Discussion of LSI-ISTj Subtypes

[Logos]

yes, I've noticed this with types too. There are definitely more than 2 subtypes, though the 2 subtype distinction has the advantage of a distinctive characteristic. accepting and producing results in two different behaviours. So even if there are let's say for example 8 subtypes. Then 4 of them are accepting behaviour and 4 of them producing. So far I haven't been able to see different behaviour in the other subtypes (only different VI). Therefor the 2 subtype distinction is most important.

To generalize too liberally for a second, there appear to be two general typing methods at stake. The first method is essentialism which draws a vertical line and claims that lines marks the "essence" of a type. In order for a person to qualify as a type, they must stand on or exceptionally near this line. This line may be a particular type description, a celebrity benchmark, or a person's preconceived notion of a type through a personal benchmark. The second method draws two distantly-gaped parallel lines and claims that a person must fall within those ranges to be of a type.

While both approaches have their pitfalls, I personally prefer the second approach which allows for greater deviation from a normative ideal and is, typically, less insistent on the defining "essence" of a type. The second approach necessarily involves defining the parameters of the type range by constantly moving the lines closer or farther apart, but I have noticed that people of this second method are less reluctant to change their type conceptions with additional facts than those who think in terms of the first method.

[discojoe]

To generalize too liberally for a second, there appear to be two general typing methods at stake. The first method is essentialism which draws a vertical line and claims that lines marks the "essence" of a type. In order for a person to qualify as a type, they must stand on or exceptionally near this line. This line may be a particular type description, a celebrity benchmark, or a person's preconceived notion of a type through a personal benchmark. The second method draws two distantly-gaped parallel lines and claims that a person must fall within those ranges to be of a type.

While both approaches have their pitfalls, I personally prefer the second approach which allows for greater deviation from a normative ideal and is, typically, less insistent on the defining "essence" of a type. The second approach necessarily involves defining the parameters of the type range by constantly moving the lines closer or farther apart, but I have noticed that people of this second method are less reluctant to change their type conceptions with additional facts than those who think in terms of the first method.

What sources does the second method use to define its type range? What is the data based on?

[Logos]

What sources does the second method use to define its type range? What is the data based on?

Whether or not a subject meets the criteria of the functional arrangement of a given type. It's the difference between saying, "This person appears to have certain qualities that matches this particular arrangement of functions," versus "This person does not fit my preconception of this type based mostly around my hated Aunt Sally and this one type description I read."

The first method has a preconception that forms their central point of origin around which they build their understanding of a type. This is an in-to-outward method. The second method attempts to gather as many points of data as they can through either contracting or expanding their parameters of understanding the functions of a type. This is an out-to-inward method.

[07490]

yes, I've noticed this with types too. There are definitely more than 2 subtypes, though the 2 subtype distinction has the advantage of a distinctive characteristic. accepting and producing results in two different behaviours. So even if there are let's say for example 8 subtypes. Then 4 of them are accepting behaviour and 4 of them producing. So far I haven't been able to see different behaviour in the other subtypes (only different VI). Therefor the 2 subtype distinction is most important.

Yes. and you add differences in E-types and stacking, DCNH subtype(if it is not the same as enneagram type). You get a lot of variation.

[Ave]

This is the only LSI type that exists. They are this way because every LSI have Fi role and this is something that they can't run and hide from.

Your post makes no sense. You say they cant hide from Fi role yet admit some of them can is in the description of the first type? Besides ypu're wrong it is clear there are two types of LSI, people just cant properly identify the sensory as LSI.

[ladyinred]

Expat and FDG are right - what I probably need to find is an ISTj sensory subtype, because that would balance off my Ni-subtype attitude where I try to postpone everything and where I'm too careful about things that will probably backfire in the future.

