I research for a living because I want to know things. When something catches my interest, I want to know everything about it and get obsessed with it until I get tired of it and then I will often (not always) drop it completely. So I can tell you every detail about random topics like Mount Everest sherpas, Yoruba spirituality, life under the German welfare system, the U.S. healthcare system and its effects on people, undocumented immigrants along the U.S. border, transgender rights, Cuban photography, alcoholism and recovery, schizophrenia, combat PTSD, dog rescue, and a bunch of other topics, mostly related to people and their stories in different contexts, because at some point in my life those caught my interest. I like to look at issues from all angles, especially the human experience and including suffering, sadness, and violence. I want to know people and their lives, histories, and thoughts and I like to help them connect the dots if they need help connecting them.
I am an academic because I love to do research and because it allows me to change direction when I get bored. I love to read, listen, and connect. I write articles about contemporary migration movements, literature, film, and art and make connections historically and socioculturally. I love to interact with students and talk to them about their plans, assess their potential, and help them work through all the possibilities.
In a nutshell.
I read this yesterday when you posted it and I really find your interests fascinating. I bet you can carry on an excellent conversation on any number of subjects with all kinds of different people. You can probably find some topic of interest to go on about with anyone you meet. Its a valuable thing, that's for sure, and I admire it..
I was sitting in the kitchen doing some mindless chores with my Mom just now and thinking about what you said here. Then something suddenly dawned on me that is too much not to share now. So I logged the computer back on just to say this:.
Did you notice how our hidden agenda's are quite different? That confirms a point I am always trying to make, that you, and Ann as well, think very different from me. (I wonder what @anndelise's HA list looks like? More like yours, or more like mine?
So I was sitting and thinking of what you said here, and how you communicated your Te list much more directly and clearly than I did. Your really interesting Te list. When you asked it of me there was no hesitation in me knowing just where that "need to know" seems to focus for me, but I did struggle a bit with just how to explain it. I did the best I could.
Now today I was just reflecting on how my list is just not as clear(?) as yours. Was that the right word? No. Then I realized - mine is more hidden than yours!
Look at your list. That doesn't look like any hidden agenda. Its your life.
Yes i followed a few links in the comments below. I didn't find any new ideas but there does seem to be several theories that incorporate the ideas I had. I'm sure there are many more besides.
Now this is a story all about how, my type got changed, turned upside down. Just wait for a minute and watch chatbox right there, & I'll tell how Gem became the moderator with blue hair.
In typology central friended and praised, on the picture thread was where she spent most her days. Chilling out, selfies, relaxing all cool, And all typing some people and getting them schooled.
When a couple of girls who were up to no good, Started annoying her & her friends in the forumhood, She got in one little flame war & got pissed off & said 'I'm moving in with that exboyfriend in the forum with the socionics toffs.
So Gem pulls up to the forum for a year without being a hater, And yells to typocentral 'Yo creeps! Smell Ya later', Became a mod in her kingdom she was finally there, To sit on her throne as the mod with blue hair.
Look at your list. That doesn't look like any hidden agenda. Its your life.
It looks just like Te is something you VALUE.
My life is NeFi and I think my post clearly illustrates that. I don't accumulate knowledge for the sake of knowing random things. I want knowledge so I can understand people.
“Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage.”
― Anais Nin
Yes, I definitely am. Going to get my Mom situated (i.e., full of ice cream her favorite) since my son is home to hold down the fort and I can escape for some needed errands (including baby gates for my kitchen because I am tired of her undoing everything I do,she goes into do that as soon as I walk out) and milk run to the dairy, in two opposing directions. I will get to this tonight or tomorrow though. I will stick with this and answer 1 Q at a time.
Later points cover that.
But if you cannot understand what that paragraph was building off of,
then you wouldn't be able to understand what it's saying.
And if I can't find the specific points which confused you,
Then I cannot clarify them for you.
