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Thread: 80 questions (round 2)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Myst View Post
    OP cares a tiny bit too much about what's boring/interesting/comfortable/enjoyable, instead of the long term NiTe considerations.
    The most consistent theme is : certain things being a waste of time, wanting to optimize one's resources, taking a very clinical look at the world. There also seems to be a corresponding strong rejection of , in the sense of getting passionate or excited about anything -- most of his answers were extremely terse and dispassionate -- so I would have a very hard time seeing ILE. Maybe SLI is worth considering though, it would explain some of the themes you mention.

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    ILI/SLI would go along with what I always get on socionics test, for what they are worth anyway. These are the results I got from the aimtoknow test I took a couple month ago, which I also posted on socionics test thread:

    147591273239496.png

    147591273239496 (1).png

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    I don't see ILE at all. If you want to be an LII why not. Your picture with a gun made me think of an LSI tho.


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    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush View Post
    The most consistent theme is : certain things being a waste of time, wanting to optimize one's resources, taking a very clinical look at the world. There also seems to be a corresponding strong rejection of , in the sense of getting passionate or excited about anything -- most of his answers were extremely terse and dispassionate -- so I would have a very hard time seeing ILE. Maybe SLI is worth considering though, it would explain some of the themes you mention.
    I really would not decide anything about type based on the length of answers in a questionnaire or on one mood displayed in-the-moment.

    As far as style matters (if at all) - is this ExTx business communication style or IxTx coldblooded communication style and/or Te creative. This is a question here.

    When I consider the ILE typing, that's also based on the ready speculating of models he consistently displays on the forum. Also, our interactions - he will add too many "could be's" for me to see Ni base for him. Not limiting options enough for that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Myst View Post
    I really would not decide anything about type based on the length of answers in a questionnaire or on one mood displayed in-the-moment.

    As far as style matters (if at all) - is this ExTx business communication style or IxTx coldblooded communication style and/or Te creative. This is a question here.
    In the context of other things he has said about having an extreme aversion to expectations of social participation, I think the association is supported.

    When I consider the ILE typing, that's also based on the ready speculating of models he consistently displays on the forum. Also, our interactions - he will add too many "could be's" for me to see Ni base for him. Not limiting options enough for that.
    The models stuff would be more Ti. I'm not really seeing a lot of "could be"s other than uncertainty about his own type. But he has also said things like "I could never possibly be X type.", "this is the way type X is" etc. The dominant mindset is of narrowing things down and providing factual observations IMO.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush View Post
    In the context of other things he has said about having an extreme aversion to expectations of social participation, I think the association is supported.
    No, without knowing exactly why the aversion, we cannot call it Fe PoLR. Since it is not a direct causal link between the two.


    The models stuff would be more Ti. I'm not really seeing a lot of "could be"s other than uncertainty about his own type. But he has also said things like "I could never possibly be X type.", "this is the way type X is" etc. The dominant mindset is of narrowing things down and providing factual observations IMO.
    I disagree, I most certainly did not experience that to be his dominant mindset.

    Models in that speculative way: Ti with Ne.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Myst View Post
    Models in that speculative way: Ti with Ne.
    It's difficult to see my actual personality online see I don't blame you for insisting on alpha NT. I would make another video but all I got is my shitty 3-4 year old cell phone camera and no proper stand or lighting for it.

    First I want to discuss Ne vs Ni and to present my case for being the latter instead the former. When I think of Ne, I think of it being more of a "here and now" awareness of opportunities, while Ni is more about delving deep into a certain subject. An Ne ego would excel more in debating in real-time discussion, would you need to instantly come up ideas with for what to say. Posting and making theories on a forum on the other hand lends itself more into the field of Ni because there is plenty time to think out what you are going to say. Ne is opportunistic, Ni is contemplative. If saw me on a normal day you definitely would see more of the latter.

    Here is a description of ILE's behavior from the Gulenko profile:

    "The ILE cannot keep the right distance in communication for long; first, he is friendly with a person, then, conversely, he is hostile and demonstrates a poor relation. He is undiscerning in people's attitudes towards himself, thus often makes mistakes in striking up friendships, acquaintances, and romantic ties. In interaction often behaves unceremoniously, may tactlessly intervene in a conversation, likes staring with a studying gaze while not considering other people's reactions. Rarely admits his own guilt. Even if he formally apologizes continues to behave as he did before. Puts forward far-going but often unrealistic within the circumstances plans. After a while forgets about them, then offers completely different, not logically related to the previous suggestions plans that are no less grand. Dismissive towards past achievements. Interested in and likes to talk about anything extraordinary and unusual from any fields of interest. Attracted to all the newest far-reaching theories: psychics, yoga, aura - everything that cannot be explained in terms of logic and common sense. Cannot explain his ideas logically, for they are always intuitive and vague in nature. Most people cannot understand them, they either believe or don't believe in them. Likes giving advice on how to get out of a difficult situation; with this often offers radical solutions."

