Understanding Fi of EIIs-INFjs and the origins of their empathy

[Creepy-Paul]

If I could express my theories in a short and clear and interesting way, I'd be so, so glad. Sorry.

I always find your post interesting. No need to be sorry.
Anyway, its true that we do get a lot of sensing and thinking pressure, esp. us guys so its very easy to have doubts and question the validity of what your own intuition is telling you. To everyone else it just doesnt seem to make any sense. Intuition is usually based on something, but that something may be vauge and unmeasurable at the time you 'see' it. I get so mad when I ignore my intuition in favor of someone elses judgment and then end up wrong. Once it cost me a good deal of money in a business deal.

To me, as an NT, intuition seems to be an ability to recognize obvious patterns that others, for whatever reasons, seem to miss. The ability to almost sense the causal chain. Logic is derived from observing and trying to codify the patterns of the universe. There is nothing illogical or magical about intuition.

[Creepy-Paul]

I think schrödinger's cat may be an INTp

[mike_INTJ]

If I could express my theories in a short and clear and interesting way, I'd be so, so glad. Sorry.

I always find your post interesting. No need to be sorry.
Anyway, its true that we do get a lot of sensing and thinking pressure, esp. us guys so its very easy to have doubts and question the validity of what your own intuition is telling you. To everyone else it just doesnt seem to make any sense. Intuition is usually based on something, but that something may be vauge and unmeasurable at the time you 'see' it. I get so mad when I ignore my intuition in favor of someone elses judgment and then end up wrong. Once it cost me a good deal of money in a business deal.

To me, as an NT, intuition seems to be an ability to recognize obvious patterns that others, for whatever reasons, seem to miss. The ability to almost sense the causal chain. Logic is derived from observing and trying to codify the patterns of the universe. There is nothing illogical or magical about intuition.

not completly. i've had a bad feeling, and it happened in a physical sense, where i couldn't have known at all if it was happening. like an accident that's about to happen - or the dreaded your fired speech. i've sensed it, even though it wasn't me, but i still felt it.

otherwise intuition is a pattern of events that are predictable enough to know what's going to happen. or the ability to feel yourself through something. they say that the intuition people have an easier time using a computer.

[UDP]

~ INFj...... but I'm not really sure what it is. I know what it is when I'm arond them, I can feel it. But to an INFj, what is it, exactly?


It it similar to how I use -- as in, everything gets filtered through it via 'logics' ?

[dreamer]

I am not sure. Sometimes I'm aware of myself using it but I'm not sure...exactly how and why...what it is.

[UDP]

Yeah.... I mean, I can understand -- in that I see it. But what is , really? Internalizing emotion, harboring it deeply?


I know a lot of INFjs who feel they have to do whatever is asked of them -- I am sure it has something to do with that. Perhaps some sort of ethical ideal... I assume it is the same way I feel about my logical principles or something like that.

[dreamer]

Oh right. We always have this other voice speaking. This voice tells us from right to wrong, goes to the past to see if I owe anyone anything. Don't mistake us for someone who always says yes though. I say yes for my own benefits either it's karma or if I ask for extra work, then it's for money. It's not like I do things out of my way for other people. I don't. I do have morals but I only think about those when I'm guility about something. Usually it's about my personal feelings/needs or what makes logical sense. And also, even if something makes logical sense, we can't help but be overwelmed by all the 'feelings'. Like each day, I go through different moods depending on what's happening and how I feel toward it. They say we're sorta internally wounded and I think that's true. Sometimes there's no reason to be but we're just SAD.

[schrödinger's cat]

Sorry, I'm not an INFj... but I've always had the impressions it's not a "set of principles" they apply to reality, it's what reality is LIKE. From Fi dominants, whenever my principles crashed with something they believed in deeply, I got this sense they were much too tactful and concerned to just stare at me and go: "How come you can't bloody SEE THAT?!", but that this was what they'd otherwise be doing.

