Most Common ITR in DV/Abusive Relationships? [TRIGGER WARNING]

[arigato]

It could be that there's a trend in the formation of an abuser, rather than the abuse resulting from the relationship between the abuser and the victim. I've noticed that people with supervisor parents can be abusive, even to their duals.

I've supervisor mother and I'm not abusive. My mom is rather sweet and accepting of her kids. I used to react poorly to some of her comments but I try to have patience now. Though, I know an IEI with supervisee and conflict parents and she's rather abusive.

I think what you might be noticing is that people who grew up with negative relationships with their parents tend to not be well-adjusted and are more likely to have unhealthy relationships later on life. In this case ESEs tend to be naturally maternal whereas LIEs and LSEs are not the most nurturing types (especially to someone with Te polr) so I can see how that could cause damage for an IEI. But I don't think being abusive is type related because anyone can grow up troubled depending on their circumstances.

[Dr PissBender]

@Shytan, IMO, you nailed it. The SLI is always a day late and a mile away but is very, very faithful, while the IEE is like

I've always been faithful.

[Dr PissBender]

No, I don't think that IEE's are unfaithful, exactly. But they do have loads of Ne, which to me is the essence of alternate actions and never coming to a final conclusion, which, I think, can be dangerous to most relationships.

I know four IEE's, all woman, ranging from decades of interaction time to hours. They are:

1. My SLI ex-wife's sister, an IEE-Ne. She was married to an LSE for a while and had two kids, then left him because he was a "conservative asshole". Next, she had an asshole lawyer for a BF for many years. I don't know his type, but I remember that I didn't particularly like him. Then, she married an EII who worked as a truck driver and a photographer and a preacher and really is waiting to find out what he wants to do. She doesn't complain about him, but it doesn't seem like it's the best situation for either of them.

2. An IEE-Fi. She is married to an ILE and has two kids and she can't wait to get out of the marriage and has asked me how to find an SLI-Te, since she met my son and father and they are both SLI-Te's. She isn't cheating on the ILE, but she's disappointed that he never "grew up". And man, is she ever ready for a new man.

3. An IEE-Fi woman I know from work. She is married to an archaeology professor whom she complains about sometimes, but she does not find him problematic enough to seriously look elsewhere. She does spend all her spare time at work talking with a divorced SLI-Si guy.

4. An IEE who works at my father's nursing home. I was encouraging her to talk to my SLI father more (because they'd both benefit) and I was telling her what kind of guy I thought she'd like. I described an SLI. She listened, and then said that that a guy like that sounded better than any of her previous husbands.

The dynamic that I've seen between SLI's and IEE's is that the SLI does his own thing; carpentry, car repair, saving money for a rainy day, while basically ignoring women. Absolutely ignores them in any observable romantic sense. He might be a total gentleman and act towards women with great consideration, but he's not going to take any action. I've asked my SLI son how he feels about women, and he said that most of them are trouble. He's not gay, incidentally. He's just discerning and holds his cards very close to his chest.
The IEE has to break through these defenses. Her strategy is randomness and the unexpected, including what seem to be overt sexual offers. She might do this with every guy, BUT, if the guy responds in any way except by being inert, she shuts him down and then forever ignores him. That sexiness act is a filter for SLI's.

The IEE has to be pretty over-the-top and keep hammering away at the SLI. Otherwise, she just won't get through. The SLI has to be stable (to counter her randomness) and a Guardian-Caregiver to her Infantile, and he has to just ignore her Ne 95% of the time or he'd go crazy. The SLI lives in terror that his life is going to be terminally boring and the IEE's randomness relieves that fear, but a little goes a long way.

The SLI is going to be dead stable and seemingly disinterested, and the IEE is going to jump at every rabbit, but will avoid other hunters and will only force a guy to accept her presence if he's a genuine SLI (assuming she knows what she needs - which usually takes her some amount of experimenting).

So to answer your question, No, I don't think that IEE's are more unfaithful than other types. I do think that they can LOOK like they are looking, possibly as a test for SLI-ness, and possibly as a result of jumping at the wrong rabbit and now they have to start over with another rabbit.

