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Thread: You all sux at -/+(negativism/positivism, not plus/minus)

  1. #41
    Serious Left-Static Negativist Eliza Thomason's Avatar
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    Ann, I just saw the video once and will look again. I need to slow down becaue I find myself asking, You explain info well in a nice step by step way.

    Now I feel a need to understand the most basic thing I should have figured out a long time ago. I was sort of waiting for it to dawn on me, but it hasn't yet. If Annisn't online or available, anyone else can answer it tht can, as it doe snot really have to do with wyat Ann already wrote.

    .Basically I think of all the types as their 4-letter names, and in order to know off-hand their 3-letter name I have to have had it memorized... I have not made any effort at memorizing though I know most of them by now. I am always looking up on the forum or the article page at this website to double check a 3-letter type to see which four letters it is, while knowing there must be some better way to know it. I have not made an attempt to memorize because I figure there must be a way to look at the four letters and know which 3 letters it is. Is there??

    So if I look at "ENFp" letters, how can I tell that it is IEE? And how can I tell its NeFI just by looking at the 4 letters? Or the three?

    For the 3 letter name, am I correct that the last letter is Extrovert or Introvert? The first letter is Intuitive, the 2nd letter is Ethical (using the term Ethical instead of the term Feeling). But how can I look at IEE and know its a "p", without the letter there??

    Can I look at "NeFi" and know that it translates to "ENFp" just by looking at those letters?

    Probably there is a pattern I could get if I looked at it enough. I thought it would dawn on me but it hasn't. So is there pattern to it?

    (somehow it seems like having better proficiency at "reading" the type codes will help me navigate the new discussions on cognitive styles).

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    Ti centric krieger's Avatar
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    positivist/negativist is a very superficial trait; more like a subtle quality than a distinction. if you have an elaborate theory of how it "works" you probably don't understand the basics of it.

    the thing to realize is that every form of positivism is associated with a complementary form of negativism and vice versa. associatively, a person's values are never positivist or negativist. they are on a superficial level Result of Process and on a deeper level J or P. the less of a match there is on J/P level, the more another persons's way of being positive or negative will grate on you. and among J types, the same goes for the degree of mismatch on Process/Result, same for among P types, etc, etc...

    so i'd say in terms of how interesting they are for explaining socionical phenomena, the hierarchy is decidedly from J/P to Result/Process to Positivist/Negativist. to lay primary emphasis on the last of these is ill advised.
    Last edited by krieger; 11-09-2013 at 03:40 PM.

  3. #43
    Mermaid with Stellar views SyrupDeGem's Avatar
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    Incidentally I have always enjoyed holographics & fractals..... in honor...



    Now this is a story all about how, my type got changed, turned upside down. Just wait for a minute and watch chatbox right there, & I'll tell how Gem became the moderator with blue hair.

    In typology central friended and praised, on the picture thread was where she spent most her days. Chilling out, selfies, relaxing all cool, And all typing some people and getting them schooled.

    When a couple of girls who were up to no good, Started annoying her & her friends in the forumhood, She got in one little flame war & got pissed off & said 'I'm moving in with that exboyfriend in the forum with the socionics toffs.

    So Gem pulls up to the forum for a year without being a hater, And yells to typocentral 'Yo creeps! Smell Ya later', Became a mod in her kingdom she was finally there, To sit on her throne as the mod with blue hair.

    InvisibruJim

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    escaping anndelise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    Ann, I just saw the video once and will look again. I need to slow down becaue I find myself asking, You explain info well in a nice step by step way.

    Now I feel a need to understand the most basic thing I should have figured out a long time ago. I was sort of waiting for it to dawn on me, but it hasn't yet. If Annisn't online or available, anyone else can answer it tht can, as it doe snot really have to do with wyat Ann already wrote.

    .Basically I think of all the types as their 4-letter names, and in order to know off-hand their 3-letter name I have to have had it memorized... I have not made any effort at memorizing though I know most of them by now. I am always looking up on the forum or the article page at this website to double check a 3-letter type to see which four letters it is, while knowing there must be some better way to know it. I have not made an attempt to memorize because I figure there must be a way to look at the four letters and know which 3 letters it is. Is there??

