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Thread: Trust issues in quadra (Gamma posters thread split)

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    Default Trust issues in quadra (Gamma posters thread split)

    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush View Post
    another one:

    Attachment 8907
    I have a question. Because I have seen this trust-lying issue associated with gamma values I had wondered if it was in anyway antithetical to alpha quadra values. Are people more forgiving in alpha personalities then they might be in gamma ones?

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    Quote Originally Posted by wacey View Post
    I have a question. Because I have seen this trust-lying issue associated with gamma values I had wondered if it was in anyway antithetical to alpha quadra values. Are people more forgiving in alpha personalities then they might be in gamma ones?
    Yes, people in Ne valuing quadras prefer to (perhaps somewhat naively, especially to Ni valuers) assume good intentions of others. This depends on a type's usage of Ni vs Ne generally.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush View Post
    Yes, people in Ne valuing quadras prefer to (perhaps somewhat naively, especially to Ni valuers) assume good intentions of others. This depends on a type's usage of Ni vs Ne generally.
    I don't think so, I am quite an easily trusting person and definitely not Ne valuer.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Persephone View Post
    I don't think so, I am quite an easily trusting person and definitely not Ne valuer.
    What is your type?

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    "Extroverts" and "Feelers" (in MBTI terms) score significantly higher on Trust ("belief in the sincerity and good intentions of others") than average: http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...ions?p=1131923 (which would suggest that scores especially high on that value).

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    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush View Post
    What is your type?
    I self type IEI. Other commonly suggested types are ILI, ESI and EIE.


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    Yes, they oppose. In polemic words: It's like comparing Disneyland and the Italian mafia.

    --> Alpha types generally dislike that something is going on behind the scenes, good faith and forgiving is their preferred way. Fe wants to preserve the positivity, Ne sees too many ways to suspect something particular.

    --> Whereas in Gamma, resentment and suspicion are preferred in order to avoid making a wrong move. Fi and Ni keep a keen eye on how well relations develop while predicting the outcome of `shady´ actions.

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    I'm almost certainly LII or EII and I find that I genuinely want to trust people. At first, I will be trusting and assume someone has good intentions but if they mess up, it can be hard for me to move past that. I can forgive but its very difficult for me to forget. Even if the person is genuinely sorry I can still vividly remember the incident when they let me down.
    LII-Ne with strong EII tendencies, 6w7-9w1-3w4 so/sp/sx, INxP



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    Are 'good intentions' and 'trustworthy' mutually exclusive? I would emphatically say no.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lungs View Post
    Are 'good intentions' and 'trustworthy' mutually exclusive? I would emphatically say no.
    Good intentions --> wanting the best outcome that's beneficial
    Trustworthiness --> being reliable in a sense of not betraying

    Someone trustworthy definitely has good intentions so that's correct.

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    What's correct?

    I've had good intentions and still had values contrary to others, still hurt people intentionally or unintentionally, still failed to follow through on my intentions out of fear or self preservation, etc. This is common sense.

    Intentions are irrelevant.

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    I wonder if Ne valuers or egos are more prone to thinking in terms of intentions in the first place, since intentions hold potential.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lungs View Post
    I wonder if Ne valuers or egos are more prone to thinking in terms of intentions in the first place, since intentions hold potential.
    Possibly.
    LII-Ne with strong EII tendencies, 6w7-9w1-3w4 so/sp/sx, INxP



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    Quote Originally Posted by Persephone View Post
    I self type IEI. Other commonly suggested types are ILI, ESI and EIE.
    I would say yes, it's less common for IEIs, who generally have a more "positive" form of Ni.

    Quote Originally Posted by lungs View Post
    Are 'good intentions' and 'trustworthy' mutually exclusive? I would emphatically say no.
    (I guess you mean bad intentions here?) Basically what Chae said:

    Quote Originally Posted by Chae View Post
    Yes, they oppose. In polemic words: It's like comparing Disneyland and the Italian mafia.

    --> Alpha types generally dislike that something is going on behind the scenes, good faith and forgiving is their preferred way. Fe wants to preserve the positivity, Ne sees too many ways to suspect something particular.