This describes exactly how I got through my SLI's defenses, and i'm an IEE male and she's an SLI fem obvs. Lol.

[Adam Strange]

I've always been faithful.

I didn’t mean to imply that IEE’s are not faithful. That symbol was meant to represent Ne randomness mixed with extroversion.

[Dr PissBender]

I didn’t mean to imply that IEE’s are not faithful. That symbol was meant to represent Ne randomness mixed with extroversion.

I'm curious on how LIE's react to IEE's Ne. I have an LIE best friend and he's one of my besties and we get along real well. We tend to game together. I tend to get along badly with EIE's tho.

[Adam Strange]

I'm curious on how LIE's react to IEE's Ne. I have an LIE best friend and he's one of my besties and we get along real well. We tend to game together. I tend to get along badly with EIE's tho.

Objectively, I think the IEE’s Ne can be good or bad. Good because it attracts a Dual and it also can solve problems when straight logic fails, and bad because it tends to destroy wealth. This is one of the reasons that SLI’s hoard resources and never talk about what they have. If the IEE found out that the SLI had money for a trip to Paris, those tickets would be on a charge card in a heartbeat.

As to how I subjectively feel around IEE’s, they are my Benefactors and when I’m around them, it feels like Christmas and there are presents, even if there aren’t presents.

[Northstar]

Adam’s observations on IEE match well with mine and it’s interesting to have more insights on how the SLI duality might work. I have sometimes heard SLI/IEE duality conversations in real life and started getting bored to death myself. Any conversations I have with IEE tend to be very short and practical, it seems the IEE can foresee the impending conflict and keeps them short to avoid damaging relations (keeping a lot of relations alive and on their target level is what they devote much effort to).

[Dr PissBender]

Adam’s observations on IEE match well with mine and it’s interesting to have more insights on how the SLI duality might work. I have sometimes heard SLI/IEE duality conversations in real life and started getting bored to death myself. Any conversations I have with IEE tend to be very short and practical, it seems the IEE can foresee the impending conflict and keeps them short to avoid conflict that would damage relations (keeping a lot of relations alive and on their target level is what they devote much effort to).

Yes! Life is an ethical chess game for me. I keep people under my strings on purpose to serve my own greater goal!

[Dr PissBender]

Objectively, I think the IEE’s Ne can be good or bad. Good because it attracts a Dual and it also can solve problems when straight logic fails, and bad because it tends to destroy wealth. This is one of the reasons that SLI’s hoard resources and never talk about what they have. If the IEE found out that the SLI had money for a trip to Paris, those tickets would be on a charge card in a heartbeat.

As to how I subjectively feel around IEE’s, they are my Benefactors and when I’m around them, it feels like Christmas and there are presents, even if there aren’t presents.

Haha! This comment is perfect. But to be honest, I've never taken advantage of people's money or anything, I don't like that. I'm usually the one inviting people. I had a female SLI best friend who crushed on me but i just wanted her as a best friend, and i'd constantly invite her for dinner. I'd pay it all and make dinner and food for her. Later I did realize i had been crushing on her but it was too late...

[Northstar]

Yes! Life is an ethical chess game for me. I keep people under my strings on purpose to serve my own greater goal!

To me it seems more like a pursuit of ever-changing whims and short-term goals, though often aligned with more or less permanent central interests. But yes, "hoarding" useful people and developing positive relations (including doing simple practical favors) for future benefit seems to be an instinctive trait.

[Dr PissBender]

To me it seems more like a pursuit of ever-changing whims and short-term goals, though often aligned with more or less permanent central interests. But yes, "hoarding" useful people and developing positive relations (including doing simple practical favors) for future benefit seems to be an instinctive trait.

Exactly. I love we can share practical conversations by the way. I've seen other betas get offended fast by shit I say. You're different, I like you.

[Rebelondeck]

The potential to become an abuser is independent of type, and hence, ITR. Most are capable of abusing or taking unfair advantage to varying degrees, but usually when they're convinced that they will get away with it. Chronic physical/emotional abusers have psychological issues: abuse/neglect will often beget an abuser, and a few of every type are simply born evil.....

a.k.a. I/O

[Alonzo]

I'm curious on how LIE's react to IEE's Ne. I have an LIE best friend and he's one of my besties and we get along real well. We tend to game together. I tend to get along badly with EIE's tho.