Now, to resume:
The paragraph in question is:
Point 2 was just one of the answers to your "oops I am confused. What are you referring to here?"
That one paragraph referrenced quite a few things
The "affair" reference was only one reference.
The "we" reference was another one.
There are more references, but at that moment I could not be sure what you understood
and what you didn't.
So that point-post was covering the possible confusions for you.
There are more references,
but I'm trying to keep things simple and clear here.
Is point 2 a point of confusion for you?
Do you understand who "we" referred to?
(Don't worry, things will get more interesting soon.)
I think so far what you are actually saying here is not confusion. Just why its being said and what you could be getting at, now that's confusing.
Here is what I think I get. Even though I don;t knw why its being said. Points one and two wre claifying 1) what I said I missed and 2) /might have missed.
Information can only be garbage if you don't know how to understand it. The only knowledge that I can see construed as pollution is the factually incorrect, but you're endorsing active ignorance and denial of things you don't like. By pushing out all the things that make you uncomfortable or force you to challenge your world view, you can't possibly "expand your mind" because you're actively ignoring out all the inconvenient bits that don't fit with your vision of how things "ought" to be. Your world then becomes a self-secluded bubble that cares only for itself and not for the world it's actually living in.
3) note that not once did he reference physical sensations.
That was Galen's response to you.
I am not asking you to agree with what he wrote.
I am asking you to objectively read what he wrote.
Galen's response further clarified what Galen considered important.
He is referring to world views, challenging world views,
and expanding world views.
He sees polluted knowledge as being knowledge which is factually incorrect.
"World Views" is a global and abstract concept.
Not once did his post reference physical sensations.
Go ahead and reread it. That is why I provided its quote for you.
To make it easy for you to check.
Do you understand that Galen was referring to World Views,
and factually incorrect knowledge, not referring to filtering out physical sensations?
Do you understand point 3?
It's important that you understand this,
because it will be referred to later.
If you do not understand this,
You won't understand later.
I read this yesterday when you posted it and I really find your interests fascinating. I bet you can carry on an excellent conversation on any number of subjects with all kinds of different people. You can probably find some topic of interest to go on about with anyone you meet. Its a valuable thing, that's for sure, and I admire it..
I was sitting in the kitchen doing some mindless chores with my Mom just now and thinking about what you said here. Then something suddenly dawned on me that is too much not to share now. So I logged the computer back on just to say this:.
Did you notice how our hidden agenda's are quite different? That confirms a point I am always trying to make, that you, and Ann as well, think very different from me. (I wonder what @anndelise's HA list looks like? More like yours, or more like mine?
So I was sitting and thinking of what you said here, and how you communicated your Te list much more directly and clearly than I did. Your really interesting Te list. When you asked it of me there was no hesitation in me knowing just where that "need to know" seems to focus for me, but I did struggle a bit with just how to explain it. I did the best I could.
Now today I was just reflecting on how my list is just not as clear(?) as yours. Was that the right word? No. Then I realized - mine is more hidden than yours!
Look at your list. That doesn't look like any hidden agenda. Its your life.
It looks just like Te is something you VALUE.
Usually Delta NFs, or myself especially, don't do research. I have many many SEE friends who say "research!!!" at the slightest doubts about the fact or the interest of something.
Ne is uncovering the possibility the hidden aspect beyond the physical stuff. Physical stuff is Se. I would say I explore more with my own hands. Like you try to cook something new. It's about the newness in something. For example. Many will cook pizza, I will try to do it in a pan instead of a stone to figure out if that might work. I've done a lot of these new explorations and get a lot of interest from my Ne valuing SLI dad who will stand by me and ask "what are you trying that with?" and "why are you trying that with that?" and his realism will give me doubts but he'll always be interested and curious about what it is that I do.
You said you've cooked new things because old things bother you. That's what objects kind of become to Ne valuers. Unlike Se, we don't really endear in them and want to hold on or get more of them, we just want to get rid of all of them.
-
Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
Enneagram 5 (wings either 4 or 6)?
