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Thread: Official Magic and Esotericism Thread

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    Default Official Magic and Esotericism Thread

    Let's have a more official thread for discussion of such matters, shall we?

    To start with a more familiar subject, Jung himself was really, in essence, more of an esotericist than a scientist. His "Red Book" is especially a masterpiece of esotericism:



    “My soul, where are you? Do you hear me? I speak, I call you - are you there? I have returned, I am here again. I have shaken the dust of all the lands from my feet, and I have come to you, I am with you. After long years of long wandering, I have come to you again. Should I tell you everything I have seen, experienced, and drunk in? Or do you not want to hear about all the noise of life and the world? But one thing you must know: the one thing I have learned is that one must live this life. Do you still know me? How long the separation lasted! Everything has become so different. And how did I find you? How strange my journey was! What words should I use to tell you on what twisted paths a good star has guided me to you? Give me your hand, my almost forgotten soul. How warm the joy at seeing you again, you long disavowed soul. Life has led me back to you. Let us thank the life I have lived for all the happy and all the sad hours, for every joy, for every sadness. My soul, my journey should continue with you. I will wander with you and ascend to my solitude.”

    “You open the gates of the soul to let the dark flood of chaos flow into your order and meaning. If you marry the ordered to the chaos you produce the divine child, the supreme meaning beyond meaning and meaninglessness.”

    Also essential, his "7 Sermons to the Dead":
    http://www.gnosis.org/library/7Sermons.htm

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    Two sister blogs that I have learned much from:
    http://www.gornahoor.net/
    http://www.meditationsonthetarot.com/

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    This site provides a curriculum for students of the Crowleyite A.'. A.'.:
    http://outercol.org/htmldoc/curriculum.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jacobus View Post
    Jung himself was really, in essence, more of an esotericist than a scientist. His "Red Book" is especially a masterpiece of esotericism:
    He did personal inner exploring. As we all should do at some point in life. That doesnt make a person an "esoteric"

    Jung explicitly stated that he had to make sense of all these random inner images. That he needed to explain and analyze the mind. Not just for himself, but to help others. That this was his task.

    His life work was scientific. A very devoted psychiatrist
    Last edited by Tallmo; 03-05-2018 at 01:33 PM.
    The decisive thing is not the reality of the object, but the reality of the subjective factor, i.e. the primordial images, which in their totality represent a psychic mirror-world. It is a mirror, however, with the peculiar capacity of representing the present contents of consciousness not in their known and customary form but in a certain sense sub specie aeternitatis, somewhat as a million-year old consciousness might see them.

    (Jung on Si)

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    Jung thought of himself as an empiricist and a scientist, but in reality was more of a rationalist and science skeptic with some very superstitious beliefs. I'm not sure he understood what science was, but liked to rail against materialism and scientism( https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Scientism ), which he believed was dogmatic science. Most people that misunderstand science are ignorant of its intellectual history and why it holds the philosophical positions it does. Science is based on methodological naturalism, rationalism, materialism, and empiricism, something Jung cherry picked to support his ideas. This wasn't helped by the fact that he was spiritually interested in the occult, mysticism, and gnosticism.

    Now a scientist would take a hypothesis, like the Collective Unconscious and try and test it to see if it was valid, not try and use his notes of personal exploration and biases to support his personal beliefs. The Collective Unconscious is pseudoscientific and borders on superstition. He posited that there is a realm that held and transmitted information from one generation to the next and aided in his belief in synchronicity, without any theory as to how or why this is the case, or how it physically connected to the natural world(This opened the New Age can of worms that has had disastrous effects on scientific progress)Note: If it is something that can actually influence the natural world, then it can be observed and measured in some way; there should be a relationship, a correlation. You can't study something that isn't observable, or beyond the senses, and has no affect on the natural world. Once it becomes observable it is not longer supernatural, but falls into naturalism. Claiming to do so is beyond science and it is the opposite of empiricism. Many hypotheses are derived by intuition, but they are based on naturalism. Intuition itself isn't something that is fully understood yet, and Jung offers some insight, but that does not confirm any unified psychological theory of his.