It's very "lady in the streets [Te] but freak in the sheets [Ne]" when it comes to my relationship with Ne lol; it's almost like I live a double life, where there is this aspect of myself that is quite strong and takes up ample space in my psyche, but that I may not ostensibly wear and publicly showcase at all times because it might get in the way of my overarching goals and endeavors--but on the chance that I scurry past some brazen street walker who lets their freak flag fly, I impart a smirk, nod and a wink in their direction to show that I secretly relate to that level of "fun" and wild abandon. lol I tend to meet Ne in a lot of dark alley ways, out of sight, without the glare of street lamps, where I can let loose.

For me, Ne = unadulterated fun, exploration and discovery into new worlds and realities--It's Oz, Narnia, Star Trek, Dr. Who, all that, which is why I consume copious amounts of Ne related fuckery and tomfoolery particularly during my private/down time--it's not a state of mind that I cognitively take seriously (i.e., prioritize it). Ne leads can be fun to engage because I have the capacity (4D Ne) to keep up, but IEEs are the most alluring because they also feed my suggestive Fi, and IMO, are the most hilarious sociotype. Especially at this point in my life, I don't know if there is a more influential type to me than IEE--particularly brilliant ones are like god tier status.

[Dr PissBender]

It's very "lady in the streets [Te] but freak in the sheets [Ne]" when it comes to my relationship with Ne lol; it's almost like I live a double life, where there is this aspect of myself that is quite strong and takes up ample space in my psyche, but that I may not ostensibly wear and publicly showcase at all times because it might get in the way of my overarching goals and endeavors--but on the chance that I scurry past some brazen street walker who lets their freak flag fly, I impart a smirk, nod and a wink in their direction to show that I secretly relate to that level of "fun" and wild abandon. lol I tend to meet Ne in a lot of dark alley ways, out of sight, without the glare of street lamps, where I can let loose.

For me, Ne = unadulterated fun, exploration and discovery into new worlds and realities--It's Oz, Narnia, Star Trek, Dr. Who, all that, which is why I consume copious amounts of Ne related fuckery and tomfoolery particularly during my private/down time--it's not a state of mind that I cognitively take seriously (i.e., prioritize it). Ne leads can be fun to engage because I have the capacity (4D Ne) to keep up, but IEEs are the most alluring because they also feed my suggestive Fi, and IMO, are the most hilarious sociotype. Especially at this point in my life, I don't know if there is a more influential type to me than IEE--particularly brilliant ones are like god tier status.

Aww, I honestly love healthy LIE's, I have only disliked two out of like five, the rest are my friends. And those two were, to be honest, wannabe sociopaths (I did the sociopath better than them, to be fair.) And I prefer LIE's over my dumbass benefactors any time! I mean, who in their sane mind likes ESE's?!

But yeah, my LIE bestie is basically my partner in crime, Te is hot.

[FDG]

that's racism.

No that's regionalism, racism would be "black Esi-Se could be violent".

[Alonzo]

Aww, I honestly love healthy LIE's, I have only disliked two out of like five, the rest are my friends. And those two were, to be honest, wannabe sociopaths (I did the sociopath better than them, to be fair.) And I prefer LIE's over my dumbass benefactors any time! I mean, who in their sane mind likes ESE's?!

But yeah, my LIE bestie is basically my partner in crime, Te is hot.

lol@the emboldened > dat situational/flexible Fi. If, for example, personal gain is the goal, then I'd think the ability to get close to/predispose yourself to people really comes in handy. A problem with 1D Fi is that because it inherently gives so few fucks (about anything), it encourages poor "follow through" when it comes to nurturing/maintaining stable interpersonal bonds enough to get anything truly substantial out of a relationship--getting close enough to mount a one time hit/heist may be possible but talented Fi creatives know how to create a well that will consistently quench their thirst (if that's what they want). A shady LIE's grift is more easily exposed because they can barely manage the energy and effort to care to keep a relationship from being compromised, or successfully rescue it after it's been compromised. My mom has creative Fi and she has "go to" people for every need and desire, but she never interacts with them solely on those bases; she does a lot of "good will," "laying the ground work" gestures in between asking for anything so as to appear like it's a caring, mutually beneficial relationship, when she and I both know that she doesn't really give a fuck, she just wants what she wants and knows how to keep getting it. Because she doesn't wreak havoc and destroy lives, I call her sociopath-lite. lol

[FDG]

Because of their race or culture? There are peaceful or violent ppl in every country and culture.
.