I have no idea how to spot them. I think there is a side to ISTjs that I don't even know. I was more than a little surprised to see that Expat (and many others) had typed a character from HBO's Rome as ISTj. It was Lucius Vorenus played by Kevin McKidd. I had him typed as ENTp because I thought I was seeing the Se-role combined with a lot of Ti. (Mhh... it doesn't seem that far off when I put it this way, lol)

There is one kind of ISTj that I know of but I don't even know if they are of the same subtype - people who are shy and quiet, very careful around strangers, wear the same outfit all the time, very conservative in their views, very dutiful. They are very reliable people - you always know what to expect of them. When they disagree with a stranger/half-stranger, they pout. Seems they've had their share of bad experiences upsetting people... When they disagree with a friend, they become very stubborn and enforce their own opinion. They can't really be converted to any other opinion in that case.

Their Se mostly manifests in being dutiful. They are very neat, they go to sleep early, they wake up early. They are very productive - they don't postpone things and they don't spend time doing nothing.

I have two questions.
Which subtype is that and how does it differ from Se-subtype? ( :wink: )

ISTj-Se subtype is more outgoing than their Ti bros. They can come across as flirtatious and debonair as an ESTp. But watch their back and neck for it betrays their type. It's stiff. Look out for that and you won't mistake them for ESTps . Anyway, I notice that they tend to hold their heads up high and look down quite sharply at people. Try holding a debate with them over inconsequential matters and you'll see their hard-headedness rise to the fore. Instead of considering your opinion, they'll repeat their standpoints all the while maintaining an intimidating stare (though maybe not on purpose. Heck I don't know.) Don't hold their tempers as well as sub-type so can have embarrassing outbursts in public although how fast it's over with varies from one to another.

They are more emotionally-expressive although laughters are somewhat forced. Kris, if an ISTj-Se subtype has the hots for you, you will quickly know it because he will come to you... You don't ever have to claw after him.

(This post is written in a light-hearted manner but my opinion is based on observation and personal experience)

great thread. Especially these posts

[discojoe]

Patrick Stewart









David Suchet








Sean Connery








Ben Kingsley









Naveen Andrews








Alexander Skarsgard








discojoe

[discojoe]

The most striking and immediately apparent feature we all seem to possess is a set of profoundly sad, reflective eyes.

[717495]

Patrick Stewart, Si-ESFJ imo
Sean Connery - Ni-ENFJ

Was just look at this for a while again today: http://gallery.socionix.com/Beta/Ti-ISTj/

[discojoe]

Patrick Stewart, Si-ESFJ imo
Sean Connery - Ni-ENFJ

Are you fucking kidding me?

[717495]

Uh, no I'm not kidding ya. Obvious Fe doms are obvious. What's the opinion of Ti-IJ from?

[717495]

He appears too energetic and enthusiastic to be ISTJ, for the most part, in a manly way. He also reminds me plenty of my ENFJ dad.

Also, I've seen DJ on video, he doesn't really remind me of these people.

[discojoe]

Uh, no I'm not kidding ya. Obvious Fe doms are obvious. What's the opinion of Ti-IJ from?

Fe doms ARE obvious, and they obviously are NOT Fe doms. lmao.

[717495]

Fe doms ARE obvious, and they obviously are NOT Fe doms. lmao.

I think you're mixed up, if you think you're similar to these guys. Advising to look here first http://gallery.socionix.com/Beta/Ti-ISTj/. They're much more introverted/toned down, like you.

[discojoe]

He appears too energetic and enthusiastic to be ISTJ

Wow, because that's totally type-related.

Also, I've seen DJ on video, he doesn't really remind me of these people.

You've seen a totally insubstantial sampling of my behavior.

All of your claims so far seem to be based on superficial surface observations that are typical of neophytes, to be honest. Brush up.

[discojoe]

Fe doms ARE obvious, and they obviously are NOT Fe doms. lmao.

I think you're mixed up, if you think you're similar to these guys. Advising to look here first http://gallery.socionix.com/Beta/Ti-ISTj/. They're much more introverted/toned down, like you.

No.

The biggest argument against everything you're saying here is that the people I listed in the OP are clearly of the same type. Especially the first four. Denying this is retarded.

[717495]

Well I'd say Patrick Stewart seems a lot more physically present and softer in demeanor, by contrast unlike my impression of ENFJs, in part why I find the guy more likeable / relateable. They also seem 30 to 40 times more warm than you do.