    So if I look at "ENFp" letters, how can I tell that it is IEE? And how can I tell its NeFI just by looking at the 4 letters? Or the three?

    For the 3 letter name, am I correct that the last letter is Extrovert or Introvert? The first letter is Intuitive, the 2nd letter is Ethical (using the term Ethical instead of the term Feeling). But how can I look at IEE and know its a "p", without the letter there??

    Can I look at "NeFi" and know that it translates to "ENFp" just by looking at those letters?

    Probably there is a pattern I could get if I looked at it enough. I thought it would dawn on me but it hasn't. So is there pattern to it?

    (somehow it seems like having better proficiency at "reading" the type codes will help me navigate the new discussions on cognitive styles).
    It helped me to think in terms of P and J, and the location of them.
    "Perceiving" elements are N and S
    "Judging" elements are F and T
    Now, while those categories (J, P) aren't necessarily socionics terms it will help as a tag for the rest of this post.

    Types can be thought of as their clubs (NF, NT, SF, ST).
    And types can be thought of as rational vs irrational. (PJ = P first so perceiver/irrational; JP = J first so judger/rational)
    So NF = NFp
    And FN = NFj
    In the three letter code, the first two letters follow similar.
    IE = NF = NFp
    EI = FN = NFj

    In the four letter code, the first letter is "extrovert" vs "introvert".
    In the three letter code, the last letter is the "extrovert" vs "introvert"
    So ENFp = (E)NF = NF(E) = I(intuitive)E(ethical)E(extrovert)
    But INFj = (I)FN = FN(I) = E(ethical)I(intuitive)I(introvert)


    Now, to figure out the ego elements:
    Four letter code requires some conversion. First, alter the letters into their PJ vs JP format.
    So: ENFp=ENF; ENFj=EFN; INFp=INF; INFj=IFN

    Second, attach the "extro/intro-version" to the first letter of the altered code.
    So: ENF=NeF; EFN=FeN; INF=NiF; IFN=FiN

    From there, follow the chart I put in the video. Static elements with static, Dynamic with dynamic.
    So NeF=NeFi; FeN=FeNi; NiF=NiFe; FiN=FiNe

    Ipas you get familiar with the patterns, the brain can do it rather quickly. Though I really don't care for the three letter code, myself, and cannot do the conversion as fast/easy. Which is why I like saying NeFi instead of ENFp or IEE.


    Edited to add:
    Oh, and for the three letter code,
    P elements are I for "intuitive" (N), and S for "sensing" (S)
    J elements are E for "ethical" (F), and L for "logical" (T)
    IEE 649 sx/sp cp

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    Mermaid with Stellar views SyrupDeGem's Avatar
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    3 letter code. The easy option.

    The first letter is either I (intuitive) Or S (sensing)... so I or S
    The second letter is either L (logical, in the four letter code is T for Thinking) or E (ethical, F for feeling in the four letter code) so L or E
    The third letter is either E (extrovert) or I (introvert) so E or I

    IEE = Intuitive Ethical Extrovert

    Tadaa

    Now this is a story all about how, my type got changed, turned upside down. Just wait for a minute and watch chatbox right there, & I'll tell how Gem became the moderator with blue hair.

    In typology central friended and praised, on the picture thread was where she spent most her days. Chilling out, selfies, relaxing all cool, And all typing some people and getting them schooled.

    When a couple of girls who were up to no good, Started annoying her & her friends in the forumhood, She got in one little flame war & got pissed off & said 'I'm moving in with that exboyfriend in the forum with the socionics toffs.

    So Gem pulls up to the forum for a year without being a hater, And yells to typocentral 'Yo creeps! Smell Ya later', Became a mod in her kingdom she was finally there, To sit on her throne as the mod with blue hair.