Impossible everyone in mexico is violent and everyone in sweden is peaceful

[FDG]

My mom has creative Fi and she has "go to" people for every need and desire, but she never interacts with them solely on those bases; she does a lot of "good will," "laying the ground work" gestures in between asking for anything so as to appear like it's a caring, mutually beneficial relationship, when she and I both know that she doesn't really give a fuck, she just wants what she wants and knows how to keep getting it. Because she doesn't wreak havoc and destroy lives, I call her sociopath-lite. lol

Yeah that's like my SEE friend...damn he can really fake it well. Or maybe it's not "fake" it but well...kinda.

[Hope]

No that's regionalism, racism would be "black Esi-Se could be violent".

You and @Adam Strange are both wrong. Racism is not limited to skin color or genetics, it includes ethnical and cultural discrimination.

Racism is the belief that groups of humans possess different behavioral traits corresponding to physical appearance and can be divided based on the superiority of one race over another. It may also mean prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against other people because they are of a different race or ethnicity.

Cultural racism exists when there is a widespread acceptance of stereotypes concerning different ethnic or population groups.

An ethnic group or ethnicity is a category of people who identify with each other, usually on the basis of presumed similarities such as common language, ancestry, history, society, culture, nation or social treatment within their residing area.

[FDG]

Are you trying to argue about that for real or is it a joke?

[calm]

I actually know an IEE who was highly abusive to his ex when they were dating and still tries stalking her and texting her and all this weird controlling shit even though they've been broken up for a year now..

my IEE neighbor beat her supervisee ESI husband to a pulp on a daily basis and I worry so much about him. Poor guy.

[calm]

As we have said before, Fi creative can make hell of a sociopath.

Please enlighten me on this

[Hope]

Are you trying to argue about that for real or is it a joke?

I'm just saying that Italian LIEs could be racists.

[Dr PissBender]

Please enlighten me on this

Fi creative can help you get closer to people, it's about the psychological distance. I have NO PROBLEM in getting someone to like me really fast. If I have shitty intentions, I can have people open up real fast and be vulnerable to me. I think Fi creative is there to have both SEE's and IEE's penetrate through the Fe polr walls ILI's and SLI's have.

[Lord Pixel]

I got a little brother and a little sister who are both kindred types. SEE and SLE. I'm 10 years older than my little sister so when we used to play fight It was pretty light. But my brother is only 5 years older than her, and when they fight, they fight foreal, it starts off as an argument and then slapping and hitting each other hard, like once Se gets involved it's like "I'm done talking" and then they just start hitting lol, that is pure Se to me. It gets vicious. Growing up with an SLE cousin my same age, everything with him was a challenge of strength, he messes with you to see if your gonna do anything about it and he loves when you fight back. I remember moments he made his lil SEI brother cry and turn into the hulk lol, probably forcing out his ignoring Se, and my cousin loved it while his SEI brother was dead serious taking huge clumsy swings at his head and completely missing. One time they hadn't seen each other in awhile and the first thing my cousin does is run up to his little brother and bear hugs the back of his neck like he's gonna choke him out and boom they are right back to rough play like they are kids again, so I guess it's multipurposed, like it's a way he shows love too? Idk.

This might sound screwed up but

I willing to bet strong Se users are the most physically abusive, and strong Ne users most psychologically abusive.