    The Collective Unconscious contained the basis for his psychological types and primordial images. Now a scientist would observe the mind and gather data about how it works and draw conclusions based on the data, then formulate a theory based observations. What is the cause of these observations? How can I test it? I do I know? Jung didn't formally study science or the scientific method and the mind is very difficult to study empirically. One because it is subjective, and two, because it is difficult to control for. It is not impossible though, and neuroscientists have really provided very valuable insights into the inner workings of our consciousness. Much more than Jung has done. His theories do not fit with the evidence we do have today. With each passing year, the observations support the hypothesis that the mind is a product of our brain, which has evolved over time from other species. We are long way from fully understanding it, but the future of the knowledge is based on empiricism, not guru style personal insight that considered "equally valid". Jung "studied" the "psyche". Scientists study consciousness.

    Much of Jung's work was borrowed from the western esoteric tradition; this is well known. He stood in contrast to Positivism, which held that knowledge is ultimately derived by the senses and is reducible to laws about the universe based on the scientific method (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positivism ). This is not a popular position to hold on this forum or any Jungian community, which sees itself as an alternative to reality.

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    Can this be the Official Magic, Esotericism, Shamanism and Entheogens Thread?

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    Quote Originally Posted by kalinoche View Post
    Can this be the Official Magic, Esotericism, Shamanism and Entheogens Thread?
    If one wishes, I suppose.

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    I've been interested in Magic and the Esoteric, but I don't know where to start. The topic is really...broad.

    For the record I am into the Left Hand Path of the occult. I think that is important to lay down. First things first.

    The LHP isn't about being evil and not necessarily Satanism. There are many definitions floating around out there, but generally they place an emphasis on the fact the LHP values individuality over the group/society, and defies generally accepted concepts of good and evil. Challenging accepted concepts of good and evil doesn't necessarily mean using Satan as a symbol; but it can, in places where Christianity is predominant. Hence the association of the LHP with Satanism and also Luciferianism (the two aeren't the same thing).

    Personally, I believe that in our society, in 2018, the moral discourse is no longer held by Christianity or conventional religions but by social justice warriors. I don't want to bring politics into this but you have to admit things like feminism hold the moral discourse, at least where I live. It is greater blasphemy to declare you are pro-life than to make fun of Jesus...hence why alot of people who want to be adverserial nowadays declare themselves Christians to piss of the SJWs. Since these things are changing fast due to the advent of the internet, not everyone picks up on it.

    But I also think that one's beliefs need to be more than a reaction/response to something external. It needs to be something deeper. I don't really know what my beliefs are for the moment, I don't really believe things without some kind of proof, so I don't think in terms of beliefs and non-belief. Edit (03/12/2018): Btw I'm pretty far from a Christian, the whole point of this was to say that declaring yourself Christian as a way to piss of sjws is the wrong way to deal with the problem of political correctness. Keep your independance of mind.

    I have been interested in the Temple of Set and their concept of Aeonic Words...to get a good idea of what those are, check out the writting of Don Webb (former High Priest of the ToS).

    A good place to start is Webb's essay Xeper: the Eternal Word of Set: https://xeper.org/pub/pub_dw_xeper.html

    Edit: Another thing I got from the ToS's philosophy is the notion that the individual is separate from the cosmos. Typically, most spiritual traditions emphasize a "re-connection" (the word "religio" where we derive religion, means re-connection) to nature, the cosmos, God, the universe, the collective unconscious, whatever it may be. I view the LHP as firmly opposed to any kind of re-connection to anything. Where Laveyan Satanism underlines man's carnal or biological nature, Setianism views man as a Being capable of gaining immortality apart from external factors like biology or the universe. I don't know myself, though, if such is attainable - but what is there to lose trying?

    There is much more I could say, but I think I'll stop there for now. That's already alot, I think. And it was kind of incohernet and jumbled, but like I said the topic is so broad, I felt like laying down my own thoughts on the subject.
    Last edited by WVBRY; 03-12-2018 at 03:09 PM.

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    Some beautiful Tarot aesthetics pt. 1


    Strength



    Queen of Wands



    The Fool



    The Tower




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    pt. 2

    Justice



    Empress



    Eight of Cups


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    "Magic and esotericism" doesn't really mean anything without a context. The pictures are cool though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by entelecheia View Post
    "Magic and esotericism" doesn't really mean anything without a context. The pictures are cool though.
    Kabbalah, alchemy, tarot, Gnosticism, tantra, Thelema, Gurdjieff, so on and so forth.