[implied]

they may question the ethical behavior of other people, no? this pisses off an ESTp, but an ESTj/ISTp will appreciate someone to help fulfill his/her spiritual life, right?

[XoX]

I don't know if I'm a real INFj but I don't generally feel very empathic. If anything I'm sort of judging. Perhaps I'm empathic in the sense that I try not to openly judge people if I feel it would only hurt them not "cure" them. But generally I can't call myself an empath.

Do INFjs cry like rivers in funerals and such situations or is that more in the realm of ? I mean, in theory, there is plenty of people to empathize with in that kind of situation. Is that kind of situation difficult for an INFj?

[pesto]

I haven't found anything about this in type descriptions, but I think both types keep an emotional distance just because we deal with our own and others' emotions by feeling them ourselves. At least I prefer to be in spectator mode on funerals if I can keep that up. But in everyday situations when there's no risk of being flooded by emotions (that's the key) it's often harder to avoid feeling someone else's mood, especially if I'm stressed myself. It can be really exhausting, since I already feel my own emotions so strong. It's one thing to ignore your emotions for a short time, but in general I have to deal with them, so I can't be in that spectator mood all the time. (Hmm, does this still sound self contradicting?)

[science as magic]

wow, wait, let me back up here... we really do not like to see the majority of people in distress.... but then there is that significant few that we may feel it is in their best interest to have a taste of their own medicine. and this is the fun part!

so infjs are not all nice and fluffy? this was the only thing that seperated them from being totally useless sacks of shit in my mind. don't mind me i'm just being vindictive and spiteful. I guess I'm infj. medicine is rather bitter.... I will remember to rip your mind apart when the mental internet is deployed. <3

[UDP]

they may question the ethical behavior of other people, no? this pisses off an ESTp, but an ESTj/ISTp will appreciate someone to help fulfill his/her spiritual life, right?

Hmm, that kind of makes sense for me. I can talk to INFjs about spirituality pretty well, so long as they are open. I'm very compelled to 'care for' an INFj, which is kind of strange.... I definitely feel like I turn into ESTj mode a bit around them.

It's funny, because ESFjs make me feel very much like I have for the majority of my life -- very INTj.


The trouble for me is that ESFjs remind me a lot of my past... there is baggage there, and I've made some break thoughs in regard to confidence, spirituality, emotionality, and other paridigms since those earlier days of mine. So it is challenging sometimes to be around them IN THE WAY I want to be. But at the same time, perhaps that is a weakness I should try to shore up.

[meatburger]

it sounds as though when i speak of INFjs and our deep emotions online that we just sit around and cry about stuff all the time. this is far from the truth... because we can appear very aloof or indifferent in person, so don't be suprised if our outside contradicts our inside.

Thanks Fever. Thats interesting to know. I have an INFj friend and he does seem EXACTLY like you described in person. Although he often talks about his feeings to me, he asks for advice. Problem is as a mirror, my advice probablly sucks.

[dreamer]

Yeah. I act totally dramatic and emotional online but off line, I'm more controlled, aloof, emotionless unless it's laughter. That's why I was mistaken for a INFP or I mistake myself for one. I was thinking about my online side. I don't cry at funerals unless it's something I can relate to. I thought I would. More likely that I'll cry if someone else is crying so I feel their pain.

[dreamer]

Hmm. I disagree. ENFPs are too focused on other people, society, a social life, latest trends. I like hanging out with them and we hardy ever fight but we don't connect on a deeper level and they can't help me with my weaknesses.

[dreamer]

I don't really know any ESTJs so I can't say but it's not totally a bad idea, especially the EST, ying to my yang, you know.

I have always been fond of INTPs so perhaps INTJs too.

Though I might want someone extrovert so we don't hide in our house all day long. I like meeting people and talking, I just sorta need backup. But then those who care too much about social life annoys me.

I don't want a feeling type because I'm emotional enough.

