I don’t abandon people for this reason hm. It’s not like this for me. Can you relate to what I said point blank (since Myst said she only could in a more diluted version and she’s LSI)? If not, I’d question Fi polr for you.Originally Posted by Liriope
[Today 07:57 AM] Raver: Life is a ride that lasts very long, but still a ride. It is a dream that we have yet to awaken from.
It's hard to find a love through every shade of grey.
I added some clarification to my post while you were replying to me, but I think terrified is maybe a good word? I think the abandoning behavior might just be immaturity (early 20s) and I'm not even totally aware of why I do it. It's just like the idea of having to put work into maintaining the relationship? Or maybe trust issues? I don't know, this is getting a little deep
Can you relate, to the point of feeling slightly defensive to the Fe HA “to be loved” thing?I added some clarification to my post while you were replying to me, but I think terrified is maybe a good word? I think the abandoning behavior might just be immaturity (early 20s) and I'm not even totally aware of why I do it. It's just like the idea of having to put work into maintaining the relationship? Or maybe trust issues? I don't know, this is getting a little deep
[Today 07:57 AM] Raver: Life is a ride that lasts very long, but still a ride. It is a dream that we have yet to awaken from.
It's hard to find a love through every shade of grey.
I take this back btw @Liriope since I only skimmed your posts before this. I do think SLE is totally possible for you now.
[Today 07:57 AM] Raver: Life is a ride that lasts very long, but still a ride. It is a dream that we have yet to awaken from.
It's hard to find a love through every shade of grey.
Are you talking about this?
Or do you just mean the idea of needing to be loved in general? I'm not sure how I feel about it. What would be equivalent examples of both Ni or Fe comments that could trigger defensiveness?
I am talking about this, rather well known source: http://www.socionics.com/articles/hiddena.htm .
[Today 07:57 AM] Raver: Life is a ride that lasts very long, but still a ride. It is a dream that we have yet to awaken from.
It's hard to find a love through every shade of grey.
Both are 1D so both manifest the same. Socionics 101.
-L and -E can't argue. -L wants to make decisions based on logic and -E wants to make decisions based on ethic. They are completely separate realms.Let me illustrate an example of Ti vs Fi conflict:
Ti says that action is what they do is utter shit and it goes against several rules.
Fi says: but they have family to feed.
Ti says: they should have thought about it earlier breaking the rules to feed themselves is still a violation and they should have never procreated.
Only opposite method functions can argue, -L and +L or -I and +I, etc.
You constantly question stuff and your own feelings towards things even in your posts. An LSI by contrast would desire and display more clarity and eschew vagueness. SLE looking very likely to me for you at this point.
@Liriope
[Today 07:57 AM] Raver: Life is a ride that lasts very long, but still a ride. It is a dream that we have yet to awaken from.
It's hard to find a love through every shade of grey.
Okay yeah, that was one of the pages that made me confused about my type (among some other sources of info that would prob derail the thread), because while thinking I was LSI, I don't even know what "to believe" is supposed to mean. But I don't particularly feel defensive about anything on that list? When I first looked at it I thought "to be loved" could explain some of my behaviors but it's a bit vague here.
He’s talking about Fe as suggestive, you dingus.
[Today 07:57 AM] Raver: Life is a ride that lasts very long, but still a ride. It is a dream that we have yet to awaken from.
It's hard to find a love through every shade of grey.
@Rebelondeck here’s another review on your page btw
[Today 07:57 AM] Raver: Life is a ride that lasts very long, but still a ride. It is a dream that we have yet to awaken from.
It's hard to find a love through every shade of grey.
@niffer I get a little mixed up when the JCF-MBTI people have a bit of a different focus on what Fi means than the Socionics people, but would this be explained by Fi PoLR as well? The thing I absolutely hated the most about public school, without a doubt, is when they made the class discuss or write about personal things, like "Who is your role model and why?", "What are the qualities you love about your friends?", "What is a song whose lyrics connect with you personally?" Those things made me want to get up and walk out. It was like it broke my brain.
@Liriope Why do you dislike those topics?
[Today 07:57 AM] Raver: Life is a ride that lasts very long, but still a ride. It is a dream that we have yet to awaken from.
It's hard to find a love through every shade of grey.
If it’s difficult for you to self-analyze and discuss why you like or dislike things, then yes that’s definitely 1D Fi and Ni of SLE, and I could relate to it a lot before I got more used to doing it with others, by using socionics and other things mostly actually.
