LIIs and SLEs intellectual independence and not liking to adopt others' views

[Disturbed]

There are both good and bad things about the LIIs and SLEs independence of thought. The good is that they're among the most independent in the socion; they usually don't need help, I admire them for that.

The bad is that they really seem to hate adopting others' views or opinions, and they often wind up being wrong because of that... they tend to hold onto their views no matter how incorrect they are and not likely to accept what others' say as true or even quick to sort through what they already know to verify whether someone else's statement is true. At the same time, they sometimes change their minds, but it seems out of sympathy or emotional states more than factual operation.

Has anyone else noticed that?

Anyway, I'm pretty opinionated and I would rather go by my own experience, but I do accept others' views and opinions sometimes, although at other times (e.g., about me thinking the effects of the patent system and that it should be abolished and never replaced with anything at the federal level) I'm pretty rigid. I'm often aware that I could be wrong; not 100% of the time.

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

Seems smart to always go by your own experiences since you are living your life and nobody else etc. People that always need the approval of what everybody else thinks or says really annoys me/clashes with me. Changing your opinion based on emotion and not fact isn't a big deal to me either- proves that they are real humans with feelings and not heartless robots or something? lol. This thing is probably a Te valuing thing really I think and how Gammas value Te and how Alphas & Betas do not. I thought for sure you were ESI btw - now it says you are LSI or LSE? Weird.

To be fair it's only a 'bad' thing to me I guess if they are so independent-minded they end up being narcissistic or criminally vulgar- but then again there is things a lot worse to me than being a criminal and like a typical IEI I have a soft spot for bad boys anyway usually lololol. And LIIs can be annoying if they are stubborn about health issues or stopping unhealthy lifestyle habits due to Se polr I've noticed.... but in general it's a good thing that people listen to their own voice and not the Karen Cult Klan etc.

[Karbonkel]

Fiiiiiine i'll take the bait, what's wrong with the patent system?

[PinKDiGiT18]

Yes. With SLE it’s the worst because they are my conflictors and immediately write off any thought I express as irrelevant. I think LII-Ne is more open-minded than LII-Ti. Especially with an sp-first LII, you would need to move a planet to change their mind on something.

[ouronis]

I'm not really like this and I don't think SLEs are, but LIIs can definitely develop some LSI-like dogmatism.

I will say, I can be certain enough that I'm comfortable directing others through my beliefs, but it takes a lot for me to get there.

[Toro]

There is a difference between the two, one bases their ideas in reality and the other pulls them out of their ass .

[AWellArmedCat]

I don't think I've ever found SLEs' opinions hard to influence, but maybe that's because they're my duals and want my sort of influence anyways

[Tarnished]

I think Alpha NT are more open minded. Even the most strong headed LII seem to easy reasoning with. Maybe I'm NT so comunicating with them isn't so hard, as long as it's not about personal values.

Beta ST, with their Ne unvalued, seem more hard to deal with. Ni-Ti combo by Beta just like Ni-Fi combo by Gamma, can make one very strong willed.

[VewyScawwyNawcissist]

Nazi SLE it's his opinion and no one can change it.

[Disturbed]

Seems smart to always go by your own experiences since you are living your life and nobody else etc. People that always need the approval of what everybody else thinks or says really annoys me/clashes with me. Changing your opinion based on emotion and not fact isn't a big deal to me either- proves that they are real humans with feelings and not heartless robots or something? lol. This thing is probably a Te valuing thing really I think and how Gammas value Te and how Alphas & Betas do not. I thought for sure you were ESI btw - now it says you are LSI or LSE? Weird.

To be fair it's only a 'bad' thing to me I guess if they are so independent-minded they end up being narcissistic or criminally vulgar- but then again there is things a lot worse to me than being a criminal and like a typical IEI I have a soft spot for bad boys anyway usually lololol. And LIIs can be annoying if they are stubborn about health issues or stopping unhealthy lifestyle habits due to Se polr I've noticed.... but in general it's a good thing that people listen to their own voice and not the Karen Cult Klan etc.

It is smarter to live by your own experience. But what I mean, is that it comes to the point of narcissism with LIIs and SLEs, and despite being logical types, it's where they go by their emotions when deciding things rather than sound logic or facts.

Fiiiiiine i'll take the bait, what's wrong with the patent system?

