Beta communication..

[SGF]

I seem to get ...paranoid... and question ppl's motives if their communication is unclear. I seem to need ppl to be either blunt af with me or to properly emote and sincerely express themselves. I'd rather we fight, than have something weird festering in the background feeding my distrust.

do you guys relate? Is this just LSI stuff or NTR or e6 stuff?

Sometimes he sees conspiracies, evil intentions of people. Anyone who does not openly express his attitude towards him falls under suspicion.

[grumpyvic81]

I seem to get ...paranoid... and question ppl's motives if their communication is unclear. I seem to need ppl to be either blunt af with me or to properly emote and sincerely express themselves. I'd rather we fight, than have something weird festering in the background feeding my distrust.

do you guys relate? Is this just LSI stuff or NTR or e6 stuff?

I don't relate, I still think ESI kinda for you : p iirc I said that before

EDIT: I mean, I can get really guarded myself but I don't usually question like that. Bluntness and emoting are both OK tho

[SGF]

I don't relate, I still think ESI kinda for you : p iirc I said that before

EDIT: I mean, I can get really guarded myself but I don't usually question like that. Bluntness and emoting are both OK tho

Maybe its my e6 as well. If ppl aren't expressing themselves clearly and I fail to read them I get suspicious and may question their motives, if things get really bad and they are obviously hiding stuff.. then I won't be able to trust them anymore and losing trust is grounds for hostility until their intentions are made clear to me. I can be pretty blunt myself as long as I feel safe enough. Publicly more proper tho and use a polite front.

[grumpyvic81]

Maybe its my e6 as well. If ppl aren't expressing themselves clearly and I fail to read them I get suspicious and may question their motives, if things get really bad and they are obviously hiding stuff.. then I won't be able to trust them anymore and losing trust is grounds for hostility until their intentions are made clear to me.

I see. I dunno I just find ESIs even more suspicious than LSIs, but I'm not trying to retype you anyhow, done with this topic : p

It sure sounds like E6 tho yeah

[persimmonism]

I overthink people's opinions of me, but I'm not paranoid about motives so I think it could be 6 + low F

[Adam Strange]

I overthink people's opinions of me, but I'm not paranoid about motives so I think it could be 6 + low F

How could someone not like chocolatte? Combines chocolate and coffee, right? I'm in love. Lol.

[persimmonism]

How could someone not like chocolatte? Combines chocolate and coffee, right? I'm in love. Lol.

=)
our minds like to invent things!

[Computer Loser]

LSI-type related? Probz.

--Ti is about finding inconsistencies. I often catch things that are slightly "off" or "wrong" in the external atmosphere (minute things that weren't there before)- and sometimes when this is taken too far, leads me to excessive paranoia.

--Role Fi: We're never too sure where we stand with people, we need people to reassure us thru words and actions --> May cause paranoia

--Weak, but valued / - We're often mistrustful of other people and what their intentions are. I can see this leading to paranoia unless we get some concrete feedback.

--Our Ne PoLR can cause us to imagine more failures, disasters, the unexpected / unconventional, and many more worst case scenarios. Easily a paranoia scenario here. Yikes. It's why we need to take a step back, and take a breather.

Speaking of which,

In terms of "beta communication,"

I often find myself in a "gloomy, dark" mood, with my emotions feeling "stuck" at times in quick sand ... I find myself unable to pull myself out unless I have some vessel to pour everything in / a opportunity to express my emotions. / or when others can jump in and snap me out of it.

Seeing the motivations of other people is hit and miss (esp. those that value ) unless as u put it, people are upfront and frank with me:

--Talking to me
--Texting me
--Calling me
--Making some kind of facial expression, reacting in some way, etc
--Anything besides saying/doing nothing

We need changes / fluctuations in our emotional atmosphere, we need some noise, some exaggeration to get the engine started. We need some passion, we need color to fill the room. We need the opportunity to emote, or else we stay stuck in our black-and-white, cold and bitter world

So yes, beta IM elements definitely help

[SGF]

I often find myself in a "gloomy, dark" mood, with my emotions feeling "stuck" at times in quick sand ... I find myself unable to pull myself out unless I have some vessel to pour everything in / a opportunity to express my emotions.

