What exactly qualifies as a secret according to Strat.? Other Socionics sources say that Fi POLR types tend not to confess their real private feelings for fear of cross-examination.Originally Posted by Stratievskaya
What exactly qualifies as a secret according to Strat.? Other Socionics sources say that Fi POLR types tend not to confess their real private feelings for fear of cross-examination.
Well, cough it up then.
[Today 07:57 AM] Raver: Life is a ride that lasts very long, but still a ride. It is a dream that we have yet to awaken from.
It's hard to find a love through every shade of grey.
Oh man I read it like a decade ago. I think it might have been Rick (he was a professional Socionist who used to post here) who said it somewhere.
IIRC he also said that Fi Creative types exploit every opportunity they can find to talk about their personal lives. I can't vouch for any of the claims, but this one seems to hold up for a couple of SEEs I know (sample size = 2, so what do I know).
ESE's secrets being outed:
Yeah I dunno. My personal experience is that Strati is right. Alpha doesn’t think secrets are usually that big of a deal. Just look at the IEs of Fi and Se in themselves and it should be self-evident.
The fact that you’re asking what a secret is attests to that even more @xerx .
[Today 07:57 AM] Raver: Life is a ride that lasts very long, but still a ride. It is a dream that we have yet to awaken from.
It's hard to find a love through every shade of grey.
It’s not that alphas can’t keep secrets, but you can’t count on it unless it seems OBVIOUS TO THEM in some way that it’s a secret, using Fe Si socially accepted norm clues or implied in a way where they understand it to be an important secret to keep AND why it’s important to keep it (which sometimes they don’t for one of these). It’s not that other Quadras or types can’t mess up in this regard either, but this is just a slight overlay to their behaviour that’s a direct manifestation of the valued IEs in this case.
[Today 07:57 AM] Raver: Life is a ride that lasts very long, but still a ride. It is a dream that we have yet to awaken from.
It's hard to find a love through every shade of grey.
If you can’t discuss socionics or human behaviour without getting defensive, then just give up IMO.
[Today 07:57 AM] Raver: Life is a ride that lasts very long, but still a ride. It is a dream that we have yet to awaken from.
It's hard to find a love through every shade of grey.
They don't think in secrets or personal info as such. Maybe due Democratic quadra and Fe. They don't consider their behavior as being indiscrete either.
Last edited by Hope; 07-22-2018 at 02:52 AM.
Very true. I've seen and experienced stuff that Strat says too, then, probably her interpretation of motivations could be wrong, but in general her description of behavior is spot on cus her own Se.
Also I don't get why ppl deny the "ugly" stuff, as if people/types were perfect. And I havent seen any single "reason" to support why her or my observations are wrong supposedly, beyond just "no" because "no", or efforts to try to sweep bad traits under the carpet or to other quadras/elements.
Last edited by Hope; 07-06-2018 at 03:59 AM.
And they act as if it isn’t obvious too
[Today 07:57 AM] Raver: Life is a ride that lasts very long, but still a ride. It is a dream that we have yet to awaken from.
It's hard to find a love through every shade of grey.
The ugly parts of LIE's in Strat's descriptions are actually what I recognized in myself and seemed to not be mentioned on any other website I had previously seen. Which is why I joined this forum.
I'm not a fan of Strati's quadra descriptions tbh, I find them too generalized in their aim to give an image to every quadra; the descriptions that result are too contextual, in that way I can recognize myself in many different types, for different situations. I definitely don't have only the negative traits of "my type", wtv it is. I find some confusion with how she justifies the quadras using the valued elements, but then she's forced to give contradictory labels to the functions that don't really make sense going by the theory. Now contradiction per se isn't the problem, considering we're dealing with the ever changing human behaviour, the problem is that we can't classify people (!) based on stereotypes that don't apply. To me the theory> the descriptions.
It doesn’t confuse me. Her descriptions match up with reality to me, almost always.
[Today 07:57 AM] Raver: Life is a ride that lasts very long, but still a ride. It is a dream that we have yet to awaken from.
It's hard to find a love through every shade of grey.