ESTJ/INTJ/INTP/ENTJ more than the others... but I think it's got a lot to do with personal opinion.

I value intelligent and deep thinking in a potential mate although I can't deal with someone who's illogical/far-fetched. Someone who's down-to-earth, modest, mysterious, responsible but not like...boring suit type of person.

[pesto]

@fever: Thanks!

they may question the ethical behavior of other people, no? this pisses off an ESTp, but an ESTj/ISTp will appreciate someone to help fulfill his/her spiritual life, right?

It depends on what you mean. I will point out potentially hurtful behaviour. That is all. But I don't juge and I'm not a moralist or the PC-police. If anyone takes it as such it is entirely based on their own narrow assumptions. We are not the ones who take on a set of opinions and use it to determine who's with or against them. There is no way I would think that opinions (as opposed to values) are bad, since being an INFj means my change over time.

[Minde]

Do INFjs cry like rivers in funerals and such situations or is that more in the realm of ? I mean, in theory, there is plenty of people to empathize with in that kind of situation. Is that kind of situation difficult for an INFj?

I cry at funerals... if it's someone I knew, someone I had a personal connection with. That type of deep division between that person and myself hurts. But, as fever said, the tears are not really a display so much as a reaction and a releasing of the sorrow/deep emotion that I feel. It's very quiet and not meant for other people to see.

More likely that I'll cry if someone else is crying so I feel their pain.

Yeah, if someone else is crying, I'm a lot more likely to do so as well.

Of course, there are other times where I just completely detach myself from the emotions of others. Usually that happens when I've had an overload in some area of my life. I still have a sense of right and wrong, but that whole empathy thing just... quits.

My empathy also tends to depend on if I feel the other person deserves it. A child crying over her dead father is a lot more likely to turn me into an emotional puddle than a woman bemoaning her tenth divorce. The child cannot change her circumstances; the woman can.

i think people sense that we are kind individuals, but we do not discuss or really show our emotions much at all in everyday situations.

Funny that you say that, because while people often say they consider me a kind and compassionate person, people also call me very calm and... how to put it... steady? Even-keeled? Boring? Dispassionate? People say I handle situations calmly (though I think some of it just comes from experience). Then again, I've also been told that I have a very expressive face.

I know a lot of INFjs who feel they have to do whatever is asked of them -- I am sure it has something to do with that. Perhaps some sort of ethical ideal... I assume it is the same way I feel about my logical principles or something like that.

Let me see. Introverted feeling makes them responsive to people's needs. Put that together with weak extroverted sensing, you get an individual who finds it hard to reject people's requests.

Umm, yes. Exactly.

[Minde]

Ok, so I have a question. I know the functions have been defined over and over again, in multiple ways by multiple people. But I'm still not an expert and (in my case) additional clarification wouldn't hurt.

I picture as the bubbly surface emotions, the type that your drama teacher wants to see. It's the emotions that belong to other people, the ones that are meant to affect them. In contrast, is more what you feel when you hold a newborn, watch a sunset, or pray. It's the emotions that belong to you.

Is that a semi-correct understanding of those functions?

[niveK]

Ok, so I have a question. I know the functions have been defined over and over again, in multiple ways by multiple people. But I'm still not an expert and (in my case) additional clarification wouldn't hurt.

I picture as the bubbly surface emotions, the type that your drama teacher wants to see. It's the emotions that belong to other people, the ones that are meant to affect them. In contrast, is more what you feel when you hold a newborn, watch a sunset, or pray. It's the emotions that belong to you.

Is that a semi-correct understanding of those functions?

It seems like is always described as major displays of emotion and drama, somewhat in a negative, or at the very least, unsubtle light. I think, though, that types feel compelled to express whatever they feel (the extraverted nature of the function). It's much like types feel compelled to mess with different ideas, or types making practical use of their thinking. types are also aware of the external expression of emotions and feel that emotions should be expressed to be fully felt, unlike the type that feels expression isn't necessary, but rather one should experience the subjective response to the feeling, and that expressing every emotion is unnecessary and even pointless.

