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Thread: Gulenko's typings of forum members AKA Big G SquaD

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    Quote Originally Posted by godslave View Post
    I was wondering the same thing. Personally, I don't think that there is a fixed sequential order or predictable pattern . I think the only way that would be totally predictable is within a computer simulation or in a fictional writing where we have an absolute control over all the events that could influence a character in his "lifetime". Although our life choices can engage us in a certain path with a predictable course, we can not predict the collateral events that could happen along the way and which can have a significant impact on our psyche. Anyway, that's an interesting question
    If there is a life changing event or a shock factor that leads to this transition, we cannot predict what is gonna happen. I just find it odd that two people who were in transition were going from C to N, if anybody knows any other reported transition, I am all ears.

    I think there can be general pattern, like we have clock of socion theory, it doesnt have to go like that precisely in life, anything could happen but it is there. So I am wondering if there is some kind of an order like D->C->N->H->D, that would make sense to me in terms of transition due to supervision flow.

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    Quote Originally Posted by myresearch View Post
    @Varlawend as far as G reports go, I only know two people going from DCNH transition, they were going from C to N, so do you know if there is a general order to this DCNH transition if there is no shock factor? or people can be in a transition to anything with equal chance like C to N, C to D, C to H transitions have equal probability of happening?
    Good question; there is no general order for DCNH transition. It will depend on the particular priority order of the subtypes within a person. We each have all 4 of the subtypes, but in a different priority order. If someone has a CDNH subtype, then it will be much easier for them to transition into a Dominant subtype than someone with a CNHD subtype (who is unlikely to ever have a dominant subtype). Changing our main subtype isn't easy or something done on a whim in any case; it requires both a large amount of internal motivation (desire to change) combined with the ability to realize the new subtype in a real needed role in the world. So it rarely happens IME, but there are some cases I've seen.

    Some subtype switches might be more common because of the values of society and/or age factors. A transition from C to N is probably the most common subtype shift, because the values of society typically prefer conformal, normalizing people well adapted to certain "adult" duties and responsibilities that are seen as a given. Normalizing people typically have more stable marriages and family life as well, so the Normalizing subtype will often have to grow in a person to make such a life work for them. Creative people are more disagreeable, not as interested in peace or stability, and more easily bored, but this can put them at a distance from "getting along" in normal ways or even ways that are useful to them. So unless a person is "up for" or truly desires that kind of life, they may compromise by developing some Normalization as they age or "settle down".

    There are other examples of subtype shifts though, just not as much of a general "trope": Carl Jung was probably a Normalizing Inspector in his childhood (NH subtype), but transitioned to a Harmonizing subtype (HN) during a personal crisis of his when he wrote his famous visionary Red Book and had a split with Freud and became more openly interested in the philosophical and mystical. Jeff Bezos was likely a more distant Critic in his younger years, being more of a scholarly inclined person, but in developing Amazon he acquired a Dominant subtype, since this subtype is more suitable for very competitive business success and running a business hard as a centralized authority figure.

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    I've observed several subtype changes in my life. An example would be an EII-C friend with whom I did a lot in my early twenties. We travelled to japan together etc. He started to work as a train driver and within a year, three people jumped in front of a train he was driving and killed themselves. He got psychiatric help and moved to the country side. I still remember visiting him after months and noticing that he wasn't the person I knew anymore, he became a distant subtype, and the friendship faded away. Another example is my normalizing mother who got into a car accident and became a harmonizing subtype, barely leaves the house anymore. Even without DCNH, the change in behaviour was so drastic that you would immediatly notice it, like they became a different person.

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    Quote Originally Posted by myresearch View Post
    @Varlawend as far as G reports go, I only know two people going from DCNH transition, they were going from C to N, so do you know if there is a general order to this DCNH transition if there is no shock factor? or people can be in a transition to anything with equal chance like C to N, C to D, C to H transitions have equal probability of happening?
    Quote Originally Posted by myresearch View Post
    If there is a life changing event or a shock factor that leads to this transition, we cannot predict what is gonna happen. I just find it odd that two people who were in transition were going from C to N, if anybody knows any other reported transition, I am all ears.

    I think there can be general pattern, like we have clock of socion theory, it doesnt have to go like that precisely in life, anything could happen but it is there. So I am wondering if there is some kind of an order like D->C->N->H->D, that would make sense to me in terms of transition due to supervision flow.
    Quote Originally Posted by Varlawend View Post
    Good question; there is no general order for DCNH transition. It will depend on the particular priority order of the subtypes within a person. We each have all 4 of the subtypes, but in a different priority order. If someone has a CDNH subtype, then it will be much easier for them to transition into a Dominant subtype than someone with a CNHD subtype (who is unlikely to ever have a dominant subtype). Changing our main subtype isn't easy or something done on a whim in any case; it requires both a large amount of internal motivation (desire to change) combined with the ability to realize the new subtype in a real needed role in the world. So it rarely happens IME, but there are some cases I've seen.