    I know people who fit this description and I am definitely not one of them. I don't butt-in to people talking, and I don't make mistakes with choosing friendships and relationships and I don't behave the same way to someone after apologizing. I'm much more reserved in the way I act with people in the real-world.

    The Gulenko LII description fits better, but I still find Ti too repulsive to be my base function while also seeing too much value in Se to have it as polr. And after seeing the manner in which I actively avoid group interaction I don't think you find Fe polr too much out of the question. I know you associate that more with the social-last instinct but never the less the connection exist between Fe and socializing in groups.

    Anyway ILI was what I first thought I was when I first got into socionics and could still very well be possible. Maybe all those ILI test results weren't bull doo-doo after all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Muddytextures View Post
    It's difficult to see my actual personality online see I don't blame you for insisting on alpha NT. I would make another video but all I got is my shitty 3-4 year old cell phone camera and no proper stand or lighting for it.
    Sure it's harder to see all these things online.


    First I want to discuss Ne vs Ni and to present my case for being the latter instead the former. When I think of Ne, I think of it being more of a "here and now" awareness of opportunities, while Ni is more about delving deep into a certain subject. An Ne ego would excel more in debating in real-time discussion, would you need to instantly come up ideas with for what to say. Posting and making theories on a forum on the other hand lends itself more into the field of Ni because there is plenty time to think out what you are going to say. Ne is opportunistic, Ni is contemplative. If saw me on a normal day you definitely would see more of the latter.
    Uhm... I know ILEs in real life that look very zoned out up in the clouds thinking about their ideas by default.

    And they are definitely ILEs, one of them did look into MBTI enough to self type as ENTP, I know that's not Socionics but this person is set on being an extravert even though they can sit a lot at home. I have to agree about Ne being lead function for her.

    Another ILE I know is a guy, he can zone out so much and easily leaves groups to read up on his latest interests in a book or just goes around listening to music so much that people have wanted to see him as an introvert (INTP, in an MBTI group). He's not LII (or ILI, etc) however, his worldview is very definitely an extratim's worldview. Also very clearly, he treats his interests like Ne leads do. He's also had a decent attempt at (semi-)dualizing with an SxI-Si recently. Etc.


    OK, so. The big difference between Ne and Ni is that Ni limits options for achieving a goal so it naturally interfaces with Se and Ne doesn't limit them hence is not compatible with Se.

    See e.g. here: http://wholesocionics.herokuapp.com/...lement-Agendas

    "So Ne and Ni also play into this: Ni views the goal (abstract, not yet realized condition) as immutable while Ne views it as changeable. These two views are fundamentally incompatible. They then naturally lead to the dual approaches of Se and Si, which either do what it takes, no matter how uncomfortable or disruptive (Se) to achieve the fixed unrealized condition (Ni), or adapt to create a balance in the real world (Si) by capitalizing on available possibilities (Ne)."

    Speaking of that site, I also see this very much in you: "The negative condition for Ne is a sense of boredom or stagnation." Rather than: "The negative side is a feeling of aimlessness and lack of purpose." (for Ni)


    Now, as for your flair of theorizing - I've seen ILIs and LIEs theorize too, sure but they do it with more of a direction than you. They are more set in the idea that they have at a time. I can almost tangibly feel its "direction" and it being "set". The latter also links to the Se valuing again.


    Here is a description of ILE's behavior from the Gulenko profile
    Quite honestly, I've seen this in you with regard to the Fi part etc. Not that I mind.


    I know people who fit this description and I am definitely not one of them. I don't butt-in to people talking, and I don't make mistakes with choosing friendships and relationships and I don't behave the same way to someone after apologizing. I'm much more reserved in the way I act with people in the real-world.
    If you don't make mistakes with choosing friendships etc then you are just perfect with Fi. Like no one else in this world is. That statement of yours there was very exaggerated


    The Gulenko LII description fits better, but I still find Ti too repulsive to be my base function while also seeing too much value in Se to have it as polr. And after seeing the manner in which I actively avoid group interaction I don't think you find Fe polr too much out of the question. I know you associate that more with the social-last instinct but never the less the connection exist between Fe and socializing in groups.
    I've seen Fe HA descriptions about them actively avoiding group interaction. I had such a period in my life, too.


    Anyway, I rest my case here, I won't have much more time for this, busy with life stuff, etc - but I hope this helped some.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Myst View Post
    If you don't make mistakes with choosing friendships etc then you are just perfect with Fi. Like no one else in this world is. That statement of yours there was very exaggerated


    I've seen Fe HA descriptions about them actively avoiding group interaction. I had such a period in my life, too.


    Anyway, I rest my case here, I won't have much more time for this, busy with life stuff, etc - but I hope this helped some.
    I was being honest about never myself getting into bad friendships. It could be easier for me then most people though because I simply don't go out of my way in order to hang out with people.