    InvisibruJim

  6. #46
    escaping anndelise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geminatronix View Post
    3 letter code. The easy option.

    The first letter is either I (intuitive) Or S (sensing)... so I or S
    The second letter is either L (logical, in the four letter code is T for Thinking) or E (ethical, F for feeling in the four letter code) so L or E
    The third letter is either E (extrovert) or I (introvert) so E or I

    IEE = Intuitive Ethical Extrovert

    Tadaa
    Except that only works for P types, not J types.
    IEE 649 sx/sp cp

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    @Geminatronix

    Functions:
    I => Intuition
    L => Logic
    S => Sensorics
    E => Ethics

    Extro/Intro orientation:
    E => Extraversion
    I => Introversion

    1st letter is your base function.
    2nd letter is your creative function.
    3rd letter is your extro/intro orientation.

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    Mermaid with Stellar views SyrupDeGem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by anndelise View Post
    Except that only works for P types, not J types.
    You are ofc correct, I overlooked all the J types, ops

    Quote Originally Posted by Trevor View Post
    @Geminatronix

    Functions:
    I => Intuition
    L => Logic
    S => Sensorics
    E => Ethics

    Extro/Intro orientation:
    E => Extraversion
    I => Introversion

    1st letter is your base function.
    2nd letter is your creative function.
    3rd letter is your extro/intro orientation.
    Yep apologies.

    Now this is a story all about how, my type got changed, turned upside down. Just wait for a minute and watch chatbox right there, & I'll tell how Gem became the moderator with blue hair.

    In typology central friended and praised, on the picture thread was where she spent most her days. Chilling out, selfies, relaxing all cool, And all typing some people and getting them schooled.

    When a couple of girls who were up to no good, Started annoying her & her friends in the forumhood, She got in one little flame war & got pissed off & said 'I'm moving in with that exboyfriend in the forum with the socionics toffs.

    So Gem pulls up to the forum for a year without being a hater, And yells to typocentral 'Yo creeps! Smell Ya later', Became a mod in her kingdom she was finally there, To sit on her throne as the mod with blue hair.

    InvisibruJim

  9. #49
    Serious Left-Static Negativist Eliza Thomason's Avatar
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    Thanks Ann, that explanation of the typing codes is very helpful. I am going to get paper out and practice jotting down and translating these codes til "reading" it becomes automatic.

    Next I think I need to have a fuller understanding of static/dynamic, which I can get from reading on Reinin Dichotomies, before I even try to understand Cognitive Styles. I now remeber skimming over Cognitive styles and it not really "sticking" for me.

    Let me make sure I understand these things before I go further. Right now SLE son has new Assassins creed on the big screen with stereo sound and I am going to go work on things that need doing in other rooms... (computer is here with the big TV...).. I tried ear plugs but Mom is full of questions today and I have to keep taking them out to answer her - she is stuck on her thing today called "Where are all the other people?" that I can never answer satisfactorily for her (since she can't tell me who these "other people" are) and since she does not like the answer she keeps re-asking every five minutes, and we repeat the same dialogue:

    "What people, Mom?"
    "Well Eliza Thomason"
    "I am Eliza. I am your daughter.."
    "But where are the others?"
    "What others?"

    The only thing I can do is redirect her mind by getting her occupied. I just got her stringing cheerios but that will only last so long. Then I will take her for a walk and pet peoples little dogs (She always says, "Nice kitty") and we can watch the salmon jump in the stream... If we walk long enough it will tire her and after another meal she'll nap. And hopefully she will not wake up still stuck on the "other people".

    (and I used up cheerioo-time typing this!)

    As to this, I guess I need to follow the "process" step-by-step in order to understand it, or to gain a base understanding so that I can pickup the concepts quicker. Thanks for giving me a great clear start to the process. Its really helpful.

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    Mermaid with Stellar views SyrupDeGem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    Thanks Ann, that explanation of the typing codes is very helpful. I am going to get paper out and practice jotting down and translating these codes til "reading" it becomes automatic.