Seeing the motivations of other people is hit and miss (especially those that value ) unless as u put it, people are upfront and frank with me. We need changes / fluctuations in our emotional atmosphere, we need some noise, some exaggeration to get the engine started. We need some passion, we need color to fill the room. We need the opportunity to emote, or else we stay stuck in our black-and-white, cold and bitter world

So yes, beta IM elements definitely help

yeah, I completely agree.

[Chiquichiquaquiles]

I question people when they emote too much for no reason, personally. I find it easier to deal with unemotional people.

Maybe it is specific to IxTx 6s.

[SGF]

I question people when they emote too much for no reason, personally. I find it easier to deal with unemotional people.

Maybe it is specific to IxTx 6s.

It means you value the Te-Fi axis. As far as I understood SLIs for example are suspicious of ppl who Fe a lot.

[Xima]

Could be low Fe, could be Ne Polr too

[Rebelondeck]

Speaking as an outsider, I find that with:
IEI (INFp), I never seem to get through to them because what I say isn't usually what they want to hear; they often attempt to subtly lead (without committing themselves) the conversation in order to get words of support for their positions;
EIE (ENFj), I'm often uncertain as to whether or not they're telling me the truth or what they think I want to hear. Many have told me one thing and something entirely different to someone else in order to achieve purpose;
SLE (ESTp), their words often come across as too positive to be true and I sometimes get suspicious of their assertions and promises even though they can be very clear about what they intend; and
LSI (ISTj), we seem to understand each other although we're usually interested in and express opinions about different aspects of the same thing. I usually have to be careful in what I say because, like ESTp, they're so literal.

I don't think Betas share much commonality in communication because their preference priorities are different.

a.k.a. I/O

[SGF]

Speaking as an outsider, I find that with:
IEI (INFp), I never seem to get through to them because what I say isn't usually what they want to hear; they often attempt to subtly lead (without committing themselves) the conversation in order to get words of support for their positions;

EIE (ENFj), I'm often uncertain as to whether or not they're telling me the truth or what they think I want to hear. Many have told me one thing and something entirely different to someone else in order to achieve purpose;

A delicate way to say they are manipulative.

SLE (ESTp), their words often come across as too positive to be true and I sometimes get suspicious of their assertions and promises even though they can be very clear about what they intend; and
LSI (ISTj), we seem to understand each other although we're usually interested in and express opinions about different aspects of the same thing. I usually have to be careful in what I say because, like ESTp, they're so literal.

I don't think Betas share much commonality in communication because their preference priorities are different.

a.k.a. I/O

Interesting

[Rebelondeck]

A delicate way to say they are manipulative......

All types can be manipulative; most IEI are protectionist so the word isn't as appropriate. Now, the EIE that I've met generally like to play the crowd and are better at it than most other types. I would say that both types tailor their communications but usually for diverse purposes that have no evil intent - and some are better at it than others of the same type.

a.k.a. I/O

[Adam Strange]

I think it's a combination of both LSI and e6 in addition to POLR Ne. My SLI friend seems to be 6w5 but he doesn't spend his time trying to figure out people's motivations (he actually finds it to be a waste of his time). He would rather take them at face value until they do something against him. He's more suspicious of intense outward manifestations of emotionality and expression (POLR Fe).

I get somewhat suspicious of people's motivations but I mostly roll with it. I don't mind the ambiguity as much. I just note the inconsistencies and wait to see how things play out.

With my 6w5 (649 sp/sx) LSI ex, he was constantly accusing me of things, I would overexplain, he would get paranoid, try to twist everything I said,we would talk at each other for hours. It later turned out that he just needed a woman to lash out at because of his unresolved mommy and sexuality issues. The thing is I could never quite get comfortable with him because he told me very disturbing things in the beginning and he rushed the relationship way too fast.