[discojoe]

Well I'd say Patrick Stewart seems a lot more physically present and softer in demeanor, by contrast unlike my impression of ENFJs, in part why I find the guy more likeable / relateable. They also seem 30 to 40 times more warm than you do.

Really? My girlfriend has said I'm extremely warm, soft, and caring.

Hmm, maybe because she's actually interacted with me, and not just observed my late night theatrics on tiny chat?

[discojoe]

And look at my third photo and Stewart's. Jesus.

[717495]

I don't see the resemblance, but if you think I should retype you ExFJ because you really are by default more affectionate and emotionally energizing, then that's another story. I don't see how they're the same as ISTJs in general. Just trying to help.

[discojoe]

I don't see the resemblance

Dude, get the fuck out of my topic and quit trolling.

[717495]

[discojoe]

Ok, pat yourself on the back.

[stray]

damn, you look like filatova's illustration to a T. Or are you trying to look like that?

I have two friends who remind me David Suchet (one actually just passed away though :\). Their wives are definitely EIE.

Anyways, can you post some female examples?

[discojoe]

damn, you look like filatova's illustration to a T. Or are you trying to look like that?

Nope, that's me.

[FDG]

Connery seems more Se-ISTj to me. Skarsgard has an ENFj vibe. But overall these are good examples.

Btw, you looked sharper/happier when you were younger. What the hell happened? Is that Joy's fault?

[DirectorAbbie]

The most striking and immediately apparent feature we all seem to possess is a set of profoundly sad, reflective eyes.

No, the most striking feature is the forehead.

[discojoe]

Connery seems more Se-ISTj to me. Skarsgard has an ENFj vibe. But overall these are good examples.

Connery runs on clockwork and fits Ti LSI perfectly.

Skarsgard looks like me and has my exact body language. It's so identical it's eerie.

Btw, you looked sharper/happier when you were younger. What the hell happened? Is that Joy's fault?

I was just more of a kid, I guess. I'm actually a lot happier now than I was then.

The most striking and immediately apparent feature we all seem to possess is a set of profoundly sad, reflective eyes.

No, the most striking feature is the forehead.

No.

No, the most striking feature is the forehead.

I agree.

Also, I can't be the only one who started scrolling down and immediately thought, "DJ's face is going to pop up any time now", right? Good.

That wasn't my face. Those are just pictures of it. You're gross.

[Gilly]

Ed Norton

Can't get pics ATM.

[Gilly]

Sean Connery is SLE, IMO. Facial expressions and vibe comparable to Sinatra.

[discojoe]

Ed Norton

Can't get pics ATM.

Funny you say that. Here's another pic of Skarsgard:

Sean Connery is SLE, IMO. Facial expressions and vibe comparable to Sinatra.

No fucking way.

[Dionysius]

I think me and my younger brother are both LSIs. Maybe because we're the same type, but different subtypes, makes us have little interest in each other:

1. He is cold, quiet, no feelings at all (Ti); I'm more emotional inside and communicable (Se).
2. He is more outgoing, polite, even being unexpressive (Ti?); People don't like me very much, they find me haughty and sharp. And I don't like them too. (Se?).
3. He is restless, always going out (Se?); I'm more reclusive. I like activities with few people (Ti?).
4. He is peaceful (Ti); I enter into conflicts (Se).

So, I think the subtypes don't draw the lines 100% accurately. This is the same with all Subtype Descriptions. There are probably more than 2 subtypes. But... If I would create my own descriptions:

.

1. LSI-Ti subtype is much less expressive, but likes to engage in large groups (Fe) cause he needs Fe more than the Sensory subtype.
2. LSI-Se subtype is more of a loner, seeks more for meaning of his life (Ni), and enforces Role (Fi), prefering a few like-minded people.

So, even the Se subtype being more expressive, he is more solitary and complex (Perceptive subtype reenforces most used perceptive functions: Ni HA and Si demonstrative). Se subtype likes comfort and reflection.
Judging subtype reenforces main Judging function, i.e, Te ignoring.

I have a theory that all creative subtypes tend to have a more developed personality, because they don't focus too much on the Base function.