    When I think about ILEs and their Fe HA, I think of clowning around, being nutty and trying to get the attention of other people. LIIs, too, always seem like they trying to gain the acceptance and attention of their peers though in a somewhat different manner then ILE. I'm telling you, this is NOT characteristic of me on a normal day. Most days I will go into work and do my job without saying a word to anyone except to ask about job related stuff. I know people who act like the ILEs in that description and they generally annoy me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Muddytextures View Post
    I was being honest about never myself getting into bad friendships. It could be easier for me then most people though because I simply don't go out of my way in order to hang out with people.
    Oh yes that's one way to avoid them.


    When I think about ILEs and their Fe HA, I think of clowning around, being nutty and trying to get the attention of other people. LIIs, too, always seem like they trying to gain the acceptance and attention of their peers though in a somewhat different manner then ILE.
    These are really narrow black and white stereotypes... One of the reasons why I'm sick of most of typology.


    I'm telling you, this is NOT characteristic of me on a normal day. Most days I will go into work and do my job without saying a word to anyone except to ask about job related stuff. I know people who act like the ILEs in that description and they generally annoy me.
    Look at least a tiny little bit past the 8 IEs in model A or B or G or whatever and look at other non-socionics factors too to understand this behaviour of yours.

    The IEs are directly only about the information processing, not behaviour, at all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Muddytextures View Post
    When I think about ILEs and their Fe HA, I think of clowning around, being nutty and trying to get the attention of other people. LIIs, too, always seem like they trying to gain the acceptance and attention of their peers though in a somewhat different manner then ILE. I'm telling you, this is NOT characteristic of me on a normal day. Most days I will go into work and do my job without saying a word to anyone except to ask about job related stuff. I know people who act like the ILEs in that description and they generally annoy me.
    This perception of ILEs is exaggerated, it doesn't apply to all by any means. But this kind of extreme avoidance / lack of appreciation of social contact is more typical of Vulnerable types.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush View Post
    This perception of ILEs is exaggerated, it doesn't apply to all by any means. But this kind of extreme avoidance / lack of appreciation of social contact is more typical of Vulnerable types.
    Why don't you two try and discover the motivation/issue behind this first - this question of whether Fe PoLR or Fe HA etc cannot be decided otherwise.

    Though my approach is not getting too stuck on each of these ambiguous details (just sometimes...), I just wait until there is enough data to show an Ego function.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Myst View Post
    Why don't you two try and discover the motivation/issue behind this first - this question of whether Fe PoLR or Fe HA etc cannot be decided otherwise.
    The reason for my social avoidance is because I simply don't see the point. People tend to act stupid when they get into groups and I try avoid that as much as possible. The only value in see in socializing is to exchange and gather information, other then that it seems pointless. With the few close friends and family I do have I can lighten up a little but I still prefer to do my own thing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Muddytextures View Post
    The reason for my social avoidance is because I simply don't see the point. People tend to act stupid when they get into groups and I try avoid that as much as possible. The only value in see in socializing is to exchange and gather information, other then that it seems pointless. With the few close friends and family I do have I can lighten up a little but I still prefer to do my own thing.
    They act stupid like how? Can you say more on this? (I guess I still have a little time for this bit :sigh lol)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Myst View Post
    They act stupid like how? Can you say more on this? (I guess I still have a little time for this bit :sigh lol)
    Multiple ways I could mention. Focusing your attention towards others takes attention away from yourself and I really only care about myself. Appealing to crowds usually requires you to dumb yourself down in order to appeal to the lowest common denominator. The things that frustrates the most though is when people turn a blind to eye to the individuals within the group in order to appeal to the group as a whole. For example, making fun of a certain individual in order to to get everyone else to laugh. Such people make me want to clock them square in the jaw.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Muddytextures View Post
    Multiple ways I could mention. Focusing your attention towards others takes attention away from yourself and I really only care about myself. Appealing to crowds usually requires you to dumb yourself down in order to appeal to the lowest common denominator. The things that frustrates the most though is when people turn a blind to eye to the individuals within the group in order to appeal to the group as a whole. For example, making fun of a certain individual in order to to get everyone else to laugh. Such people make me want to clock them square in the jaw.
    Soc last. With strong sp-first. I don't see Fe PoLR specifically. I totally relate to you on the last part, btw (last 3 sentences).

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    I want to add here too what I said on chat yesterday - I stand by the Si/Ne valuing Irrational Logical type for you (too many such statements from you in questionnaires etc) but I agreed with others that SLI is not an option to be excluded. Otoh, I must say I still lean towards ILE since you do focus on Ne ideas a lot, you argue in a Ne style (where I wasn't willing to bother with it in the past in one of your threads if you remember) and you said in the past that you suck with hands-on things.

    Not going to argue with anyone on the Si/Ne valuing etc, don't have time for this stuff anymore. Enjoy the typing journey or whatever. *unsubscribes from thread*

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    @thehotelambush, I finished going through your articles. I after reading and getting a better grasp of the types I certainly say SLI is probably a likelier type for me then ILI. I definitely find myself making verbal complaints with the delta valued the most, in that I tend to verbally criticize people over creating conflict the most as well as all the other corresponding delta functions. Fe and Se are the elements I subdue the most in behavior which would be consistent with SLI. My tendency for wild speculation that tends to annoy Myst could be childlike 1D suggestive Ne trying to exert itself. My previously stated distaste for Beta behavior would also match up with SLI.