    Some subtype switches might be more common because of the values of society and/or age factors. A transition from C to N is probably the most common subtype shift, because the values of society typically prefer conformal, normalizing people well adapted to certain "adult" duties and responsibilities that are seen as a given. Normalizing people typically have more stable marriages and family life as well, so the Normalizing subtype will often have to grow in a person to make such a life work for them. Creative people are more disagreeable, not as interested in peace or stability, and more easily bored, but this can put them at a distance from "getting along" in normal ways or even ways that are useful to them. So unless a person is "up for" or truly desires that kind of life, they may compromise by developing some Normalization as they age or "settle down".

    There are other examples of subtype shifts though, just not as much of a general "trope": Carl Jung was probably a Normalizing Inspector in his childhood (NH subtype), but transitioned to a Harmonizing subtype (HN) during a personal crisis of his when he wrote his famous visionary Red Book and had a split with Freud and became more openly interested in the philosophical and mystical. Jeff Bezos was likely a more distant Critic in his younger years, being more of a scholarly inclined person, but in developing Amazon he acquired a Dominant subtype, since this subtype is more suitable for very competitive business success and running a business hard as a centralized authority figure.
    From the interview with Rune you can learn that he works on his mood swings, tries to
    keep it under control, strives to bring the things he starts to the end in order to
    objectively assess the results. This means that his personality development is going in
    the direction of normalizing subtype. In order for C to N transformation to take place,
    logic in his character must be supplemented with ethics, which primarily requires a good
    attitude of his relatives and friends.
    C and N are both ignoring types, so there's probably some ease in transition along this axis.

    At the time I was focused on a job, analyzing my emotions, bonding with family and coworkers, and trying to align my life with my emotions. Also focusing on what was "mine", which I read is a hallmark of N.

    Since then, I started taking medication for depression and OCD. I started to focus less on my emotions and more on my vision of life, so I think there was a pull toward H and even D because I was factoring in the efficiency of everything.

    Not sure what Gulenko would say about my type at this point, but looking back at old posts I'm confident that I'm less C and more N than I was in 2018. I think @Varlawend is right about the transition to more conformal attitudes and behaviors.
    Last edited by ILoveChinchillas; 06-09-2022 at 03:14 AM.

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    Being a creative type means that you are willing to go against societies expectations no matter what. Your parents want you to have children but you don't want them? Your boss and team at work expect you to work overtime because of a very important project? The general population expects that you follow specific norms that are important in your country? You are going to ignore or spit on all these expectations when you are a C-Sub. People are mad at you but you're just calmly saying "no" and ignore what they expect. That's what being a C-Sub means. You don't feel as a part of the society you are in. H-Subs feel the same way but adapt to the pressure instead of opposing it. D an N subs are the society that you are in. They build the infrastructure, they build the rules and norms. C-Sub at most endure these rules for a limited amount of time if they have to but as soon as they have enough resources to be independent they are going to do their own thing again.

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    Normalizing subtypes excel at fields where you have to know a lot of detailed information. An ethical type that works in a nursery or old folks home for example is going to know all the names of the people there, all their pecularities in behaviour, all the routines that are necessary to keep everything in order, a logical N-Sub is going to know guidelines inside and out, all technical details to keep things working etc. C-Subs only grasp what they see as the important parts and ignore everything else. C-Subs have a vague understanding of a hundred topics, but that's how you make discoveries sometimes. It really depends on the field you are in and what is valued

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alive View Post
    I would say the most common switch is a downgrade. When Creative subtypes get depressed and become N-subs, or N to H. I think an upgrade is much more unlikely
    I think the inherent level of satisfaction and yield of a DCNH subtype depend on how compatible the subtype is with the base Sociotype.

    For example, an ILI H can draw upon the base function to complement the tendencies of the Harmonizing subtype. In contrast, an ILI C draws upon 1D Se (a position of stress) and ignoring Ne (unvalued) to complement to tendencies of the Creative subtype. An ILI N can at least draw upon demo Ti (social mission) for good effect to complement the tendencies of the Normalizing subtype. Stephen Wolfram seems to be a good example of an ILI N doing good by his social mission:



    I also think that if we consider depression in Socionical terms, we're talking about how well an individual manifests his/her ego functions. Consequently, levels of "Socionical depression" still depend in part on how compatible the DCNH subtype is with the base Sociotype.
    Last edited by ILoveChinchillas; 06-09-2022 at 09:56 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alive View Post
    Normalizing subtypes excel at fields where you have to know a lot of detailed information. An ethical type that works in a nursery or old folks home for example is going to know all the names of the people there, all their pecularities in behaviour, all the routines that are necessary to keep everything in order, a logical N-Sub is going to know guidelines inside and out, all technical details to keep things working etc. C-Subs only grasp what they see as the important parts and ignore everything else. C-Subs have a vague understanding of a hundred topics, but that's how you make discoveries sometimes. It really depends on the field you are in and what is valued
    Valid. N subs focus is in depth. Consequently, they will have a more detailed storehouse of information to work with, but about fewer subjects. C sub is the opposite.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Iconoclast;[URL="tel:1519483"
    1519483[/URL]]I typed myself as an IEI for a while. Basically, I was between EIE or IEI. But, I identify very much with Dialectical-Algorithmic cognition, except that I still see myself more as an ethical type than a logical one. I have always been very influenced by emotions, which are often violent and dramatic. I am not thrifty, I spend my money irrationally, I am impulsive and impatient, etc. It's hard to see myself having 4D Te. I also think I fit the EIE image better than the ILI image. In Model G, the IEI image doesn't fit very well, although I identify with many characteristics of the type. There is an obvious contrast between my sister who is EII-C and me. I am much more outgoing and sociable than she is. Except, I am also a socially isolated guy, which for a moment I understood to be an accentuation on Ni. I think that a few minutes of an interview is not really enough to identify certain characteristics that present themselves intrinsically over a lifetime. Also, my spoken English is terrible. I was subject to a lot of anxiety (I tried to record the video at least about 50 times.) And some questions require a certain internal self-awareness that can be flawed, especially in extroverts. It is difficult to track your thinking unambiguously. I don't believe that the method itself is flawed, but it is not infallible. Mistakes can happen, and it is normal. An anamnesis, as done by psychiatrists or psychologists, would be very useful as an integral part of the method. A person's development over time must be taken into consideration. Anyway, I have my reasons to doubt, and I think it is right that people express any doubts related to the results. After all, human feedback is essential for the development of certain scientific methods. Especially when a science aims to define and explain the individual and the social interaction between different types of people.
    Apologies for the pointed question, but how did you come to identify with DA cognition? From what I know of the Cognitive Styles they’re pretty hard to identify with in general, so I’m surprised whenever I see someone feel certain about their own style.
    I don’t mean to be interrogative, I’m just wondering if you had your own method/way of finding it out, or if it was just a matter of knowing which ones you’re not.

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    For me, cognitive styles, read all of them.

    Which one makes you wish there was more information. Yours.

    Which one has more in it that you identify with. Me, it' s DA. CA is familiar. DA is absolutely me. HP and VS are mysterious.
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    As one of the many ones of me.
    As truth is gathered, I rearrange,
    Inside out, outside in, inside out, outside in,
    Perpetual change"


    Yes - The Yes Album - from "Perpetual Change" (written by Howe and Squire)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Varlawend View Post
    There are other examples of subtype shifts though, just not as much of a general "trope": Carl Jung was probably a Normalizing Inspector in his childhood (NH subtype), but transitioned to a Harmonizing subtype (HN) during a personal crisis of his when he wrote his famous visionary Red Book and had a split with Freud and became more openly interested in the philosophical and mystical.
    I don't argue against Jung becoming H, but it is important to remember that he had an intense individuation process, and visions and hallucinations in the Red Book should be understood as that. We are talking about a controlled psychosis were he had to be very focused on the task and avoid mistakes. Dealing with the visions and still maintaining focus on reality, his family, his work. I suspect that this goes beyond socioncs because in individuation the personality becomes more integrated and more complete, but I don't think that means that the subtype would change. But generally, I think a moderate N sub seems suited for such a task. But yes, Jung as an old man could very well have been H.

    Jung as an Inspector seems weird to me since his writings and his psychology are full of Ne, and as a fellow Alpha I find it relatively easy to read him.
    The decisive thing is not the reality of the object, but the reality of the subjective factor, i.e. the primordial images, which in their totality represent a psychic mirror-world. It is a mirror, however, with the peculiar capacity of representing the present contents of consciousness not in their known and customary form but in a certain sense sub specie aeternitatis, somewhat as a million-year old consciousness might see them.

    (Jung on Si)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallmo View Post
    I don't argue against Jung becoming H, but it is important to remember that he had an intense individuation process, and visions and hallucinations in the Red Book should be understood as that. We are talking about a controlled psychosis were he had to be very focused on the task and avoid mistakes. Dealing with the visions and still maintaining focus on reality, his family, his work. I suspect that this goes beyond socioncs because in individuation the personality becomes more integrated and more complete, but I don't think that means that the subtype would change. But generally, I think a moderate N sub seems suited for such a task. But yes, Jung as an old man could very well have been H.

    Jung as an Inspector seems weird to me since his writings and his psychology are full of Ne, and as a fellow Alpha I find it relatively easy to read him.
    I don't really have the feeling that a lot of people here understand what Ne really is. It certainly has nothing to do with visions or hallucinations, because that is Ni

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alive View Post
    I don't really have the feeling that a lot of people here understand what Ne really is. It certainly has nothing to do with visions or hallucinations, because that is Ni
    It's neither Ne or Ni. It's not related to socionics in this case. In a severe life crisis the unconscious comes alive, and any type can experience it. It's dangerous.
    The decisive thing is not the reality of the object, but the reality of the subjective factor, i.e. the primordial images, which in their totality represent a psychic mirror-world. It is a mirror, however, with the peculiar capacity of representing the present contents of consciousness not in their known and customary form but in a certain sense sub specie aeternitatis, somewhat as a million-year old consciousness might see them.

    (Jung on Si)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallmo View Post
    I don't argue against Jung becoming H, but it is important to remember that he had an intense individuation process, and visions and hallucinations in the Red Book should be understood as that. We are talking about a controlled psychosis were he had to be very focused on the task and avoid mistakes. Dealing with the visions and still maintaining focus on reality, his family, his work. I suspect that this goes beyond socioncs because in individuation the personality becomes more integrated and more complete, but I don't think that means that the subtype would change. But generally, I think a moderate N sub seems suited for such a task. But yes, Jung as an old man could very well have been H.