In other words, LSI-Ti is basically a strict and rational person (Ti/Te).
While LSI-Se is a more complex person, with a more variety of personalities, depending on which functions he prefer to use. Generally they use a lot their feeling functions, Ni and Si. A lot of LSI-Se's might naturally fall into Ni, which is the direct uncounscious opposition to his greatly used Se.

[Velvet]

@Dionysius I have been observing your ramblings for a while now, you switch from a type to another in a supersonic speed...
ILE, ILI, LSI now.. Maybe try to understand yourself first?..

[Myst]

...it is clear there are two types of LSI, people just cant properly identify the sensory as LSI.

Why do you say that and what do people see those LSIs as, usually?

[Myst]

I think me and my younger brother are both LSIs. Maybe because we're the same type, but different subtypes, makes us have little interest in each other:

1. He is cold, quiet, no feelings at all (Ti); I'm more emotional inside and communicable (Se).
2. He is more outgoing, polite, even being unexpressive (Ti?); People don't like me very much, they find me haughty and sharp. And I don't like them too. (Se?).
3. He is restless, always going out (Se?); I'm more reclusive. I like activities with few people (Ti?).
4. He is peaceful (Ti); I enter into conflicts (Se).

So, I think the subtypes don't draw the lines 100% accurately. This is the same with all Subtype Descriptions. There are probably more than 2 subtypes. But... If I would create my own descriptions:

.

1. LSI-Ti subtype is much less expressive, but likes to engage in large groups (Fe) cause he needs Fe more than the Sensory subtype.
2. LSI-Se subtype is more of a loner, seeks more for meaning of his life (Ni), and enforces Role (Fi), prefering a few like-minded people.

So, even the Se subtype being more expressive, he is more solitary and complex (Perceptive subtype reenforces most used perceptive functions: Ni HA and Si demonstrative). Se subtype likes comfort and reflection.
Judging subtype reenforces main Judging function, i.e, Te ignoring.

I have a theory that all creative subtypes tend to have a more developed personality, because they don't focus too much on the Base function.

In other words, LSI-Ti is basically a strict and rational person (Ti/Te).
While LSI-Se is a more complex person, with a more variety of personalities, depending on which functions he prefer to use. Generally they use a lot their feeling functions, Ni and Si. A lot of LSI-Se's might naturally fall into Ni, which is the direct uncounscious opposition to his greatly used Se.

Idk since you retyped into LIE it seems. But this person had the same observations about Ti vs Se subtypes of LSI in this same thread: http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...l=1#post570692

[Disturbed]