[XoX]

A lot is said about INFjs unable to reject people's requests. Can you give examples of this? Perhaps some more extreme cases? I don't have a clear picture of how far this behavior can go and whether it is healthy and respectable behavior or something INFjs should unlearn.

[dreamer]

I can just imagine myself doing this and it makes me laugh.

Boy approaches INFJ. Boy hits on INFJ. INFJ is a bit puzzled by boy's attraction but flattered nevertheless. Boy keeps talking and INFJ is not feeling the deep connection. INFJ wonders how to break it to the boy. INFJ feels slightly bad for all the trouble he's going through by talking to her, buying her the drink and all. Feels like she owe him something. (Others might just walk away) Boy then goes into how he doesn't have a lot of friends. INFJ feels bad. INFJ proceeds to 'heal' the boy by making him feel better. INFJ might look around the room and play matchmaker for the boy.



It depends on what the request is and who it's coming from. Even so, if I don't see myself being benefit from it, I wouldn't do it. I think most INFJs feel this way although some might be too nice and try to please everyone. As INFJs get older I guess and realize their little quirks, accept themselves and such, I think they get more aggressive and learn how to stick up for themselves and say no.

[UDP]

Recognizing how it could be a problem, (although it isn't always, in some cases it's a good thing because I really don't mind helping other people, and am glad when I have truly helped) anyway, it really helps to have someone remind me from time to time to take care of me.

I'm always reminding INFjs to be careful about things and take care of themselves. It's not that I don't think they can do it, but it just seems like there is a need to be reminded.

Since INFjs, generally speaking, are aware of their conduct, they subconsciously expect that from others (INFjs, correct me if this is wrong). So, if they meet people who are ... to bluntly put it... ethically self-aware, they don't have to be wary of exploitation. However, if they meet someone who is aware of their seemingly compliant tendencies and wants to use it to "get things done," then they will be in for a hard time.

It makes sesne to me, because that has to do with the INFj reserve.

[Minde]

It seems like is always described as major displays of emotion and drama, somewhat in a negative, or at the very least, unsubtle light. I think, though, that types feel compelled to express whatever they feel (the extraverted nature of the function). It's much like types feel compelled to mess with different ideas, or types making practical use of their thinking. types are also aware of the external expression of emotions and feel that emotions should be expressed to be fully felt, unlike the type that feels expression isn't necessary, but rather one should experience the subjective response to the feeling, and that expressing every emotion is unnecessary and even pointless.

When I said "the type that your drama teacher wants to see," I didn't mean to cast in a negative light. It was more an analogy of emotion. Just as an actor is attempting to share his emotions with the audience (that is his purpose), so directs the emotion toward the outside of oneself. It's about where/to whom the emotion belongs, inside or outside of the self.

So, I think we're on the same page, though I apologize if I made sound bad.

Minde, nice to see you posting again. I get the feeling when reading your posts that you've written just what I would say, but better. From a lot of your posts I get that feeling.

Thanks! Computer use has been impractical and close to impossible for the past couple of months, but now that summer's over I'll probably show up here a little more often. Oh, and I get the same feeling about many of your posts.

A lot is said about INFjs unable to reject people's requests. Can you give examples of this? Perhaps some more extreme cases? I don't have a clear picture of how far this behavior can go and whether it is healthy and respectable behavior or something INFjs should unlearn.

One somewhat extreme example of this in my own life is a relationship I had in my first year of college. Long story short, I befriended a girl who had some serious emotional (and some physical) needs. She kept taking and taking from me until I was really the only friend she had left. I drove her places, sat with her at meals, and helped her with her homework. Eventually, my family and (real) friends knocked some sense in me and helped me break off the relationship (I can't really call it a friendship). She needed more than what I could give her (professional help) and I needed my life back.