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    "We men have one book in common which points to God. Each has it within himself, which is the priceless Name of God. Its letters are the flames of His love, which He out of His heart in the priceless Name of Jesus has revealed in us. Read these letters in your hearts and spirits and you have books enough. All the writings of the children of God direct you unto that one book, for therein lie all the treasures of wisdom. … This book is Christ in you." - Jakob Böhme

    http://jacobboehmeonline.com/yahoo_s....157154135.pdf

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    @Nebula

    I have an image in my mind when I think of the collective unconscious, the scene from A Space Oddity where a group of monkey-like hominids throw a bone in the air (which then becomes a spaceship).
    I have this image in my mind because the collective unconscious stems from that archaic past, and we are what we are even thanks to those monkey-like hominids.

    When we repeat (in a very scientific scope) that humanity is actually animalistic, because we are biologically animals, we can’t forget the time when humans were really monkey-like.
    A good part of our biology is still influenced by the survival dynamics that those stages of evolution required to monkey-like humans to possess.
    This substratum, that lasted way longer than the civilization of humanity, didn’t disappear, but came to shape the deepest layers of our biology.
    Our instincts, our dreams, our fears, all objects that Freud readily categorized as sexual impulses, owe a good deal at this archaic biological setup.
    This is what Jung called instead collective subconscious.

    Back to Jung.
    Saying that Jung is not scientific would be like saying that Aristotle or Galileo weren’t scientific. It's unfair.
    Jung “discovered” the collective subconscious empirically, by noticing that his patients, despite class, despite geographic provenience, all dreamed of the same objects. And there it started.
    Please don’t blame Jung for not having had the right tools to scan the brain, that’s nonsense. The tools to scan the brain didn’t exist when Jung operated.
    Jung was surrounded by an equipe of anthropologists, scientists, and other key intellectual figures, in support of his theories.
    The Nobel prize W. Pauli helped him develop his synchronicity theory, that was in line with the quantum discovery and the relativity of those same years.

    Let’s not deprive science of the right to be often influenced by intuition, because that’s all genius is about, to see things beyond their appearance, or the power of imagination, is a strength that both the arts and the sciences share (I’m not talking of socionics intuition here).
    Even Einstein developed his theories without a direct proof, even black holes and new planets got discovered before their sight, are they any less scientific?

    Back to the occult.
    Did you know that Newton himself was an astrologer, and that he developed most of his ideas thanks to the aid provided by astro-logical thinking?
    Does this make him any less scientific, or takes away the force of his assertions, of which our sensual world is still made of? I don’t think so.

    There are still so many things unknown in the Universe, and the brain is just one of them, as well as a Universe on its own.

    lol A Space ODDITY, sorry peeps... I'm keeping it there for the lols
    Last edited by ooo; 03-07-2018 at 07:45 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chae View Post
    The Fool
    I like After Tarot version




    Mostly is thought as the most mysterious card - "High Priestess" card. I think as such - "The Fool". It has "0" number - what means indifinite possibilities. It's true magic card - the pure magic without any limits of mind or else.
    Soon there will be 1 April - Fool's Day. It's known as about joking. But what is the joking itself? - It's about paradoxes, what show our mind as not absolute. And understanding of this makes us sad? No! Humans laugh and get pleasure from this. It's complete magical ritual - mind freedom + inner satisfaction.

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    Quote Originally Posted by entelecheia View Post
    "Magic and esotericism" doesn't really mean anything without a context. The pictures are cool though.


    Yeah yeah, I've been thinking that too It only stated it's for discussion, so hm... probably random and open enough for everyone to participate, or just Jung commentary is needed Well anything that we haven't touched upon in our derailed Astrology threads Heh I have more tarot images, just ask me for more and I'll be yer dealer.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jacobus View Post
    Kabbalah, alchemy, tarot, Gnosticism, tantra, Thelema, Gurdjieff, so on and so forth.



    Quote Originally Posted by Chae View Post


    Yeah yeah, I've been thinking that too It only stated it's for discussion, so hm... probably random and open enough for everyone to participate, or just Jung commentary is needed Well anything that we haven't touched upon in our derailed Astrology threads Heh I have more tarot images, just ask me for more and I'll be yer dealer.
    The problem with that grouping is not all the people who like those things would even necessarily consider them "magic and esotericism." I mean tantra is a traditional part of Buddhism. Someone who practices that isn't necessarily going to identify it as being the same kind of thing as Gurdjieff or even Gnosticism. I can't think of a better title for the thread though so we might as well just leave it. It saves the astrology threads from various other alternative spirituality and supernatural stuff at least.

