently working to form positive interpersonal relationships. I'm sure the unassuming optimistism works on some people.

Yes, it does.

It also helps that I don't try to make other people feel worse than they already do, and I believe that sometimes, everyone could use a helping hand. Only the first is a skill, though. The second is a belief.

[Bertrand]

Maybe I'm just in the business of burning down idols - in this case your Te idol. I'm joking, but maybe that'll be a positive side effect. I'm not just being polite to him. If there was something besides Te that I thought fit him better, I'd say so.

my whole point has always been that people thinking Te fits him best is a sham and a problem. you're just a testament to the sham working. there's a reason adam and betas all get along so well

and its not that hes the face of LIE or Te

It also helps that I don't try to make other people feel worse than they already do

2d ethics of emotion (norms) maybe Si in there

I believe that sometimes, everyone could use a helping hand.

does anyone not believe this?

[ashlesha]

does anyone not believe this?

Lol sink or swim bitches

[Bertrand]

not sure if Fi or Ni polr

it sounds like the one dimensional cliches Trump comes up with to try and appear human, and then you realize there's absolutely no substance to it

then they go back to spewing repugnant shit and for whatever reason they feel they've struck some kind of balance

"he's so terrible it must be Te" yup, that is adaptation to a system

[Singu]

When stuff is presented in a Te way, it's like I can read the original source, or see it with my own eyes, and it is there for me to do with as I please. Ti is like I'm expected to take a step along with the person presenting the information - there's an inference or something - and I find myself skeptical and suspicious of that step being taken. It isn't that I'm stupid or illogical and can't follow it. It's more that I don't trust people to remain objective when they take that step. I'm afraid they're intentionally leading the information somewhere, or maybe have an unintentional bias. I find myself stopping each time there is a step taken and thinking about it rather than reading straight through and just taking the information in. Whereas once I find a source trustworthy, I pretty much trust that source. Not blindly - my trust can be lost too. I don't know why but it's hard to explain this stuff in words.

That's my view as a Ti PoLR person.

There seems to be some relationship or trend between efficiency and having Te in the ego block, but Te isn't defined by efficiency. Maybe looking at data in that way leads to it?

Maybe this has more to do with cognitive bias, almost everyone cares about the "source" or one's own beliefs or the conclusion first, then evaluate the strength of its argument (if that ever happens at all).

Belief bias is the tendency to judge the strength of arguments based on the plausibility of their conclusion rather than how strongly they support that conclusion. A person is more likely to accept arguments that supports a conclusion that aligns with our values, beliefs and prior knowledge, while rejecting counter arguments to the conclusion. Belief bias is an extremely common and therefore significant form of error; we can easily be blinded by our beliefs and reach the wrong conclusion. Belief bias has been found to influence various reasoning tasks, including conditional reasoning, relation reasoning and transitive reasoning.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belief_bias

[Bertrand]

that's exactly right, Te has become this stereotype of shit reasoning

[Singu]

my whole point has always been that people thinking Te fits him best is a sham and a problem. you're just a testament to the sham working. there's a reason adam and betas all get along so well

Maybe he just gets along with everyone. Of course, getting along with everyone only proves that he's not a real Gamma. Catch-22.

You're not even entertaining the possibility that there is even a slimmer of chance that he could be a LIE. And yet you're demanding that he should be more "open minded" and consider other possibilities, that you yourself conveniently exempt yourself from.

Face it Bertrand, you're a hypocrite. And your entire argument is largely circular, as always.

[ashlesha]

That.... isn't at all how I read slackers post. I just saw that she wanted to be able to follow the reasoning without having to take anything on faith. I really don't understand how you got belief bias out of that. Weird.

[Singu]

that's exactly right, Te has become this stereotype of shit reasoning

Which is ironic, because you're using that very kind of "shit" reasoning. You have already concluded that Adam is not an LIE, and you're coming up with all sorts of justifications for it later.

[Singu]

That.... isn't at all how I read slackers post. I just saw that she wanted to be able to follow the reasoning without having to take anything on faith. I really don't understand how you got belief bias out of that. Weird.

This is what she said:

"When stuff is presented in a Te way, it's like I can read the original source, or see it with my own eyes, and it is there for me to do with as I please.
...
Whereas once I find a source trustworthy, I pretty much trust that source. Not blindly - my trust can be lost too. I don't know why but it's hard to explain this stuff in words."

[ashlesha]

Yeah, I can read. I still don't see that.