[Today 07:57 AM] Raver: Life is a ride that lasts very long, but still a ride. It is a dream that we have yet to awaken from.
It's hard to find a love through every shade of grey.
I think a better way to think about it is to realize its essentially "what is the ultimate endstate and therefore purpose of these functions" and you can almost entirely divorce them from the type itself and just realize its an expression of a valued 2d function i.e.: values a thing in its normative manifestation therefore without any non-linear nuance, therefore to its "utmost extent" which is nevertheless somehow itself naive in its conception:
(in a 2d extrapolated form)
Fe: to be universally admired
Si: be the ultimate specimen
Ne: to always be truly right
Ti: to have absolute clarity
Se: to always be comparatively more powerful
Ni: to have found the truest cause
Te: to be able to devise the best course of action
Fi: to genuinely value another person beyond oneself completely and utterly
if there's a problem here its that all of these are good things that everyone should more or less aspire to since they recognize norms the human cognitive framework was adapted to be able to ascertain and move toward, i.e.: slices of reality across which positive movement is possible and selected-for, thus like the "omnis" of the attributes of God they all start to bleed into one another: perfect beauty is perfect truth etc, its all just the vector one prefers to come by it, but they're all really takes on exactly the same thing, which is some form of perfection we dimly aim at and yet place a high degree of important of feedback on, a kind of semi conscious measuring stick we hold ourselves to. its our self esteem but we rarely face up to it head on as the yardstick by which we truly measure ourselves. because of precisely that its hard to type oneself according to HA
in other words, no one can genuinely say they could negate one of them, because they should be arrayed such that if you truly negate one of them you negate all of them. in other words, if you are confused (Ti) it can undo the rest, because how do you know x or y is true. If you are disliked (Fe) perhaps your course of action is wrong. if you are weaker than something (Se) perhaps you don't love enough (Fi).. they are all interrelated and all come to nothing and everything all at the same time, its the emphasis against all reason on one to the exclusion of others at the expense of all that makes their puerile aspect become obvious (perfect can be the enemy of good), when HA sticks out its this weird form of ego preservation that thinks "this is the ticket" without realizing the entire self is being undermined at that moment (you have to lose to win (Se) you have to love oneself first (Fi) (you are already, and can be, and should be, selfish), you can see a lot of messages of duals are precisely these kinds of targeted messages)... its a way they bring exceptions to bear in a way the person has great difficulty providing for themselves, without destabilizing themselves completely, in a way that is fully appreciated on a deep subconscious level by the other half
Last edited by Bertrand; 06-22-2018 at 11:58 PM.
I just don't know how I feel about them and what the actual answer would be. I always wrote something politically correct and probably insincere because it was so much easier to get the grade that way.
Hahahahaha I can relate to this so much
[Today 07:57 AM] Raver: Life is a ride that lasts very long, but still a ride. It is a dream that we have yet to awaken from.
It's hard to find a love through every shade of grey.
So you do still self-type as xLI again @Bertrand
[Today 07:57 AM] Raver: Life is a ride that lasts very long, but still a ride. It is a dream that we have yet to awaken from.
It's hard to find a love through every shade of grey.
Learn to read.
Fi PoLR. No way this is Fi role or Fe DS lolI added some clarification to my post while you were replying to me, but I think terrified is maybe a good word? I think the abandoning behavior might just be immaturity (early 20s) and I'm not even totally aware of why I do it. It's just like the idea of having to put work into maintaining the relationship? Or maybe trust issues? I don't know, this is getting a little deep
Explanation: it's complete lack of awareness of why you do relationship related things or internal feelings (Fi) related stuff. I don't have a very good awareness either but this is a stark difference I thinkAlso just the way you are putting things... way more xLE than any kind of LxI lol, I can't explain the impression though beyond how it's to do with how 1) you trying to logic all this out on the fly 2) you put in that Fe emoticon in that way you did
Lol you are worried about expectations. Not a Rational type I think, not LSI anyway.
Last edited by Myst; 06-23-2018 at 07:06 AM.
...Yeah these posts really show what Fi PoLR is like I guess. In comparison, back then when I still went to school, I hated brainstorming related tasks... Not that I would've been able to answer who my role model is (never had one and never will). Qualities about my friends, I'd have been able to give incredibly basic answers back then lol. I'd be able to be more elaborate now. With songs stuff I still would not be able to elaborate well but it's okay, it's just a "meh" question lol. The question about friends though is actually interesting to me. I analysed this topic a lot before in terms of what these qualities are, not that I'm able to give that much more elaborate answers now than before I analysed the topic but definitely more exhaustive an answer by now.