I get that the anxiety and paranoia are kinda just part of 6w5 LSI, but it's good to accept that everyone is fallible, even you. Being constantly questioned about your motivations can end up feeling like gaslighting. It's great to have people be consistent and blunt but the onus shouldn't be on the partner to constantly reassure or prove themselves to you...otherwise it feels controlling and borderline abusive. People may actually end up BSing you because they don't know how they actually think or feel about something but feel pressured to give a response. So escalating things to a fight may actually lead to more BS in the end.

I think EIE-Fe 1w2 or an e4 might the ideal type of dual for you. Avoid e3 for romantic endeavors... I mean to say e3s aren't exactly consistent and will tend to adapt their image.

My last GF was LSI 6w5 and the bolded is a remarkably good description of her.

She'd accuse me of cheating because she hadn't seen me for a few days. I'd say "I'm not cheating". She'd look at me with suspicion but seemed to accept that.
She seemed to need a LOT of verbal reassurance.

That's not what broke us up, though. Not even her desire to control and confine me, which is non-negotiable in my book. Rather it was that she was seeking Fe and wasn't an ESI. It was a difference in values.

[Rebelondeck]

........ My bluntness actually seemed to hurt his feelings more than anyone I have ever met. That's why I thought he could be EII for the longest time. His Se seemed weak... didn't know how to cook and was physically weak/awkward/clumsy (would accidentally break things semi-regularly).

LSIs are never boring.

Certainly doesn't sound like any LSI that I've known. Also, I haven't met any truly blunt (with the truth) EIE, though some were rather boisterous. There must be past trust issues with the LSI.

a.k.a. I/O

[Lolita]

I’m not guarded or suspicious when ppl are unclear but if it’s important then I’ll ask them to clarify. If they refuse to clarify or become dodgy, then I’m going to attack. I don’t care if ppl emote so much if they’re Fe egos. If they’re Fi egos emoting from their Id then that’s annoying, especially IEE.

That’s kinda weird. Both my LSI exs are like that. The one I was with for 7 years especially hated ambiguity and he gets really mad about that. He’s pretty clear in his communication and expects the same out of others. After the first week we met, he was clear with me, said I’m his girlfriend (he didn’t ask, just informed me). Told all his friends about me and wanted them to meet me. If something was weird or off, he presses the issues (how he is generally). He’s 9w8 so he’s very patriarchal and stands his ground firmly, Se subtype. Most of the time, he’s easy going and really sweet. As for the other one, he’s 9w1 and Ti subtype, more rigid and although he doesn’t really get mad about ambiguity, he just simply ignores it. He would rather fight if there’s something to fight for, but if he deems something pointless, he just ignores it like it don’t exist. There was a time when we were out at a nice Italian restaurant and his ex came up to us and he just acted like she was a waitstaff “Can you get us more wine?”

[grumpyvic81]

SLE (ESTp), their words often come across as too positive to be true and I sometimes get suspicious of their assertions and promises even though they can be very clear about what they intend;

Some people have had that issue with me, but they just don't get that I don't need to plan out every little detail to be able to stick to what I say and carry it out.....just determination and adaptability are needed

[Rebelondeck]

Some people have had that issue with me, but they just don't get that I don't need to plan out every little detail to be able to stick to what I say and carry it out.....just determination and adaptability are needed

One of my best diagnosticians was SLE; he only followed his nose and had practical insight like no other. He never complied with the expectations of his clients; instead, he preferred to tell them what they needed, which most certainly didn't include a written report. He had the highest success rate at finding problems and was an excellent verbal communicator, but produced almost no formal documentation; I know that he spent an order of magnitude more energy avoiding what he didn't want to do than it would have taken to actually do it. His desire for personal freedom seemed to far outweigh his own good sense - and significantly reduce his overall potential.

