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Thread: A hot take on transgender ideology (and gender ideology)

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    I doubt it's just a fad. People have said the same thing about being gay and it's kind of stupid. Yeah, people really choose to be misunderstood as deviants, discriminated against in society for eons- often times murdered by insecure people who can't handle their own attractions, scapegoated for all the world's ills etc. all because it's trendy to do so. I agree the media can be "too PC" with the gay/trans thing many times (probably because they are aiming for 'shock value' and they are trying to purposefully rile up some ignorant breeders for ratings) but come on now...

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    Quote Originally Posted by xerxe View Post
    Well, I disagree, and I don't think that we're going to convince each other, so I'll just summarize my position.

    * There is no satisfying answer to this question because "identity" has no singular definition: sometimes it's something intrinsic; other times it's something that's completely acquired. People cherry pick and apply the analogies that conform to their preexisting beliefs or their political affiliations.
    I think the question is, should we treat abstract ideas and entities just as real as physical entities? Is "masculine" just as real as "male"? I would say yes.

    If biological sex determined everything, then there's no point in talking about psychology. We might as well as biologically determine everything. But an abstract computer program can affect the hardware in the physical world, and potentially, it can start to change its own hardware or it can affect things in the physical world.

    The neo-Darwinian, "selfish gene" theory imply that the body is nothing but a vessel for the gene to carry and replicate itself. The mammal is mostly a visual being, and so it must rely on visual or some other sensual markers in order for it to mate. It does not know what "masculine" or "feminine" means. But we humans know what "masculine" or "feminine" mean without relying on any sensual markers. We can abstractly know and understand that just from reading texts, for example. We become attracted to people chatting online or reading fictional books.

    The Meme evolution theory imply that abstract memes are influenced by evolution, which makes the evolution of abstract ideas just as real as the evolution of physical objects. I would say that "male" and "female" are simply physical evolutions, and "masculine" and "feminine" are abstract, memetic evolutions that occurred within a complex social society, and it co-evolved with the biological sex.

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    I wish the questions of whether transgenderism is a legitimate human experience and how to appropriately handle things like sports were more distinct.

    I have concerns about the safety and (yea) personal comfort of cis women. But I'm not about to dictate anyone's mind. (If you're thinking about typology disagreements when you read this, I'm scornful about how pathetic you are.)

    I think it's less likely that parents are 'pressuring kids to be transgender' and likelier that they are presenting options, you know? You could be the gender you were born with, or this cool, alternative brand. (:

    Is there science involving totally different male and female brains? Maybe that's a blow against feminism? There would be a certain comfort in being excused for my emotionality and receiving acknowledgement for how difficult a desk job is for me, lol

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    @aciaradh

    Jesus Christ, this isn't academia. You don't have to try to impress anyone. When you write unclearly you invite unclear thoughts.

    Yes, gender expression is a social construct. So what?

    Additionally, as a non-binary person myself, I reject your somewhat reductive approach in saying “this is what Trans people are like/this is what the Trans community believes.” Not all Trans people “demand” that others see them as their gender, and if you demand that they should not be treated/viewed as their gender then that is likewise a violent act. However, I also reject the notion that non-Trans people cannot hold their own opinions or realize to a large extent what it’s like to be transgender (insofar as that experience is uniform, which ofc it is not).. and so I don’t want to insist that your approach is problematic specifically as a result of that. But your insistence on the opposite (that Trans people are an attention-seeking, abusive monolith) strips agency and self-determination in a fashion similar to how the former approach would, and fails to recognize the humanity and nuance present in Trans people's identities.


    I'm making a generalization that's true for about 9 in 10 at least. Words aren't violence, and if writing words on an Internet forum can strip people of "agency and self-determination" then I don't know what to tell you.

    I’m still in the process of engaging with feminist, structuralist, and poststructuralist theory at the moment


    Here's some friendly advice: stop.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ashlesha View Post
    Is there science involving totally different male and female brains? Maybe that's a blow against feminism? There would be a certain comfort in being excused for my emotionality and receiving acknowledgement for how difficult a desk job is for me, lol
    Why is being emotional something you feel should be excused? Do you wish you weren't? If not, why be ashamed?