Niffer, yeah difficult for me too to self-analyse and discuss why I like or dislike things but I didn't need Socionics or other people's help to do it I think.
And the PC insincere stuff lol I never thought of doing it like that.
You may want to learn to read too
This was actually an interesting post in some bits of it but I believe that unfortunately it's not as simple as one IE having just one specific agenda. I like your Ni one though lol. And your Fi one I guess was interesting too.
PS: not surprised you were unable to respond to my PM asking you a quite difficult question... oh well it's fine I'm gonna just ask in public too. EDIT: Asked in your Visitor messages page.
And that's a problem that model A didn't take into account (though it's missing many other principles too about the interactions of the IEs ofc).in other words, no one can genuinely say they could negate one of them, because they should be arrayed such that if you truly negate one of them you negate all of them. in other words, if you are confused (Ti) it can undo the rest, because how do you know x or y is true. If you are disliked (Fe) perhaps your course of action is wrong. if you are weaker than something (Se) perhaps you don't love enough (Fi).. they are all interrelated (...)
@Liriope I wouldn't use hidden agenda as any basis for determining type. Hidden refers to lower priority of an agenda, and agendas are contrivances that try to quantify perceptions of information handling processes. I wrote the article to show how one could draw the same conclusions from a different perspective than the one Socionics has. On this site, I posted another article on primary agendas, which become more obscure with lower priorities - and perhaps hidden. Socionics has a solid basis but some interpretations of the observations are somewhat superficial and naive. The best way to determine type is to become informed and remain objective - uninfluenced by other amateurs like me and with no personal biases; one needs the view from the top of the hill. I think of type as a tool and not as a scripture that will govern my life......
a.k.a. I/O
Fi polr is obvious if you understand socionics and aren't trying to twist it into something you want it to be.
Fi polr is like... You are personally weak/vulnerable to the intersubjective fields people have with other objects. In the most extreme campy way this would physically translate to a male SLE breaking all of socetial laws because it's cool and sexy to do so etc - they are already avoiding the weakness of the nuances and softness of fields between objects so why not just disrespectfully barrage through them all out of their own personal insecurity?
But this is just the very, very campy over the top example. In truth there are many other little ways Fi polr manifest itself. On a positive note, Fi polr can make you treat everybody more fairly and with true equality as well because you are avoiding their personal repulsion/attraction to objects. So this can make SLEs and ILEs great leaders/tanks and even humanitarians. Whereas an unhealthy EII might be way too fixated on how somebody likes that and how they shouldn't like that because it really personally offends them etc. And their own morality can be blindsided over what essentially boils down to a personal grudge. ((even though in a general sense/pretty bow way, - an EII will have the moral high ground compared to an SLE most of the time)) Especially if that SLE is male probably.
Female SLE tends to be more subtle with hurting people's feelings but not realizing it and then feeling awful and feeling way too too serious/responsible that they hurt the feelings in the first place (like taking on other people's feelings too much as their own instead of using Fi to create healthy boundaries) - its all part of the weakness. Male SLEs that aren't the 'prison Chad sex fiend' stereotype also have this. Also beta male beta male SLEs. (see what I did thur?) The ones that are more puppy than pit bull.
How about ILEs @BandD ?
IME it takes form of Doc Brown. ILE's are oblivious when it comes to burning need to latch long term with other individuals in their life which ultimately extends to not seeing others need for it. It merely serves as nostalgic component.
MOTTO: NEVER TRUST IN REALITY
Winning is for losers
Sincerely yours,
idiosyncratic type
Life is a joke but do you have a life?
Joinif you dare https://matrix.to/#/#The16Types:matrix.org
This is an amazingly perceptive statement, and is very true, I think.
I work with an ILE and an SEI, and I've told the ILE that the SEI is his dual and he should spend more time with her because her type is his best match. His reply is "Huh? You talking to me?" It is like he sees her, but he doesn't connect with her. Heck, he doesn't connect with anyone, except perhaps a male LII that he goes drinking with.
He's pushing 40 and I once asked him when he's going to get married. He gave me a blank look (man, I find it so disturbing - like there's no one home in the castle) and said "Maybe when I'm 50." Lol. Right. When the rest of your teeth have fallen out, you'll be a catch then.