I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE
Okay, yes, I got confused and forgot my own example ...blah blah .... her telling me how he made her feel ... blah blah ... answered your question properly.... blah blah yawn
Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason
Yes, I definitely am. Going to get my Mom situated...blah blah ...errands... tonight or tomorrow... blaah blah ...1 Q at a time.
@Geminatronix, why did "like" these posts? These have to be the two most boring posts anyone has written all week. Or month.
That was Galen's response to you.
I am not asking you to agree with what he wrote.
I am asking you to objectively read what he wrote.
Galen's response further clarified what Galen considered important.
He is referring to world views, challenging world views,
and expanding world views.
He sees polluted knowledge as being knowledge which is factually incorrect.
"World Views" is a global and abstract concept.
Not once did his post reference physical sensations.
Go ahead and reread it. That is why I provided its quote for you.
To make it easy for you to check.
Do you understand that Galen was referring to World Views,
and factually incorrect knowledge, not referring to filtering out physical sensations?
Do you understand point 3?
It's important that you understand this,
because it will be referred to later.
If you do not understand this,
You won't understand later.
Got it Anndelise, @Galen is talking about world views not physical sensations.
Hey Ann, do you think its any hidden that Kim values Te? Or is it something a person might be able to notice? easily?
Violence is pretty much always disturbing to me. I have issues squishing bugs. I don't let my sister tell me about her medical experiences if it involves lots of blood. And you'll get a flat refusal from me if you ask me to eat most Asian seafood.
A friend recently showed me the movie Pulp Fiction. I spent a third of it hiding my head under a blanket. The next night he decided Hair would be a better choice for my sensibilities.
There are times when I feel I should watch and/or be aware of violence. Not because I enjoy it, but more that I don't want to hide from reality. People, living creatures, really do get hurt and killed. Part of it is that if/when I ever have to deal with that in real life, I kind of want to know that I could still be able to think and function and be of use, and not just wilt from the horror. And, also, when I see violence it sort of becomes a part of me / I am a part of it (that's not clear, sorry) and while it's hard it's also kind of like a tribute to those who do suffer, that they are not forgotten or alone, that someone is willing to feel with and for them.
Speaking of violence, it kind of annoys me when in superhero or action movies, while they're doing their big battles with the supervillians, all the buildings and things get smashed. I mean, who has to go clean that up afterward? What if that was my car you just stepped on?!
Anyway, I don't like horror movies, and tend to avoid depictions of violence. It makes me uncomfortable at best.
As for porn and portrayals of sex... hm. Like others have said, to me porn dehumanizes people. And there's a strong connection between porn and the sex/slave trade. So from the moral standpoint, it's not something I like.
From a more physical standpoint... I dunno, I guess it depends. When done right (particularly when my moral standards aren't getting too violated), lovemaking can be enjoyable to watch, but then I end up just wanting things like that for myself and getting a frustrated feeling when I can't. It can also seem too much like invading privacy even if it is just acting.
Tell me if this is too stereotypical. Wouldn't want that. I'll try to throw something unexpected or deviant in, or something. After all, this is only a few paragraphs on subjects that can be nice and complex. Plus it's me I'm talking about. So many questions can have so many answers.
Oh, to find you in dreams - mixing prior, analog, and never-beens... facts slip and turn and change with little lucidity. except the strong, permeating reality of emotion.
Got it Anndelise, @Galen is talking about world views not physical sensations.
Great.
Ok, next.
Originally Posted by point 4
As a reminder, I had written:
Originally Posted by anndelise
See no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil...so we can pretend evil doesn't exist.
I grew up around people who filtered out experiences they didn't want to consider/feel.
This filtering helped them ignore experiences beyond their own.
It helped them ignore what others might be going through.
And that filtering allowed them to allow horrible things happen to innocent people....without feeling guilty about it.
This seems contradictory to the enfp's psychologist-oriented nature, and reporter nature.