    Thoughts?
    Last edited by Muddy; 11-25-2016 at 05:27 PM.

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    This might help. I've copy and pasted the examples of element complaints and how I view being directly criticized on them by others.

    "Ti: someone is being inconsistent or unfair, not following the rules" - I would view this as highly annoying and the person who said this as being a thorn in my side.

    "Te: someone is doing a task in the wrong way, is not making themselves useful, or is not making sense in their behavior-"
    Sensitive, I try to perform my best when performing a task and I take it as a personal failure if I do something wrong.


    "Fi: someone is being mean or insensitive or doing something morally wrong"
    -Indifferent mostly, could see it as valid critism in some cases and annoying in others.


    "Fe: someone is being emotionally closed or indifferent, or has a bad attitude which is affecting others"
    - Doesn't even register as something worth bringing up at all and I would probably completely ignore whoever said this.


    "Si: someone is creating conflict or unpleasantness, or isn't taking good care of themselves"-
    Could see the point this person would be making but I would probably just ignore them.


    "Se: someone is being lazy or out of touch with reality"
    - Very sensitive, I view laziness as one of my biggest character flaws. I don't really see myself as out of touch with reality though and I would probably ignore that part of it.


    "Ni: someone is acting without thinking of the consequences, or isn't making adequate preparation for something"
    - Dismissal, I don't have problems thinking things through or preparing for stuff.


    "Ne: someone is being close-minded or not considering something from a different perspective"
    - Dismissal, I view myself as capable in seeing what I need to see.
    Last edited by Muddy; 11-27-2016 at 02:38 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Muddytextures View Post
    This might help. I've copy and pasted the examples of element complaints and how I view being directly criticized on them by others.

    "Ti: someone is being inconsistent or unfair, not following the rules" - I would view this as highly annoying and the person who said this as being a thorn in my side.

    "Te: someone is doing a task in the wrong way, is not making themselves useful, or is not making sense in their behavior-"
    Sensitive, I try to perform my best when performing a task and I take it as a personal failure if I do something wrong.


    "Fi: someone is being mean or insensitive or doing something morally wrong"
    -Indifferent mostly, could see it as valid critism in some cases and annoying in others.


    "Fe: someone is being emotionally closed or indifferent, or has a bad attitude which is affecting others"
    - Doesn't even register as something worth bringing up at all and I would probably completely ignore whoever said this.


    "Si: someone is creating conflict or unpleasantness, or isn't taking good care of themselves"-
    Could see the point this person would be making but I would probably just ignore them.


    "Se: someone is being lazy or out of touch with reality"
    - Very sensitive, I view laziness as one of my biggest character flaws. I don't really see myself as out of touch with reality though and I would probably ignore that part of it.


    "Ni: someone is acting without thinking of the consequences, or isn't making adequate preparation for something"
    - Dismissal, I don't have problems thinking things through or preparing for stuff.


    "Ne: someone is being close-minded or not considering something from a different perspective"
    - Dismissal, I view myself as capable in seeing what I need to see.
    On the whole this sounds exactly like what an ILI would say.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush View Post
    On the whole this sounds exactly like what an ILI would say.
    Because he's biased towards ILI right now. Note how his Talanov results are also biased. Has high Se/Si in the results, yet Ni and Ti score the highest in it.

    The reason why I unsubscribed from this type thread is precisely that OP constantly shifts around their presentation. Impossible to type in any sensible way due to that.

    Just as an example of the shifting. Let me remind you of where you saw "typical" Ne stuff before in this same thread: post #33

    Then, post #11 was where I had enough of OP throwing around possibilities mindlessly. I could've been wrong about ILE, but the way it was done there was to me very reminiscent of how other ILEs (who actually do self type as alpha NT/ILE) do it. Including the unfounded assumptions about my way of thinking.

    Rethinking that, it might also be dependent on motivation more than on type. That is, him being convinced of a type at a moment (or of a type of someone else) and finding - very creatively - any arguments against any other viewpoint and making use of unfair assumptions in the process as well. The reason ILEs do something very similar to this is simply to expand possibilities to see more, otoh another type would do it out of their own conviction, even using unfair methods in the process. The ability of finding arguments so creatively is the one thing that I could see as type related. But I'm not going to guess if it was creative Ti, creative Te, or something else.

