Simo's type update

[Simo]

Hi everyone

It has been a long time, how is the forum these days? is there anyone who remember me?

I just wanted to let everyone know that I settled with ILE as my type rather than ILI (I never felt convinced of being Ni-dom)

so for those who knows me feel free to comment, here is the list of members that I remember (hope you are doing great ):
@Aylen @Olimpia @Aki @Chae @Myst @The Exception @thehotelambush @Adam Strange

I tried not to forget anyone but those are the only names that I think may remember me, except for @Sol who I believe put me in the ignore list

Note: those who don't know me just ignore this thread

[Hope]

Hello Semi dual

What made you realize Si seeking over Se?

[Sol]

Sol, who I believe put me in the ignore list

After you were redundantly rude, to prevent the senseless quarrel I puted you to rest from me to ignore list on some time.

> I just wanted to let everyone know that I settled with ILE as my type rather than ILI (I never felt convinced of being Ni-dom)

If you'll create a typing theme with video you'll may get more of brand new types. For free!

Aylen since June is on spiritual search for better life than Socionics floods. No much hope to see her in the near cold monthes.
Olimpia still likes to sweet dream herself as own revisor
Aki pretended to be EII and tried to marry me, but as my harem was full I've placed her in the queue
Chae has surrendered and now says her type as EIE, but not IEE just to do not be annoyed by my disagreement with her being in my holly delta. Though you could to notice that in July already.
Myst have lost in own mind during arguing with me and needs the time to restore
The Exception... let there will be the exception for commenting her
thehotelambush has hard times with accepting himself to be heretic
Adam Strange becomes older with everyday

[Overthinker]

“Adam Strange becomes older with everyday”

Just... Wow, I didn’t know Sol could be such a savage.

[Sol]

“Adam Strange becomes older with everyday”

Just... Wow, I didn’t know Sol could be such a savage.

I also kill mosquitos by the most cruel way and without any regrets.

[Adam Strange]

“Adam Strange becomes older with everyday”

Just... Wow, I didn’t know Sol could be such a savage.

No, I think @Sol’s right. I’m sorting a lot of things out and stepping back as a consequence, not getting involved in every disagreement or trying to defend myself against every opinion. This can make a person appear older.

[Hope]

Sol I never tried to marry you, you twist the facts, you can't be Te type.

I said I was married so you and I couldn't be, so I gave you my condolences because you innocently thought that I added you because I had some romantic interest in you, which was not the case, but maybe your tarot reading from that day told you such, hence your confusion. The EII thing was obvious trolling since you only care for adding EIIs in the forum to get some chance to mate to a dual before you die.

[Desert Financial]

[Hope]

Its just some friendly tease.

[Desert Financial]

More tho.

[Sol]

I’m sorting a lot of things out and stepping back as a consequence, not getting involved in every disagreement or trying to defend myself against every opinion. This can make a person appear older.

as older introvert

Sol I never tried to marry you, you twist the facts, you can't be Te type.

you just do not understand yourself. you had no chance to avoid my charm

[Adam Strange]

you just do not understand yourself. you had no chance to avoid my charm

@Sol, I don't think it's your charm that she's avoiding. Lol.

[Simo]

Hello Semi dual

What made you realize Si seeking over Se?

well it wasn't the seeking function that made me change type, but rather trying to type some colleagues and then reading reinin dichotomies that's when I realize even though I am a constructivist who "Tend to minimize the emotional elements of interaction, preferring to focus on the 'business' elements", I am still a subjectivist who is "Good at noticing emotional background" and "Not inclined to deduce 'objective truths' from their own and others' experiences – everything is relative. This relativity is perceived as an extenuation of the differing beliefs, opinions, intentions, etc. of each person. Accordingly, another person's actions are judged as correct or incorrect according to a set of subjective criteria. They attempt to compare others' views to their own, and to explain their own views in order to make sure that all parties understand the concepts being spoken of"
I think my supervisor doesn't like how I try to explain why someone's else wrong action is not actually wrong from their perspective because of X (I would say he doesn't understand why did I even try to see it from that guy's perspective in the first place)

if we add this to being judicious (this was one of the reasons that made me consider SLI instead of ILI a while back) we get alpha ILE or ESE and since ESE is out of question so ILE it is. so I read more descriptions of ILE and this is the most accurate in my opinion: http://www.wikisocion.net/en/index.p...Stratiyevskaya

[Simo]

After you were redundantly rude, to prevent the senseless quarrel I puted you to rest from me to ignore list on some time.