a.k.a. I/O

[grumpyvic81]

One of my best diagnosticians was SLE; he only followed his nose and had practical insight like no other. He never complied with the expectations of his clients; instead, he preferred to tell them what they needed, which most certainly didn't include a written report. He had the highest success rate at finding problems and was an excellent verbal communicator, but produced almost no formal documentation; I know that he spent an order of magnitude more energy avoiding what he didn't want to do than it would have taken to actually do it. His desire for personal freedom seemed to far outweigh his own good sense - and significantly reduce his overall potential.

lol oh maybe from your pov it'd be easier to actually just do whatever to comply with the rules, but for that guy it prob really was different : P Isn't socionics about this exactly, to point out such differences in cognition?

Also potential doesn't exist outside of your own head. It's mere speculation that may not be implementable at all in the real world. Maybe he reached his own potential of the sort that can actually be implemented/actualised. You did say he was one of your best diagnosticians. So...

[Rebelondeck]

..... Maybe he reached his own potential of the sort that can actually be implemented/actualised....

I think that you're right. However, he was like a cop that solved every case that he was on - but all the criminals got off in court because there was no evidence on paper.

a.k.a. I/O

[grumpyvic81]

I think that you're right. However, he was like a cop that solved every case that he was on - but all the criminals got off in court because there was no evidence on paper.

a.k.a. I/O

That part does not have to be the cop's job

BTW he sounds abit like Ne>Se with wanting to just solve the case and not really focusing on the practical side beyond that

[Rebelondeck]

That part does not have to be the cop's job

BTW he sounds abit like Ne>Se with wanting to just solve the case and not really focusing on the practical side beyond that

Oh, he was very practical in just about everything he undertook; he just didn't want to do certain things. I have not met an ILE who could do what he could do, especially in the hands-on sense. He was very physically oriented playing rugby, racing a sled dog team, and maintaining a hobby-farm (commuting must have been murder so that wasn't so practical).

a.k.a. I/O

[Jo Lande]

I've been living with a number of Betas for a few months, though I can only give an outsider perspective.

LSI - Strong-minded and very straightforward in communication. They don't seem suspicious of others in my experience. Very independent, though, and will often take all the work on themselves to make sure it is done right, which could come off as being untrusting.

SLE - This one I can imagine being paranoid, but not without outside influence. In most conversations, it takes mentioning something, which often spurs them into action. For example from a real conversation involving two sisters:
SLE: D*** it, haven't got enough on me for tomorrow.
ILE: Same here. I heard C got a windfall last week.
SLE: The f***? Where she get that money? Pa lent her that, didn't he? I knew she wasn't cooking for him for nothing!
ILE: Hey, it's just a rumor. No need to get your panties bunched up.
SLE: Like h***! Pa won't get away with playing favorites. He's going to give me my money! (Steps out)
ILE: Here comes drama. (Follows with a grin on her face)
Most scenarios with SLE I know play out like this, with someone giving them new information and them looking for answers, usually assuming the worst.

EIE - Usually easy to talk to, unless you bring up a topic they don't like, then they become very avoidant. I would say they are the best at getting out of a bad situation, for better or worse, though they almost seem to want you to put them in their place. In my experience, they are stubborn until you display a show of forcefulness, then they become incredibly compliant. In that sense, there is this mental game where you can't figure out what they want. Actually, I think I'm more distrusting of EIEs than they are of me.

IEI - Never met one, so can't comment.

[EUDAEMONIUM]

If LSIs hear something that doesn't make sense to them or is slightly different from how they understand a subject or topic they will quickly correct their conversation partner. Their low Ne causes them to be distressed when they have to assume statements or quickly guess all of the potential implications of what they are hearing. That's why they love precise logical language it helps them make the best sense of what a person is saying. LSIs do not like dealing with delta NFs because all they like to do is think about all of the different perspectives of other people.