    Jung as an Inspector seems weird to me since his writings and his psychology are full of Ne, and as a fellow Alpha I find it relatively easy to read him.
    I appreciate your comments in clarification about Jung.

    Typology systems should be understood as partly axiomatic and conventional, and partly as referring to something factual and empirical. In terms of SHS Socionics (which is more the focus of this thread), visions and hallucinations would indeed relate much more to Ni than to Ne. At the same time, there may be different conventions in alternative Socionics systems which refer to different aspects of reality, and in those cases, Jung’s psychology may fall more under Alpha quadra (e.g. the Archetype Center types Jung as ILE on the basis of his semantics of speech). There is no contradiction here; this is why I spoke about relativity before, because this issue comes up repeatedly and it’s important to the concrete epistemology of typology. There is no need for essentialism about what Ne or Ni intrinsically “is” (Ne and Ni are really just words used to refer to phenomena which may have clearer and more essential natures beyond the words), or about what Jung’s type “is”.

    Jung best fits Inspector in the SHS system because of his Balanced-Stable temperament (confirmed by ocular-motor reactions), Beta quadra exoticism and aristocracy, managerial traits, and right-spinning detailing orientation. I also find Jung to be quite readable and he is someone I admire a lot. Jung's focus on “control” and “not making mistakes” relates to the SHS Structural Logic function, and his focus on mundane reality/work/family relates to the familiar Comfort Sensing function. It’s not surprising that Jung would think in such a way since it is exactly his Social Mission as an Inspector, but I’m curious why you or he would perceive it as a general necessity for having a visionary or mystical experience. I think that attitude may itself relate to the difficulty for Inspector of performing such an Ni-heavy role.

    In SHS, Jung had something called an Ni (T) accentuation. This relates to the intense visions he experienced. Accentuations, especially when severe or related to weaker functions (Inspector launcher T is an inflexible and low-dimensional function), can cause serious psychological disturbances and obsessions. Furthermore, a positivist psyche like that of Inspector can’t easily function in an ordinary way under the influence of such problems since it's more difficult for a wholesome positivist psyche to tolerate such internal contradictions (but it has other advantages). Since we are so focused on certain functions during accentuations, we can also become very unique and specialized in that area, especially if we are able to integrate the acquired skills and knowledge into our psyche and human society in a balanced way. A T accentuation can be balanced by a Harmonizing subtype (which involves functions T, R and S), which is one reason I think Jung transitioned from a Normalizing to a Harmonizing subtype at this time in his life. As discussed above, a subtype change is no small thing and leads to a significant change in the personality; it could easily relate to a person’s journey of individuation.

    I agree with you fully that Socionics doesn’t describe the entirety of an individuation process of a person. However, I do think it can describe some abstracted, systematic components of it, and some effects of it. In a crucial sense, Socionics deals with form rather than content. INDIVIDUAtion is naturally about the INDIVIDUAl, and Socionics as an abstract theory can’t possibly describe that completely, so I think these experiences RELATE to Socionics without being encapsulated by it (i.e. their content may be unusually profound and include phenomena Socionics can't entirely process or fit into its limited framework).

    “Clear and simple though the fundamental principle of the two opposing attitudes may be, nevertheless their concrete reality is complicated and obscure, for every individual is an exception to the rule. Therefore, one can never give a description of a type, no matter how complete, which applies to more than one individual despite the fact that thousands might, in a certain sense, be strikingly described thereby. Conformity is one side of a man, uniqueness is the other.”
    -C.G. Jung
    Last edited by Varlawend; 06-11-2022 at 02:48 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Varlawend View Post
    I appreciate your comments in clarification about Jung.

    Typology systems should be understood as partly axiomatic and conventional, and partly as referring to something factual and empirical. In terms of SHS Socionics (which is more the focus of this thread), visions and hallucinations would indeed relate much more to Ni than to Ne. At the same time, there may be different conventions in alternative Socionics systems which refer to different aspects of reality, and in those cases, Jung’s psychology may fall more under Alpha quadra (e.g. the Archetype Center types Jung as ILE on the basis of his semantics of speech). There is no contradiction here; this is why I spoke about relativity before, because this issue comes up repeatedly and it’s important to the concrete epistemology of typology. There is no need for essentialism about what Ne or Ni intrinsically “is” (Ne and Ni are really just words used to refer to phenomena which may have clearer and more essential natures beyond the words), or about what Jung’s type “is”.
    Thanks for the reply.

    I get what you're saying - and it's a very ILI view - but this sounds to me like too much philosophy. The types and functions are in my view essential, basically complexes or structures in the psyche, developed over millions of years. I think the data, the ITR etc show that the types are essential. It's also possible to give surprisingly accurate descriptions of a single function as a psychic phenomenon, as Jung does in Psychological types. However, In individuated people, the type can be blurred because weaker function have been developed. Then it's a matter of also knowing the development in order to type the person.