Lacking diverse experiences, even vicarious experiences, leaves very little to report on, very limited ability to understand problems and their potential solutions, as well as a very limited base for understanding diverse psychologies.
Sounds like a kind of hell, to me.
4) note that not once did I reference physical sensations.
This was my response to you.
Right now, I am not asking you to agree with that post.
Right now, I am asking you to objectively read that post.
My response here clarified what I consider important. The first part, about evil:
Ignoring 'evil' actions helps the ignorer not feel bad when 'evil' actions happen.
Ignoring 'evil' actions leads to allowing 'evil' actions to happen to innocent people.
The second part, about enfp as Psychologist/Reporter:
NeFi are called the socion's Psychologist/Reporter.
The Psychologist/Reporter type draws from their database of knowledge to help them understand and help with
people's psychologies, problems,
and solutions.
One's database can be expanded beyond personal experience,
by accessing stories people have told the Psychologist/Reporter.
Diverse experiences
leads to a diverse database
leads to greater ability to help.
Limiting experiences
leads to an impoverished database
leads to narrowed ability to help.
A Psychologist/Reporter
drawing from an impoverished database
reduces their effectiveness as a Psychologist/Reporter.
---- Summary:
I wrote of diversification vs impoverished databases
which assists the Psychologist/Reporter type to help with psychologies,
problems,
and solutions.
None of those refer to physical sensations.
Point 4 asks you to "note that not once did I reference physical sensations."
Do you understand that I was writing about databases
of psychologies, problems,
and solutions; not about physical sensations?
Do you understand point 4?
It's important that you understand this,
because it will be referred to later.
If you do not understand this,
You won't understand later.
There are times when I feel I should watch and/or be aware of violence. Not because I enjoy it, but more that I don't want to hide from reality. People, living creatures, really do get hurt and killed. Part of it is that if/when I ever have to deal with that in real life, I kind of want to know that I could still be able to think and function and be of use, and not just wilt from the horror. And, also, when I see violence it sort of becomes a part of me / I am a part of it (that's not clear, sorry) and while it's hard it's also kind of like a tribute to those who do suffer, that they are not forgotten or alone, that someone is willing to feel with and for them.
I really like this part of your response.
So many people who have suffered have been expected to suffer in silence, because other people don't want to imagine/feel such things. This further adds to the trauma that they already went through...or continue to go through. And paying someone to sympathize? Doesn't help alleviate much of the feelings of isolation.
There is also a sense of judgment against the sufferer. The sufferer is often viewed as broken and not worthy of affection, time, etc. So it helps sufferers to feel that at least someone isn't judging them as broken and unworthy.
Speaking of violence, it kind of annoys me when in superhero or action movies, while they're doing their big battles with the supervillians, all the buildings and things get smashed. I mean, who has to go clean that up afterward? What if that was my car you just stepped on?!
Omgosh, I do think about this. It's really no wonder that superheroes are often treated as a bad guy by the city/cops. The amount of damage they do must cost loads of money the city didn't have. And the individuals who got screwed out of their car, home, job, etc?? Argh. Often I think the supervillian on the loose was a much better alternative than the damage from catching him/her.
This was my response to you.
Right now, I am not asking you to agree with that post.
Right now, I am asking you to objectively read that post.
I did, and I see where I got turned off, in the first sentence, you wrote:
"See no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil...so we can pretend evil doesn't exist."
No, that is not why I turn my back on extraneous ugly, ugliness for no purpose.The world is full of sin and I cannot avoid it.But when I have a choice,I want to focus on what is good and right and true and beautiful. That's what I want to fill my head with when I have a choice. Its extraneous ugliness I don't like, ugliness without a purpose. I have said this before, but please remember this time. The bolded part. I understand your view of me is filtered by the people you grew up with who did a similar thing for their own reasons. But I not anything like them. When bad things happen to innocent people it hits me very hard. It disturbs me to watch it in drama because there is enough if this in real life. I don't need a drama when I can see it around me every day. I don't want to get hardened to it either by watching it in drama and learning not to feel bad about it because we should feel bad about it.