Thank you. It's terrible, because it allows a price monopoly and so it drives up prices and reduces innovation. It rewards assholes who make bad or average products compared to what could be and everyone else has to pay for it.

[Disturbed]

I'm not really like this and I don't think SLEs are, but LIIs can definitely develop some LSI-like dogmatism.

I will say, I can be certain enough that I'm comfortable directing others through my beliefs, but it takes a lot for me to get there.

I see LIIs as more dogmatic than LSIs. LSIs are more skeptical really. And LSI-Ti generally don't have a crystallized worldview that can be coherently expressed like LSI-Se do.

I think Alpha NT are more open minded. Even the most strong headed LII seem to easy reasoning with. Maybe I'm NT so comunicating with them isn't so hard, as long as it's not about personal values.

Beta ST, with their Ne unvalued, seem more hard to deal with. Ni-Ti combo by Beta just like Ni-Fi combo by Gamma, can make one very strong willed.

Except only Alpha NTs aren't very open-minded because their personal values and what they like and don't like often over-rule any logic and evidence for them. Yet they never or almost never admit that it's because they like it or that it's for their emotional state.

[ouronis]

I see LIIs as more dogmatic than LSIs. LSIs are more skeptical really. And LSI-Ti generally don't have a crystallized worldview that can be coherently expressed like LSI-Se do.

Except only Alpha NTs aren't very open-minded because their personal values and what they like and don't like often over-rule any logic and evidence for them. Yet they never or almost never admit that it's because they like it or that it's for their emotional state.

If you mean that LSIs are skeptical to the point they don't accept anybody's opinion and therefore continue to operate with whatever their previous opinion was, then I agree. I think the reason LSIs and LIIs can share this is because of base Ti, but the creative Ne should have a good chance to produce a substantially more open person as opposed to the linear, uncertainty-fearing Ne PoLR

[hangsenator]

There are both good and bad things about the LIIs and SLEs independence of thought. The good is that they're among the most independent in the socion; they usually don't need help, I admire them for that.

The bad is that they really seem to hate adopting others' views or opinions, and they often wind up being wrong because of that... they tend to hold onto their views no matter how incorrect they are and not likely to accept what others' say as true or even quick to sort through what they already know to verify whether someone else's statement is true. At the same time, they sometimes change their minds, but it seems out of sympathy or emotional states more than factual operation.

Has anyone else noticed that? Spider Solitaire

Anyway, I'm pretty opinionated and I would rather go by my own experience, but I do accept others' views and opinions sometimes, although at other times (e.g., about me thinking the effects of the patent system and that it should be abolished and never replaced with anything at the federal level) I'm pretty rigid. I'm often aware that I could be wrong; not 100% of the time.

Yes.SLE is the worst. They are my conflictors, and they immediately delete any thoughts I have as irrelevant.
LII-Ne seems more open-minded to me than LIII-Ti.You would have to move a planet, especially with an sp-1 LII.

[Stray Cat]

There are both good and bad things about the LIIs and SLEs independence of thought. The good is that they're among the most independent in the socion; they usually don't need help, I admire them for that.

The bad is that they really seem to hate adopting others' views or opinions, and they often wind up being wrong because of that... they tend to hold onto their views no matter how incorrect they are and not likely to accept what others' say as true or even quick to sort through what they already know to verify whether someone else's statement is true. At the same time, they sometimes change their minds, but it seems out of sympathy or emotional states more than factual operation.

Has anyone else noticed that?

Anyway, I'm pretty opinionated and I would rather go by my own experience, but I do accept others' views and opinions sometimes, although at other times (e.g., about me thinking the effects of the patent system and that it should be abolished and never replaced with anything at the federal level) I'm pretty rigid. I'm often aware that I could be wrong; not 100% of the time.

It sounds like you're saying a person ought to change his/her view based on another person's (or maybe through the consensus of a valued social group's) opinion.

[Sol]

From types point.
Higher criticism exists in strong functions. And in weak functions people either easily change opinions or irrationally stuck in them - show childish behavior. Other views are processed more appropriately in strong functions.

In logical regions as Jung types theory and significant part of practice, - base T types are predisposed be most critical and correct. Also helps specific knowledge and practice in those regions, certainly.

The main problem with criticism in logical themes exists with F types, which besides harder processing such info, bring much of emotional prejustice to what to think.