    Jung best fits Inspector in the SHS system because of his Balanced-Stable temperament (confirmed by ocular-motor reactions), Beta quadra exoticism and aristocracy, managerial traits, and right-spinning detailing orientation. I also find Jung to be quite readable and he is someone I admire a lot. Jung's focus on “control” and “not making mistakes” relates to the SHS Structural Logic function, and his focus on mundane reality/work/family relates to the familiar Comfort Sensing function. It’s not surprising that Jung would think in such a way since it is exactly his Social Mission as an Inspector, but I’m curious why you or he would perceive it as a general necessity for having a visionary or mystical experience. I think that attitude may itself relate to the difficulty for Inspector of performing such an Ni-heavy role.
    The stuff you mention here could very well be attributed to an LII also. It's not surprising at all that a Swiss psychiatrist in early 20:th century would be aristocratic. But you could also make the argument for Jung being democratic if you pick some different data from his life. And focus on mundane reality is hardly limited to Si. Si is just a very specific focus. He remained focus on mundane reality, just as any sane person, but he was of course mostly focused on the intellectual work.

    Jung said things like "life is aristocratic". Interesting, so does this mean that he is an "aristocratic" type. The way I see it life is really aristocratic and him saying this shouldn't be understood as some manifestation of Beta values, but of a deep understanding of human life.

    I've heard critical voices on how Jung talks about black people and "primitive" peoples. This can be seen as aristocratic /Beta. But western civilization has had a strong development since ancient times, maybe unique in the world. People are different. It's not a coincidence that Beethoven is from Europe and not Ghana. This is not a politically correct topic nowadays, though. And Jung is very understanding of non-western lifestyles, at least intellectually, and he knew personally and appreciated people from primitive societies, as you might know.

    but I’m curious why you or he would perceive it as a general necessity for having a visionary or mystical experience.
    I wasn't sure what you meant here. Although "visionary or mystical experience" is often related to Ni, I don't see it as necessary, and you can have people of almost any type who just happen to have an unusually strong connection to the unconscious.

    In SHS, Jung had something called an Ni (T) accentuation. This relates to the intense visions he experienced. Accentuations, especially when severe or related to weaker functions (Inspector launcher T is an inflexible and low-dimensional function), can cause serious psychological disturbances and obsessions. Furthermore, a positivist psyche like that of Inspector can’t easily function in an ordinary way under the influence of such problems since it's more difficult for a wholesome positivist psyche to tolerate such internal contradictions (but it has other advantages). Since we are so focused on certain functions during accentuations, we can also become very unique and specialized in that area, especially if we are able to integrate the acquired skills and knowledge into our psyche and human society in a balanced way. A T accentuation can be balanced by a Harmonizing subtype (which involves functions T, R and S), which is one reason I think Jung transitioned from a Normalizing to a Harmonizing subtype at this time in his life. As discussed above, a subtype change is no small thing and leads to a significant change in the personality; it could easily relate to a person’s journey of individuation.
    I don't see how this should be related to any functions at all. Do you need Ni in order to dream at night? Or to hallucinate during fever or when taking drugs? When the ego is hurt or when there is a strong build up in the unconscious it can break through. At that point you don't need intuition anymore, because Mickey Mouse is really sitting there talking to you.

    The problem I see is that the semantics of the functions are being expanded so that they can explain everything in life. "You need Si to be comfortable and Ni to have visions".

    I am skeptic of Ni accentuation in Jung, because a person who individuates has to deal with everything. The ego has to be in good shape and deal with shit on all sides. It's the life of the hero. You need all functions, and an individuated person gives an impression of wholeness and can (ideally) speak the language of all types. I also wonder about Ni accentuation in a therapeutic relation. Might sound surprising, but if you want to genuinely connect with another person you have to be able to really relate by being more like them, it's not just an intellectual thing. But I am no expert on accentuations, just throwing in some doubt.

    I agree with you fully that Socionics doesn’t describe the entirety of an individuation process of a person. However, I do think it can describe some abstracted, systematic components of it, and some effects of it. In a crucial sense, Socionics deals with form rather than content. INDIVIDUAtion is naturally about the INDIVIDUAl, and Socionics as an abstract theory can’t possibly describe that completely, so I think these experiences RELATE to Socionics without being encapsulated by it (i.e. their content may be unusually profound and include phenomena Socionics can't entirely process or fit into its limited framework).
    Of course I agree with that. The individuation process affects the whole being, so naturally also the type, and much more. In the type especially the problem of the suggestive/inferior function. But generally I think the focus is on the life of the individual as a whole, and I don't see Socionics as that important.

    Just to be clear: When I say that I see Ne in Jung, I don't mean visions and psychic experiences. I mean his cognition in general, approach to problem solving, therapeutic methods, general way of reasoning, the psychology as a whole.
    The decisive thing is not the reality of the object, but the reality of the subjective factor, i.e. the primordial images, which in their totality represent a psychic mirror-world. It is a mirror, however, with the peculiar capacity of representing the present contents of consciousness not in their known and customary form but in a certain sense sub specie aeternitatis, somewhat as a million-year old consciousness might see them.

    (Jung on Si)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Exodus View Post
    It's honestly not that easy in terms of ROI. It's 90% marketing and most people won't pay that much for typing. The market is still quite small.

