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Thread: The pathetic hidden agenda

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    Thank you for starting this thread! It was on my mind for some time but now someone has actually said it ))

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    I feel exposed by the OP. But congruently... I won't change the way I am hehe


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    Quote Originally Posted by troubadour View Post
    i know Expat is long gone, but i don't think this is necessarily how i'd define HA. i experience it as a fussy and nitpicking attitude when it comes to physical stimuli and the environment, and inconsistency when it comes to health; kind of a "yeah, my diet is bad, but at least i don't eat gluten!" attitude.

    HA takes great pains to ensure maximum physical comfort; the slightest discomfort—a tag chafing their skin, or an uncomfortably tight piece of jewelry, for example—is overwhelming. they won't be able to relax until that one thing is taken care of. HA also loves their creature comforts. a HA might have a checklist of things they need to do before they can rest—for me, it's my skincare routine (exfoliate, cleanse, moisturize, tone), showering, using lotion, brushing my hair, turning off all electronics, making my bed and cleaning my bedroom... i cannot go to bed on a whim, i must do all those things first. i literally cannot fall asleep unless i do all of them, i'll just lie in bed feeling anxious and worrying to myself.

    HA might also have an addictive personality and become ensnared in excessive indulgences; goes doubly if E4. (Dostoyevsky, anyone?) they slavishly, irrationally follow whatever makes them feel comfortable. they do not like trying new things for the fear of being unsatisfied. one of the ways this may manifest in everyday life is a reluctance to try anything other than what they know they like at a restaurant.

    i think HA it makes one look pedantic and anal more than a boastful pussyfoot. i know i suck with trivial somatic matters and i'm not going to pretend i can deal with them effectively; there is an "overcompensating" element to any HA.
    Yeeees! This is exactly what I have been looking for. You are describing Si- (not Si+), which is EII's HA. LII's HA is not like this at all.

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    This post shows that IEI's HA is Ti+.

    http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...NFps-and-ISFps

    "All INFps.

    My point: I highly doubt that any ISFp would do exactly what you're describing, but something a little different, rather. My weakness is more applying rigid logical laws about how I know things are Meant To Be to reality first (like saying "Oh, water coming out of a kettle can't be 100 degrees! It would be a gas if it were that, so it has to be cooler") before checking out that what I think makes sense actually holds true in reality.

    (I also retract my evaluation that I've outgrown this habit. Not at all, I've just acquired more exposure to reality through the years )

    Basically, the N/S dichotomy paired up with Ti HA is important. I apply the Ti I acquire* to the world around me, from things as concrete as physical systems, to things as abstract as human relationships."

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    LII's HA is Si+.

    http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...Agenda-of-INTj

    "The LII is acutely aware of social conventions, such as saying "please" and "thank you", and expends much effort to conform to these rules to maintain the status of a "polite" person. But he tends to overdo the conventions themselves, as opposed to the relationships they are supposed to establish, and so ends up stepping on other people's toes (violating some less easily definable convention which he would never really want to conform to anyways). He prefers an easy-going environment where such conventions don't exist in the first place. When in a heated argument, an LII can alienate others by his natural tendency to hold and defend strong opinions (Ti)."

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    LIE's HA is Se+.

    http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...Es-ENTjs/page2

    "The more Se I've developed, the more it has removed the stick from my ass and allowed me to be more spontaneous, lively and dynamic.

    A good example from my LIE perspective- I was always one of those people that is already plotting out my path to the bathroom, kitchen then trashcan (and then grabbing a dirty dish off my desk to increase efficiency) before I even get out of my chair.