    Next I think I need to have a fuller understanding of static/dynamic, which I can get from reading on Reinin Dichotomies, before I even try to understand Cognitive Styles. I now remeber skimming over Cognitive styles and it not really "sticking" for me.

    Let me make sure I understand these things before I go further. Right now SLE son has new Assassins creed on the big screen with stereo sound and I am going to go work on things that need doing in other rooms... (computer is here with the big TV...).. I tried ear plugs but Mom is full of questions today and I have to keep taking them out to answer her - she is stuck on her thing today called "Where are all the other people?" that I can never answer satisfactorily for her (since she can't tell me who these "other people" are) and since she does not like the answer she keeps re-asking every five minutes, and we repeat the same dialogue:

    "What people, Mom?"
    "Well Eliza Thomason"
    "I am Eliza. I am your daughter.."
    "But where are the others?"
    "What others?"

    The only thing I can do is redirect her mind by getting her occupied. I just got her stringing cheerios but that will only last so long. Then I will take her for a walk and pet peoples little dogs (She always says, "Nice kitty") and we can watch the salmon jump in the stream... If we walk long enough it will tire her and after another meal she'll nap. And hopefully she will not wake up still stuck on the "other people".

    (and I used up cheerioo-time typing this!)

    As to this, I guess I need to follow the "process" step-by-step in order to understand it, or to gain a base understanding so that I can pickup the concepts quicker. Thanks for giving me a great clear start to the process. Its really helpful.
    Lol I keep getting confused because you merge your socionics posts with your personal stuff and i am wondering where the link is and how socionics typing can help with Alzeimer's.

    However, in relation to that, just from personal experience and from what i have read up on. Your mother may be stuck in a particular time slot or event in time. So when she remembers Eliza, it may be a younger Eliza, hence her not recognising you as Eliza...and also she may be imaging other members of family and or friends that were around at that time or event. If you can identify around when that is it might help, the questions will keep going round in circles though... it's a pattern you will find on repeat and as it advances it will become more and more obscure. When my grandmother had advanced stages she would talk to door handles and imagined a cricket team, marque, circus and huge long queue all in a small 10x10m backyard. There were some rather frightening things too and eventually we had to get a plethura of locks on the door to stop the escape artist from adventuring out of house in the middle of the night half naked. Which caused more than a few rosy cheeks, and many more worried nights.

    As to socionics, maybe in these threads try to keep it compartmentalised. You can start plenty of threads in other subforums regarding personal stuff if you want help/advice or even just to write it all down can help, maybe start a blog?

    Of course you can carry on as you are, it just might help you keep the info seperate and absorb it better.

    Now this is a story all about how, my type got changed, turned upside down. Just wait for a minute and watch chatbox right there, & I'll tell how Gem became the moderator with blue hair.

    In typology central friended and praised, on the picture thread was where she spent most her days. Chilling out, selfies, relaxing all cool, And all typing some people and getting them schooled.

    When a couple of girls who were up to no good, Started annoying her & her friends in the forumhood, She got in one little flame war & got pissed off & said 'I'm moving in with that exboyfriend in the forum with the socionics toffs.

    So Gem pulls up to the forum for a year without being a hater, And yells to typocentral 'Yo creeps! Smell Ya later', Became a mod in her kingdom she was finally there, To sit on her throne as the mod with blue hair.

    InvisibruJim

  11. #51
    Serious Left-Static Negativist Eliza Thomason's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geminatronix View Post
    Lol I keep getting confused because you merge your socionics posts with your personal stuff and i am wondering where the link is and how socionics typing can help with Alzeimer's.