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    I suppose this should go here from there:

    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    I think it is possible to curse someone by triggering their subconscious causing either them or myself to manifest a self fulfilling prophecy.
    I'd say - it's impossible to trigger in other one until his unconscious will agree to do this. Those curses are more a deal - you show other ways to achieve higher goals for that human. This may include a suffering offer. This follows from the assumption about _own_ karma.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    Let's not get technical about this as many will not understand the "agreement" aspect and it makes some people feel victimized to suggest such a thing.
    I wanted to calm those ones who are too superstitious. They can't get a "curse" just because, but only for something better or other in their life. No one can _really_ harm them. Real problems gets the one who wished them bad.
    Did someone saw happy esoteric which practice black rituals? Or which follows own egocentric tasks? In 1st case they harm own life. And in 2nd case they mostly make changes (timeflow shifts) which are compensated in the borders of their karma. Seems the reason why magic is not approbated by religions, for them it's an illusion.

    > IOW, your concept of how it works comes off as religious belief

    conclusion based on karma belief
    monotheism rejects the existence of chaos in our reality, and hence we live with highest justice

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    Can the annoying rational people please leave. Your rationality is annoying and missing the points.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Avebury View Post
    I've been interested in Magic and the Esoteric, but I don't know where to start. The topic is really...broad.

    For the record I am into the Left Hand Path of the occult. I think that is important to lay down. First things first.

    The LHP isn't about being evil and not necessarily Satanism. There are many definitions floating around out there, but generally they place an emphasis on the fact the LHP values individuality over the group/society, and defies generally accepted concepts of good and evil. Challenging accepted concepts of good and evil doesn't necessarily mean using Satan as a symbol; but it can, in places where Christianity is predominant. Hence the association of the LHP with Satanism and also Luciferianism (the two aeren't the same thing).

    Personally, I believe that in our society, in 2018, the moral discourse is no longer held by Christianity or conventional religions but by social justice warriors. I don't want to bring politics into this but you have to admit things like feminism hold the moral discourse, at least where I live. It is greater blasphemy to declare you are pro-life than to make fun of Jesus...hence why alot of people who want to be adverserial nowadays declare themselves Christians to piss of the SJWs. Since these things are changing fast due to the advent of the internet, not everyone picks up on it.
    So if the LHP becomes predominant, its members will be forced to oppose it? That's the very definition of self-defeating.

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    pro abortion doesnt equal "against life". the freedom of disposing of one's body as one pleases is above genders, it endorses both parties to a greater consciousness, in that some actions (like having a baby) have no second thought, and require a couple to change their lives forever, not only a woman.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush View Post
    So if the LHP becomes predominant, its members will be forced to oppose it? That's the very definition of self-defeating.
    The LHP cannot become predominant in society, as the economy of spiritually hardworking, persevering, creative individuals, (as opposed to most people who are content to follow on a spiritual level, which will always be most people) doesn't allow it.

    Not sure why you're being so dismissive or antagonistic, I don't think you're genuinely interested in learning about the LHP, but I will be willing to answer your questions anyways to the best of my ability.
    Last edited by WVBRY; 03-09-2018 at 10:40 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush View Post
    So if the LHP becomes predominant, its members will be forced to oppose it?
    They'll force the opposite philosophy for the most (such they'd serve them) and will leave the egocentrism for the minority as secret one, and will follow only surface side of sheeps' philosophy. Nothing new.

    > That's the very definition of self-defeating.

    of social segregation

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    Quote Originally Posted by ooo View Post
    pro abortion doesnt equal "against life". the freedom of disposing of one's body as one pleases is above genders, it endorses both parties to a greater consciousness, in that some actions (like having a baby) have no second thought, and require a couple to change their lives forever, not only a woman.
    Who are you responding to?

    I said "pro-life" because that is how people who oppose abortion, in some cases or in all, define themselves.

    "Pro-choice" is how people who believe in abortion define themselves.

    I used the term "pro-life" because that is how people who hold that position define themselves. I would have used "pro-choice" to describe the other side of the debate because that is how they define themselves. Trying to remain neutral in how I present the issue since I feel it's secondary to the topic of the thread.

    I've no firm opinion on this issue tbh, I see good points on both sides fwiw. Both pro-choicers and secular pro-lifers have decent arguments, sometimes it's not as easy as being for or against something out of partisanship.