    Developing Se for me was to learn how to spend more time living in the moment, losing fear of expressing of random thoughts and behaviors, being more aggressive in some ways, smelling the roses vs. running by, and finally letting things happen vs. always planning, plotting and trying to stay one step ahead. It's basically learning to be a little less inhibited overall."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Petter View Post
    LII's HA is Si+.

    http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...Agenda-of-INTj

    "The LII is acutely aware of social conventions, such as saying "please" and "thank you", and expends much effort to conform to these rules to maintain the status of a "polite" person. But he tends to overdo the conventions themselves, as opposed to the relationships they are supposed to establish, and so ends up stepping on other people's toes (violating some less easily definable convention which he would never really want to conform to anyways). He prefers an easy-going environment where such conventions don't exist in the first place. When in a heated argument, an LII can alienate others by his natural tendency to hold and defend strong opinions (Ti)."
    This is describing role Fi not Si+.
    LII-Ne with strong EII tendencies, 6w7-9w1-3w4 so/sp/sx, INxP



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    Well, I think HA manifestation might be quite flexible and depends on circumstances in life. I remember one EII who had health issues (maybe put too much emphasis on it. Do not ask my advice...) and ended up in a profession what was safe (but also highly compatible with her base + creative). She was also very careful about her nutrition. It was quite clear overall.

    HA just happens without clear conscious control.

    Like I tend to crush people's feelings for humour or something... I just say something what particular person finds important. Not everyone can take it well.

    Introverted HA is quite much more abstract in its manifestation. Extroverted HA – it just happens.
    Last edited by The Reality Denialist; 11-12-2016 at 07:09 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by chips and underwear View Post
    This is describing role Fi not Si+.
    Are you saying that your intention was to describe Fi, or that you think this description corresponds to Fi (or both)?

    "social conventions, such as saying "please" and "thank you", and expends much effort to conform to these rules to maintain the status of a "polite" person."

    This is a typical behavior of SEI and ESE... so mainly Si+ and Fe-.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chips and underwear View Post
    ...
    "The LII also is very sensitive about how other people see him, feeling depressed if he has affections that are not returned. For this reason, he tends to avoid expressing signals that show interest in certain people (as opposed to signals about his general mood and demeanor, which he feels to be much more natural), but of course it just aggravates his loneliness, instead of relieving it."


    This is LII's Fi-.

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    HA is the part of you that cries when it gets slapped in the face and then is too ashamed to look the perp in the eye

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    Quote Originally Posted by Starfall View Post
    For sure. My old forum posts that make me cringe mostly have something to do with my HA.

    I know a lot of people cringe at old forum posts. I'm wondering if it is often hidden agenda related for most others as well?
    Lol. I haven't been here for very long, but yes for things I've said in the past too.

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    the extroverted HAs are incredibly easy for me to spot, besides Te. I'm rarely able to identify introverted HAs though. help?

    Se HA is in your face. someone will ask me a question and, I shit you not, my LIE friend will interject mid-question with a humblebrag. it shows in my EIE friends as well when they drop lines like, "my best friend's cousin's plumber's mailman once went to school with a girl whose grandma's neighbor's third grade English teacher went to school with Richard Feynman's gardener so, like, I'm kind of a big deal.." Fe HA is less noticeable but eventually you see it. just wait until they find themselves in a conflict with another person or group. Ne HA is cringe-fest, literally "omg I'm soOo RANDOM! "

    I DON'T UNDERSTAND THOUGH? I relate to so much of this. I had a girl in high school hit me with, "Nobody even likes you!" out of the blue, and I completely deflated. I got really quiet and didn't say anything for the rest of the class. that's a lie. I called her a cunt, then I got really quiet. @Vespertine's post is also freakishly relatable. I vaguely relate to Ni HA as well, but I'm usually right? not always, but I'm in the ballpark, at least. I wouldn't say it's particularly difficult to predict how people will react because we're creatures of habit, after all, nor how situations will pan out because history repeats itself. if I'm wrong then I will usually panic internally before laughing at myself. I also have a tendency of wanting to befriend cool, attractive, or powerful people for autonomy or novelty's sake. Autonomy in the sense that I have more freedom if I know people in positions of power, not that I necessarily care for power myself. I'm also passionate and bull-headed in debates, good luck getting me to concede.