    Finally, of note is how OP also constantly shifts around his interpretation of Socionics. I don't know what that means. Along with the fact they are apparently still discovering themselves. Picking a type and then changing it later, repeat ad nauseam.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Myst View Post
    Because he's biased towards ILI right now.
    If anything I would actually say I was biased towards SLI going in to that. The good thing about those questions was that there wasn't a whole lot of room for multiple interpretations, you either would be sensitive towards a person making those statements or you wouldn't. If you answered them in different manner then what you really thought you would know that you would be lying. They are very simple and direct. I would even advocate for just using those as a questionnaire, much easier then answering 80q and making videos and probably more effective.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Myst View Post
    Because he's biased towards ILI right now. Note how his Talanov results are also biased. Has high Se/Si in the results, yet Ni and Ti score the highest in it.

    The reason why I unsubscribed from this type thread is precisely that OP constantly shifts around their presentation. Impossible to type in any sensible way due to that.

    Just as an example of the shifting. Let me remind you of where you saw "typical" Ne stuff before in this same thread: post #33
    Hmm that does look contradictory now that you mention it...

    (btw, I would never advocate using someone's self-description as a sole source of evidence, I was just making an observation.)

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    Yeah I suppose I know too much at this point, I'm all too aware of how my answers impact my typing. Still, I was not lying in how I answered the criticism questions. Sensitivity towards Te and Se criticism, annoyance and irritation with Ti criticism, not registering Fe criticism, indifference towards Fi and Si criticism, and bold dismissal of Ni and Ne criticism. I don't really see how I could view these any other way.

    I also hold the belief that types are capable of making temporary swings where they can display the common stereotypical traits of their extinguishment type. This would explain why I can sound ILE at times. Notice that I can back and forth between sounding ILE/ILI but I couldn't make myself sound like an ethical or sensory lead even if I tried.
    Last edited by Muddy; 11-27-2016 at 05:33 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Muddytextures View Post
    If anything I would actually say I was biased towards SLI going in to that. The good thing about those questions was that there wasn't a whole lot of room for multiple interpretations, you either would be sensitive towards a person making those statements or you wouldn't. If you answered them in different manner then what you really thought you would know that you would be lying. They are very simple and direct. I would even advocate for just using those as a questionnaire, much easier then answering 80q and making videos and probably more effective.
    That's actually an idea worth considering - using those questions for a questionnaire of sorts, lol.


    Quote Originally Posted by Muddytextures View Post
    Yeah I suppose I know too much at this point, I'm all too aware of how my answers impact my typing. Still, I was not lying in how I answered the criticism questions. Sensitivity towards Te and Se criticism, annoyance and irritation with Ti criticism, not registering Fe criticism, indifference towards Fi and Si criticism, and bold dismissal of Ni and Ne criticism. I don't really see how I could view these any other way.

    I also hold the belief that types are capable of making temporary swings where they can display the common stereotypical traits of their extinguishment type. This would explain why I can sound ILE at times. Notice that I can back and forth between sounding ILE/ILI but I couldn't make myself sound like an ethical or sensory lead even if I tried.
    As for the extinguishment type thing - I do agree that's possible. Just like with you thinking LSE for me, which type is my Extinguishment.

    You can't make yourself sound like an Ethics lead type, no, that's for sure.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Muddytextures View Post
    Still, I was not lying in how I answered the criticism questions. Sensitivity towards Te and Se criticism, annoyance and irritation with Ti criticism, not registering Fe criticism, indifference towards Fi and Si criticism, and bold dismissal of Ni and Ne criticism. I don't really see how I could view these any other way.
    I don't know how good that test is. Here's my answers where I assume these are said to me hypothetically ("someone" = me)

    So going through this, I can see more than one way to arrive at the same kind of answer.


    "Ti: someone is being inconsistent or unfair, not following the rules"
    - Indifference if I already have my opinion on it but if I don't understand where they are coming from, I'd ask about it more and be pretty interested in making sense of it.

    "Te: someone is doing a task in the wrong way, is not making themselves useful, or is not making sense in their behavior"
    - Irritating. Couldn't care less about the "useful" part, since I have my opinion on that already.

    "Fi: someone is being mean or insensitive or doing something morally wrong"
    - Indifferent or sometimes I would try to understand what they mean, again interested in making sense of the issue.

    "Fe: someone is being emotionally closed or indifferent, or has a bad attitude which is affecting others"
    - For the former part: I would feel weird/uneasy and not entirely understanding it? For the latter, either very annoyed and/or I'd want to understand what they mean.

    "Si: someone is creating conflict or unpleasantness, or isn't taking good care of themselves"
    - At unease for the former part, indifferent about the latter, actually hard to imagine being told this / dismissal.

    "Se: someone is being lazy or out of touch with reality"
    - Former: indifferent (see above for "useful", same thing). Latter: again hard to imagine this / dismissal.

    "Ni: someone is acting without thinking of the consequences, or isn't making adequate preparation for something"
    - Either hard to imagine this too or where I can imagine it, often dismissal. I do not prepare as much as some IxIs seem to but I do not prepare less than I need to. While IxI runs around worried, I know perfectly well it will all be fine and I can even deliberately piss them off more for fun (not out of bad intentions). As for considering consequences, I decide myself when I am able to learn from mistakes by drawing the final conclusions and when I still need to analyze more to understand. Then my future actions depend on that. ...EDIT: this is true of only logical stuff. With people related stuff, I can take advice on this actually.