SLEs apply systematic pressure on everyone to gain influence over their environment, this is usually in some form of 'rank' or other hierarchical system. Almost without fail I will hear a SLE think of themselves as a shadow leader or a puppeteer. They think they are subtly influencing everyone and controlling them. They do not understand that although people are externally compliant their are hidden resentments that will come back to bite them in the ass.

EIEs and IEIs like to cause a stir, they want people to come together and get behind a common cause, their cause that is. They get caught up in their big romantic ideas that they will find doing basic everyday things like getting your oil changed as a ridiculously mundane task and not worthy of their time.

LSI and SLE appreciate grand romantic ideas delivered in a captivating way, ideas they can get behind that gives their life purpose. Their dual helps them be more content with their future make them feel like their actions have meaning.

EIE and IEI like unambiguous structure they can adhere themselves to to become disciplined and strong. Their dual helps them be more confident in the real world and make them feel their actions will make an impact.

[SGF]

If LSIs hear something that doesn't make sense to them or is slightly different from how they understand a subject or topic they will quickly correct their conversation partner.

Yeah.. other ppl actually complain to me about this as well.

Their low Ne causes them to be distressed when they have to assume statements or quickly guess all of the potential implications of what they are hearing. That's why they love precise logical language it helps them make the best sense of what a person is saying. LSIs do not like dealing with delta NFs because all they like to do is think about all of the different perspectives of other people.

I may come off at times as overly sure and "arrogant" in my assertions about things. When I say that "this is how it is" .. it probably bothers most ppl, not just Ne types.

LSI and SLE appreciate grand romantic ideas delivered in a captivating way, ideas they can get behind that gives their life purpose. Their dual helps them be more content with their future make them feel like their actions have meaning.

Yeah, I want this BAD. Sadly no EIE has delivered the goods yet. Just going to supply it myself..

[EUDAEMONIUM]

Speaking as an outsider, I find that with:
IEI (INFp), I never seem to get through to them because what I say isn't usually what they want to hear; they often attempt to subtly lead (without committing themselves) the conversation in order to get words of support for their positions;
EIE (ENFj), I'm often uncertain as to whether or not they're telling me the truth or what they think I want to hear. Many have told me one thing and something entirely different to someone else in order to achieve purpose;
SLE (ESTp), their words often come across as too positive to be true and I sometimes get suspicious of their assertions and promises even though they can be very clear about what they intend; and
LSI (ISTj), we seem to understand each other although we're usually interested in and express opinions about different aspects of the same thing. I usually have to be careful in what I say because, like ESTp, they're so literal.

I don't think Betas share much commonality in communication because their preference priorities are different.

a.k.a. I/O

This is very accurate.

An LSI said something like what you said about EIEs, about not being sure what they're saying is true. A girl at their work would joke with someone then talk behind their back and go through the entire day like that. It seemed very two faced and they couldn't really understand who she really liked and who she didn't and they weren't sure if she even liked them.

The point is to get Fe lol, that's pretty much it. The girl was saying those things just to get the reaction that she wanted. She could joke about someone she actually likes because she thought the joke would land and people would laugh.

She talks up a person she doesn't like because she doesn't want to start drama and would rather the communication be friendly.

I once asked this same LSI which Disney princess is the best in bed and they looked at me confused and said "How would I know?". I had to pause and say "use your imagination..."

So the literal thing is so true too IME.

[EUDAEMONIUM]

oops I didn't realize I replied to this thread already

[Northstar]

It's true that I try to put a positive spin on things, usually preferring to err on the side of being too optimistic than pessimistic when it comes to things like time estimates. It can become a bit of salesmanship to get others on board, not exactly lying but choosing to omit the negative and highlight the positive.

[Stray Cat]

Se/Ni is a "mature" dichotomy.

Ni is time, Se is force, STs are pragmatic, NFs are humanitarians. The conversations will be more action directed rather than theory