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    @Starfall haha I kid you not, every straight EIE male I've known has made a point of befriending and surrounding themselves with attractive females to feed their ego and up their perceived desirability. with my LIE friend, there's a strong reliance on materialistic accomplishments, quite literally money, success, and attractiveness, to showcase their worth to others. there's a more self-made quality to it. also I agree, Fe HA can be quite endearing at times. it's a childlike arrogance, humorous but harmless, although occasionally my SLE friend will experience a moment of clarity where he'll admit that he knows (well, speculates) that not many people like him and it kinda breaks my heart. Jenna Marbles is another good example!


    on a sidenote, I think I finally noticed Si HA in my EII friend and LII brother? correct me if I've understood it wrong, but my EII friend becomes noticeably distressed when his friends are experiencing health problems, so much so that we have to avoid speaking to him about it or else his own emotional well-being will decline, whereas my LII brother will put a tremendous amount of effort into taking care of his physical health, he has a daily regimen he strictly adheres to. he's also spent several years perfecting the aesthetics of his room, it has less of a "let me take care of you" quality.

    it's still hard to pick out though, as I'm not sure if the behaviors I'm noticing are HA-related or general behaviors any type could display.

    could an EII's Si HA, when negatively skewed, result in deep-seeded insecurities concerning their physical appearance? since Delta's employ -Si, the minimization of discomfort and I'm assuming unappealing aesthetics, because I've known several EIIs with serious self-esteem issues in this area. everyone can feel insecure about their appearance but it's less wavering in EIIs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Petter View Post
    This post shows that IEI's HA is Ti+.

    http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...NFps-and-ISFps

    "All INFps.

    My point: I highly doubt that any ISFp would do exactly what you're describing, but something a little different, rather. My weakness is more applying rigid logical laws about how I know things are Meant To Be to reality first (like saying "Oh, water coming out of a kettle can't be 100 degrees! It would be a gas if it were that, so it has to be cooler") before checking out that what I think makes sense actually holds true in reality.

    (I also retract my evaluation that I've outgrown this habit. Not at all, I've just acquired more exposure to reality through the years )

    Basically, the N/S dichotomy paired up with Ti HA is important. I apply the Ti I acquire* to the world around me, from things as concrete as physical systems, to things as abstract as human relationships."
    It is interesting to see complex rigidity in the world. Sometimes underlining principles gives you a lot of freedom while you are bounded IRL sometimes it is other way around. Depends on your level of zoom. What IEI typically think about statistics? Because the scientific principles in practice are tested through statistical analysis: value ± error.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starfall View Post
    For sure. My old forum posts that make me cringe mostly have something to do with my HA.

    I know a lot of people cringe at old forum posts. I'm wondering if it is often hidden agenda related for most others as well?
    idk. I sometimes will be reading an old post and think, "this post is great, explains things so well" and then I realize I wrote it. Other times, I'll read one of my posts and completely understand why nobody knew what I was talking about because I left out half the information that would make it understandable, and I'll wonder what I was thinking at the time to try to fill in the gaps. I occasionally disagree with my old self. When it comes to my more personal and revealing emotional posts, I probably should feel embarrassed, but I mostly find the posts interesting, because I often don't feel quite the same as I did then, and it's interesting to watch the emotional growth and change over time. I guess, overall, I read my old posts as though someone else wrote them.

    I read old journals the same way. You can see how much you've changed over time reading old journals, but the things that still hit home and affect me on an emotional level are usually things I'm still struggling with, and I see repeats of the same themes over the years. Some of those loops I'd really like to climb out of, and the ones I've seen that I've moved past, it's actually really satisfying to see how things that once caused me so much turmoil no longer do. So, the pain I felt at the time is now a marker of growth and change.

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    I don't even like reading posts made a week ago. They're not HA related, but I just don't like my own posts.

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    The most obvious part of my HA is that I am a total clean freak. My LIE friend has accused me of getting off to the smell of disinfectant.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Syynth View Post
    The most obvious part of my HA is that I am a total clean freak. My LIE friend has accused me of getting off to the smell of disinfectant.
    Wow! That's handy HA! I'd like to have some of it,
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    Quote Originally Posted by unsuccessfull Alphamale View Post
    Wow! That's handy HA! I'd like to have some of it,
    It's great until you live with animals who don't know how to clean up after themselves.