    "Ne: someone is being close-minded or not considering something from a different perspective"
    - Blah, fuck off. Usually these people are no more open-minded, they seem just as convinced about their viewpoint as I am about mine, at least they certainly do not try to consider mine.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Muddytextures View Post
    Even though I see myself as lazy, I'm much happier when actually doing something. Its just that there aren't a lot of things I find interesting in the outside world and am stuck not knowing what to do a lot of times.
    This is a recurring theme so maybe this one is reliable. So my suggestion is, think about what makes you stuck not knowing. What kind of information you are missing or what kind of obstacle gets in the way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Myst View Post
    I don't know how good that test is. Here's my answers where I assume these are said to me hypothetically ("someone" = me)

    So going through this, I can see more than one way to arrive at the same kind of answer.


    "Ti: someone is being inconsistent or unfair, not following the rules"
    - Indifference if I already have my opinion on it but if I don't understand where they are coming from, I'd ask about it more and be pretty interested in making sense of it.

    "Te: someone is doing a task in the wrong way, is not making themselves useful, or is not making sense in their behavior"
    - Irritating. Couldn't care less about the "useful" part, since I have my opinion on that already.

    "Fi: someone is being mean or insensitive or doing something morally wrong"
    - Indifferent or sometimes I would try to understand what they mean, again interested in making sense of the issue.

    "Fe: someone is being emotionally closed or indifferent, or has a bad attitude which is affecting others"
    - For the former part: I would feel weird/uneasy and not entirely understanding it? For the latter, either very annoyed and/or I'd want to understand what they mean.

    "Si: someone is creating conflict or unpleasantness, or isn't taking good care of themselves"
    - At unease for the former part, indifferent about the latter, actually hard to imagine being told this / dismissal.

    "Se: someone is being lazy or out of touch with reality"
    - Former: indifferent (see above for "useful", same thing). Latter: again hard to imagine this / dismissal.

    "Ni: someone is acting without thinking of the consequences, or isn't making adequate preparation for something"
    - Either hard to imagine this too or where I can imagine it, often dismissal. I do not prepare as much as some IxIs seem to but I do not prepare less than I need to. While IxI runs around worried, I know perfectly well it will all be fine and I can even deliberately piss them off more for fun (not out of bad intentions). As for considering consequences, I decide myself when I am able to learn from mistakes by drawing the final conclusions and when I still need to analyze more to understand. Then my future actions depend on that. ...EDIT: this is true of only logical stuff. With people related stuff, I can take advice on this actually.

    "Ne: someone is being close-minded or not considering something from a different perspective"
    - Blah, fuck off. Usually these people are no more open-minded, they seem just as convinced about their viewpoint as I am about mine, at least they certainly do not try to consider mine.
    If hotel is correct in typing me as ILI and the same pattern that held for me also applies for you, I would probably say SLE would match up the most. Boldness towards the Base/ignoring, irritation towards the demonstrative, lack of understanding towards the Polr, split opinion towards HA, lots of attention directed towards the suggestive. The only main differences I see is more open distaste towards the role and less openly stated sensitivity towards creative/suggestive, which might be explained by enneagram 8's desire to conceal their weakness and sensitivities. I do remember in our messages that things lost track as soon as I started talking about Ni, suggesting it is a sensitive area. Anyway I'm not going to get into whether I think you are SLE/LSI/LSE or whatever, but your answers do seem to at least be in the ballpark of Beta ST, judging purely based on how your answers compare to mine. I think the questionnaire could be a useful tool.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Muddytextures View Post
    If hotel is correct in typing me as ILI and the same pattern that held for me also applies for you, I would probably say SLE would match up the most. Boldness towards the Base/ignoring, irritation towards the demonstrative, lack of understanding towards the Polr, split opinion towards HA, lots of attention directed towards the suggestive. The only main differences I see is more open distaste towards the role and less openly stated sensitivity towards creative/suggestive, which might be explained by enneagram 8's desire to conceal their weakness and sensitivities. I do remember in our messages that things lost track as soon as I started talking about Ni, suggesting it is a sensitive area. Anyway I'm not going to get into whether I think you are SLE/LSI/LSE or whatever, but your answers do seem to at least be in the ballpark of Beta ST, judging purely based on how your answers compare to mine. I think the questionnaire could be a useful tool.
    Interesting analysis. Sure it wouldn't be a worse tool than others already out there. That doesn't say a whole lot though =P

    Where I see some pattern in my answers is, with both T's I talked of my opinions with confidence beyond the dismissiveness, with both S's the confident dismissive attitude (for Si the first part would be more Ethics related the way I viewed it), with the F ones lack of understanding but some openness, less openness (slight dismissiveness) for N ones. Whatever this may mean for exact type beyond being ST (and Te/Ne devaluing so beta ST, yeah).

    Yeah I don't have much in the way of sensitivities to be admitted.