    The crux of the debate is a misunderstanding of the other's position, or at least an ingornance of it: pro-choice people aeren't opposed to life and pro-life people aeren't opposed to choice.

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    js

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    @Avebury if what you're talking about has anything to do with Satanism, I know all I need to know about it. The name says enough.

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    Quote Originally Posted by whodat View Post
    Can the annoying rational people please leave. Your rationality is annoying and missing the points.
    you're on annoyingrationalpeople.info. I don't think that's going to happen just by wishing. Be the change you wish to see in the world! If you can dream it, you can do it! The future belongs to those who believe in the beauty of their dreams! Shoot for the moon, and land among the stars! entelecheia for 16t President 2016!

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    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush View Post
    @Avebury if what you're talking about has anything to do with Satanism, I know all I need to know about it. The name says enough.
    I doubt you know anything about the LHP or Satanism.

    If by Satanism, you mean worshipping a red guy with horns and a pitchfork, obviously I'm not talking about Satanism.

    If by Satanism, you mean choosing a symbol of opposition to the status quo, which in a Judeo-Christian sociey would be Satan, then yes I am talking about Satanism. However, I don't label myself as a Satanist, as the symbol is too limited to the context of said Judeo-Christian values.

    So you see, by digging your head in the sand and refusing to learn anything about a topic, you reveal your ignorance on this topic. Saying "the name says enough" really shows you don't know enough.

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    @Avebury you're making a lot of assumptions there.

    Satanism is the worship or serving of Satan (who is not "a red guy with horns and a pitchfork"). To many he is more than just a mere symbol.

    I totally agree with you that "one's beliefs need to be more than a reaction/response to something external. It needs to be something deeper."
    But then you say "I don't really know what my beliefs are for the moment, I don't really believe things without some kind of proof, so I don't think in terms of beliefs and non-belief."
    so I'm guessing you haven't found that "something" yet.

    This is similar to "atheism" which holds no positive beliefs about the world, although it is usually coupled with other, more positive beliefs like materialism.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Avebury View Post
    The LHP cannot become predominant in society, as the economy of spiritually hardworking, persevering, creative individuals, (as opposed to most people who are content to follow on a spiritual level, which will always be most people) doesn't allow it.

    Not sure why you're being so dismissive or antagonistic, I don't think you're genuinely interested in learning about the LHP, but I will be willing to answer your questions anyways to the best of my ability.
    What have you created or persevered in? If you talk the talk but don't walk the walk you're more like a self-hating "right-hand path" person. But hey, at least you have superior values on a conscious level.

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    btw, I see nothing valuable in LHP, Satanism or Luciferianism if all they do is "going against the crowd" of Christianity, at least Christ was a compassionate, good beyond himself, selfless person. Lucifer was a dick and just cared for himself and his glory. Why not worship Trump then? At least he's real.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Avebury View Post
    If by Satanism, you mean choosing a symbol of opposition to the status quo, which in a Judeo-Christian sociey would be Satan
    In Christianity the Satan is the "symbol" of opposition to God, more concretely to love to God and his creation (which is his will - to world, humanity, life). It's the symbol of egocentrism or radical individualism, where a person loves no one. Also this leads to hate, as without loving others - they become just a competitors which you need to control, such you get the passion for _individual_ power. Also Satanism is the death's cult.
    If you think other about Satanism - do logical consequences of total egocentrism.

    > Saying "the name says enough" really shows you don't know enough.

    It's old philosophy of individualism. Plus common magic mess in specific decorations. He means there is nothing new for him. It was discussed for centuries and more, indeed. Under different names. In economy it's known as liberalism, for example.

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    Ok, lots of reactions here.

    @thehotelambush

    Satanism is the worship or serving of Satan (who is not "a red guy with horns and a pitchfork"). To many he is more than just a mere symbol.
    There are various definitions of Satanism by people who call themselves Satanists.

    You have modern or Laveyan Satanists who are athiests and quiet cynical ones at that. They believe Satan is a symbol of rebellion in a Judeo-Christian society. To them, he represents the carnal, but also the just nature of man, of humans able to love their friends and hate their enemies. The founding text of Laveyan Satanism is Anton Szandor Lavey's The Satanic Bible.