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    Edward Snowden is great study case for HA in LIIs.

    He got it all down: family, highly respectable job, nice place to be in. Job was about maintenance yet he plunged deep into technicalities and ideology. We all know the end result. He is ego.
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    what is it when I hate how people use the symbols instead of just saying "Si Se Ti Te" etc, because I can never keep them straight and feel like its essentially unethical because of the unnecessary confusion I feel it must create in others [1] as well as myself

    [1] not everyone, of course, before the proofreaders come in

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bertrand View Post
    what is it when I hate how people use the symbols instead of just saying "Si Se Ti Te" etc, because I can never keep them straight and feel like its essentially unethical because of the unnecessary confusion I feel it must create in others [1] as well as myself

    [1] not everyone, of course, before the proofreaders come in
    Let's see if I got this right: So, it's a matter of getting used to them, people who are new might get confused. Come on, just 8 symbols to learn by heart We aleady established useful imagery like Se/ is the stop sign and /Ne is the dorito. If you want to use the symbols quickly when posting put ":" ... ":" around the Fe, Fi, and so on, it's fast to type and you get familiar.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bertrand View Post
    what is it when I hate how people use the symbols instead of just saying "Si Se Ti Te" etc, because I can never keep them straight and feel like its essentially unethical because of the unnecessary confusion I feel it must create in others [1] as well as myself

    [1] not everyone, of course, before the proofreaders come in
    if you hover your mouse over the symbols it shows what the IE symbol stands for.

    btw: your ridiculously long rambly posts wasting peoples time to read them and try to sift through the convoluted logic are borderline unethical. you are also creating multiple new threads trying to address issues when they are all just related to trying to figure out your own type and could just be condensed into one single type me thread. next you say you don't want any help or attention from beta STs when actually it's only realistically beta STs who will be able to sift through your BS and give you actual concrete assistance rather than warm fuzzy coddling. your issues that you're having towards typing yourself are kind of stereotypical noob/ignorance issues though, and in a way it's good you're bringing attention to yourself like this because these are pretty common issues that a lot of people struggle with.

    although btw, i actually agree with you on this symbols point. i find the spelled out versions easier to read through personally too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by niffer View Post
    if you hover your mouse over the symbols it shows what the IE symbol stands for.
    God, this just made my life so much easier, thank you! I take it all back about the symbols thing

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bertrand View Post
    what is it when I hate how people use the symbols instead of just saying "Si Se Ti Te" etc, because I can never keep them straight and feel like its essentially unethical because of the unnecessary confusion I feel it must create in others [1] as well as myself

    [1] not everyone, of course, before the proofreaders come in
    I think my first signature was something like, "I don't speak ". I hovered, memorized them, then removed it. I found it frustrating in the beginning.

    “My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.”​ —C.G. Jung
     
    YWIMW

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    Quote Originally Posted by niffer View Post
    although btw, i actually agree with you on this symbols point. i find the spelled out versions easier to read through personally too.
    Oh! I think I thought it made things more clearer to use the symbols - it broke up the paragraph, and if you're talking about and you keep showing then it becomes clear that a paragraph is about .

    Now I'm talking about and it's so clear I'm talking about cos look at all the black symbols.

    Also, cute capybara in your display photo!
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    Quote Originally Posted by ClownsandEntropy View Post
    Oh! I think I thought it made things more clearer to use the symbols - it broke up the paragraph, and if you're talking about and you keep showing then it becomes clear that a paragraph is about .

    Now I'm talking about and it's so clear I'm talking about cos look at all the black symbols.

    Also, cute capybara in your display photo!
    yeah but you gotta know what those symbols mean in the first place!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bertrand View Post
    yeah but you gotta know what those symbols mean in the first place!
    Do you find the letters easier to remember what they mean then the symbols?
    Warm Regards,



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    I have recently experienced LII's pathetic HA. It looks like a ridiculous SEI ego (Si+, Fe-), i.e. exaggerated social niceties.
    Last edited by Petter; 04-10-2017 at 09:21 AM.

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    Any more descriptions/examples of Ni HA?