    I'm also curious if you could elaborate further why men and women having different brains would be a blow to feminism.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FreelancePoliceman View Post
    Why is being emotional something you feel should be excused? Do you wish you weren't? If not, why be ashamed?
    That's an interesting question because it prompts me to encounter the fact that yea, i do think I have a female brain actually, but do I think that gives me an excuse for being a hysterical cunt once in awhile? Yes, actually. Sorry

    I'm also curious if you could elaborate further why men and women having different brains would be a blow to feminism.
    Maybe it was more second wave to think gender isn't real. Third wave is more about things like slut shaming, which is easy to mock, lol, but try being a traumatized 13 year old.

    Google "terf brain gender"

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    Quote Originally Posted by FreelancePoliceman View Post
    @aciaradh

    Jesus Christ, this isn't academia. You don't have to try to impress anyone. When you write unclearly you invite unclear thoughts.

    Yes, gender expression is a social construct. So what?



    I'm making a generalization that's true for about 9 in 10 at least. Words aren't violence, and if writing words on an Internet forum can strip people of "agency and self-determination" then I don't know what to tell you.



    Here's some friendly advice: stop.
    I'm referring to violence in the sense of removal of choice, I'm sorry if that was unclear. Your words, taken to their logical conclusion--that Trans people abuse children--absolutely does strip people of agency.

    I’m not trying to impress anyone; my Ti role gets like that in discussions like this (esp as it's a conversation I'm tired of having) and I apologize for that. But what I’m trying to point out is that so much of the opposition to transgender identities is based on flawed assumptions. I get it if you don’t want to engage, but then you lose the pretense of authority and of good-faith motivations if you dismiss arguments simply because they’re too convoluted/academic (and these arguments are not super esoteric either). I will go back and edit my post to make it more readable; but I don't doubt for a second that you are fully capable of understanding the claims, regardless of whether or not you agree with them. This is a convoluted subject, yes. But so is hard science, and people wouldn’t presume to seriously discuss scientific topics without a willingness to engage with science that has come before. Similarly, if you actually want to have a constructive discussion about the nature of identity, then engagement with philosophical fields is kinda inevitable.


    (edit: previous post is now more clear)
    Last edited by aciaradh; 05-14-2021 at 01:45 AM.

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    @FreelancePoliceman @aciaradh

    Here's what my monke brain understands:

    -I have good friends who tell me they're trans
    -I'm a sort of androgynous guy who, while not trans and fine with my gender, tends to oscillate between more masculine and more feminine modes of expression depending on my mood and those around me, so I feel like I can sort of imagine why you would want to be the opposite gender
    -Those friends seem cool and I've never got the "crazy SJW" vibe from them that a lot of people seem to think trans people must have
    -To pretty much everyone they look and act way more like the gender that they want to be than the gender they may have been given when they were born, and that's how most people treat them in day-to-day life
    -At this point there's basically nothing left of their "original" gender, so why insist on treating them as though they still are?

    I don't understand what the problem with them is supposed to be. They have jobs, treat the people around them well, and haven't ever hurt anyone - much less any children - to my knowledge
    “Things always seem fairer when we look back at them, and it is out of that inaccessible tower of the past that Longing leans and beckons.”
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    Sooo we go from 'it's just a fad' to 'eww they abuse kids.'

    Well... statistically speaking- according to the Te/Ti data- cis Heterosexuals (especially cis heterosexual males) are the ones most likely to abuse children. I'm not trying to virtue signal- but the data is there lol.

    And even if they did- it's actually still a dumb arguement. Breeder males are statistically more likely to abuse children- yet we still give them all the extra privileges and special rights in society. We don't objectively say it's not okay to be a cis straight guy. So not a very good argument. How can we claim we care about the kids like we say we do if breeder males get all these special perks in society yet they are the ones most likely to hurt a kid for real.

    It's the tale as told as time. "right"-wing Republican straight people claim they are more moralistic and for family values and the childreeeeen - yet when the kids are born they want nothing to do with them and project the evil in their hearts onto the LGBT community. And you wonder why I don't like most straight people lololol.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ashlesha View Post
    That's an interesting question because it prompts me to encounter the fact that yea, i do think I have a female brain actually, but do I think that gives me an excuse for being a hysterical cunt once in awhile? Yes, actually. Sorry
    If you can't be blamed for sometimes being a "cunt," what do you think you can be blamed for, then, if anything?