Ti Subtype:
much worse spatial ability
more internally emotional
much more moralistic
can resemble the NF Humanitarians and SF Socials and gamma and delta quadra more
much more emotionally empathetic but has less cognitive empathy because less accurate visual perception and less attentive to visual detail
much worse fine motor coordination, can appear clumsy, movements are much less smooth
not intellectuals.
much lower iq
much less precise and technical usage of language
thinks much less clearly
much less curious
processes and remembers much less information, much less visually aware of their surroundings
much slower recall of information from memory
more possessive and demanding of their spouses
more emotionally needy
often not good at deductive logic, often makes decisions based upon what they think others want
less good at controlling their anger and other emotions
more thin-skinned
more personable
more gruff (their warmth puts people off)
Ti sub women are more likely to cut their hair short
much more traditional
much less adaptable to new environments
trusts words more
shorter knee height, you'll never see a female LSI-Ti with knee height greater than the 90th percentile of all females' knee height, and at least 2/3 of female LSI-Ti will have knee height below the 50th percentile of all females's knee height.
more masculine looking and sounding (not consistently soft-spoken like the LSI-Se)
less likely to wear make up and jewelry
smaller nose on average, less likely to have beautiful, large, aquiline noses
louder less stable voice
more valuing of social norms
their desire for harmony, non-offensiveness, and stability can resemble the gamma and delta quadras, can seem result rather than process and farsighted rather than carefree.
much less ability to visually identify others' moods.
less artistic and less open-minded to artistry
have a want to save the world kind of attitude
more naive
more easily manipulated
less up to date, far less informed as leaders as they don't understand, don't process, and/or filter out information (they're not as good at assessing relevancy)
more likely to be psychotic or manic
much more forceful about their opinions
much more likely to be male
almost always 1w2 so/sp, maybe some 6w5.
more likely to be incel
usually slimmer, more averse to eating to fried foods
more obsessive compulsive
more assuming
more assuming about the future
more argumentative
more easily offended
more likely to be african american or middle eastern
women less likely to wear nail polish, jewelry, and make up
have less accurate sensory perception
doesn't value independence, wants people to be together, thinks social interaction for the sake of social interaction is important
it's almost like Ti isn't working for them as they don't notice inconsistencies very well, they have a harder time deciding what's most pertinent, and they aren't good with spatial relations and they seem result in their thinking, their thought process is much less linear and their expressions aren't as sequential.
experiences more doubts, goes back and forth more
roman catholic, irish catholic, arab, black south african in direct matrilineal origin, mtDNA haplogroups J and L more common.
wants more conformity
wants and makes their kids to conform to societal norms and to play with other children
don't have as strong of a sense of right and wrong, more likely to be morally relativistic, more easily emotionally manipulated.
seeks revenge more.
has more intonation in their voice
talks more loudly
asks fewer clarification questions
more stern
doesn't joke as much
much more thin-skinned
much weaker nerves, which is why they uncontrollably explode more.
has it much harder in life than Se subtype, because they're needier emotionally and materially than the Se subtype while being able to give less in return (they're less gentle, less elegant, less charming, less intellectually stimulating, and more demanding that others take responsibility so more people have less reason to stay with them) while they can't take care of themselves as easily. Since they're more forthright and blunt and more physically discomforting and unable to provide comfort (they're not as gentle with their hands, they look and sound more masculine, less elegant so people who are not Fi users and also have very accurate visual, auditory, olfactory, taste, tactile perception don't gravitate towards them physically) and react more negatively to changes and conflict than the Se subtype, fewer people who want to enjoy life and their freedom and independence and who are highly sensual and have a high IQ will want to associate with them.
doesn't notice inconsistencies much.
they usually come from poorer families than the Se subtype.
judge claude frollo, hillary clinton, and vladimir putin are examples of this type.
ILE-Ti are willing to let them go or make them go, so the ILE-Ti isn't really a guardian angel of this subtype as supervision would suggest. Their emotional neediness and uncontrollable emotions and outbursts and predictability and thin-skinnedness and not processing as much information and inconsistency and not thinking independently and unoriginality and need for predictability and chain of command and being of practical less use to the ILE-Ti and being visually unattractive, not gentle, and having annoying voices while not being good at deductive logic nor quick nor elegant enough in explaining themselves and their need for others to follow their wishes alienate the ILE-Ti.
much more likely to support masculine gender norms
style of dress is much less sexy and certain details look ugly.
forces their beliefs on their children if they can, forces their children to go to the same church, doesn't allow their children to go to a different church.
excessively detailed on their speech and writings.
appears to have result, strategic, negativist dichotomies. more strongly declaring, aristocratic, and emotivist.
not good at deductive logic or determining cause and effect.
Resembles EIE-Ni and SLE-Se more.
more judgmental than Se sub