    However, in relation to that, just from personal experience and from what i have read up on. Your mother may be stuck in a particular time slot or event in time. So when she remembers Eliza, it may be a younger Eliza, hence her not recognising you as Eliza...and also she may be imaging other members of family and or friends that were around at that time or event. If you can identify around when that is it might help, the questions will keep going round in circles though... it's a pattern you will find on repeat and as it advances it will become more and more obscure. When my grandmother had advanced stages she would talk to door handles and imagined a cricket team, marque, circus and huge long queue all in a small 10x10m backyard. There were some rather frightening things too and eventually we had to get a plethura of locks on the door to stop the escape artist from adventuring out of house in the middle of the night half naked. Which caused more than a few rosy cheeks, and many more worried nights.
    Oh my gosh. Never know where this will lead. When we went to my SLI's this summer she started talking to herself in the mirror there, and she has not stopped doing that since. Still takes getting used to... (and we already lock doors - turned deadbolts around so key from the inside... child locks on cabinets, seems like living in a crazy house or obstacle course sometimes).

    Quote Originally Posted by Geminatronix View Post
    As to socionics, maybe in these threads try to keep it compartmentalised. You can start plenty of threads in other subforums regarding personal stuff if you want help/advice or even just to write it all down can help, maybe start a blog?

    Of course you can carry on as you are, it just might help you keep the info separate and absorb it better.
    You are right, I really should do this. It is a distraction to some. Must respect all types of info processing.

  12. #52
    Serious Left-Static Negativist Eliza Thomason's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JadaeRat View Post
    The take-away for this thread was to just flush out these ideas, though, and Im happy people are participating.
    Too much interest in theory to be LSE. LSEs HATE theory. DJ says so in his ESTJ/ESTP video. Sounded quite adamant about that point.

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    I can see Jadae as the conflictor of a certain EII - one that they were attracted to each other from afar but once they formed the relationship, it all fell apart...
     
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    Trying to understand all of the personal monologues between participants in this thread feels like forcing my anus to shit broken glass. I guess I lack the right flavour or quantity for 'F'.

    Could someone wake me up when we've arrived at a definitive description of positive/negativist like siuntal posted?

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    Quote Originally Posted by JadaeRat View Post
    I made a quick display for you all to see the differences in how these "work" (@hkkmr lookit me troll oh so hard )

    That's a really good picture
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    According to this, process = left and result = right, and that's the idea I get reading about the cogn. styles as well, but I could be wrong.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JadaeRat View Post
    The other thing that the chart is good for is understand process/result, cause process = holographics + vortical (have difficulty switching tasks and can form dualz) and causals + algorithmics (more easily switch tasks and can also form dualz). So, discovery vs. ez pz mode. So now we know that process types are naughty, if you read between the lines
    Um, Holographics and Vorticals are result types, not process types.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JadaeRat View Post
    "(Leftists are ILE, SEI, EIE, LSI, SEE, ILI, LSE and EII, , rightists - ESE, LII, SLE, IEI, LIE, ESI, IEE and SLI). "

    Left = result. Right = process. See how each set has a relation to +/- ?
    Nay, it's the other way around

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    Quote Originally Posted by JadaeRat View Post
    Wikisocion took it upon themselves to flip the original hypothesis on their very own, which I believe in this case was Jonathon, Expat, and Hotel Ambush.

    I am readying from actual sources, not reworks.

    The even admit to flipping them:

    "As a result of "renaming" of this dichotomy by V. Gulenko, confusion arose. In A. Augustinavichjute [2] and G. Reinin [5] this dichotomy is called "left - right" (Leftists types are ILE, SEI, EIE, LSI, SEE, ILI, LSE and EII; Rightists types are ESE, LII, SLE, IEI, LIE, ESI, IEE and SLI). We utilized in this article the more contemporary "opposite" designations of V. Gulenko and T. Prokofieva (Leftists/Result types are ESE, LII, SLE, IEI, LIE, ESI, IEE and SLI, Rightists/Process types are - ILE, SEI, EIE, LSI, SEE, ILI, LSE and EII). As the names of the attributes do not determine the attributes themselves, the changing of the names is an insignificant detail, but still mentioned in case one encounters different classifications."

    But the flip was WAS significant, which is why theyre ding dongs for taking this upon themselves to do to everyone, and why wikisocion is mostly a pet project gone chaotic.