    For you, I'd see a pattern with dismissive confidence in the N's where you had some opinions expressed too, plain dismissiveness for much of the S ones for some reason and the extra sensitivity (would have to know WHY you have that on the topic of laziness to say more), for the F ones lack of attention and for the T ones a lot of negativity. Whatever that means, again, would have to know the WHYs. Sounds more N>S on the surface at least, though you sounded relatively confident on S too (like for me with N??), and not F type, for sure

    Oh and note that I was intentionally not using any nuances of any Socionics function models so that I could see patterns a bit more unbiased. Not that there's enough unambiguous data to work with, so partially a waste of time...


    As for the PM... Things lost track when you made assumptions and didn't want to hear me where I said they were not matching reality. So that's not to do with complexity of ideas but simply breakdown of communication with you for some reason not taking in where I said what matched and what didn't match in reality. I've had that problem with ILIs before, btw. But I wouldn't know the motivation behind it so not gonna relate it to type.


    PS: I see your profile now. "Shape shifting NT" is good for you

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    Quote Originally Posted by Myst View Post



    For you, I'd see a pattern with dismissive confidence in the N's where you had some opinions expressed too, plain dismissiveness for much of the S ones for some reason and the extra sensitivity (would have to know WHY you have that on the topic of laziness to say more), for the F ones lack of attention and for the T ones a lot of negativity. Whatever that means, again, would have to know the WHYs. Sounds more N>S on the surface at least, though you sounded relatively confident on S too (like for me with N??), and not F type, for sure
    I'll elaborate more on the laziness thing. I'm only lazy when it comes maintenance and work around the house type stuff. When it comes to actual on-the-clock work I'm actually very active and hardworking. I like to chunk all unpleasant and work related things towards one time period and all pleasure/relaxation related things to another. I don't like having to suddenly work while I'm relaxing, and I don't like goofing around while I'm working. I also add that it is precisely because of my sensitivity towards Te/Se related criticism that drives me towards high performance at work and other hobbies, though I also enjoy simply being the best as well. Someone calling me lazy for not raking leaves on my driveway however will get me very annoyed and frustrated as those type of things mean very little to me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Muddytextures View Post
    I'll elaborate more on the laziness thing. I'm only lazy when it comes maintenance and work around the house type stuff. When it comes to actual on-the-clock work I'm actually very active and hardworking. I like to chunk all unpleasant and work related things towards one time period and all pleasure/relaxation related things to another. I don't like having to suddenly work while I'm relaxing, and I don't like goofing around while I'm working. I also add that it is precisely because of my sensitivity towards Te/Se related criticism that drives me towards high performance at work and other hobbies, though I also enjoy simply being the best as well. Someone calling me lazy for not raking leaves on my driveway however will get me very annoyed and frustrated as those type of things mean very little to me.
    Which one do you see yourself in of the following? "For the Decisive sensing types, mobilization has something to do with sensing—it is something physiological, a corporal condition (mobilization for them is perceived as bodily tension). Decisive intuitive types experience (and accordingly describe) a condition of mobilization that likened to internal readiness or inspiration. In a similar fashion, relaxation for Judicious sensing types is a physical sensation/condition—an absence of pressure and stress on the body. Judicious intuitive types primarily feel this certain rhythm, of alternation of opposite states. In other words, relaxation or slackness can be perceived as divergence of attention, while mobilization as focus, as convergence of attention."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Myst View Post
    Which one do you see yourself in of the following? "For the Decisive sensing types, mobilization has something to do with sensing—it is something physiological, a corporal condition (mobilization for them is perceived as bodily tension). Decisive intuitive types experience (and accordingly describe) a condition of mobilization that likened to internal readiness or inspiration. In a similar fashion, relaxation for Judicious sensing types is a physical sensation/condition—an absence of pressure and stress on the body. Judicious intuitive types primarily feel this certain rhythm, of alternation of opposite states. In other words, relaxation or slackness can be perceived as divergence of attention, while mobilization as focus, as convergence of attention."
    "Alternation of opposite states" would best describe me, as I stated my in previous where I shift into completely opposite modes depending on whether I'm at work, where I'm very active, or home, where I'm very relaxed. I deeply dislike disruptions where I'm forced to do something while in relaxation mode, or on the contrary where I'm forced to relax while I'm focused and energized. So I guess you could consider that as +1 for judicious intuitive.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Muddytextures View Post
    "Alternation of opposite states" would best describe me, as I stated my in previous where I shift into completely opposite modes depending on whether I'm at work, where I'm very active, or home, where I'm very relaxed. I deeply dislike disruptions where I'm forced to do something while in relaxation mode, or on the contrary where I'm forced to relax while I'm focused and energized. So I guess you could consider that as +1 for judicious intuitive.
    Yes I noticed this in your previous description and that's why I linked this, I wanted to see if you identify with it (As I did see it as the Si/Ne version)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Muddytextures View Post
    "Alternation of opposite states" would best describe me, as I stated my in previous where I shift into completely opposite modes depending on whether I'm at work, where I'm very active, or home, where I'm very relaxed. I deeply dislike disruptions where I'm forced to do something while in relaxation mode, or on the contrary where I'm forced to relax while I'm focused and energized. So I guess you could consider that as +1 for judicious intuitive.
    I have the exact same issue.