I got a call from a second ILE asking me for some help. He found my name somehow because we had both worked for the same spectrograph company, me long ago, and him last year, so I drove over to his house to see what he wanted. His SEI wife met me at the door and brought me into their kitchen, where the ILE was waiting. He and I talked for a while, mostly about what a rat the president of the spectrograph company was. The ILE had had a mental breakdown while unsuccessfully trying for weeks to service a unit in Japan, and had been fired, and now he wanted revenge. He had an idea for improving the spectrograph (which was pretty good, really) and needed someone familiar with the unit to design the parts he didn't understand. He wanted to start a company to compete with the spectrograph company, which, because their design is so bad, is a strategy that might actually work.
I was enjoying the Socionics aspects of the situation, and I also thought it would be nice to throw a wrench into the spectrograph company, and I had some spare time, so I told him I could design his spectrograph (in a few hours on the weekend, just for the hell of it) for a price, and I named a price that would make it worth my while. My free time isn't free, really.
The price was too high, but he thanked me for visiting him.
He had decided that he'd prefer to take two years to figure out how to design a specialized instrument himself (and would probably become distracted in that time), rather than just pay someone who could provide him with a solution in a day or two. He figured that he didn't need me. He wanted to do it all himself.
This is why ILE's are great inventors and terrible Capitalists. And why they take forever to get to a simple goal. Like marriage. That Ne with Fi-PoLR is a bitch.
Last edited by Adam Strange; 12-28-2019 at 09:45 AM.
My sister (SEE): I met coworker's son. He was doing fine (software), quite weird and answered nah to every question about personal relationships. He was a lot like you.
MOTTO: NEVER TRUST IN REALITY
Winning is for losers
Sincerely yours,
idiosyncratic type
Life is a joke but do you have a life?
Joinif you dare https://matrix.to/#/#The16Types:matrix.org
I have this one female LIE coworker and I’m not sure if I 90% like her and 10% dislike her, or 90% dislike her and 10% like her.
@sbbds, this is EXACTLY how I feel about my own Benefactors, the IEE's.
Trying to separate facts from feelings.
Really? For me this isn’t about female LIEs (one of my best friends is one) or LIEs at all probably. It’s just about my Fi polr. I thought it was a good example. It might be part of issue here though.@sbbds, this is EXACTLY how I feel about my own Benefactors, the IEE's.
Trying to separate facts from feelings.
It seems like she only talks to me when she wants someone to complain about her shit to (which includes other people, who I like, and sometimes also includes me amazingly). She literally tells our managers that she pours out all her shit to me. Don’t just have your free lunch and then take a big shit in the box. Everything has its consequences.
that sounds almost nice like, you don't even know if you like the person or not, so you can't really have... really bad feelings/resentments/high annoyance?
I see what you mean. She sounds incredibly screwed up. Are you sure she's LIE? Not that LIE's can't be screwed up, but we tend to be screwed up in different ways.
@bouncingoffclouds, I almost instantly like my Benefactors, regardless of what kind of human being they objectively are. I can't easily see their faults. I mean, I theoretically know what other people say about IEE's and it's not all good, but those things don't bother me that much in the face of the subjective impression they make.
Like what. It’s just dumb low Fi behavior IMO. I have never met another LIE who was this bad like her either though, so I get your confusion about this.
Like, what are the ways that LIE's are fucked up? Hah. Let me count them.
We can be stupidly stubborn in the face of reason. Half the LIE's just don't trust other people at all. We suck at making people feel comfortable and many of us say way too much about what we are thinking, regardless of how it affects other people.
I have to stop here, otherwise I'd be typing all night.
It’s not about my benefactors @Adam Strange lol (my case anyway).
This is somewhat true for all types/people I interact with. Occasionally I will get confused like this if the person gives me a lot of contradictory information in terms of whether they seem to want to get closer to me or not.
It’s hard to make me resent people or have bad feelings towards them for a long time. I’m pretty out of sight out of mind about this stuff. You’d need to do something either directly annoying to me repeatedly, or really unprincipled without remorse to make me feel dislike towards you.
lol Adam, it's all good. I had a giggle marking that as constructive
I actually realized that my benefactor is ESE as a result of your post @Adam Strange . I realized I hadn't really looked into that and I feel it is beneficial to have obtained this knowledge. I'm pretty sure I had an ESE trainer yesterday and while in my annoyed due to other reasons state, I found her a bit over the top, I soon found myself charmed by her and couldn't stop noticing how pretty she was up close.
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