    The attitude I take is that people should be aware of their own proclivities, and arrive at an understanding with themselves of what they're willing and not so willing to change. Everyone has to try to moderate their self against social expectations. Leaning too much either way is bad, but it's up to the individual to find that medium.

    I also think everyone, or nearly everyone, has a sense of justice, or more generally of what's right and wrong, and the guilt that comes from violating one's own sense of it damages one's sense of self and ultimately their ability to be content. If you're acting in such a way that you'd call yourself a "cunt" then the shame or guilt you seem to feel you should take as guidance to change how you act. But there's nothing wrong with feeling emotional. Your thoughts and feelings are near the core of how you experience the world, and since you have as much a right to exist as anyone else, you shouldn't feel shame for them. Expressing them is a little more complicated, but as a general rule I'd say that unless you're being casually inconsiderate/rude then you shouldn't feel shame for expressing them either.

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    Transgenderism is a social contagion much like how anorexia and bulimia were a couple decades ago. There's an unofficial term "rapid onset gender dysphoria". Most youth with gender dysphoria are struggling with other underlying issues, and there is often a general dis-ease with their self-identity. Then due to environmental factors (internet, social groups..) they fixate on the gender aspect of identity. It's hard not to when the trans community immediately affirms everyone with doubts on their gender.

    I have no problem with transgender people. However, I am against the immediate affirmation and am dubious about the medicalization of the mental disorder. ESPECIALLY when the individual in question has not fully emotionally matured yet. In the UK they're going to require a 2-year delay before people identifying as trans can get surgery. that's good. hormones and surgery are irreversible. whereas the rate of people who desist after identifying as the other gender is very high.

    I think everyone interested in the subject should listen to this podcast (specifically about gender dysphoria in boys).

    Here are some points they touch. These people are legit and not just some random theorizers.

    So many parents are blindsided when their child comes out as trans.
    The counselors and therapists are partly to blame.
    These boys are often bright, socially behind, and very online.
    Angus noticed that a lot of these boys were playing particular RPG games and it gave them a false illusion of what the female aesthetic really was.
    These very intelligent boys, who often have intelligent answers to things, are giving parents very strange and almost immature answers as to why they want to become a woman.
    Predatory men online could be further exacerbating the problem.
    We’re seeing a rocketing number of people who are saying they’re bisexual.
    What benefits do these gender dysphoric boys get by joining a girl clique? (a pre-made identity)
    Why are young women so obsessed with dressing up their new toy? (the trans boy being the toy)
    So many families are just lost and don’t know what to do.
    Want diversity and inclusion? You should see these groups. They’re diverse and they’re all worried about their child.
    When you talk to de-transitioners, they all have a level of wisdom about who they are and what they want.
    Did Angus see a connection with autism in his surveyed group?
    Children are taking fewer and fewer risks in our environment. As a way to rebel, they’re taking risks on their bodies and their personal identity instead. (before it was clothing, hair color, tattoos etc. now it's gotten to be more extreme-)

    What you should take away is that you should refrain from immediately affirming someone who tells you that they're questioning their identity. Of course, still be understanding and accepting of their feelings.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FreelancePoliceman View Post
    If you can't be blamed for sometimes being a "cunt," what do you think you can be blamed for, then, if anything?

    The attitude I take is that people should be aware of their own proclivities, and arrive at an understanding with themselves of what they're willing and not so willing to change. Everyone has to try to moderate their self against social expectations. Leaning too much either way is bad, but it's up to the individual to find that medium.