[Bertrand]

That.... isn't at all how I read slackers post. I just saw that she wanted to be able to follow the reasoning without having to take anything on faith. I really don't understand how you got belief bias out of that. Weird.

people just view non Ti valuing as inherently biased. Adam plays right into this, so he's beloved by the Te haters. The idea that Te could be less biased is a foreign concept, but to us it seems like Ti takes just as much on faith, just at a different point. Its how squark's post was well reasoned, but firmly entrenched in the system and biased in that regard. But good luck getting someone like singu or the beta collective to acknowledge that. No the bias is against Adam, it cannot be that people have erroneously biased for him

ultimately belief bias describes both forms of unfounded inference, but singularity has a habit of assuming these concepts exist to serve his agenda and could only mean what he narrowly applies it toward, which is itself a product of bias. the entire point of socionics is to get outside this way of thinking, but you see it get dragged back down into it constantly. singu would probably view the fact that it can as a testament to its own untruth, hence he's doing God's work by punching holes in it in this way

in this sense the fact that Adam "breaks" the system is not Adam's fault but his virtue, and he is entitled to be whatever he wants because inasmuch as socionics hasn't "stopped" him, it deserves to be mired in confusion and forgotten

[ashlesha]

that's exactly right, Te has become this stereotype of shit reasoning

That was Te from the perspective of an iee before it became about arbitrarily giving orders. Maybe it's my also low d Te but it works for me and provides an alternative viewpoint to the "trust me, I'm smart" version of Te.

[Singu]

people just view non Ti valuing as inherently biased. Adam plays right into this, so he's beloved by the Te haters. The idea that Te could be less biased is a foreign concept, but to us it seems like Ti takes just as much on faith, just at a different point. Its how squark's post was well reasoned, but firmly entrenched in the system and biased in that regard. But good luck getting someone like singu or the beta collective to acknowledge that. No the bias is against Adam, it cannot be that people have erroneously biased for him

I said everyone is like that, noob.

[Bertrand]

That was Te from the perspective of an iee before it became about arbitrarily giving orders. Maybe it's my also low d Te but it works for me and provides an alternative viewpoint to the "trust me, I'm smart" version of Te.

right I'm saying the characterization of Te from this IEE was subsequently labeled a self justification and product of bias, when in fact IEEs are probably the least biased people there are--because people view Te as inherently prejudicial. its like they don't understand how it could be objective. so when Adam comes along and does his stupid Te mimickry, it plays right into the hands of this belief by being completely unhelpful and obviously biased. He shows them the face of Te they want to see, so they can comfortably compartmentalize gamma away, without really having to reckon with the reality. Its like we live in a gamma society. the psychological pressure that creates for people to rationalize away anything indicating a personal shortcoming is huge. its like escapist fiction to simply cope in that way, chalk it all up to the insanity of the world and cloister in an echo chamber. its diametrically opposed to the spirit of what Jung developed typology for

[Singu]

right I'm saying the characterization of Te from this IEE was subsequently labeled a self justification and product of bias, when in fact IEEs are probably the least biased people there are--because people view Te as inherently prejudicial. its like they don't understand how it could be objective. so when Adam comes along and does his stupid Te mimickry, it plays right into the hands of this belief by being completely unhelpful and obviously biased. He shows them the face of Te they want to see, so they can comfortably compartmentalize gamma away, without really having to reckon with the reality. Its like we live in a gamma society. the psychological pressure that creates for people to rationalize away anything indicating a personal shortcoming is huge. its like escapist fiction to simply cope in that way, chalk it all up to the insanity of the world and cloister in an echo chamber. its diametrically opposed to the spirit of what Jung developed typology for

Just idiocy and moving the goalpost. No where did I say it had anything to do with IEEs or Te, I said that it's a product of general human cognition, the tendency to fall into the error of this kind of thinking.

[Bertrand]

not all bias is error, it presupposes that only the literal arguments presented are to be weighed in the final analysis. but people bring their experience and common sense into things and they can't do otherwise. sometimes it creates a negative outcome sometimes it creates a better outcome. the point is if you presuppose that the outcome must flow only from the literal arguments presented then it begs the question as to what the proper result is and where the error lies. we need a criterion that assesses "error" in terms of something other than rote adherence to the linguistic constructions and views things in terms of their practical output. in that sense a biased rejection of an argument that may well be "true" or "most supported" from a robotic standpoint, could in fact be the best thing for everyone involved. to call that an error seems wrong. to not allow for that possibility seems insane. to frame all such thinking as categorically flawed really does presuppose that results aren't a consideration because the result would be disastrous

[lavos]

The original goal of the thread, which was for people to skim through pezzonovante's posts to get an idea of how the LIE type sounds online has degraded into a charade of veiled insults, sophistry, and harangement towards certain individuals. So to avoid needless drama, I'm closing the thread.