    Everyone gossips but xEEs seem to have a distinct reputation for it

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    Why can't people see themselves objectively, especially those who know socionics?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gargamel View Post
    Why can't people see themselves objectively, especially those who know socionics?
    A lot of times it's because they don't want to. They become attached to an idea of themselves and that idea protects their ego. Other times it's more just a matter of "you don't know what you don't know" and you're just not aware of some things, so not aware that you're not aware of them. And sometimes the Dunning-Kruger effect takes hold and people think they're much better at things they're actually weak at, and assume everyone else is just as good at their strengths.

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    I feel like niffer is right when she says HA hits are not being able to look people in the eye over stuff

    I feel like Te HA is knowing you could have done better but didn't. Te HA are very much "you must try your best types" principle of self esteem, but not in the sense of "trying" makes it ok, but you must legitimately do a good job, which is the natural consequence of working at your utmost at something (SEE and IEE), so its one of those concepts that are understood to be nested in the whole personality. "trying your best" means something different to other types, but Te HA is a specific version of that, but one that is very important to them

    I feel like this is closely related to Fi HA which is just the ethical version of the same thing. Te HA wants to do high quality work, but is hit or miss in a way Te egos are consistently good at. Fi HA wants to be ethical in the same way Fi egos tend to be, but won't devote themselves to it fully, nevertheless when mistakes get made or they otherwise fail to live up to their own standard their self esteem suffers. In a lot of ways Fi HA is just trying your best "at relationships", but in a private sense, its the knowledge that you did or did not give it your best, and when you let yourself down you know it and that's when you can't look people in the eye.. this is why they tend to want to love more than be loved (although obviously both is best), because it implies at the very least they tried their best

    in other words, trying your best to Fi is to love without guarantee of result, trying your best to Te is to guarantee the result, lack of which implicates sufficient effort. you can see how they're two sides of the same coin, but also slight idealizations and reductions of the concept. to love and not be loved may be sublime, even true, but it is not complete it is reduced, it makes the winning condition out of something less than a wholeness. same thing with Te, to be result oriented in such a way is almost tautological in its normative rendition of what it means to "get what you want" but also simplistic because it fails to account for how there is value in half-solutions sometimes.. in other words to break the whole down and still appreciate the thing for the value it does have

    in a lot of ways because your 2d functions are calibrated to social adaptation it seems to me they're the source of a lot of issues in a way 1d functions aren't. while 1d functions may catastrophically fail you, or bring on painful consequences, or at least painful perceptions (embarrassment), they're also flexible in a way 2d functions aren't. in other words, I don't have both 3d+ fi and te, but I can see how the above can be true in a way that while any type could acknowledge including the aforementioned, they would nevertheless default to those normative 2d standards in the moment. they would react, even if they had abstract self awareness of why that was the case. maybe later they could console themselves and recover their self esteem, which we all do, but they would still see it as something that requires the self-talk to begin with. in that sense 2d functions are said to influence self esteem and that's something hard to control. whereas 3d+ functions its like whatever, you see the way out, the way around, why its not a big deal, or not the problem people make it out to be. 1d functions its like yeah that sucked, but the failure is perceived more in retrospect, the consequences aren't even fully known to you, sometimes they're never fully appreciated (that is what polr is--the thing that somewhat always undermines you without you knowing, etc).. but being a dimension of experience, you can "learn" ways to deal with 1d functions "untainted" by societal expectations, which is probably why "mentoring" and duality are so huge, because they provide exactly that. in some ways 1d functions, while less sophisticated, can learn to "lifehack" in a way 2d can't... 2d must come by things honestly, that's how it views itself, 1d is ok with a degree of imperfection, and that allows it flexibility [1]

    people rationalize failures on their 2d functions the most, whereas the other ones its like they don't even see (1d), or are so confident they don't feel the need to

    so you can detect HA in the sense of what people tend to be defensive or sensitive to, but not sensitive in the way suggestive is sensitive which is more like "receptive", and polr which is mainly oblivious and then in surprising amount of pain, if it is forced to be made aware and contend in that area