    I also think everyone, or nearly everyone, has a sense of justice, or more generally of what's right and wrong, and the guilt that comes from violating one's own sense of it damages one's sense of self and ultimately their ability to be content. If you're acting in such a way that you'd call yourself a "cunt" then the shame or guilt you seem to feel you should take as guidance to change how you act. But there's nothing wrong with feeling emotional. Your thoughts and feelings are near the core of how you experience the world, and since you have as much a right to exist as anyone else, you shouldn't feel shame for them. Expressing them is a little more complicated, but as a general rule I'd say that unless you're being casually inconsiderate/rude then you shouldn't feel shame for expressing them either.
    after i said what i did, i ended up terrified about how it would be interpreted, because i was thinking of being a "hysterical cunt" as taking a sarcastic tone and getting up from the table or something, as it is so often understood. but it might be interpreted more, like, literally and in a legitimate way, by people who aren't just mad at me anyway lol

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    Quote Originally Posted by aciaradh View Post
    I'm referring to violence in the sense of removal of choice, I'm sorry if that was unclear. Your words, taken to their logical conclusion--that Trans people abuse children--absolutely does strip people of agency.
    Unless I'm somehow a wizard and my writing has a mystical effect I've been unaware of, my forum posts don't force anyone to act or not act as they please.

    I’m not trying to impress anyone; my Ti role gets like that in discussions like this (esp as it's a conversation I'm tired of having) and I apologize for that. But what I’m trying to point out is that so much of the opposition to transgender identities is based on flawed assumptions. I get it if you don’t want to engage, but then you lose the pretense of authority and of good-faith motivations if you dismiss arguments simply because they’re too convoluted/academic (and these arguments are not super esoteric either).
    The problem with avant-garde humanities "theories" -- feminist theory, critical theory -- is not that they're too complex but that the obscure language used masks hazy thought. It's possible in plain language to describe the concepts being discussed; they aren't so complicated. But when you write as you did (I don't mean to insult you, just stating what I see) you bring in too many implicit claims that are irritating to have to go through in order to make a comprehensive reply.

    This is a convoluted subject, yes. But so is hard science, and people wouldn’t presume to talk about scientific subjects without a willingness to engage with science that has come before. Similarly, if you actually want to have a constructive discussion about the nature of identity, then engagement with philosophical fields is kinda inevitable.


    A better analogy would be theology, where any literate person used to reading super-Latinized English
    can follow a discussion, but feels lost when reading an intense screed arguing the difference between God's ousia versus prosopon because the relevant jargon is intentionally created to mystify what it refers to, and some of the most intense fights occur over the most vague of conceptions clashing with another vague set of conceptions. This isn't something I can force you to see, so if you disagree and think "feminist theory" or whatever demonstrates or even values clarity of thought, I don't really see the point of further discussion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ashlesha View Post
    after i said what i did, i ended up terrified about how it would be interpreted, because i was thinking of being a "hysterical cunt" as taking a sarcastic tone and getting up from the table or something, as it is so often understood. but it might be interpreted more, like, literally and in a legitimate way, by people who aren't just mad at me anyway lol
    Were you joking when you said that, then? If so, I apologize for misunderstanding.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AWellArmedCat View Post
    -I'm a sort of androgynous guy who, while not trans and fine with my gender, tends to oscillate between more masculine and more feminine modes of expression depending on my mood and those around me, so I feel like I can sort of imagine why you would want to be the opposite gender
    I'm interested by what you said here. Just to be clear, my understanding is that you're saying you act sometimes in ways that are seen as stereotypically feminine and sometimes in ways that are seen as stereotypically masculine. What does that have to do with wanting to be seen as a girl?

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    Quote Originally Posted by FreelancePoliceman View Post
    Were you joking when you said that, then? If so, I apologize for misunderstanding.
    so sweet of you to say that when i should think more before i type things to the universe, lol <3

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    Quote Originally Posted by FreelancePoliceman View Post
    What does that have to do with wanting to be seen as a girl?
    It doesn't really. I wasn't trying to say that I understand the experience of gender dysphoria, but rather that I personally don't feel a very strong sense of my gender nor any particular drive to act in ways that someone my gender may be expected to. All I meant by this was that if we imagine that there's a sliding gender dysphoria scale with "I very strongly identify with my assigned gender" on one end and "I very strongly identify with the opposite gender" on the other I feel somewhat in the middle or ambivalent. Because of that it's just as easy for me to imagine identifying strongly with one's assigned gender as it is for me to imagine identifying strongly with its opposite
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    Some people seem to be anxious around the existence of trans people, the idea of gender being a social construct, or the idea that they can be convinced to go through the wrong puberty. This gender anxiety is due to people wanting to have a firm gender identity or unconscious sex. This does not mean a feminine/masculine gender role. This means, how the person expects their body to be, what hormones would be dominant in their system, their unconscious sex. Most people have this, although it can be quite difficult to notice. The people may believe that trans people existing might threaten their own unconscious sex. "If a man can decide he's a woman, why shouldn't I decide I'm a man for social benefits?" a woman might ask. The thing is, unconscious sex is NOT a choice. Virtually every woman, if she found out that she had gone through a testosterone-based puberty would feel as if her body does not match what she expects it to be. Vice versa for men going though an estrogen-based puberty. This can lead to disgust, despair, anxiety, depression, or what is commonly referred to as gender dysphoria.