I wish socionics had a wider influence so we could read the perspectives of other quadras. I think strat's quadral complexes articles are really accurate but there's some wading necessary because she's viewing it through a very specific lens, not just gamma, but her respective sociotype. I waver on my opinion of her but regardless of how I feel about her other articles (i.e. specific sociotypes) I consistently enjoy her observations in the quadral complexes articles
I've known representatives of many sociotypes to act like they belong in different quadras, sometimes even their opposing quadra, so the difference doesn't lie in how they act in a fleeting moment, it's how they act afterwards which defines them as representatives of their home quadra. I've known Si-egos to lose control of themselves momentarily, and sometimes this breads unintentional conflict, and sometimes they can even resemble Se-egos due to their comfort in the physical realm, but they strive to mend the situation afterwards in a way that's less common with Se-egos. the wholeness of the external situation is commonly associated with Ne-egos (especially Ne-leads) but that mentality is spread across all Pe-egos, it's just that Ne-egos are the type to tackle the little spaces in the situation that nobody else is willing to tackle i.e. playing devil's advocate, while Se-egos want to remain in control of whichever situation they're in, which is why they're less likely to make amends like Si-egos since that'd require giving up control (contrast that with Si-egos who would rather remain in control of themselves, Si vs Se). of course it's not necessarily the "wholeness" of the external situation in the case of Se, but they're both still trying to fill in missing spaces that they perceive in the external situation, just in different channels, and I imagine that's why it seems like Fe is prone to conflict because they're always trying to fill emotional gaps (whether real or imaginary) in the external situation, so you say I love you, and Fe replies with I love you too, but let's imagine you're not saying anything, then this triggers a series of "tests" aimed to gauge where you land emotionally, and they continue to escalate these "tests" until you react, and that's what creates the impression of thriving on conflict because the conflict is happening in an arena that you're not skilled at maneuvering around, which will be perceived at different levels of "painfulness" depending on the Fi-valuer in question, and which channel Fe is hitting i.e. Fi-creatives usually know how to reciprocate without actually reciprocating, hence Fe demonstrative because it's like a knee-jerk reaction, but they know it's not really anything more than a little social game they play to remain afloat. I imagine these "tests" come in various forms i.e. if your PoLR is Se then it'd be those "tests" where they exact volitional pressure on you, but sometimes they may not even be acting that way purposefully, it's by virtue of their own existence that it seems like they're "hitting" you on that channel. I think that's why our reactions to PoLR hits are usually disproportionate to the situation, we were never paying attention to it, but now we're in a situation where it's coming at us from various angles, so we hit back with our mobilizing function, but it's mixed in with a bit of our PoLR despite our autism in this area
so in the case of Fe PoLR hits, their reaction is rooted in a personal sentiment, Fi, but it comes forth as Fe, outward emotional expression, if that makes sense, but it looks very clumsy. I think it's like they're not used to assigning words to their feelings, but now they have no choice, so they have to scramble around to find the correct terminology to express something that they don't usually express, so either they hit too high or too low (i.e. "I hate you" or "I love you" even if neither is anywhere near accurate to how they're truly feeling inside) so this is a problem for several reasons, but I think the main problem is that it might seem like an inadvertent invitation to continue hitting them on that channel, like how Se-leads might interpret Se PoLR "overreacting" to their application of Se as something like a victim response, like "ooh stop hitting me *lightly slaps arm back* tehee" or whatever
Growing up with alpha irrational parents i was always asked to keep things secret yet they (alpha irrationals) never cared that they devulged information themselves.
For instance i was asked to never discuss family finances and wasn't allowed to even discuss them with my closest friends.
Yet once i wrote a very heart-felt letter to my mother when i was away, the message of which was meant for het and her alone, and she went and shared it with everyone at her workplace. And it wasn't like it was a child's letter u can muse at either, i was 18.
All in all there *might* be something to this quadra complex, I've only read about it superficially.
Same. I usually appreciate@Rebelondeck 's posts but that statement was just projection i suspect.
Re: gossip, i don't really care if people are gossiping around me i just won't participate. Also sometimes gossip can be lethal and like u say depressing.
@niffer I agree with you (and Strat) in that Fe valuers and especially Alphas (ESEs in particular) prefer to openly discuss things, and can gossip in the sense of being nosy about things that aren't necessarily their business. This is definitely a product of Fe leading / Fi ignoring or something similar. The problem I have is with interpreting this as a desire to create conflict ("seeking to have and perpetuate in their lives some kind of conflict or controversy supported by emotions of contempt and sowing seeds of discord among people.") whereas it's just plain nosiness and not caring about FiSe boundaries.
Let's word it different.
I'm not saying that Fe Alpha egos try to fight ppl, which seems to be what some here are understanding hence their references to Se egos like SEE.
I'm saying that some alpha Fe that I've met can cause indirectly conflict and controversy, by talking behind others ppls back for whom they feel certain resentment, aversion or suspicion, resentment, aversion or suspicion that can be justified or not (thats not the point and that depends on the specific situation).
Then, being very group oriented and speaking up their minds and being very vocal about their thoughts (that's what Strat says, Alpha has the closed mouth complex which indicates that they try to word stuff very often especially extroverts ethicals, but can happens with introverts too), they create division (unwillingly possibly).
Finally, I like alphas a lot, so no, I dont say any of this being biased. Most of my friends are alpha and I've said that before, I enjoy their company, my best friends are ILE, LII and ESE. ESEs I've known have been pretty supportive and nice ppl and good friends. Then, I find weird that ppl take some of this as if it were some kind of personal criticism, and its hilarious that some try to "clean up" by throwing the "dirt" up to someone else or making comparisons, when that was totally unrelated to the topic and then they try to show themselves as some kind of socionists sjws, since there are threads about other elements and ppl talking about other types and no one (neither those person(s)) is/are doing an scandal about it.