    In my case, it's maybe due to rationality. Irrational types seem to adapt more quickly to some sudden change.
    LII-Ne with strong EII tendencies, 6w7-9w1-3w4 so/sp/sx, INxP



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    Quote Originally Posted by chips and underwear View Post
    I have the exact same issue.

    In my case, it's maybe due to rationality. Irrational types seem to adapt more quickly to some sudden change.
    How about the description of judicious / decisive as quoted above?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Myst View Post
    How about the description of judicious / decisive as quoted above?
    I am more judicious than decisive, but not in the extreme.
    LII-Ne with strong EII tendencies, 6w7-9w1-3w4 so/sp/sx, INxP



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    I found this description that also describes this behavior in Ne leading types, the bolded parts are ones I relate to especially. Perhaps Myst has finally won on this debate.

    Ne as leading function in ILE (ENTp; Don Quixote) and IEE (ENFp; Huxley) - such person lives in the flow of potentialities of the external world, by the wholeness of the entire external reality: "everything is great in this world that is best of all worlds." Violation of this harmony evokes an aggressive response from him, for example, home maintenance and repairs become a cause of dissatisfaction and frustration. It can be difficult to debate or negotiate with him because he is, as if, constantly maneuvering while moving through life: "this can be that way, but also another way." Trying to clarify with him the exact terms, for example exact time and place for a meeting, can be an exercise in futility: "First I'll be at so-and-so place, then I will be elsewhere, and likely, if everything will work out in time, I'll be in the area around such-and-such hour." He does not perceive time and place as something that is permanent, as something which can not be moved. All things to him seem very approximate, vague, for the sake of the meeting he feels no need to specify his timing and whereabouts, since this will destroy the harmony and wholeness of his external worldview. If he's already running late for work and you ask him to take the trash since he is already late, this destroys this "wholeness", since it all was "already taken into account" that sometimes he may run late for work, but this "wholeness" of the worldview did not encompass a full bag of trash. These types of people live through original views and ideas on workings of external world and are conservative in that knowledge. They make an impression of being unique - no one knows what will originate in their mind in the next moment. And this love of impermanence they make a standard - it's a typical behavior for them, a constant point of attention. Those who criticize their random flow of idea, they find annoying as they can not defend their arguments, so often they surround themselves with those who agree with them and take a liking to it. They are irritated by people who initiate conflicts and scandals, even when there was a good reason for it. After all, external conflict brings the destruction of the outer harmony and "wholeness" and detracts them from their thoughts. Often like to finish something for others, but do not like to initiate, since this also upsets their sense of external harmony.
    Last edited by Muddy; 12-05-2016 at 01:34 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Muddytextures View Post
    I found this description that also describes this behavior in Ne leading types, the bolded parts are ones I relate to especially. Perhaps Myst has finally won on this debate.

    Ne as leading function in ILE (ENTp; Don Quixote) and IEE (ENFp; Huxley) - such person lives in the flow of potentialities of the external world, by the wholeness of the entire external reality: "everything is great in this world that is best of all worlds." Violation of this harmony evokes an aggressive response from him, for example, home maintenance and repairs become a cause of dissatisfaction and frustration. It can be difficult to debate or negotiate with him because he is, as if, constantly maneuvering while moving through life: "this can be that way, but also another way." Trying to clarify with him the exact terms, for example exact time and place for a meeting, can be an exercise in futility: "First I'll be at so-and-so place, then I will be elsewhere, and likely, if everything will work out in time, I'll be in the area around such-and-such hour." He does not perceive time and place as something that is permanent, as something which can not be moved. All things to him seem very approximate, vague, for the sake of the meeting he feels no need to specify his timing and whereabouts, since this will destroy the harmony and wholeness of his external worldview. If he's already running late for work and you ask him to take the trash since he is already late, this destroys this "wholeness", since it all was "already taken into account" that sometimes he may run late for work, but this "wholeness" of the worldview did not encompass a full bag of trash. These types of people live through original views and ideas on workings of external world and are conservative in that knowledge. They make an impression of being unique - no one knows what will originate in their mind in the next moment. And this love of impermanence they make a standard - it's a typical behavior for them, a constant point of attention. Those who criticize their random flow of idea, they find annoying as they can not defend their arguments, so often they surround themselves with those who agree with them and take a liking to it. They are irritated by people who initiate conflicts and scandals, even when there was a good reason for it. After all, external conflict brings the destruction of the outer harmony and "wholeness" and detracts them from their thoughts. Often like to finish something for others, but do not like to initiate, since this also upsets their sense of external harmony.
    That isn't a very good description, I recommend this one:

    http://tryukraine.com/socionics/theory/bi.shtml

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