[Dr PissBender]

I got a little brother and a little sister who are both kindred types. SEE and SLE. I'm 10 years older than my little sister so when we used to play fight It was pretty light. But my brother is only 5 years older than her, and when they fight, they fight foreal, it starts off as an argument and then slapping and hitting each other hard, like once Se gets involved it's like "I'm done talking" and then they just start hitting lol, that is pure Se to me. It gets vicious. Growing up with an SLE cousin my same age, everything with him was a challenge of strength, he messes with you to see if your gonna do anything about it and he loves when you fight back. I remember moments he made his lil SEI brother cry and turn into the hulk lol, probably forcing out his ignoring Se, and my cousin loved it while his SEI brother was dead serious taking huge clumsy swings at his head and completely missing. One time they hadn't seen each other in awhile and the first thing my cousin does is run up to his little brother and bear hugs the back of his neck like he's gonna choke him out and boom they are right back to rough play like they are kids again, so I guess it's multipurposed, like it's a way he shows love too? Idk.

This might sound screwed up but

I willing to bet strong Se users are the most physically abusive, and strong Ne users most psychologically abusive.

YES! I'm Ne lead and have been completely psychologically abusive to "enemies". Holy crap. You got it right lol

[sojourn]

An interesting prompt for further thought.

Supervision can play out like the Standford prison experiment or the Milgram experiment. I am still grappling with this, but it seems to set up conditions that are very conducive to abuse.

Had a rough ride with male SEE-Se from ages 20~23. Most painful in the 2nd year. Thinking of the power games, control, and manipulation still unsettles me. The physical hits were bad, but the gaslighting was much worse.

IME, the maturity, character, and psychological distance for the individuals involved can make a huge difference.

For instance, dualized SEE friend has been patient with me from the start and he holds back a lot. He stopped a SLE female from ripping me a new one at a bar. He asks how much I have read of, "The Art of Seduction" and pushes me towards every Delta or Te-lead that he can find. No lines have been crossed.

With the 4 ILE in my life, I've gotten better at recognizing the psychological pain that I cause them. I modify my behavior, but it's hard to gauge impact without practice + feedback.

[The Reality Denialist]

One flew over the cuckoo's nest. ESI nurse supervising SLE. SLE is defenceless.

[WinnieW]

One flew over the cuckoo's nest. ESI nurse...

Nurse Mildred Ratched an ethical type? What?
I'd say she has unhealty Te-ego.
Strong preference for logistical order to the point she's a heartless bitch.

[The Reality Denialist]

Nurse Mildred Ratched an ethical type? What?
I'd say she has unhealty Te-ego.
Strong preference for logistical order to the point she's a heartless bitch.

I think let's keep everyone's feelings in a harmonious safe place is very Fi kind of thing. Extremely so. Te egos like that. I really prefer shakedowns which is Fe > Fi.
And also she used power regarding connections to authority [Fi + Se] to suppress the supervised.

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

Do you mean physical, emotional or sexual abuse? Or all three? Thankfully I never actually met anybody that was all three- at least not to me. That would be horrible lol.

Duality can be emotionally abusive- but it doesn't seem to be all that physically or sexually abusive. (in some unhealthy dual relationships I've seen the physical and sexual components being used by the victim as a kind of saving grace chip that the victim gets gaslighted by to keep on staying and trying to make it work - even though emotionally and psychologically it was so fucked up.)

Well actually to be fair, this is just in one unhealthy male SLE/female IEI relationship that I know. =p But I wonder how many of them are like this?

Physical abuse - seems Conflictor-ish, as if Confliction is bad enough it seems like over time you might just 'snap' and start going at each other with fists. Perhaps Activity too.

Sexual abuse- not sure. Possibly dual/identity/look-a-like relations.

[WinnieW]

I think let's keep everyone's feelings in a harmonious safe place is very Fi kind of thing.

Ok, but I've a different perspective about that movie.
My pov is that there is no real ethical judgement involved. All she does is apply learned behaviors. She compares the present state to the desired state of the patients and take fitting actions. What desired states of patients are is based on her medical education and experience.
Her approach is a logistical style. It's about order and rule conformity, not true harmony.
The rules are what's learned at nursing school.

And also she used power regarding connections to authority [Fi + Se] to suppress the supervised.

I agree with you that she use Se to force people to comply. But I still fail to see why Fi is an ego function of her.