So I when I read that I think, "Ann has no idea how I experience life. The assumptions she makes about my motives are so far off the mark." And I feel I am being ranted at for having thoughts or motives I never would have. I feel I have already explained my thinking well, yet you are here comparing me to someone not at all like me. I only conclude we just can't have a meeting of minds.
But maybe we can if we try.
Originally Posted by anndelise
My response here clarified what I consider important. The first part, about evil:
Ignoring 'evil' actions helps the ignorer not feel bad when 'evil' actions happen.
Ignoring 'evil' actions leads to allowing 'evil' actions to happen to innocent people.
I don't agree with this leap at all. Not in my own experience. Perhaps for someone else with some completely other way of looking at life. At least if you are talking about drama about evil actions. That I ignore if it is meaningless. Yes, I will watch Schindlers List more times in my life because there is much to know and learn from it of great value. I will watch other things too if I feel they have a good enough educational value for me.
Opposite of what you say here, I feel that watching a lot of violence will harden my mind to it.
Notice I said I feel that way for me. I know myself and I not only take care of how I feel but I take care of what will make me a better person. Watching extraneous violence is not taking care of me and would not make me a better person. Every person is different. I totally accept that some, perhaps you, watch that stuff that would make me a worse person and would make you a better person, as you have a different approach to it. Or more experienced Se. Or something.
Isn't amazing how God made us all so different? Different is okay. There is not just one right way to be.
Originally Posted by anndelise
The second part, about enfp as Psychologist/Reporter:
NeFi are called the socion's Psychologist/Reporter.
The Psychologist/Reporter type draws from their database of knowledge to help them understand and help with
people's psychologies, problems,
and solutions.
Yes
Originally Posted by anndelise
One's database can be expanded beyond personal experience,
by accessing stories people have told the Psychologist/Reporter.
Yes.
So true. Enfps do this and INFjs are excellent also in gleaning info from people's stories.
But I do not see where seeking to expand one's database is a particular ENFp trait.
Originally Posted by anndelise
Diverse experiences
leads to a diverse database
leads to greater ability to help..
Yes. That follows. Its true that some types seek diverse experiences and some types seek to expand their database for sure. I don't think this is a particular ENFp trait. Though there have been plenty of times in my life I have sought to do just that. But I think that is just all a part of the changing seasons of life. A time to reap, a time to so, a time to plant, a time to harvest...
Originally Posted by anndelise
Limiting experiences
leads to an impoverished database
leads to narrowed ability to help..
NO.
I disagree with that premise.
I will agree it "can". At certain times and circumstances. Other times, having no filters can limit one's database. You have heard of being a jack of all trades and master of none?
Originally Posted by anndelise
A Psychologist/Reporter
drawing from an impoverished database
reduces their effectiveness as a Psychologist/Reporter.
Originally Posted by anndelise
.
Psychologists I know can glean a lot of info from one meeting of a person or one scenario.
Think about contemplation. This is a huge discipline that I only have scratched the surface of knowing about. I have changed my Christian tradition so I have been blessed to know by life experience some divergent ways to grow spiritually. I used to attend retreats and come home stuffed with knowledge. I would prolific notes, bring them home and reread what I learned. Sometimes they would have book fairs and I would take books home and learn more on the subject or related subjects. Well was I shocked when I learned about Ignatius retreats, based on the Spiritual Exercises of St. Ignatius Loyola, the founder of the eminent [and sometimes notorious in this last century] Jesuits [and Pope Francis is here to show us bring us back to the spirituality of the Jesuit founders]. One of the aspects of an Ignatius retreat is your spiritual director gives you one phrase or scripture - often an extremely short one, a part of a sentence, and you hole yourself up alone and contemplate that ONE PHRASE. For days! In silence! No other persons except those you see as you all eat your meals in silence, and your one-on-one with your spiritual director who asks you what you learned. Often nothing fora bit and he just sends you back for more of the same. This is how people grow in depth. Ignatius was one of the greatest spiritual minds of all time, and he knows, there is power in this.