This strong feature in INFjs can be seen as both a strength and a weakness, just like any other strong trait in anyone. It's obviously a weakness in that they can be taken advantage of. I have to be careful that I don't let people walk all over me. But it's also a strength in that it is a strong humanitarian drive. Self-sacrifice, a willingness to give of oneself to others, when properly focused and justifiably aimed, has made the world a better place. Think Mother Theresa. (BTW, this is not to say that wonderful woman was an INFj, just that she is a good example of self-sacrifice and compassion working miracles on a grand scale.)

So, I don't think INFjs should fight this tendency, just be aware of their own limitations and those of the people around them (sometimes, you just can't save the world – it simply refuses to be saved).

I'm always reminding INFjs to be careful about things and take care of themselves. It's not that I don't think they can do it, but it just seems like there is a need to be reminded.

I don't know about other INFjs, but I personally don't mind it when people do that. It says to me that you care about me.

[niveK]

When I said "the type that your drama teacher wants to see," I didn't mean to cast in a negative light. It was more an analogy of emotion. Just as an actor is attempting to share his emotions with the audience (that is his purpose), so directs the emotion toward the outside of oneself. It's about where/to whom the emotion belongs, inside or outside of the self.

So, I think we're on the same page, though I apologize if I made sound bad.

I didn't mean to insinuate you had done so. I get that feeling rather often from other descriptions. I liked the actor analogy.

[Minde]

No, I don't. I think her surface personality covered a lot of what was going on inside of her. She was very smiley on the outside, but it was a fake smile that glossed over the darkness and emptiness behind it.

[UDP]

Here we go

There is a lot of talk about INFjs using , and being dominant, but what does that mean? It seems you guys have a terrible time actually expressing your feelings. I understand the subtlety, but, how do you actually choose to show it?

It seems sometimes INFjs I know just.....expect.... things? Like they are constantly waiting for other people's initiative. Just today, an INFj saw things as "a wall of silence" between it and someone else, when in fact there was minimal, extremely minimal, effort on its part to actually communicate and make contact with one person.

Is this because it is so hard for INFjs to really express things? How do you really deal with things like this? What are you looking for? And what can people do - how can they act towards you - to make things go as smoothly and efficiently as possible? What do you need to be able to properly express your feelings towards other people?

And in general, do you just not like to call or start up any sort of talking with people? Do you just generally prefer if others do?

[UDP]

And, how do INFjs express their bonds with people?
How do you show your ties, or demonstrate your relationship standing with people?

I do agree that ESTjs can be very "fair," as you say, about not giving someone more attention than another. But, it's annoying when they do it to people who don't really care about the attention. It stops being "fair" because you're wasting your time with people who don't really care, there is no investment. Of course, I'm not talking about family. Maybe INFjs and ENFps are better at recognizing this, I am not sure. If a friend does this to me, showing more attention to people who are strangers to the point of forgetting that you are even there, then that is a definite -1000 points... Go read a Friendship for Dummies book.

Like here, what would you have done, or how would you have indicated to that ESTj that your relationship bond was something important? What would you have done (obviously before the party event) to indicate that the ESTj ought to give you special attention for being a good friend or of an elevated friend status, etc?

[tereg]

Here we go

There is a lot of talk about INFjs using , and being dominant, but what does that mean? It seems you guys have a terrible time actually expressing your feelings. I understand the subtlety, but, how do you actually choose to show it?

It seems sometimes INFjs I know just.....expect.... things? Like they are constantly waiting for other people's initiative. Just today, an INFj saw things as "a wall of silence" between it and someone else, when in fact there was minimal, extremely minimal, effort on its part to actually communicate and make contact with one person.

Is this because it is so hard for INFjs to really express things? How do you really deal with things like this? What are you looking for? And what can people do - how can they act towards you - to make things go as smoothly and efficiently as possible? What do you need to be able to properly express your feelings towards other people?

And in general, do you just not like to call or start up any sort of talking with people? Do you just generally prefer if others do?