I don't remember being rude , I asked you to explain your VI typing and why do you think it is better than how others type but couldn't do it
and you did insult others way of typing to promote your VI guessing so if anyone was actually rude then that's you

If you'll create a typing theme with video you'll may get more of brand new types. For free!

I already had 6 types before this one, and btw how accurate is your guessing now?

Aylen since June is on spiritual search for better life than Socionics floods. No much hope to see her in the near cold monthes.

dealing with a conflictor must have been hard. rest in peace Aylen

Olimpia still likes to sweet dream herself as own revisor

sounds good to me, did she make any new interesting blog posts while I was gone?

Aki pretended to be EII and tried to marry me, but as my harem was full I've placed her in the queue

are you trying to tell you actually stopped her from entering hell? that's very noble of you

Chae has surrendered and now says her type as EIE, but not IEE just to do not be annoyed by my disagreement with her being in my holly delta. Though you could to notice that in July already.

leave her alone, she used to be the life of the forum so if you really want to find a dual you should try not to annoy the ones who keeps the forum active, otherwise the forum will wither away with your hopes of finding a dual.
As for EIE I remember it was her original type and considering her strong Fe I don't think it is such a bad type for her

Myst have lost in own mind during arguing with me and needs the time to restore

poor thing, everyone would lose their mind reasoning with unreasonable person

The Exception... let there will be the exception for commenting her

I fear that would be a miracle

thehotelambush has hard times with accepting himself to be heretic

if it is such a hard thing to accept then he can just reject it

Adam Strange becomes older with everyday

said by the one who gets younger with everyday, still I think it was brilliant observation

[Simo]

so I gave you my condolences because you innocently thought that I added you because I had some romantic interest in you, which was not the case

guys are very simple, so I don't think it was his mistake to misunderstand why you added him

you only care for adding EIIs in the forum to get some chance to mate to a dual before you die.

lol

[Bertrand]

Sol "eliminated" almost entirely people I didn't like which makes him a hero in my book

if you want to argue he's the problem, I will be forced to defend him by explaining why everyone on the wrong side of him is/was a shithead

I don't think that is going to work out for these people you want to "defend" by making Sol out to be the bad guy

[Simo]

Sol "eliminated" almost entirely people I didn't like

good for you I guess, who is not eliminated yet?

which makes him a hero in my book

interesting, I never imaged the day he is being called a hero would actually come

if you want to argue he's the problem

I don't think he is a problem, the problem is his believe that everyone should accept his VI guessing as the ultimate typing method

I will be forced to defend him by explaining why everyone on the wrong side of him is/was a shithead

well I am more interested in what do you think of his VI guessing, but yeah free feel to explain your reasons

I don't think that is going to work out for these people you want to "defend" by making Sol out to be the bad guy

I am not really trying to defend anyone

[Number 9 large]

Its just some friendly tease.

Triggered

[Hope]

Triggered

[Hope]

Bert, you need to stop being such a fanboy.

[Sol]

I don't think it's your charm that she's avoiding.

In her motivations could be also to avoid dudes with the charm lesser than mine.

[Exodus]

Hi everyone

It has been a long time, how is the forum these days? is there anyone who remember me?

I just wanted to let everyone know that I settled with ILE as my type rather than ILI (I never felt convinced of being Ni-dom)

Alrighty. Your questionnaire was quite short but it does at least seem consistent with ILE (the greater focus on Se and Te coming from extroversion then).

[Simo]

Alrighty. Your questionnaire was quite short but it does at least seem consistent with ILE

Really?! I guess I should read it then

(the greater focus on Se and Te coming from extroversion then).

you mean because they would be bold functions?
I don't remember what I wrote so I'm not sure but I think the environment and upbringing can play a role since Te & Se are easily associated with success

[Exodus]

you mean because they would be bold functions?