    You may see people encouraging gender-role atypical people to transition and have a reaction akin to "The trans community is enforcing gender roles!" Unfortunately, it's human nature to assume that most people experience the world as you do. Some people assume that everyone who is feminine wants to be a woman, which is untrue. This can be seen in places such as r/egg_irl, which understandably, causes this gender anxiety that was talked about. Not only is this harmful to gender-role atypical cisgender people, it is also harmful to gender-role atypical transgender people. Trans women can be butch, and trans men can be effeminate.

    Some people can not understand unconscious sex and assume that it's related to gender roles. This again, is due to the false assumption that most people experience the world as you do. Some people may legitimately be equally as comfortable in a male body as a female body. And that's okay!

    tl;dr gender identity is an innate phenomenon separate from gender roles and physical sex. wanting to be a gender makes you that gender, even if you're not trans.

    * I kind of relayed a lot of these ideas from the subconscious sex and intrinsic inclination chapters of Julia Serano's Whipping Girl. Because my memory is somewhat limited, the ideas expressed in the book may be more clear than how I was able to express them.

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    While my own beliefs and the way I choose to define the world sort of clashes with transgender ideology, I am well aware a good majority of the people mean no harm and have their own reality. For contextualization, I believe that gender = sex, so that alone I can understand transsexuals. However when it comes to things like "non-binary" and "gender-fluid," I can't help but get confused as I don't see how gender can fully affect your mindset, aesthetic, and spiritual energy. On top of that I see that pronouns are tightly intertwined with sex in MOST languages, but not all. Keep in mind that I don't understand things like gender identity or spiritual well-being. However, I'm not that much of a cold asshole, I know that a lot of these people suffer from gender dysphoria, an actual medical mental illness, and I may not understand spiritual stuff or so I rather gain experience before I judge. So, I try my best to avoid using the wrong pronouns for individuals, and if I'm not close to them, then I won't even refer to them.

    For my only experience, it's how people feel? I mean, objectively I am much more masculine and included to take leading/protecting roles compared to other girls around me, and even a good majority of the boys at my school. Guess that's my nature to want to be competent and independent, but also reliable for those I deeply care for. So the people around me end up seeing me as masculine, suggesting I am likely trans, however I still feel very comfortable in my own body as a female so I was only confused by trans-ideology even further.

    Again, when it comes to things like transitioning, as long as the person is a grown adult and knows what they truly want, sure. For trans-men, they can go use the men's restroom the moment they pass as a man. On the other hand, trans women would at least have to pass, if not lose the majority of their muscle mass. They would have to loose strength for me to be cool with them using the women's restroom. My reasoning is because many biological males fake, or use being trans as a way to get away with perversion and take advantage of women in women only spaces; so to trust a individual who has fully functional testicles and penile other than being 2-3x times stronger than me/other women, to be allowed to use the same restroom in a space where I am in my most vulnerable position, I would say no. However, to see a trans-woman whom has at least put in effort to pass as a biological female, and is going through with things like loosing their muscle strength and loosing penile function in order to have bottom surgery, etc, then I rather have them use the women's restroom than the men's restroom.

    When it comes to sports, women for women, men for men, trans for trans. Trans women and men are too much at a disadvantage to competition with men on average, and too much at an advantage to compete with women, so they should have their own sections. I'm not trying to be exclusive, I just want my beliefs to be fair.