    --> Whereas in Gamma, resentment and suspicion are preferred in order to avoid making a wrong move. Fi and Ni keep a keen eye on how well relations develop while predicting the outcome of `shady´ actions.
    It's about the underlying psychological process of evaluation, which is similar for both. If you're going to lie to someone most likely your intentions are not good.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush View Post
    It's about the underlying psychological process of evaluation, which is similar for both. If you're going to lie to someone most likely your intentions are not good.
    Yes and no. Generally, lying means having bad intentions. But some people lie to spare someone, not wanting to confront them with a hurtful reality. As a consequence, more damage may be done, but this is not the point. The lie itself has the motivation of giving false information to guide whatever is going on, accompanied mostly by fear.

    Example: I lied to my teacher about my homework when I was younger. On the one hand, I didn't want them to know that I didn't do them, knowing that I would seem less diligent and reliable in their eyes, which is something they were proud of, something that they liked, something that made their own work easier. I did not want to disappoint/disturb their competency, plans and expectations. On the other hand, I lied to cover up my shortcoming which was tied to my fragile self-esteem. So it was a two-way thing. My lie was the most efficient way to avoid something I didn't want (=that I feared for myself and the other person). In a nutshell: It really depends on the case how it works out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chae View Post
    Yes and no. Generally, lying means having bad intentions. But some people lie to spare someone, not wanting to confront them with a hurtful reality. As a consequence, more damage may be done, but this is not the point. The lie itself has the motivation of giving false information to guide whatever is going on, accompanied mostly by fear.

    Example: I lied to my teacher about my homework when I was younger. On the one hand, I didn't want them to know that I didn't do them, knowing that I would seem less diligent and reliable in their eyes, which is something they were proud of, something that they liked, something that made their own work easier. I did not want to disappoint/disturb their competency, plans and expectations. On the other hand, I lied to cover up my shortcoming which was tied to my fragile self-esteem. So it was a two-way thing. My lie was the most efficient way to avoid something I didn't want (=that I feared for myself and the other person). In a nutshell: It really depends on the case how it works out.
    And you can see how that conflicts with the need for factual accuracy. A type that values rather than will generally care less about what the intended emotional effect of the message was than its factual content.

    So basically yes, there is a mismatch with how different quadras describe the same phenomena.

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    If somebody lied to spare my feelings I could simultaneously believe they have good intentions and not trust them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush View Post
    And you can see how that conflicts with the need for factual accuracy. A type that values rather than will generally care less about what the intended emotional effect of the message was than its factual content.

    So basically yes, there is a mismatch with how different quadras describe the same phenomena.
    Conflicts in what way?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    "Extroverts" and "Feelers" (in MBTI terms) score significantly higher on Trust ("belief in the sincerity and good intentions of others") than average: http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...ions?p=1131923 (which would suggest that scores especially high on that value).
    Can't relate. Trust has to be earned, and periodically reassessed, not freely given. Based on my personal experience, I'd say that Ne types are indeed more inclined to have "innocent until proven guilty" approach to relationships. Also prone to commit the same mistakes in judgement again, due to the whole trying to keep an open mind thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by lungs View Post
    What's correct?

    I've had good intentions and still had values contrary to others, still hurt people intentionally or unintentionally, still failed to follow through on my intentions out of fear or self preservation, etc. This is common sense.

    Intentions are irrelevant.
    The road to hell...I agree.

    Quote Originally Posted by lungs View Post
    If somebody lied to spare my feelings I could simultaneously believe they have good intentions and not trust them.
    x2

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chae View Post
    Conflicts in what way?
    Because it's lying

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    Quote Originally Posted by lungs View Post
    Are 'good intentions' and 'trustworthy' mutually exclusive? I would emphatically say no.
    Quote Originally Posted by lungs View Post
    What's correct?

    I've had good intentions and still had values contrary to others, still hurt people intentionally or unintentionally, still failed to follow through on my intentions out of fear or self preservation, etc. This is common sense.

    Intentions are irrelevant.
    Having good intentions and being trustworthy are not the same thing, but the two are certainly related in most cases. Exceptions are easy to imagine, but likely exist in the minority. There's a certain risk-benefit analysis inherent in trusting and having faith in people. I can resent the characterization of trust/faith as naive, because it feels more like a choice that is often vulnerable and anxious.