On my bucket list is to read St. Theresa of Avila's Interior Castles. It is a mighty work of a spiritual giant, a Doctor of the Church. It is a how to book on reading the loftiest heights of spirituality and truly expanding one's mind. And how will I ever be able to achieve being able to follow such a work? One preparation is to empty my min of the extraneous. I htink this is a common practice of greats in many areas of discipline.
I am sure you have a point about closing ones mind to some things leads to closed mindedness in some circumstances. But I know from experience that closing ones mind to some things leads to a great expansion of the mind in other circumstances.
Its why people fast. Or live simple. To grow their minds.
Originally Posted by anndelise
---- Summary:
I wrote of diversification vs impoverished databases
which assists the Psychologist/Reporter type to help with psychologies,
problems,
and solutions.
None of those refer to physical sensations.
Point 4 asks you to "note that not once did I reference physical sensations.".
Got it. I do see where I got that wrong.
Originally Posted by anndelise
Do you understand that I was writing about databases.
Yes.
Originally Posted by anndelise
of psychologies, problems,
and solutions; not about physical sensations?
Do you understand point 4?
It's important that you understand this,
because it will be referred to later.
If you do not understand this,
You won't understand later.
@Geminatronix, why did "like" these posts? These have to be the two most boring posts anyone has written all week. Or month.
Use your Ne Eliza, the info is all there for you.
Now this is a story all about how, my type got changed, turned upside down. Just wait for a minute and watch chatbox right there, & I'll tell how Gem became the moderator with blue hair.
In typology central friended and praised, on the picture thread was where she spent most her days. Chilling out, selfies, relaxing all cool, And all typing some people and getting them schooled.
When a couple of girls who were up to no good, Started annoying her & her friends in the forumhood, She got in one little flame war & got pissed off & said 'I'm moving in with that exboyfriend in the forum with the socionics toffs.
So Gem pulls up to the forum for a year without being a hater, And yells to typocentral 'Yo creeps! Smell Ya later', Became a mod in her kingdom she was finally there, To sit on her throne as the mod with blue hair.
I also don't know why you liked those posts. I think you're making up something and expect people to use their "Ne"
Ne isn't reading and figuring out some person's intentions.
-
Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
Enneagram 5 (wings either 4 or 6)?
I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE
I also don't know why you liked those posts. I think you're making up something and expect people to use their "Ne"
Ne isn't reading and figuring out some person's intentions.
Ne is very good at looking behind immediate information and seeing the meaning weather it is in relation to an idea or person, this is why psychology & journalism suit so well. I saw progress of the situation. This is what I liked, not particularly the details of what Eliza was saying. I'm sure there were other Ne users on this forum that would have gleaned that possibility.
Now this is a story all about how, my type got changed, turned upside down. Just wait for a minute and watch chatbox right there, & I'll tell how Gem became the moderator with blue hair.
In typology central friended and praised, on the picture thread was where she spent most her days. Chilling out, selfies, relaxing all cool, And all typing some people and getting them schooled.
When a couple of girls who were up to no good, Started annoying her & her friends in the forumhood, She got in one little flame war & got pissed off & said 'I'm moving in with that exboyfriend in the forum with the socionics toffs.
So Gem pulls up to the forum for a year without being a hater, And yells to typocentral 'Yo creeps! Smell Ya later', Became a mod in her kingdom she was finally there, To sit on her throne as the mod with blue hair.
So I when I read that I think, "Ann has no idea how I experience life. The assumptions she makes about my motives are so far off the mark." And I feel I am being ranted at for having thoughts or motives I never would have. I feel I have already explained my thinking well, yet you are here comparing me to someone not at all like me. I only conclude we just can't have a meeting of minds.