    Essentially, the original is Reinin and the rework is not.

    "The Left – the right. The attribute reflects the fact that a type belongs to one of the two “rings of social progress.” The left "ring" is focused on the future and the potential opportunities of a situation; the right "ring" is focused on the past and on "summarizing of the results."
    It has been also noticed that the division into eight 'left' and eight 'right' types corresponds to the lifestyles. In one case ('right' types) it is collectivism, communalism, in the other ('left' types) - individualism and, in extreme cases, asceticism. During the history of mankind there have been an equal number of all of these styles of life.

    Recently I read a book by the remarkable Serbian writer, Milorad Pavic, Landscape Painted with Tea. It narrates about the monks of the Athon monastery. It turns out there is a clear distinction (among the congregation) between the so-called communals and hermits (or cenobites and idiorythmics as the author calls them). Each of the hermits had a cell and even a small hermitage; others lived together and had everything in common. These two tendencies have been parallel in history; just at times one or the other prevailed. The author of the novel speaks about this particular attribute, about the differences of the communal and the hermit styles of life.

    These are definitely two different ways of life: there are people who can work only in a team, but others, on the contrary, work alone and alone only in the calm of an office. During the experiments the collectivists are quick to hear and understand the other members of the group" -Reinin

    Fun times.
    Wikisocion is saying it uses Gulenko's and Prokofieva's version.
    Gulenko did up the cognitive styles, right?
    Gulenko has Holographics and Vorticals as result types.

    But it is interesting the difference. I wonder why Gulenko and Prokofieva changed it.
    Personally, I think "left-right" was a stupid term to have used. I would have to do more research to figure out how much of the initial meaning was altered.
    IEE 649 sx/sp cp

  21. #61
    escaping anndelise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JadaeRat View Post
    The rework may be correct, however. I am unsure, since both have arguments, but I do think that maybe causal/algorithmic have a more linear (A to B to C to D.... : A through Z) way....

    ehhhhhhhh...

    Both descriptions can work, really. I think it may be the word usage that is really killing the meaning of what the origin meant.
    They both have an X to Y to Z approach, just slightly different. (Structural vs Dynamic)

    http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...Victor-Gulenko
    According to Gulenko, Causal has a more formal logic approach, using causal connectives like "because", "therefore", "consequently" (causal conjunctions).

    Algorithmic has a more predictive branching approach, like if X happens, then Y will happen, but if not X, then Z will.
    IEE 649 sx/sp cp

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    Left Right are the same as Right Left. The Russians flipped the words... between different authors. They did not flip the concept. Thus, when left meant right, the following types were left: ILE, SEI, EIE, LSI, SEE, ILI, LSE and EII; but when right meant right (the current Wikisocion form) these types are right (ILE, SEI, EIE, LSI, SEE, ILI, LSE and EII; the same list that was left.)

    That is confusing, so I would recommend dropping the terms right left to use process result.
     
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    Do you realize what Socionics is? It is a profiling system. You are profiling somebody through observations. These observations are, for the most part, fairly easy to do - such as Asking / Declaring. You do not have to find every trait, just enough to find their type and then their (projected) intertype relations.

    Positive Negative is really simple, A positive person basically receives information and runs with it. A negative person basically looks for contradictions. I think you got that far so that is good enough. The goal is the sociological (quarta) and social psychological (intertype relations) - the goal is not the psychological itself.
     
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    Humanist Beautiful sky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saberstorm View Post
    Do you realize what Socionics is? It is a profiling system. You are profiling somebody through observations. These observations are, for the most part, fairly easy to do - such as Asking / Declaring. You do not have to find every trait, just enough to find their type and then their (projected) intertype relations.

    Positive Negative is really simple, A positive person basically receives information and runs with it. A negative person basically looks for contradictions. I think you got that far so that is good enough. The goal is the sociological (quarta) and social psychological (intertype relations) - the goal is not the psychological itself.
    I have a stick for that
    -
    Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
    Enneagram 5 (wings either 4 or 6)?


    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

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