That's was all about.
yeah repressed Te and intuition of time means they often operate so as to make things worse in the long run, but they have a merry ol' time along the way
in a certain sense everyone is guilty of this since no one is perfect, but alpha to some extent is worse in that light. its why they inevitably get displaced by forces that can use that to their advantage and manipulate them
I think that Fe actually is about expressing and"manage" emotions in others and environments. So I dont find wild to say that Fe types, especially leads can actually influence others (individual or groupal) emotions or behaviors with their words or that they have an interest to communicate or arrange group tendencies more than other types aka they are naturally influential for good or wrong and depending in the person conscious or unconscious agenda. Maybe its not due agenda, its just that Fe express naturally and expression is its main goal so the consequences aroused from that are just collateral damage. Idk.
Last edited by Hope; 06-23-2018 at 06:54 PM.
yeah I think Fe Si is often exactly that, whatever ends up resulting in the sense of extroverted logic via time is all collateral damage. they often just have a "we'll cross that bridge when we come to it attitude" and the Ti Ne types try to build in "harm prevention" to their system, but only indirectly--the most important thing is the convincingness of the logic at that very moment. i.e.: they don't like uncertainty so they don't build it in, since they find that inferior to definite answers especially when it comes to giving their duals leeway--they want the boxes to be set and not susceptible to transformations over time. ignoring that this is inevitable is what leads them to being displaced and their relative lack of preparation (they are not strategic in the way beta/gamma are)... but its not so bad, everything runs its course and alpha always comes back around
Okay, yes, I have seen some ESEs do that. Usually in a kind of storytelling fashion, as in they'll report the story of what happened to them and what this other person did. Something like, "I was walking down the street, minding my own business, and then out of nowhere she stepped right in front of me and. . . " It comes across not as malice or intentional harm, but can end up causing drama, especially if they play up the story making the other person a bit more of the villain and themselves more the innocent.
yeah their 1D Ni makes their view on time very unique, which usually means they sever the time axis unwittingly at precise points (in essence setting the frame) in creating their own personal narratives in ways that always make them out to be the good guy and the other person bad. the reality is they were probably oblivious to a lot leading up to and the consequences of their actions that followed, which may have informed and justified the other person in a way the ESE can't fully comprehend. its not so much that they try and intentionally distort time to make themselves out as the good guy (this is more LII/SLE), its that they legit don't know and simply retell events as it appeared to them. part of the Ne HA is living in a world where you're perfect or at least trying to be, but half of what makes the possible is just sheer ignorance of time
^@Crystal She's right actually sadly sort-of all types are prone to conflict and resentment because everyone is prone to feeling immense frustration when others exhibit values totally contrary to their norms yet want them imposed. You don't think your values and expectations are wrong because they are natural and normal to you - rather you are sensitive to all the contradictory values you get exposed to.Don’t you think this OP is a bit ironic?
However, feelers seem to have a hard time taking emotions out of the "conflict", especially if they have the extroverted subtypes Dominant & Creative; they'll aggravate the conflict. Normalisers and Harmonisers, especially if they are introverted, tend to distance themselves from conflict - avoidance is how they deal with the world (and when it's not possible then they become conflict-prone).
If your quadra is dominant (beta) sadly you are really conflict-prone especially if you are a feeler, but perhaps there might not be resentment since, after the conflict, the bridges just get burnt, or there's no time for resentment either if you don't have a fibre of tolerance in you since the conflict never ends.
That's more plausible than what you said initially (which was very different). However, it's still not necessarily clear that you're describing what I would call Alpha SF behavior.
Honestly I didn't take what you said personally, I have no problem with people criticizing Alphas as long as it's accurate. But my sense is that Gamma SFs may be somewhat poorly understood on this forum and so may be confused with other types.Finally, I like alphas a lot, so no, I dont say any of this being biased. Most of my friends are alpha and I've said that before, I enjoy their company, my best friends are ILE, LII and ESE. ESEs I've known have been pretty supportive and nice ppl and good friends. Then, I find weird that ppl take some of this as if it were some kind of personal criticism, and its hilarious that some try to "clean up" by throwing the "dirt" up to someone else or making comparisons, when that was totally unrelated to the topic and then they try to show themselves as some kind of socionists sjws, since there are threads about other elements and ppl talking about other types and no one (neither those person(s)) is/are doing an scandal about it.
Hotel, you misunderstood what I said initially, I didnt said something different. Second I can differentiate very well between gamas SF and Alphas, physically and behaviorally. Third, If I've to write 20 posts to explain to some members what others understood with just 1, its clearly not my fault but a more than evident denial by their part.
Last edited by Hope; 07-21-2018 at 08:41 PM.
idk I thought the same thing of many Fi types.
I think conflict is Fe but resentment is Fi, as your post kind of made Fi valuers too much as angelic angels and the Fe as demons.... which is understandable I guess cuz we're all the good guys in our own stories/nobody wants to be the bad guy etc. But it doesn't seem very fair, to me nobody is more 'at peace' than any other or they would be in another dimension and not here with me in this gutter skin place. Fi implies this dimension exists outside but the root reality of objective Fe/Se trumps that, its like- this is the location of where the 7/11 is no matter how you feel about it, you whiny Fi bitch.
You don't even know what opinion I have about fi types.
No, maybe it will be more noticeable when they are in conflict, but they're aren't more prone to it.
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