    I don't really think of it as pathetic though, I think the most pathetic functions are actually immature expressions of confident functions because they're so intractable in their obvious defects. the introverted functions have a tendency to become solipsistic and bizarre, whereas the extroverted functions become gross and intrusive, and the way you bring them in line is actually via their weaker functions, sometimes their polr, because its the only way to "reach" the whole person. battling someone on their strong points requires that they "let you in" which is not a battle, but a collaboration. thus when people are overconfident they invite attacks on their weak points because its the only way to stop them. its why conflict is in some sense necessary because people are prideful.. so its like "why do we have weaknesses..? why do people attack other's weaknesses..?" well because otherwise our strengths would run amok and we're not perfect

    this is why ESI placing their "low blow" is not so low but the work that is absolutely necessary to eradicate evil. and this goes for every function and its equivalent

    [1] 1d functions are "ok" with a degree of real imperfection; 4d functions aren't, but 3d+ allows for perceived imperfection "the exception"-- 4d function knows how to apply the exception in time which is what fully transcends appearance--the time factor. its the real imperfection of the 1d functions that allow for the true supremacy of the 4d. 2d functions don't participate in any of these dynamics, which is both a strength and a weakness, but it also lends it its social character and thus the basis for self esteem

    whenever 4d Fe is perceived as fake it is an illusion, its actually the most real, i.e. real in time




    its why "low blow" is likewise a matter of perspective, it is in some sense the "dirty work" that saves us all, and in that sense is exalted for the reason that it does the work no one else wants to do but that is necessary in order to save everyone who in turn will not appreciate it--it does what's necessary in time regardless of appearance, at the expense of appearance and is fulfilled in doing so

    Fi knows these things which is how they can love the "low blow" because the "lowness" depends on the person evaluating it and an insult from an ignorant person can be the highest compliment and this dynamic applies to almost everything. this dynamic scares Fi polr when they catch glimpses of it because it hints at something enormous under the surface they don't know

    to transcend appearance and find fulfillment in time I think is the ultimate mission of every ego, regardless of S/I preference because its the work only their 4d functions can provide for society. I know a SLI who is retired from his first job who acts as a custodian for my apartment complex... he's into his later years, by all acounts a low social position but he is truly happy and he is truly doing the work that transcends appearance. he gets here super early and I never see him not doing something useful. he's probably 90% responsible for this place not falling apart. he might be the wisest person here. he is not stupid. if people only knew they would envy him




    the more I think about it the more I think 2d functions are just the functions strangled by society
    Last edited by Bertrand; 10-26-2017 at 03:21 AM.

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    alright now I'm curious because I've seen low blows come from all different types, what exactly defines the ESI "low blow"?

    because I imagine that any critique directed toward one's vulnerable functions, whether intentional or not, could be perceived as a low bow

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    its hard to describe, basically they know how to locate someone's most vulnerable spot and hit it all the while totally sure it was the right thing to do, but almost everyone else sees it as absolutely vicious and off limits for that reason alone. a lot of times it can be in the form of an absolutely devastating passing remark

    they're also not above the physical manifestation of this in extreme circumstances




    2d Nx: strangles person's ability to use imagination in directing own life
    2d Tx: strangles person's ability to enjoy employing logic
    2d Fx: strangles persons ability to express themselves as an individual
    2d Sx: strangles persons ability to present themselves or act out
    Last edited by Bertrand; 10-26-2017 at 09:31 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bertrand View Post
    to transcend appearance and find fulfillment in time I think is the ultimate mission of every ego, regardless of S/I preference because its the work only their 4d functions can provide for society. I know a SLI who is retired from his first job who acts as a custodian for my apartment complex... he's into his later years, by all acounts a low social position but he is truly happy and he is truly doing the work that transcends appearance. he gets here super early and I never see him not doing something useful. he's probably 90% responsible for this place not falling apart. he might be the wisest person here. he is not stupid. if people only knew they would envy him
    it reminds me a LOT of humans of new york for some reason

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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat View Post
    The focus on one's hidden agenda is also manifested in a "patting yourself on the back" way, when you are reassuring others that you are actually good in doing something, but it's painfully obvious to others that you are above all reassuring yourself and not doing a good job at it - and by doing that, you end up behaving in a pathetic way.