    You could probably just write a book on some random topic and get way more passive income for less effort.
    @qaz00, this is why astrology can get you a lot more money. ツ

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    Quote Originally Posted by Varlawend View Post
    I appreciate your comments in clarification about Jung.

    Typology systems should be understood as partly axiomatic and conventional, and partly as referring to something factual and empirical. In terms of SHS Socionics (which is more the focus of this thread), visions and hallucinations would indeed relate much more to Ni than to Ne. At the same time, there may be different conventions in alternative Socionics systems which refer to different aspects of reality, and in those cases, Jung’s psychology may fall more under Alpha quadra (e.g. the Archetype Center types Jung as ILE on the basis of his semantics of speech). There is no contradiction here; this is why I spoke about relativity before, because this issue comes up repeatedly and it’s important to the concrete epistemology of typology. There is no need for essentialism about what Ne or Ni intrinsically “is” (Ne and Ni are really just words used to refer to phenomena which may have clearer and more essential natures beyond the words), or about what Jung’s type “is”.

    Jung best fits Inspector in the SHS system because of his Balanced-Stable temperament (confirmed by ocular-motor reactions), Beta quadra exoticism and aristocracy, managerial traits, and right-spinning detailing orientation. I also find Jung to be quite readable and he is someone I admire a lot. Jung's focus on “control” and “not making mistakes” relates to the SHS Structural Logic function, and his focus on mundane reality/work/family relates to the familiar Comfort Sensing function. It’s not surprising that Jung would think in such a way since it is exactly his Social Mission as an Inspector, but I’m curious why you or he would perceive it as a general necessity for having a visionary or mystical experience. I think that attitude may itself relate to the difficulty for Inspector of performing such an Ni-heavy role.

    In SHS, Jung had something called an Ni (T) accentuation. This relates to the intense visions he experienced. Accentuations, especially when severe or related to weaker functions (Inspector launcher T is an inflexible and low-dimensional function), can cause serious psychological disturbances and obsessions. Furthermore, a positivist psyche like that of Inspector can’t easily function in an ordinary way under the influence of such problems since it's more difficult for a wholesome positivist psyche to tolerate such internal contradictions (but it has other advantages). Since we are so focused on certain functions during accentuations, we can also become very unique and specialized in that area, especially if we are able to integrate the acquired skills and knowledge into our psyche and human society in a balanced way. A T accentuation can be balanced by a Harmonizing subtype (which involves functions T, R and S), which is one reason I think Jung transitioned from a Normalizing to a Harmonizing subtype at this time in his life. As discussed above, a subtype change is no small thing and leads to a significant change in the personality; it could easily relate to a person’s journey of individuation.
    This indicates they have opposing views about at least in some aspects of what Ne and Ni is, hence there is a contradiction. I doubt that Archetype typed Jung based on semantics only, Jung's creation of IEs itself contradicts with what a Ne polr is from the view of some socionics theorists.

    Ofcourse different typists or people are gonna type people differently and they will have different views about what a certain IE is since typology not just socionics is about a complex subject, human psyche. But at the end, this is socionics, they dont go out and make a full different typology system. Their way of illustrating a type is also not that different although there can be opposing views in details. This is all fine and it can be even enlightening until when this opposing views points to something at the very core of their understanding, this leads a person to only appreciate one of them at least in certain aspects of their understanding.

    So I dont think it is valid to accept each typing of different school according to their own system in every case. Each system, understanding cant be equally right, if they clash. Different schools having their own measuring system isnt valid also since measuring system can be wrong or misplaced or not calibrated right.

  18. #2018

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallmo View Post
    It's not surprising at all that a Swiss psychiatrist in early 20:th century would be aristocratic. But you could also make the argument for Jung being democratic if you pick some different data from his life. And focus on mundane reality is hardly limited to Si. Si is just a very specific focus. He remained focus on mundane reality, just as any sane person, but he was of course mostly focused on the intellectual work.

    The problem I see is that the semantics of the functions are being expanded so that they can explain everything in life. "You need Si to be comfortable and Ni to have visions".

    These are important points imo. Gulenko's school often doesn't seem separate non-socionics factors (or what some people would classify as non-socionics factors) from type diagnostics. Environmental factors, society, mental illness, physical ailments, etc are all used to justify specific types rather than seen as extraneous. Personally I do not agree with that approach. Ironically in his book there is something along the lines of, "don't take socionics too seriously" or give it more say than it really has. Granted it is up to the beholder to decide, but it seems to me that a lot of things are being explained via socionics that shouldn't be. Compare to someone like Rick DeLong who listed many factors that influence behaviour and personality that are specifically not connected to socionics (hormones, gender, attitude, social conventions, genetics, even something like charisma). These are very different approaches, and one seems more rational and ethical (as much as socionics can be either) to me, at least - seems a bit more nuanced.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dangerouslandsvape View Post
    These are important points imo. Gulenko's school often doesn't seem separate non-socionics factors (or what some people would classify as non-socionics factors) from type diagnostics. Environmental factors, society, mental illness, physical ailments, etc are all used to justify specific types rather than seen as extraneous. Personally I do not agree with that approach. Ironically in his book there is something along the lines of, "don't take socionics too seriously" or give it more say than it really has. Granted it is up to the beholder to decide, but it seems to me that a lot of things are being explained via socionics that shouldn't be. Compare to someone like Rick DeLong who listed many factors that influence behaviour and personality that are specifically not connected to socionics (hormones, gender, attitude, social conventions, genetics, even something like charisma). These are very different approaches, and one seems more rational and ethical (as much as socionics can be either) to me, at least - seems a bit more nuanced.
    This is not fair at all, lots of socionists are doing this, again this can be seen in other typology system besides socionics as well.