But maybe we can if we try.
Like you have no idea how I experience life?
Like the assumptions you make about my motives?
How the motives you attribute to me are so far off the mark?
Like how the motives you attribute to other NeFi on this forum are so far off the mark?
How you make us feel like we are being ranted at (about..between you and Maritsa)
for having thoughts or motives we don't have?
Or would have to be seriously pushed to have?
We explain our thinking well, yet you insist on comparing us to something that is not us at all.
You keep comparing us to SEE, yet we prove over and over and over again that we are IEE.
And that is why you keep failing to have a meeting of minds with the IEE on this forum.
But I do not see where seeking to expand one's database is a particular ENFp trait.
If you cannot see how a diverse database is important to
a) getting to the essence of a situation,
b) having a variety of information on hand to pass on for others' consideration as they need/want it,
c) perceiving the possibilities at hand,
Then maybe you don't have NeFi's "need to know".
Maybe you are not a Psychologist/Reporter type.
It's called Te Mobilizing. You know it as "Te Hidden Agenda".
It's what mobilizes us, what activates us.
It is a driving factor in so much of what we do.
There isn't much "hidden" about it, though it might be an unconscious prompt for pursuit of Te information.
It is a 2D element, which means that Te norms/rules are sought after. (Aka "facts, trivia")
If the subject is of particular interest, as in life long goal,
then the person might utilize some 3D info (how the Te rules/norms differ in a particular situation).
Te hidden agenda for NeFi involves:
Accumulating people's stories and experiences into a mental database,
and sharing freely the stored knowledge/trivia;
which can help self or other handle a problem/solution
more efficiently
and more productively. Like a Psychologist/Reporter.
A diverse database also aids the Psychologist/Reporter type to get to the truer essence of a situation,
its underlying factors involved.
Building this database naturally expands the world of possibilities. Te feeds Ne feeds Te feeds Ne....
The information may never be accessed for application/use,
but that does not stop the need, the drive, to collect it.
Te hidden agenda for SeFi involves:
Mining for information
which is pertinent to a current activity or goal;
which can help their current actions (or near future actions) be more directed, efficient, and productive.
(In part, being a Decisive and Process type,
they are more mobilized and focused on the present activity,
and so their search for knowledge will reflect that immediate mobilization and focus.)
In other words, the information needs to have immediate applicability,
else it's wasting SeFi's time.
Give them just enough info they need so they don't lose their mobilization/focus,
but no more lest you impede their progress. Te feeds Se feeds Te feeds Se...
I forgot to add a bit more to it. Like how Te HA drives NeFi to try to clarify their thinking and communications. And how Te HA drives SeFi to abstract facts/knowledge/trivia from their physical actions/experiences for communication efforts.
But it still comes to Te feeds Pe feeds Te feeds Pe.
Eliza, you might be interested in the idea that Ne feeds Fe feeds Ne feeds Fe.
Do your ideas and inspirations feed your efforts towards positive feelings,
and your positive feelings feed your ideas and inspirations?
It seems that it would.
More precisely:
The perception filters you use would feed your desired feelings and 'cleanliness' of mind/spirit...
While the desired feelings and desire for 'cleanliness' of spirit/mind would feed your filters of perception.
Which fits a LOT about what you keep saying in this thread about your filters.
As well as why your "hidden" agenda doesn't seem to mesh well with the Psychologist/Reporter's.
You have heard of being a jack of all trades and master of none?
An example of what I would block out is someone describing their sadistic brand of sex, involving, i.e., battering,
Originally Posted by Eliza
SLI's daughter, for instance, telling us, "Look at that blood on the wall (of her bedroom, which SLI and I are cleaning, sanding, painting while she chats). You know, there is a really kinky story behind that. When [Scumbag Boyfriend] was living here..."