[Aramas]

I got a little brother and a little sister who are both kindred types. SEE and SLE. I'm 10 years older than my little sister so when we used to play fight It was pretty light. But my brother is only 5 years older than her, and when they fight, they fight foreal, it starts off as an argument and then slapping and hitting each other hard, like once Se gets involved it's like "I'm done talking" and then they just start hitting lol, that is pure Se to me. It gets vicious. Growing up with an SLE cousin my same age, everything with him was a challenge of strength, he messes with you to see if your gonna do anything about it and he loves when you fight back. I remember moments he made his lil SEI brother cry and turn into the hulk lol, probably forcing out his ignoring Se, and my cousin loved it while his SEI brother was dead serious taking huge clumsy swings at his head and completely missing. One time they hadn't seen each other in awhile and the first thing my cousin does is run up to his little brother and bear hugs the back of his neck like he's gonna choke him out and boom they are right back to rough play like they are kids again, so I guess it's multipurposed, like it's a way he shows love too? Idk.

This might sound screwed up but

I willing to bet strong Se users are the most physically abusive, and strong Ne users most psychologically abusive.

You've never met an EIE have you?

Oh NVM, you said strong not valued lol ok.

[Lord Pixel]

You've never met an EIE have you?

Oh NVM, you said strong not valued lol ok.

I know an EIE real close and I agree.

[Aramas]

I know an EIE real close and I agree.

I've got an EIE dad I think. I have typed him a few different things, like SLE and SEE. But I think EIE might be the only one that fits now. He's very psychological and great at mind games and stuff like gaslighting and double binds. I'm not sure he would even know those terms, but he seems to have knowledge of the tactics of how they are put into practice nonetheless.

Any abuse that doesn't come to blows is psychological, tho. Se egos are fairly good at using "psychological" tactics, because Se is about methods of attack, both psychological and physical. EIIs and LIIs are generally not that great at "getting to people."

My dad had a friend that once said, "The threat of punishment is more effective a deterrent than punishment itself." I'm paraphrasing of course.

A great defense against mentalists like these is to achieve the state called no-mind or mushin:

Mushin is achieved when a person's mind is free from thoughts of anger, fear, or ego during combat or everyday life. There is an absence of discursive thought and judgment, so the person is totally free to act and react towards an opponent without hesitation and without disturbance from such thoughts. At this point, a person relies not on what they think should be the next move, but what is their trained natural reaction (or instinct) or what is felt intuitively. It is not a state of relaxed, near-sleepfulness, however. The mind could be said to be working at a very high speed, but with no intention, plan or direction.

Hint: mushin is a possible result of dualization. A similar idea is "wu wei"

[calm]

YES! I'm Ne lead and have been completely psychologically abusive to "enemies". Holy crap. You got it right lol

Define psychologically abusive

[Jerdle]

I could easily see the supervisee getting abusive, especially if they're Se base, because (in their view) nothing else will get their supervisor off their back.

Physically abusive SLE male - emotionally abusive ESI female seems all too plausible.

[The Reality Denialist]

Ok, but I've a different perspective about that movie.
My pov is that there is no real ethical judgement involved. All she does is apply learned behaviors. She compares the present state to the desired state of the patients and take fitting actions. What desired states of patients are is based on her medical education and experience.
Her approach is a logistical style. It's about order and rule conformity, not true harmony.
The rules are what's learned at nursing school.


I agree with you that she use Se to force people to comply. But I still fail to see why Fi is an ego function of her.

This screams Ne PoLR Te suggestive nurse with zero Te creativity using the knowledge of Ti role (mental health system) to support her views.

[Dr PissBender]

Define psychologically abusive

More like manipulative and plotting shit against one person by just gaining his own known one's trust and making them look like the shit they are by exposing the things i know about them thanks to my Smart Boss Ne and Fi creative and other shenanigans

[WinnieW]

This screams Ne PoLR Te suggestive nurse with zero Te creativity using the knowledge of Ti role (mental health system) to support her views.

Yeah, 1D Ne + 1D Fe fits her.
LSI fits her better than ESI, imo.