    As for my opinion about the people in general, I don't care. How can I judge a whole category of people who are so vastly different and diverse in political beliefs and morals? I can make some assumptions, but I know that will affect the integrity and insight of my judgments and conclusions. I am currently dating a trans-man, and while they seem more feminine to me at least, especially for being a EII type, I don't try to emasculate them in any way. I respect them for their integrity, and how they stick to their principles. In the end, I rather judge people by their ability to be competent, disciplined, and their overall character, not by something that doesn't determine who they truly are as a person/individual. (Example: To hire someone because of their abilities > their race/gender, Befriend someone for their character/how they benefit me/their agreeableness > their physical traits). Perhaps my own lover has made me soft, but I don't think I am biased in any way.

    Though I have done my own research, many of the pioneers of this ideology where known Nazi's and pedophiles, for the surgery part at least as they had experimented with hormones and butchering people's genitals. However, the mental discovery seems to be more of a self discovery thing instead of indoctrination. I think the rise of transgender-ism is linked to two factors, people who can be open about themselves in a non-judgmental society, and people who just want to feel special. So I understand that this topic is controversial since it seems to be a innocent topic that has associations with some well known exploitative bad people, like Ollie London for example.

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    Dunno man, I just heard another transgender person and it felt like they were pettily insulting cisgender gay males like myself which I don't get - it just makes people think you're really a gay guy that can't deal when you do that. They think that two male bodies clash too much even more than a lot of homophobic str8 ppl- and trust me darling, they don't clash for us at all. But like I said before, they are probably sick and tired of getting compared to gay men and ppl thinking they are gay guys , but this trans person themselves said they thought they were a gay guy at first lol. Actually this person was weird, it was like they wanted to say something petty and insulting but had to be PC instead and I wish they would just let it out of their system instead of act fake in a Te way, but oh well.

    I support the trans community but I just can't personally relate to feeling like I was born in the wrong body or the wrong gender. I'm 110% all man baby lol. However, not being an asshole is supporting people even if u can't fully relate to them or completely understand them. I don't like hunting or fishing or flying in a plane and shooting thing downs like str8 males but when I tried dressing in woman's clothes & putting on make-up it wasn't for me at all, just felt so out of place and weird in the bad way. When pervy males ask me to put on feminine undergarments to give them boners, I nope right on outta there.

    Compassion and empathy/"rights" is basically realizing not everything is about you - which Republicunts can't or won't do and they basically think that because this feels wrong for them it's wrong for everybody and we should all just be white and straight and blonde and cisgendered like on Fake News. Personally speaking though, I don't appreciate being bullied by typical str8 males just to also get bullied by a bunch of trans preppy Te people-pleasing bitches- so they could also be nicer even if they are the ones that are more objectively disadvantageous in a Te way compared to me. Just like I could be nicer to str8 women I guess even though Te likes them better than me and we're closer to getting a str8 female president than we are an [openly] gay male one. If the New World Order ppl knows how to promote women that aren't like Hillary lol Are the petty insults/digs based on Te jealousy either way? Str8 females said I was jealous of them before- but I'm not really jealous of them per se - but maybe how they got an easier time being treated compared to me in some situations I guess? I mean I never felt like anybody campily rolled out a red carpet for me as a gay guy while saying to the trans people 'this isn't for you' but I guess, a lot of them still feel that way. /shrug.

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    When people call themselves a damn nonbinary and they put in no effort and are literally female presenting the binary with a full face of makeup, and are called Sally or a straight fat, old man with a bald head called Bill... that's where I draw the line.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nobody View Post
    Conversely, there's a lot of hate and backlash in Western society, where for whatever reasons, people want to pretend gender is just a subjective thing created by society and look to justify that, rather than do a more scientific look in the brain. Now that's not to say there isn't some truth to that either, but the real truth has got to be somewhere in the middle somewhere. So it seems a bit naive for Western people to trivial gender as enforced by society or something like that.
    There is a lot of speculation, probably because most people are aware it isn't possible to prove anything at this point. Proof would come from genetics, not the brain, and genetic information degenerates (somewhat) in time due to copying/transcription errors which can be re-copied till the organism dies.

    Once a person is old enough to show gendered behaviour, they've already been exposed to numerous influences, social and chemical.