    Then you have actual devil worshippers, who I believe call their belief system diabolatry. From what I have heard from them on occult forums they worship the devil with the intent of becoming like him. It is not clear what they mean by becoming like him, since it isn't clear how they see him. Probably as a symbol of power and individualism.

    I'm not gonna get into more detail as Satanism as such is not really my area of interest.

    I apologize if I making assumptions, it's not my intent, my intent is to give out accurate information regarding the LHP, since there is alot of misinformation going around.

    @entelecheia

    What have you created or persevered in? If you talk the talk but don't walk the walk you're more like a self-hating "right-hand path" person. But hey, at least you have superior values on a conscious level.
    Good question, and a fair point.

    I think I've perservered in my goals in life, and created some works of art and writing along the way, I don't claim my work in life is finished, far from it. I'm still searching for my purpose, though.

    I don't claim myself to be a Lord of the LHP, that would be preposterous. Being a Lord of the LHP is an ideal, obviously humans, all humans, are flawed and fall short of ideals though. My comment about people who perservere and create is is applicable to many people in history, but all of them were flawed. What I meant was that the LHP is not for everyone since it requires alot of self-surpassing activity. Anyone would be a fool to think it is as easy as making claims, mine or anyone else's over the internet. I really have nothing to prove, since this is the internet and I could be anybody for all you know, my only intent is to inform. I will provide sources (books, links, articles) when necessary, just so people can refer to them and not just take my word.

    @ooo

    btw, I see nothing valuable in LHP, Satanism or Luciferianism if all they do is "going against the crowd" of Christianity, at least Christ was a compassionate, good beyond himself, selfless person.
    What's so good about the crowd of Christianity? You can believe what you want about Christ, his church has hardly always been compassionate, especially to thsoe with different beliefs.

    Lucifer was a dick and just cared for himself and his glory.


    This is only one side of the story. Nobody asked "Lucifer" for his opinion, they just needed a bad guy.

    Why not worship Trump then? At least he's real.
    LOL. I can't even.

    Also, I don't worship any deity, Lucifer, Christ, Set or whatever.

    I don't mean any disrespect but this ignorance of nuance itself shows a lack of respect - you are not paying attention. Where did I say I worshipped another being?

    @Sol

    In Christianity the Satan is the "symbol" of opposition to God, more concretely to love to God and his creation (which is his will - to world, humanity, life). It's the symbol of egocentrism or radical individualism, where a person loves no one. Also this leads to hate, as without loving others - they become just a competitors which you need to control, such you get the passion for _individual_ power. Also Satanism is the death's cult.
    If you think other about Satanism - do logical consequences of total egocentrism.
    Again - you are seeing things only from the Christian persepctive.

    What you are describing sounds like the really immature forms of Satanism, who call themselves LHP but have no wisdom or magic to go along with it.

    It sucks people have such a false impression of the LHP. Laveyan Satanism, which I consider really adolescent in its ideas and presentation, has much, much more maturity than what you are describing.

    It's old philosophy of individualism. Plus common magic mess in specific decorations. He means there is nothing new for him. It was discussed for centuries and more, indeed. Under different names. In economy it's known as liberalism, for example.
    Sure, the philosophy of individualism isn't new, but there is nuance to any philosophy. The idea of individualsim, like any idea, needs to be re-articulated as the cultural matrix in which people hear words such as Thelema and Xeper changes, therefore the ideas and concepts need to adapt to the challenges of their time.



    Also, for excellent, accurate sources on the LHP, see the following books:

    Lords of the Left-Hand Path, by Stephen E. Flowers

    Uncle Setnakt's Essential Guide to the Left-Hand Path, by Don Webb

    Those books I have found to be really well-researched and informative on the subject from serious practicioners who have much more experience than I do, lol.
    Last edited by WVBRY; 03-09-2018 at 08:09 PM.

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    TIL liberalism is made my Satan

    Hail Satan for taking us out of feudalism

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    I think it's implicit really, if you don't worship Satan but follow ways that are just against Christianity for the sake of it, well, that's establishing yourself as better than it all... what our society actually is today : ) individualism to the max aka Trump and all the racism around the world

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    Quote Originally Posted by ooo View Post
    I think it's implicit really, if you don't worship Satan but follow ways that are just against Christianity for the sake of it, well, that's establishing yourself as better than it all... what our society actually is today : ) individualism to the max aka Trump and all the racism around the world
    Wait, how is discriminating based on what racial group someone belongs to individualist in the slightest? Are we back to blaming Trump on Romanticism? I thought the entire world already agreеd that Trump was the guy with the dead albatross on his head...