yep

[Exodus]

well it wasn't the seeking function that made me change type, but rather trying to type some colleagues and then reading reinin dichotomies that's when I realize even though I am a constructivist who "Tend to minimize the emotional elements of interaction, preferring to focus on the 'business' elements", I am still a subjectivist who is "Good at noticing emotional background" and "Not inclined to deduce 'objective truths' from their own and others' experiences – everything is relative. This relativity is perceived as an extenuation of the differing beliefs, opinions, intentions, etc. of each person. Accordingly, another person's actions are judged as correct or incorrect according to a set of subjective criteria. They attempt to compare others' views to their own, and to explain their own views in order to make sure that all parties understand the concepts being spoken of"
I think my supervisor doesn't like how I try to explain why someone's else wrong action is not actually wrong from their perspective because of X (I would say he doesn't understand why did I even try to see it from that guy's perspective in the first place)

if we add this to being judicious (this was one of the reasons that made me consider SLI instead of ILI a while back) we get alpha ILE or ESE and since ESE is out of question so ILE it is. so I read more descriptions of ILE and this is the most accurate in my opinion: http://www.wikisocion.net/en/index.p...Stratiyevskaya

I would not type myself using Reinin dichotomies though. Stick to strengths/values

[Simo]

I would not type myself using Reinin dichotomies though. Stick to strengths/values

I have been told not to use reinin dichotomies for typing before, but no one gave me a convincing reason yet
so would you tell me why wouldn't you type yourself using them?

[Exodus]

I have been told not to use reinin dichotomies for typing before, but no one gave me a convincing reason yet
so would you tell me why wouldn't you type yourself using them?

Because their descriptions are vague and not based on Model A, or in certain cases actually conflict with it.

https://socionist.blogspot.com/2008/...-are-dead.html

For the time being, most Reinin dichotomies are of theoretical interest only.

[Simo]

Because their descriptions are vague and not based on Model A,

I agree their descriptions are vague but I think that's because Reinin focused on proving their existence, not much on describing them.
still if they exist, I don't think we should just discard them.
I mean if someone bought you a tasty meal and when you asked him where is the restaurant he gave you wrong directions, would you give up on going to that restaurant or would you ask someone else about the direction? I know it is a silly example but hopefully it gets the idea across

or in certain cases actually conflict with it.

do you have a specific example?

https://socionist.blogspot.com/2008/...-are-dead.html

For the time being, most Reinin dichotomies are of theoretical interest only.

thanks for the link

[Exodus]

I agree their descriptions are vague but I think that's because Reinin focused on proving their existence, not much on describing them.

That is simply not true.

Augusta wrote a 100+ page book on the interpretation of the Reinin dichotomies.

"Proving" that they exist mathematically is trivial and takes only a few lines.

do you have a specific example?

LSIs being "Carefree"

http://www.wikisocion.net/en/index.p...and_farsighted

[Simo]

That is simply not true.

Augusta wrote a 100+ page book on the interpretation of the Reinin dichotomies.

"Proving" that they exist mathematically is trivial and takes only a few lines.

Didn't know that, but in the link you shared earlier it says "Augusta presented Reinin's Dichotomies as a hypothesis and stated that they needed further investigation." wouldn't this means that she believe they are still work in progress and the book was just a first draft?

Also, I remember reading that Gulenko links between signs (+/-) and "Positivist / Negativist" dichotomy, so if positioning signs relies on unreliable dichotomies wouldn't that mean the signs placement is also unreliable? btw I never asked you what do think about the signs?

LSIs being "Carefree"

http://www.wikisocion.net/en/index.p...and_farsighted

why do you think LSIs aren't carefree?

[Sol]

Didn't know that, but in the link you shared earlier it says "Augusta presented Reinin's Dichotomies as a hypothesis and stated that they needed further investigation." wouldn't this means that she believe they are still work in progress and the book was just a first draft?

She understood that all her theories are only a hypothesis, as was not an uneducated Socionics fan. In the main work about Reinin's articles she called all that as an early draft which needs the further development.
But seems she took seriously static/dynamic trait as used it to describe functions. Like Te which gets "how to do", though that also can be explained without new trait: for example through a process represented as the states of an object/situation in different time moments, a series of its "pictures", while dynamics would imply the links, the laws between those state - and that is close to Ti already as she understood it. Ni is about time process but that may be decribed as the "feel" of links or tendencies between states. Si which is "dynamic" by her does not need any processes and can be described as a subjective evaluation of or relation to senses in a moment. Fe also can be described as an emotional state in a moment.
Her initial Socionics works when model A was created seems had no static/dynamic, - that trait could appeare later in 1980s, close to Reinin's article of 1985. All that Reinin stuff is doubtful from Jung's theory point, has no clear and not controversive description and is late stage of her works. It can be related to Socionics from formal side only, to more to "new Socionics" by her.