What using means to me is a subtle concept. It's a constant internal assessment which can manifest itself in my body language. Whether it's an internal conflict or whether I am comfortable in my environment. What I'm doing is deep down, I'm seeing and analyzing my place in the environment and assessing whether or not I "fit" or if it's justified to be there or how comfortable I am.

I choose to show or express myself to others when I feel comfortable. I am most comfortable in an environment where I don't feel pressure or tension or pressed to act... when I have the freedom to express myself without fear of retaliation. If I know the other person or people will be receptive, patient and respectful when I ramble... when the other person knows I'm trying my best to communicate but knows I might do things that are frustrating... I am very comfortable. When I don't feel like I'm going to be judged based on what I say.

I think when you say that people like me expect things, it comes down to an assumption that I make of other people. I assume that people have important things to do and already have time mapped out. I don't like interfering with people when I feel or sense that they have something important that needs to get done. So yes, that can definitely be seen as expecting initiation from other people. But again, it comes down to comfort level. If I don't get that pressing need sense from other people, then I can be very alive and expressive and show initiation.

As I said in the other thread, I put a lot of emphasis on expressing things that have a high amount of quality. I don't like talking out of my ass or missing details. And so, yes, it is frustrating and it is a struggle to express myself the way I want to express myself. I try to accomodate other people by being precise and honest and to the point. And that does not come naturally to me. Sometimes there are "too many things going on in my head" that I'm "trying to sort out", but what I'm saying is, is that I don't want to ramble about each individual thing that I'm trying to gather, but instead find a neat way to explain everything as a collective.

The thing that makes me the most calm in others is when people show patience with me. I am fully aware of how long-winded I can be, and I have a peace of mind when I know that other people are willing to sit through it and help me work it out. And when the patience starts to run thin (which is apt to happen because I tend to beat on the same drum for a long, long time) then I start to withdraw because I don't want to incite more of that.

I don't expect people to have infinite patience with me. I fully understand and recognize that a lot of people have their breaking point or stopping point. So it's a constant struggle for me to find a way to explain something without crossing that line of the other person.

And I think this can be explain in situations where I will "see the writing on the wall". I've been in situations where I've felt like... you know I've been talking too much or I feel like I've worn out my welcome, and many times it feels like it's because I over extended how I expressed myself. So, if I pick up that vibe (even if it doesn't really exist at that moment) where I say "I know when I'm not wanted around here", then I withdraw and just disappear out the back door. There's this constant struggle to find a balance between being expressive but not being so in-your-face to make other people repel... this "Ok Ok Ok Ok... I get it"

I think in most situations I find myself in, I prefer other people initializing conversation. But, there are times, albeit not often, but still often, where I am in a comfortable environment and I will find people or a group that I can feel comfortable in (which might include someone I haven't met before). It takes a lot of energy to meet someone or approach someone whom I haven't met before. I can do it, but it's like this conscious decision I have to make each time.

[UDP]

Thank you for sharing that.

[tereg]

And, how do INFjs express their bonds with people?
How do you show your ties, or demonstrate your relationship standing with people?

I do agree that ESTjs can be very "fair," as you say, about not giving someone more attention than another. But, it's annoying when they do it to people who don't really care about the attention. It stops being "fair" because you're wasting your time with people who don't really care, there is no investment. Of course, I'm not talking about family. Maybe INFjs and ENFps are better at recognizing this, I am not sure. If a friend does this to me, showing more attention to people who are strangers to the point of forgetting that you are even there, then that is a definite -1000 points... Go read a Friendship for Dummies book.

Like here, what would you have done, or how would you have indicated to that ESTj that your relationship bond was something important? What would you have done (obviously before the party event) to indicate that the ESTj ought to give you special attention for being a good friend or of an elevated friend status, etc?

I express my bonds through encouragement. And again, I strive for quality in that encouragement. I don't say things just to say them or to butter them up. I will say it from the depths of my soul. What I see in them is truth. I will often say things to a person that I truly feel are good qualities I see in them.