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    Quote Originally Posted by entelecheia View Post
    Wait, how is discriminating based on what racial group someone belongs to individualist in the slightest? Are we back to blaming Trump on Romanticism? I thought the entire world already agreеd that Trump was the guy with the dead albatross on his head...
    how does it not? if you favor your own individual economy excluding the rest of the world from the games, and at the same time forbid them any right to even participate... well that's just a quite individualistic approach, even if you proclaim that you want the betterment of your nation. clear discrepancy of how what someone claims/behaves like does not equal their essence.

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    OOO, You're conflating ALOT of things here.

    Just sayin'.

    Quote Originally Posted by entelecheia View Post
    Wait, how is discriminating based on what racial group someone belongs to individualist in the slightest? Are we back to blaming Trump on Romanticism? I thought the entire world already agreеd that Trump was the guy with the dead albatross on his head...
    Racism is clearly a collectivistic goal, not individualistic.

    Even if you argue someone like Trump is individualistic in how he asserts himself, hell I'm not calling Trump a dictator because he clearly hasn't established himself as one, but even actual dictators like Mao, ******, Stalin, Erdogan, etc could only be considered individualstic from a narrow pov. Mainly that they asserted themselves as individuals, but they also deprived every other person of their individuality. That isn't the individualism of the more mature version of the LHP.

    If some people insist on conflating the LHP with racism, as well as economic domination of the world, which isn't exactly the same thing as racism but I don't think nuance matters to some people, they're basically painting everything they don't like with broad strokes and generalizing.

    Noone is advocating "individualism to the max" and going full Ayn Rand or Max Stirner, there's no need to do that.
    Last edited by WVBRY; 03-10-2018 at 04:17 AM.

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    Yeah I'm guilty of that of conflagrating so many things, you're right. But I did it trying to highlight some ridiculousness... now you said that church itslef is not JC, and I agree and it's one of the reasons why I'm not a christian myself. But I grew up with the teachings and I know what aim they portray, despite the "do as we say and not as we do" that is a very human thing and involves all dictatorships and normal political admins.... I mean what's the whole message behind LHP, Lucifer or Satan? Individuality, reaching one's satisfaction, often not caring of what the world around you wants... this is what I was complaining about.

    Now for example, the Magnum Opus of Alchemy had a similar scope, supported by gnosticism, and it's good if thanks to some occult doctrine one gets a different view of official history and whatnot, but even at the core of alchemical teachings stood a self betterment that inglobed everything, did not separate. The "as above so below" is one of the fundations of gnosticism, and it connects, doesn't divide as an individualist egomaniac world wants to suggest...

    Pick your religions wisely, that's all I'm saying... IDK

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    Quote Originally Posted by ooo View Post
    Yeah I'm guilty of that of conflagrating so many things, you're right. But I did it trying to highlight some ridiculousness... now you said that church itslef is not JC, and I agree and it's one of the reasons why I'm not a christian myself. But I grew up with the teachings and I know what aim they portray, despite the "do as we say and not as we do" that is a very human thing and involves all dictatorships and normal political admins.... I mean what's the whole message behind LHP, Lucifer or Satan? Individuality, reaching one's satisfaction, often not caring of what the world around you wants... this is what I was complaining about.

    Now for example, the Magnum Opus of Alchemy had a similar scope, supported by gnosticism, and it's good if thanks to some occult doctrine one gets a different view of official history and whatnot, but even at the core of alchemical teachings stood a self betterment that inglobed everything, did not separate. The "as above so below" is one of the fundations of gnosticism, and it connects, doesn't divide as an individualist egomaniac world wants to suggest...

    Pick your religions wisely, that's all I'm saying... IDK
    It's ok, I think I get where you're coming from, I'm just trying to point out that individualism doesn't have to be about ignoring others or being an egomaniac. Obviously you have people like that, but there are also others who tend to freak out when you say individualism, as if it was all about hating others and and whatnot...in my experience there are mature and immature forms of individualism or LHP.

    Even the mature forms of the LHP are not for everyone though, most people aeren't really attracted to it and that's how it should be, if everyone was the spiritual equivalent of a Magellan or Columbus (explorers), humanity would explode, lol.

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