The Se subtype is:
more philosophical and better at mechanical things
more open-minded
more honest
more loyal, more principled, they're better at choosing who they're loyal to, they're more consistent throughout their whole lifetime
more feminine, more beautiful
flatter buttocks
more gentle (vibe)
more cognitively flexible
stiffer upper back
more flexible legs
better at strategy
better at improvising
easier to get along with, less demanding
more playful, wittier, more elegant with words
voice is softer.
gives all of the details
more precisely thought out written and oral expression
less neurotic
more creative
always in control of their emotions, has less, and doesn't reveal them anywhere near as much as the Ti subtype,
better at reading peoples' emotions
doesn't smile in photos as much, and it's a lot less sincere of a smile; their smiles visually resemble those of ILE-Ti.
actually likes and dislikes people less, is more objective and impersonal than the Ti subtype
much better at figuring out GUIs
can be programmers (the Ti subtype can't nearly as much, Ti subtype isn't as good at logic and math)
much more clear thinking than the Ti subtype
much more socially skilled (because they're better at reading people, are more independent, and are better coordinated)
much less emotionally empathetic while being more cognitively empathetic.
much more elegant in words and clothing, accessories, has better looking movements, looks better, more feminine.
more likely to be female (most LSI-Se are females).
women have bigger build, one of the types most common to have sexy apple shape figure.
O negative blood type very common
attached earlobes very common
has high perceptual reasoning (especially block design, figure weights, picture completion) and spatial and visuo-motor iq and sometimes high verbal iq.
resembles the NT researcher club.
resemble ILE-Ti and especially SLE-Ti more in appearance and facial expressions
1w9, 3, 4, 5, 6, and 8w7 are more common as are sx/sp, so/sx sp/sx and sx/so.
are more likely to have doctorates, you'll rarely find Ti-subtype engineers or surgeons or psychiatrists, although some Ti-subtypes will be psychiatric nurses.
much better at getting what and who they want out of life, don't fail if they set goals, can marry whoever they want.
taller on average
better at making money
better at managing money
better at analysis
more precise, accurate, and timely communication than the Ti-subtype
better at picking up on non-verbal cues
more objective in their dealings with people (less likely to treat someone based upon their likes or dislikes for them, if they like or dislike them at all).
sense of humor is drier, darker, and more original, and are more easily able to take a joke they have much less involuntary laughter and smiles as they have better coordination and stronger nerves
keeps track of their belongings better
keeps track of a changing situation better
has better focus
anglo-irish, ancient basque, afrikaaner, boer, calvinist, ashkenazi jewish, yayoi/modern japanese in direct matrilineal origin (mtdna haplogroups D and K).
encourages individuality, doesn't force their beliefs on their children
che guevara, elias disney, roy o. disney, are examples of this type. all of them had anglo-irish ancestry.
some of the most beautiful individuals are this subtype, they're much more physically and sexually attractive than the other subtype.
more deductive
uses reasoning more and less internally emotional than the other subtype, more cold-blooded.
asks more questions, makes fewer assumptions.
resembles SLE-Ti and EIE-Fe more.
less judgmental than LSI-Ti
Grigory Reinin's LSI description and LSI tactical, process, and positivist Dichotomies were based on this subtype.
greater internal drive and energy levels, requires less sleep.
much quicker visual perception
better at conversations (they notice details and perceive what other people are saying as is and can converse more quickly and accurately)

[Overthinker]

Lol “the Virgin Ti-LSI versus the Chad Se-LSI”

[Disturbed]

Lol “the Virgin Ti-LSI versus the Chad Se-LSI”

Pretty much. Does that fit your observations too or were you just joking about what I was saying?

[Rebelondeck]

Behavioural differences between the two subtypes can be traced to Se-subs spending a lion's share (2/3 or more) of time on acquiring input while Ti-subs spends most of their time rationalizing; however, their processing priorities and structures are identical so cognitive processes are identical even though outcomes may vary slightly. The former may have more information to work with while the latter may have given more thought to a lesser data set; the ideal input-output balance is 50-50. Deep down (90% of an Ij is below the surface), ISTjs all think the same but in MBTI, some Se-subs may appear like ISTPs because MBTI is all about appearances (the 10% of an Ij)......

a.k.a. I/O

[Northstar]

Behavioural differences between the two subtypes can be traced to Se-subs spending a lion's share (2/3 or more) of time on acquiring input while Ti-subs spends most of their time rationalizing; however, their processing priorities and structures are identical so cognitive processes are identical even though outcomes may vary slightly. The former may have more information to work with while the latter may have given more thought to a lesser data set; the ideal input-output balance is 50-50. Deep down (90% of an Ij is below the surface), ISTjs all think the same but in MBTI, some Se-subs may appear like ISTPs because MBTI is all about appearances (the 10% of an Ij)......

a.k.a. I/O

Well, in MBTI tests I did consistently get ISTP, never ISTJ. They seem way too surface-level. The -Se subtype might be one reason I initially got typed SLI by some people (including you) here.