In the situation you've quoted, I would indicate to an ESTj who values my time by saying something like this in a 1-on-1 converstaion. "I want you to know that I really appreciate the energy, effort and attention that you give me when I talk to you. I enjoy being in your company, and I feel comfortable talking to you. I don't feel nervous around you and I really appreciate it when you take time out for me because I see in you a work ethic that is very dedicated and for you to take some time out to talk to me really is a special thing for me."

But specifically in the situation... if I have that sense that Sereno was talking about, where I get a sense that someone is spending time with someone who doesn't appreciate their efforts, expressing that displeasure is kept internally. In honesty, it is a sense of jealousy that I don't want to outwardly show. And I say that because what's going on in my mind is that if I expressed that displeasure, then it feels like I'm forcing an agenda to them. I'm dictating how they should act socially, and that is unacceptable to me, so I will not outwardly criticize what they decide to do socially.

So I don't think expressing to someone that they should spend more time with me sits well with me. And also to tell someone that they shouldn't be hanging around certain people who are unappreciative doesn't sit well with me.

[tereg]

There's more I can say about this, but I had to cut that last post short. Something's come up that I need to take care of.

[Lobo]

Here we go

There is a lot of talk about INFjs using , and being dominant, but what does that mean? It seems you guys have a terrible time actually expressing your feelings. I understand the subtlety, but, how do you actually choose to show it?

It seems sometimes INFjs I know just.....expect.... things? Like they are constantly waiting for other people's initiative. Just today, an INFj saw things as "a wall of silence" between it and someone else, when in fact there was minimal, extremely minimal, effort on its part to actually communicate and make contact with one person.

Is this because it is so hard for INFjs to really express things? How do you really deal with things like this? What are you looking for? And what can people do - how can they act towards you - to make things go as smoothly and efficiently as possible? What do you need to be able to properly express your feelings towards other people?

And in general, do you just not like to call or start up any sort of talking with people? Do you just generally prefer if others do?

I doubt you will find a more detailed and accurate explanation than what tereg wrote... However, there are some things I can add. For one, I am good at picking up certain body signals and actions that help me measure people up. Maybe what you mention of the "wall of silence" has more to do with non-verbal communication than just talking, or getting a feeling of not being able to "connect" to the person at all.

You mention that you want things to go "smoothly and efficiently as possible," so I'm hopefully assuming that you are talking about work? If not, then that will definitely be a problem...

Actually, I always initiate coversations with people, sometimes the other way around. I don't really pay attention to who did it first. If I don't initiate, it's either because I don't like you, not sure if I can trust you, or it may well be (though unlikely) that I am shy.

The best thing you could do is say what you wrote above. "Are you not comfortable enough to share your feelings?" As simple as that. I respond well to people who are honest to me.

[Jarno]

It seems you guys have a terrible time actually expressing your feelings.

This is really typical. I've had 2 short relationships with INFJ women. They both didn't give any clue whatsoever how the felt about me, if they liked me etc.

Even when I directly asked for clarity, they gave a sort of vague, or just no answer at all.

They do not show love directly.

[tereg]

The best thing you could do is say what you wrote above. "Are you not comfortable enough to share your feelings?" As simple as that. I respond well to people who are honest to me.

I concur. I also respond very well to this and to honesty as well.

[tereg]

So I don't think expressing to someone that they should spend more time with me sits well with me. And also to tell someone that they shouldn't be hanging around certain people who are unappreciative doesn't sit well with me.

I think what I wanted to say to wrap this thought up was that this feels uncomfortable to me because when I ask myself "Who am I to judge the character of someone in this manner?", I can't. Who am I to say that my perception of some person I perceive as unappreciative is accurate? Which then leads to another layer of questions about trusting my instincts -- that's a whole separate but important issue in dictating my actions. But I think honestly what happens in my case is, I keep it internal instead of voicing what I feel about an assumption I have about a person. I'm afraid of being wrong about a person and embarrassing myself because... well, I've been in that spot enough to know that it's an extremely uncomfortable situation. And I take things like negative reactions to heart. It is an inward call to adjust.