    Just check here, scroll down you will see like personality disorders like histronic, ocd, antisocial etc being associated with types, this is not G doing this: https://www.the16types.info/info/typesview.htm

    Again on Talanov test there were/are lots of questions about bowel movements, hair pulling, various physical and mental illness etc.

    This is a common thing, that is happening in typology.

    PS: I have no idea who is Rick and I think that also a common thing.

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    http://socionist.blogspot.com/?m=1

    Maybe not a figure now, but a founder in the western socionics community. One of the guys behind wikisocion.

    Regardless of how many people are doing it, I disagree with the trend. Talanov measures associations, which is different from explaining things via socionics, at least.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dangerouslandsvape View Post
    Talanov measures associations, which is different from explaining things via socionics, at least.
    Associations with types, which is literally explaining things via socionics.

    Definitely and spesifically not a fan of bowel movement questions, but he reached some great conclusions and carried theory to another level thats why he is a figure and same goes for G.

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    I see that there is a tendency to explain something in terms of a cog in a machine. It might work with the masses but might fail miserably when it comes to individuals.

    To go further with this approach mental illness diagnoses or whatever along those lines are prone to even stronger biases. What a wonderful combination to potentially confuse heck out of you. It is better to keep some things separate if a person seeks answers because I it might point towards underlying confusion.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dangerouslandsvape View Post
    These are important points imo. Gulenko's school often doesn't seem separate non-socionics factors (or what some people would classify as non-socionics factors) from type diagnostics. Environmental factors, society, mental illness, physical ailments, etc are all used to justify specific types rather than seen as extraneous. Personally I do not agree with that approach. Ironically in his book there is something along the lines of, "don't take socionics too seriously" or give it more say than it really has. Granted it is up to the beholder to decide, but it seems to me that a lot of things are being explained via socionics that shouldn't be. Compare to someone like Rick DeLong who listed many factors that influence behaviour and personality that are specifically not connected to socionics (hormones, gender, attitude, social conventions, genetics, even something like charisma). These are very different approaches, and one seems more rational and ethical (as much as socionics can be either) to me, at least - seems a bit more nuanced.
    I guess the problem is that there are lots of tendencies that are true as tendencies, and Gulenko is using these for typing, but then one should be very careful and check exceptions and look at the individual very carefully. I don't know if G is always doing that. But I haven't followed everything G does.

    I remember reading Rick's website back in the day when I learned socionics. It was pretty good, but last time I checked it was gone, and Rick lost his Socionics interest.
    The decisive thing is not the reality of the object, but the reality of the subjective factor, i.e. the primordial images, which in their totality represent a psychic mirror-world. It is a mirror, however, with the peculiar capacity of representing the present contents of consciousness not in their known and customary form but in a certain sense sub specie aeternitatis, somewhat as a million-year old consciousness might see them.

    (Jung on Si)

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    Quote Originally Posted by crazymaisy View Post
    For me, cognitive styles, read all of them.

    Which one makes you wish there was more information. Yours.

    Which one has more in it that you identify with. Me, it' s DA. CA is familiar. DA is absolutely me. HP and VS are mysterious.
    Thank you @craizymaisy. I might just go take another look then, and see if anything becomes apparent to me.

  27. #2027

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    Thinking ab getting typed by Gulenko but dunno if it’d be worth the money
    “Anything is possible. It is night on planet earth and I'm alive. And someday I'll be dead.
    Someday I'll just be bones in a box, but right now, I'm not.
    And anything is possible.”

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    I have this half-pet theory/half-ego stroke that Ne valuers are set up to individuate the easiest

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    Quote Originally Posted by ariesangel View Post
    Thinking ab getting typed by Gulenko but dunno if it’d be worth the money
    Probs if you find SHS interesting or you think that you are weird.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallmo View Post
    It's neither Ne or Ni. It's not related to socionics in this case. In a severe life crisis the unconscious comes alive, and any type can experience it. It's dangerous.
    I agree that any type can experience it, but I also think it is experienced through Ni, the unconscious coming through that is. This is similar to how immediate contact with reality is experienced through Se.

    Accentuation is separate from type and subtype in SHS, so any type can theoretically have any function be accentuated. In the case of contact with the unconscious, it is more likely related to Ni accentuation, in my view. I think accentuation is best understood as being "possessed" by a function, and being "possessed" by Ni means fixation on symbols, dreams, archetypes, etc (even if they are not consciously identified as such by the person experiencing it). Jung talks alot obout how Ni is in touch with unconscious, so I don't even think it's radical to speculate that being possessed by Ni would lead to being possessed by the unconscious. Being in touch with the unconscious is dangerous in cases where it gets extreme, I think. Psychosis can be a consequence in these cases.