    Brain scans are not evidence of anything... Structural alterations have been shown for decades in cases of depression, pregnancy, memory, and therefore inevitably with indoctrination as well--repeated global cognitive processes cause structural shifts.

    Chinese medical research does not consistently meet first-world empirical standards, which might of course have something to do with the entire country living behind a firewall which instils naivete (this is almost certainly deliberate)

    The problem with these types of discussions lies in dilettante medical theorising that gleefully dispenses with fact. Original post was rather good, and some that followed were as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hot Scalding Gayser View Post
    Dunno man, I just heard another transgender person and it felt like they were pettily insulting cisgender gay males like myself which I don't get - it just makes people think you're really a gay guy that can't deal when you do that.
    You may be right. There's probably all sorts... some are even perverts, inevitably (transitioning into homosexuality sometimes seems fetishistic based on how people write about it in their internet blogs...). Likewise, some almost certainly were seduced by the counter-culture fashionability

    Most people are not highly devious or violent, however. It seems gender just doesn't work that well as a top-down approach to social stratification. Group diversity has been repeatedly shown to have beneficial effects in many applications... for this reason if not from some more humane sentiment, all people should be respected regardless of identification/physical traits... I do understand wanting to be the opposite sex for purely physical reasons however, and have read about the practical aspects extensively. The cultural ban on any 'rhetoric' (even questions) construed as being against the trans movement (which has never existed for other oppressed groups imo) prevents there being a wealth of unbiased philosophical discourse, particularly in re 'is this a form of self-disrespect; can I recover and live normally if I take all of these steps' etc
    Last edited by theum nathair; 10-11-2023 at 08:38 PM.

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    I respect their identity but think they should accept that there are going to be limits to the extent that they'll be accepted as indistinguishable from cis women for the foreseeable future. I can understand wanting to look and act like a woman, but think it's unhealthy to obsess over being considered a bona fide woman and I'm just not smart enough to delve into the metaphysics of gender and convince myself that they're the same as the humans socialized as females that I grew up liking

    I think there’s something about womanhood and manhood that runs deeper than just your physical appearance, mannerisms, interests/tastes, and hormonal profile at a given point in time. Anecdotally, a lot of trans women remind me of gay men in the way they write and express themselves sexually and present their “assets” in a porny, male gaze-centered way on dating apps, so I kind of disagree with the premise that they have feminine minds
    Last edited by Averroes; 10-12-2023 at 01:25 PM.

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    I don't really care but when the medical industry wants to make money and mutilate people permanently I have issues. It is sick that people do not understand that we are mortal and until we can actually change the program holistically then it is usually better to submit to your biology where you can not fix it and it does not threaten you.

    This obsession on medicalization of life is sick. I have read estimates that say that over 600 boys could die annually due to circumcision in the US. Really, it is sick af. I take no drugs and I aim never to take them permanently. Leave your body alone and put put on dress if you want and mutilate yourself as an adult.
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    If I had a deep burning desire to be an ethnic Korean and hated being black, a therapist would probably encourage me to accept myself instead of drastically modifying my appearance and spending my life desperately trying to be accepted by Koreans as one of their own

    It’s a weak analogy but I feel like there’s a similar level of futility there

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    Quote Originally Posted by Averroes View Post
    If I had a deep burning desire to be an ethnic Korean and hated being black, a therapist would probably encourage me to accept myself instead of drastically modifying my appearance and spending my life desperately trying to be accepted by Koreans as one of their own

    It’s a weak analogy but I feel like there’s a similar level of futility there
    Sums up everything just right. The body functions fine, but it's the mind that's fucked up or not aligned. Just trans people choose to change their body to align with their mind, even if it's just mimicry in my opinion. But again, if a guy were to voluntarily castrate themselves and get on estrogen, looking like a woman and acting like one, they would be treated like one. Which women are treated nicely usually, but also are more likely to be SA-ed, jumped, etc. So at that point, it would just be better to just have a fully transitioned transsexual person use their chosen bathroom, especially since my word isn't the law.

    But again, is it really right for people to bully mentally ill people?

    Probably not.

    The difference between transracialism and transgendrism is that transgenderism is just mostly socially acceptable.

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