    I aim to have a generally trusting and open-minded attitude with people, not only because it benefits my mood and beliefs, but seems to impact their mood, response to me, and how well we can work together. And to risk being cheesy, I think that if you're putting good vibes into the universe, the waves of influence can reach surprising heights and distances. I don't know if all of this makes me EII > ESI, but it's something that I do consider when I'm playing around with my self-typing.

    Intentions are not irrelevant imo, as they're related to a person's entire inner world. To discount them is to minimize a person's experience.

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    ;p



    I really dont like being told to look past peoples behavior or forgive them because they have good intentions. I can see how that would be perceived as discounting their inner experience - thats a fair point - but my goals in such instances are less about being a living affirmation of their experience and more about standing in tandem with my own.

    As for trust, i dont see myself as especially distrustful towards people who have given no indication of their trustworthiness either way. But I have difficulty gauging how trusting I am when I try to see myself on a scale. It's a blank area when I try to introspect. Edit: I also don't see trusting as naive or a weakness. I think a high degree of openness towards others (which I guess I don't have much of, when I think about it this way) has both advantages and disadvantages. I definitely miss out on some positive experiences. And it would take a lot of bravery to be more open.
    Last edited by ashlesha; 11-06-2016 at 01:30 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    "Extroverts" and "Feelers" (in MBTI terms) score significantly higher on Trust ("belief in the sincerity and good intentions of others") than average...
    That makes sense. I tend to trust until I have been given strong reason not to; only then I am cautious. It also makes sense because my husband and I have seen his SEE daughter too often trust (or fall for) the wrong people. (We are very glad she is now with a guy we both think is decent and sincere).
    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
    ........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........


    "Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
    by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
    attitude acceptable to today's standards."
    - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"

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    .
    .


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    Quote Originally Posted by April View Post
    I aim to have a generally trusting and open-minded attitude with people, not only because it benefits my mood and beliefs, but seems to impact their mood, response to me, and how well we can work together. And to risk being cheesy, I think that if you're putting good vibes into the universe, the waves of influence can reach surprising heights and distances. I don't know if all of this makes me EII > ESI,
    I don't know what your self-type is, but this particular way of being sounds more EII than ESI....

    ESI is more careful, and that is smart. I remember at the time of my divorce, finding out that all these people I thought were my friends in fact weren't my friends come my time of messy difficultly. They were willing to listen to wrong stories about me, and back off, rather than check with me to see if they were true, for example. It was quite a shock to realize how very small my actual pool of real friends was. But I realized besides the sad disappointment of that, was the good solid knowing of who actually was a true freind. Maybe ESI's get that all narrowed down up front, and don't have experience that kind of shock, at inopportune times...
    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
    ........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........


    "Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
    by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
    attitude acceptable to today's standards."
    - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"

    .
    .
    .


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    Quote Originally Posted by lungs View Post
    I wonder if Ne valuers or egos are more prone to thinking in terms of intentions in the first place, since intentions hold potential.
    I do think of intentions while ignoring the offense typically. After learning the hard way that some people do not actually have secret good intentions under their bad actions, that instead some people's bad actions simply represent who they are to the core - I am now less likely to assume good intentions any more. Instead, I "leave it open" - acknowledging that the bad-acting person MIGHT be acting like himself, and then again he might have actual good intentions under it all. I don't make a judgment, but wait for more info to come in to make a real case one way or the other.
    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
    ........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........


    "Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
    by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
    attitude acceptable to today's standards."
    - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"

    .
    .
    .


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    I'm skeptical of most everyone from the start. Some say this causes its own problem, but I would rather create a self-fulfilling prophecy which drives away ten potential allies than fall victim to one crafty enemy. Why lower my guard? People are trustworthy only so far as you can trust that they are self-serving. I'm not convinced this is a quadra value, however.