  31. #2031

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sanguine Miasma View Post
    Probs if you find SHS interesting or you think that you are weird.
    What’s SHS? I think I am pretty weird tbh lol
    “Anything is possible. It is night on planet earth and I'm alive. And someday I'll be dead.
    Someday I'll just be bones in a box, but right now, I'm not.
    And anything is possible.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by ariesangel View Post
    What’s SHS? I think I am pretty weird tbh lol
    That's Viktor Gulenko's School of Humanitarian Socionics.

    https://socioniks.net/en/index/

  33. #2033

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    Quote Originally Posted by godslave View Post
    That's Viktor Gulenko's School of Humanitarian Socionics.

    https://socioniks.net/en/index/
    Dang, mans got his own school and everything. Wow

    It seems like half the ppl here like him and the other half are like “meh” towards him. WHO DO I LISTEN TO
    “Anything is possible. It is night on planet earth and I'm alive. And someday I'll be dead.
    Someday I'll just be bones in a box, but right now, I'm not.
    And anything is possible.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by ariesangel View Post
    Dang, mans got his own school and everything. Wow

    It seems like half the ppl here like him and the other half are like “meh” towards him. WHO DO I LISTEN TO
    I encourage you to explore his website. Even though his Model G is a little bit different from Model A, there are still a lot of very interesting content which are common to both Models and a ton of extra stuff ! I think that the more perspectives and POV we have on a subject the better. Maybe you'll find some very insightful stuff in there. Personally when I learn something I always learn it from multiple sources.

  35. #2035
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    Quote Originally Posted by ariesangel View Post
    WHO DO I LISTEN TO
    Your own assessment.


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    Thanks guys I will do just that
    “Anything is possible. It is night on planet earth and I'm alive. And someday I'll be dead.
    Someday I'll just be bones in a box, but right now, I'm not.
    And anything is possible.”

  37. #2037
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    Visions/hallucinations = Ni? I'm pretty sure the DSM and ICD both disagree...

    Ni: development over time (processes), cause and effect, history, planning, forecasting, past/future, rhythm, speed, urgency, fantasy


    Introverted intuition is an introverted, irrational, and dynamic information element. It is also called Ni, T, temporal intuition, or white intuition. Ni is generally associated with the ability to recognize the unfolding of processes over time (how one event leads to another), have visions of the past and future, develop mental imagery, and see intangible hints of relationships between processes or objects. Types that value Ni always like to have in mind a specific plan for how their life will develop in the future. Thus they have little time for the concept of "living for the moment" or "making the best of the present". They generally engage in pure leisure activities only for short periods of time, and even then their leisure activities generally involve a psychologically demanding or competitive aspect.

    When it says "visions" there, it does not mean psychosis, it means an imagined goal/direction...


    Also
    ...thus they have little time for the concept of "living for the moment" or "making the best of the present".
    Good lord, Alive, you couldn't be further off by typing me as IEI.

    Types that value Ni always like to have in mind a specific plan for how their life will develop in the future.
    Ni is generally associated with the ability to recognize the unfolding of processes over time
    Ni is one of my greatest weaknesses. I actually depend on my LIE-Ni to feed me this because I struggle to produce it on my own. He literally schedules my time/etc. with daily tasks, I'm that bad at it. I come to him with all the crap on my plate and go, "what do I do with this?" He schedules it all out for me, gives me plans. Meanwhile, I help him to be more in the moment and not stress over things as much, as I am naturally in the here and now/present tense.
    Last edited by Fluffy Princess Unicorn; 06-14-2022 at 08:43 PM.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Leviathan View Post
    Visions/hallucinations = Ni? I'm pretty sure the DSM and ICD both disagree...
    https://socioniks.net/en/article/?id=126

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alive View Post
    Victor DarkAngelFireWolf69 (also known as Viktor Gul-en-ko) (born December 2, 1958) is a clinical psychologist and sociologist.

    ICD-10-CM codes were developed and are maintained by CDC's National Center for Health Statistics under authorization by the WHO.
    DSM is by American Psychiatric Association.
    Both are maintained via empirical data and studies. Gul-en-ko's work is theoretical—more specifically, it is a nomothetic theory. It is not based on empirical data or other objective standards.

    My tone and intention in this is polite, I'm not trying to be a dick, but: this is the kind of shit that makes me think you're Te PoLR. You have no idea how to organize or prioritize information.


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    I do not know what you mean. I work with gulenko and am basically a member of his humanitarian socionics school and therefore a follower of his theories, even if I disagree with some aspects of it. Gulenko never claimed to be objective, nor does he care. "Empirical data" is often just a buzzword used by the scientific community but it seems almost impossible to be objective in a subjective field like psyvhology in my opinion. This thread is about gulenko's school. You can follow and agree with the conclusions he makes, or you don't and use the big five or any other socionics school. According to his school, Ni is related to imagination, abstract thinking and visions. I then made the conclusion that artists and abstract scientists must be Ni types then.

    "You have no idea how to organize or prioritize information."

    I do not understand how this has anything to do with anything I wrote here

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