It needs to mention, that Augustinavichiute did not say the objective truth and what she said has very different basis to trust, her theories are not equal in basis and how close they are to core types definitions given by Jung. Sometimes she contradicted to Jung without good reasons, sometimes described the same differently but only from other point of view like in case of E/I dichotomy. And her "polr" function would be more correctly to be called as the most annoying function for the consciousness, as Jung thought as the weakest suggestive function and that has better explanation.

> why do you think LSIs aren't carefree?

just forget baseless Reinin's heresy

[Exodus]

Didn't know that, but in the link you shared earlier it says "Augusta presented Reinin's Dichotomies as a hypothesis and stated that they needed further investigation." wouldn't this means that she believe they are still work in progress and the book was just a first draft?

Yes, and no one else has presented decent descriptions since she wrote the book either.

Also, I remember reading that Gulenko links between signs (+/-) and "Positivist / Negativist" dichotomy, so if positioning signs relies on unreliable dichotomies wouldn't that mean the signs placement is also unreliable? btw I never asked you what do think about the signs?

I view them as an interesting hypothesis and a work in progress. In fact I have done research into signed elements myself, but again I don't view it as being at the same level of development as Model A. Gulenko often does not make the distinction between solid theory and hypotheses clear - in fact, as of the last few years he has apparently lost track of the distinction himself.

why do you think LSIs aren't carefree?

“You cannot prepare for everything.”

This is the exact antithesis of an LSI who has Ni mobilizing and Ne vulnerable, so typically tends to overprepare.

This is just one small example of where they clearly conflict, for the most part the descriptions are too vague to make any sense out of. (Like: "The search for the solution is implied in the answer.")

[squark]

Yes, and no one else has presented decent descriptions since she wrote the book either.



I view them as an interesting hypothesis and a work in progress. In fact I have done research into signed elements myself, but again I don't view it as being at the same level of development as Model A. Gulenko often does not make the distinction between solid theory and hypotheses clear - in fact, as of the last few years he has apparently lost track of the distinction himself.



“You cannot prepare for everything.”

This is the exact antithesis of an LSI who has Ni mobilizing and Ne vulnerable, so typically tends to overprepare.

This is just one small example of where they clearly conflict, for the most part the descriptions are too vague to make any sense out of. (Like: "The search for the solution is implied in the answer.")

Well, because of weak Ne (not seeing all the options) the LSI may plan easily foreseeable things (buy tickets and book hotel well in advance for instance, create a long-term budget etc) but will likely give up trying to work out all the details and crap on many other things because it's just too overwhelming to even try to think of all the possibilities. In which case they wing it, because "what could go wrong?" or "As long as the basics are covered we'll deal with the rest when we get there." A lot of times this works out, other times they get blindsided by their focus on "let's do this" rather than on "what else might possibly happen?" So, yes, LSIs are carefree in that sense. It's why they could have a 10-year budget or something and it's still not a contradiction with carefree because there are pockets of incidentals built in that they know they can't foresee, creating far more in-the-moment flexibility than you might expect. It's quite literally a mindset recognizing very well that "you can't prepare for everything" and not even trying to ie. weak Ne

The real sticklers and planners ime actually tend to be Ni polrs anyway.

[Simo]

In fact I have done research into signed elements myself, but again I don't view it as being at the same level of development as Model A.

did you find anything interesting in your research?

[Simo]

Well, because of weak Ne (not seeing all the options) the LSI may plan easily foreseeable things (buy tickets and book hotel well in advance for instance, create a long-term budget etc) but will likely give up trying to work out all the details and crap on many other things because it's just too overwhelming to even try to think of all the possibilities. In which case they wing it, because "what could go wrong?" or "As long as the basics are covered we'll deal with the rest when we get there." A lot of times this works out, other times they get blindsided by their focus on "let's do this" rather than on "what else might possibly happen?" So, yes, LSIs are carefree in that sense. It's why they could have a 10-year budget or something and it's still not a contradiction with carefree because there are pockets of incidentals built in that they know they can't foresee, creating far more in-the-moment flexibility than you might expect. It's quite literally a mindset recognizing very well that "you can't prepare for everything" and not even trying to ie. weak Ne

In other words, "you can't prepare for everything" doesn't mean "you don't prepare for everything", thus even though LSIs prepare for foreseeable future, they still know there are things that could happen for which they didn't prepare yet they say "we'll cross that bridge when we come to it"

The real sticklers and planners ime actually tend to be Ni polrs anyway.

and both cases are farsighted

[Exodus]

did you find anything interesting in your research?