But this goes back to ... it's kind of like keeping an emotional leash on myself. There are times when I make an assumption about a person, like the one above. And then when I actually get to know them they aren't what I thought they were. And it's through these experiences that I temper the outward display of criticism.

As for direct questions for clarity. Again, I can definitely imagine situations where the emotional atmosphere is pressurized where I would not be able to answer that question of clarity. And it would give a cold impression to the other person. It's about comfort level for me, which can be achieved through honesty, but not in a demanding manner.

Sereno's question is a perfect example of honesty that is unassuming and not demanding.

[Lobo]

This is really typical. I've had 2 short relationships with INFJ women. They both didn't give any clue whatsoever how the felt about me, if they liked me etc.

Even when I directly asked for clarity, they gave a sort of vague, or just no answer at all.

They do not show love directly.

MBTI INFJ does not necessarily equal Socionics INFj. Also, you are saying that they don't show love directly, and then you ask them for clarity? It doesn't make sense that you know they love you and yet you ask them to clarify...

[munenori2]

I don't express my feelings overtly, unless I think it's something that you seem to need to hear. I don't often need to be told how someone feels about me, their actions are usually good hints [stress on hints]. Rather, I try to show it through the things I do for a person. What I'm getting at I guess is that I know how I feel and, to a lesser extent, I generally can grasp at what someone else does.

That isn't to say that I don't make mistakes, I do, which is why I agree with tereg on being a reason that I may come off as so reserved. There is a lot of second guessing, a lot of giving the benefit of the doubt ("well, maybe they're dealing with something I don't understand", "Maybe I'm projecting my own feelings onto them", etc). It might not be inaccurate to say that there is a systemic doubt involved, that my own familiarity with how I myself can be so complex or conflicted that lends me to extend this in my relations with others.

In that sense, and it might sound weird to say, but I spend a lot of time acclimating myself to the people I meet. The closest analogy that comes to mind is a sort of mental 'staring' at somebody, though I like to think that there's no rudeness involved. On the contrary, the intentions are far from it. What I mean by that is that there is a lot of thought given to how the people I concern myself with go about things, what they want or need, and why they think so. I end up observing quite a bit and thinking about you for even days at a time to make sense of things.

The reason that others might perceive INFjs as having a difficult time in expressing our feelings is a more complicated issue and has a lot to do with perspective. I know I at least speak for myself in saying that, as vastly interested as I am in the workings of other people, I find my own self to be far less fascinating. There is sort of the impression (partially based on experience) that, as well as the general doubts that are harbored as to my appraisals of other people, what strikes me as important isn't shared universally. Thus, I kind of reflect on my observations as possibly being a burden on my interactions with others, at least until I've come to understand them more clearly.

So, basically what it seems to boil down to is this:

1) a surface assumption that what we perceive is more or less commonly accessible to others (we aren't contributing something unique).
2) that there is a complexity to the matter that can't be captured and, if it is, only is vaguely generalizable. There is always a pervasive uncertainty that comes packaged in any view of how people think, feel, and act.
3) that even if our input was unique, it is hardly valued by everyone else. In some cases it is thoroughly rejected.
4) as well as the somewhat more harshly taken reaction by the INFj of being rejected by someone else, especially someone you would like to be on good terms with.

[Minde]

Is this because it is so hard for INFjs to really express things? How do you really deal with things like this? What are you looking for? And what can people do - how can they act towards you - to make things go as smoothly and efficiently as possible? What do you need to be able to properly express your feelings towards other people?

What do you mean by "properly express your feelings"? Can you give some examples of what you consider both properly and improperly expressed feelings? Preferably at least two of each. I want to understand what you're thinking here.