    So:

    : behavior aimed at showing how popular and liked by the crowd you are, but that is actually making you look like an ass.

    : unshakeable and stubborn defense of ideas and beliefs against all opposition, with unwillingness to even discuss the possibility of their not being correct

    unshakeable and stubborn unwillingness to compromise on personal behavior and principles against all opposition in a social situation

    : behavior aimed at showing how competent you are in handling practical and financial affairs, or in how much knowledge in a particular subject you have, but painfully focusing on non-essentials to the point made

    : unshakeable belief that you know exactly what is going to happen in your life in a given situation, or precipitated action since you know that "now is the time to act", but ending up shooting your own foot in both cases

    : behavior aimed at showing how successful, rich, or physically strong and brave and confrontational you are, when others can see you're none of them

    : showing off how wiser you are than others in taking care of your health by good food and avoiding personal risks, but making you look like a paranoid pussy-wimp. Also, an essentially unphysical person trying to show off how they master daily details in administration, maintainance, housekeeping, etc

    : behavior aiming at showing how original and creative you can be, but making too much out of obvious and trivial ideas.

    So if you see someone behaving in a pathetic way, just remember -- on other occasions, it's you doing it.
    The parts i've bolded seem essentially the same to me. I wonder if anyone else noticed this?

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    well sometimes they go together, but a better way to separate them out so as to see them more clearly is to think of someone with strong Te and weak Si or vice versa. I have a LII friend, he's totally fine with practical and financial affairs in the sense he's got his budget more or less functional and equilibrated (not saying he does a ton of paperwork, but hes got it straight in his head... if his car breaks down he knows what to do, he knows where stuff is and how its arranged and generally a solid grasp on how stuff works), but when it comes to actually doing the stuff, he's sort of awkward, makes a big deal about things I consider trivial, has good theoretical knowledge of practical stuff and can execute, but over estimates the importance of specific details in a way that is not bad or counterproductive but just kind of amusing that he gets such a kick out of it. sort of like over emphasis on how signficant this or that physical factor is, and while its not totally irrelevant, the attention he pays to it is slightly out of whack, like hes thought too hard about it. the kind of person that would draw attention to how they handled daily task x or health issue y but that overdid it in a way that betrays the fact they're actually not as on top of that area as they'd like to be seen. for example he goes to the doctor for every little thing. this is not a bad idea in theory but its like if you bump your arm its not that big a deal. its not so out of whack that he ignores it or goes totally nuts, its like low level constant attention that is slightly oversensitive

    the SEI version of this is like being able to know all about physical states and what is what, but not really availing yourself to the technology and methods because you don't fully understand it or know whats out there. so like the perception is generally accurate, but the organization and planning is weak. generally has a better sense of what is major/minor in terms of Si, but has a weak idea of all the ways in which it could be handled. LII has a strong catalogue of possibilities and knowledge to draw on, but doesn't fully see the initial issue in all its clarity. you can see how they kind of go together, one can tell the other x or y is no big deal and the other can correct them on how best to handle it if its determined to be a big deal, the issue with activity is its almost too much because its so direct. duals handle these sort of things in a similar fashion but more automatically and subtly in a way that is smooth and doesn't call attention to the others weakness directly, so even though the help is appreciated in activity it can be kind of "harsh" on the 3rd function, because the difference between mirrors is the other does what the one talks about, so you get a lot of talk on the 3rd function which can be painful or embarrassing, whereas the dual just does it

    I also think this goes to the EII/IEE thing you've been thinking about lately. a lot of people expect IEE to like I dunno not talk about "EII stuff" but in fact my experience is IEEs talk about it more in many ways

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    One example EII: tries to take care of it all. Health starts to deteriorate, lots of visits to a doctor. The main reason for pretty much everything seems to be a stress. An EII tried to teach me how to iron. (I just couldn't wrap my head around over the thing because it seemed pretty much something you could experimentally learn... if you needed... just some testing and...)
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