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    i personally have a lot of trust issues, but their causes are rather complicated and there is more than one cause. and there are so many ways in which to trust or distrust someone. for instance, perhaps you can trust a person with your life, but not with your feelings. for me i think i am gauging trustworthiness by whether i see someone as a danger to me in some way--which means that the extent to which i trust and can be *myself* will bleed into this (issues of my identity concern me greatly and there's a lot of weakness there). i consider myself insecure and weak in many ways, ashamed, which is one aspect of why i prefer to just avoid other people. and if i could, i would spend almost all my time alone (not only for that reason--in general i prefer to be left alone to my thoughts and tend not to feel very safe when i'm not alone).

    one level of my trust issues is that i have a deep sense of alienation from the rest of humanity. i don't feel able to connect with most people, and despite having a family, the closest i came to a more intimate (soul-level) connection was in a romantic relationship, which i really did not want to let go of for that reason. i crave deep and intimate connection with one other person, but have not been able to actually get to that, because in a lot of ways i'm socially undesirable and i just usually feel i could never be enough. my deep sense of inadequacy also feeds my desire to be alone.

    in general a lot of my experiences with other people have been bad. and i suppose i see people as usually only in it for themselves, and perhaps the ones i dislike the most are those who are only in it for themselves (as proven by their actions) but seem to think that they are "good" rather than acting along a socially acceptable default. just because it is socially acceptable does not make it good--even if the norms being followed have a higher goodness in them. i will judge people by varying standards that are personally meaningful to me, and which i could be in error in some of them (i have grudges that circle around wounds). one of the things i get uptight about is self-sufficiency. when someone expects me to do little inconvenient things for them > figuring out how to not burden others, i don't care about their higher reasons: i judge them as untrustworthy and not worthy of my respect. i despise social hierarchy (and all hierarchies are social, make no mistake). with any of my thorns, my judgment can be quite ruthless. and as you see from that one, my standards regarding how to treat others are rather personal and particular. but i won't consider anyone worthy if they put their practical burdens on others: i will consider them pathetic and as furthering a servant culture of slavery. it may seem like a minor thing to some, but to me it's a "human rights" issue.

    although i feel like a slave and that i have to act as though i agree in order to survive, i am deeply opposed to most social conformity or group-think. people who seem to just go along with that and take the positive response they get from others in the group for doing so to mean they are good or right, disgust me. sadly though i will play along and pretend because i don't see a way where people are allowed to actually be individuals unless they have a better means of income that also allows them their humanity and independence. it makes me think of this poem.

    now that i've spoken of all my scorn, which is the part of me that greatly does not trust other people to do anything but try to use others for their own aims (especially if they are self-entitled shits)... i do have a compassionate side. it can come out as a superficial copy (faked), but it is faking something real underneath all of my more negative feelings towards others. mainly i see humanity or all life in a far more positive way, when you go deep enough. because i have suffered so much, i tend to feel deeply for the suffering of others. i feel at my most real i suppose when i am in pain because that's also where i contact love. all of the games humans play above that level are false representations of what humans (beings in general) really are. this is one of the reason i find animals interesting--because a lot of them have less scum covering the surface. beneath it all, once their worldly needs are met, they are in a way loving. it's not an effect, but a cause. the reason for existing in general is that feeling of love or connection, which all beings return to or seek. there is a deeper nature to humanity beneath all of its bullshit, though this only kind of makes me hate the bullshit even more. it makes me question why are we wasting our time with this shit?

    i guess going back to my more hateful thoughts, i've watched a lot of programs about animals, and monkeys are particularly interesting because of how petty their actions always are as they one-up one another and fight for their positions in the social hierarchy. they cannot help it, but humans can. so when i see humans doing the same thing, i just see them as small minded. although being bothered by it as i am, is also small minded.

    when it comes to evaluating individuals, i generally get a sense of who they are in essence and i keep trying to pinpoint it as precisely as i can. once i have it, i know in what ways i can trust them or not. with some people i become very confused and end up needing more information. there have been times i've also been wrong. but largely, i trust myself in this, though i err on the side of not trusting people usually.

    regarding intentions, i care about what the intentions are. it's one of the things i will dig into, searching. but aside from intentions, are actions. i have experienced the divergence between intention and action in myself and i know it will diverge in others. sometimes actions show a definite predictable pattern, and i generally agree that actions speak louder than words.

    i feel like i haven't really gone into my softer side enough. because i really do have two contradictory sides to this and they are both me. i don't seem them as in conflict either.

    eta: i just thought of what is missing. it's redemption. i believe strongly in redemption and it is always available to all people if they will go deep enough inside themselves and do the work.
    Last edited by marooned; 11-06-2016 at 05:19 PM.

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