Oh yes. Many interesting things. You can read about it a bit here:

https://wholesocionics.herokuapp.com/
http://wholesocionics.blogspot.com/

[squark]

In other words, "you can't prepare for everything" doesn't mean "you don't prepare for everything", thus even though LSIs prepare for foreseeable future, they still know there are things that could happen for which they didn't prepare yet they say "we'll cross that bridge when we come to it"



and both cases are farsighted

Yes, exactly =)

[Simo]

Oh yes. Many interesting things. You can read about it a bit here:

https://wholesocionics.herokuapp.com/
http://wholesocionics.blogspot.com/

I can't believe I haven't checked your blog even though it was in your signature all this time.
I was reading your IME article since I think changing my typing from Fe-PoLR to Fi-PoLR indicate a misunderstanding of the core difference between those two elements, so I was trying to clarify my understanding yet I still have some questions
first if we agree that Fe express internal states (like happiness, sadness, anger, etc), and Fi is feeling of likes/dislikes of someone/something, then can't we say Fi actually influence the internal state that's expressed by Fe? I mean if you were kinda bored and then you met someone you love wouldn't that make you happy which would be expressed by Fe? if I look at it this way I can't see them actually conflict with each other, also you described Fe as inherently unifying can you clarify that?

Also, I would like to know how do you differentiate Fe and Fi PoLRs? regarding Fi personally I do know if I like someone as for how they feel about me I need to judge their reactions to me and whether or not they would try to get in touch in case I didn't. as for Fe I dislike having to express my feelings in words (I feel awkward if I tried to do it) so I would rather do it indirectly by helping them or by buying gifts. so what do you think?

finally, you wrote:

One kind of influence that Se seeks is that of disciplining the self to achieve whatever outcome one wants to achieve

so are you saying Se-dom are the most disciplined types? I would say they are more committed to achieve whatever they want but I don't think that necessarily means they are disciplined.

[Exodus]

I can't believe I haven't checked your blog even though it was in your signature all this time.
I was reading your IME article since I think changing my typing from Fe-PoLR to Fi-PoLR indicate a misunderstanding of the core difference between those two elements, so I was trying to clarify my understanding yet I still have some questions
first if we agree that Fe express internal states (like happiness, sadness, anger, etc), and Fi is feeling of likes/dislikes of someone/something, then can't we say Fi actually influence the internal state that's expressed by Fe? I mean if you were kinda bored and then you met someone you love wouldn't that make you happy which would be expressed by Fe? if I look at it this way I can't see them actually conflict with each other, also you described Fe as inherently unifying can you clarify that?

Elements in the same domain do affect one another. I explain the conflict between Fe and Fi somewhat in the Model A / Blocking / Model A2 articles.

Fe has the goal of inclusiveness, the idea that everybody is part of a community and should act in a way that takes this into account. However for Alphas ("Alpha Fe" or +Fe) this is more of a universal community, for Betas it's more of an exclusive insider/outsider thing. So really +Fe is inclusiveness.

Also, I would like to know how do you differentiate Fe and Fi PoLRs? regarding Fi personally I do know if I like someone as for how they feel about me I need to judge their reactions to me and whether or not they would try to get in touch in case I didn't. as for Fe I dislike having to express my feelings in words (I feel awkward if I tried to do it) so I would rather do it indirectly by helping them or by buying gifts. so what do you think?

Fe and Fi vulnerable shouldn't be hard to distinguish. Fe vulnerables are more expressive in general but are neglectful about maintaining relationships / offending people's feelings. Fe vulnerables are much less responsive or inclined to participate in openly emotional settings, but they care more deeply about maintaining relationships with people who are important to them.

so are you saying Se-dom are the most disciplined types? I would say they are more committed to achieve whatever they want but I don't think that necessarily means they are disciplined.

No, I agree. Se creatives are typically the most disciplined types despite having "less Se". There are different ways we might explain this theoretically: Se creatives have more Ni which is responsible for "staying on track" - Se leadings' goals tend to be more haphazard or less thought out. I actually wrote that a long time ago, now I would say that self-discipline is kind of a "meta" version of Se that Se leadings don't necessarily have access to. But, they are very attuned to "what needs to be done" to achieve a goal even when they are led largely by impulse.