Originally Posted by Eliza
When my married friend was having an affair while still married, I filtered out of my mind what she was actually doing with the guy and tried to see and understand her instead. What drove her to this, what I believe I would never do, but had I walked in her shoes maybe I would have. In order to see her I filtered out the actuality of what she was doing, the immoral part, from my mind.
5) note that these could easily be interpreted as referring to the physical sensations and/or the actual physical acts
. . . a) "sadistic brand of sex"
. . . b) "there's a really kinky story behind it. When [] was living here..."
. . . c) "what she was actually doing with the guy"
. . . d) "what she was actually doing, the immoral part"
This point is a little more complicated. None of the following questions here contain judgment of right/wrong.
I am merely asking you to objectively consider the given possible interpretation.
Go slow. Answer one question before moving on to the next question.
a) Can you imagine how filtering out "sadistic brand of sex"
might have been interpreted as
filtering out the details of the actual physical sensations/actions of their story?
b) Can you imagine how filtering out "the kinky story behind the blood on the wall"
might have been interpreted as
filtering out the details of the actual physical sensations/actions of her story?
c) Can you imagine how filtering out "what she was actually doing with the guy"
might have been interpreted as
filtering out the details of the actual physical sensations/actions of her story?
d) Can you imagine how filtering out "what she was actually doing, the immoral part"
might have been interpreted as
filtering out the details of the actual physical sensations/actions of her story?
And slighly different:
e) Can you imagine how filtering out "what she was actually doing, the immoral part"
might have also been interpreted as including
sneaking away to meet up with the guy,
the lies she told her husband,
her emotional turmoil over her "immoral actions",
her fears of the affair being disovered,
etc
Once again, I am not judging you for wanting to filter out details about actual physical sensations/actions.
I am merely asking,
can you imagine that interpretation as a plausible interpretation?
For a)?
For b)?
For c)?
For d)?
And can you imagine e) as a plausible interpretation of 'filtering out her immoral actions'?
A friend recently showed me the movie Pulp Fiction. I spent a third of it hiding my head under a blanket. The next night he decided Hair would be a better choice for my sensibilities.
There are times when I feel I should watch and/or be aware of violence. Not because I enjoy it, but more that I don't want to hide from reality. People, living creatures, really do get hurt and killed. Part of it is that if/when I ever have to deal with that in real life, I kind of want to know that I could still be able to think and function and be of use, and not just wilt from the horror. And, also, when I see violence it sort of becomes a part of me / I am a part of it (that's not clear, sorry) and while it's hard it's also kind of like a tribute to those who do suffer, that they are not forgotten or alone, that someone is willing to feel with and for them.
Had a boyfriend once who insisted on watching The Shining at my apartment because he wouldn't make it home before it started and didn't want to miss it. It was late at night and a one-room place so had no where else to go once I realised how bad it was. He wouldn't turn it off, wouldn't even turn the sound off since that would "take away from the experience". I spent most of it hiding under a blanket trying to block the sound out, which he thought was "cute". I should've just turned off, of course since it was my place but didn't want to upset him and really didn't want to spend the night alone after that anyway.
Agree that it's important not to turn away from real suffering and not to become desensitized to it. Others see it differently I'm sure, but violence for entertainment seems to me a way of devaluing the impact it has on people. (It's definitely possible to treat it respectfully in entertainment media where it doesn't have that effect, but when the purpose of it is entertainment I have trouble seeing it as not disrespectful.)
Originally Posted by anndelise
I really like this part of your response.
So many people who have suffered have been expected to suffer in silence, because other people don't want to imagine/feel such things. This further adds to the trauma that they already went through...or continue to go through. And paying someone to sympathize? Doesn't help alleviate much of the feelings of isolation.
There is also a sense of judgment against the sufferer. The sufferer is often viewed as broken and not worthy of affection, time, etc. So it helps sufferers to feel that at least someone isn't judging them as broken and unworthy.
This. Sympathy in an artificial relationship mediated by money is no substitute for real relationships but we want to sanitize everything. Death, pain and suffering is to be dealt with by professionals so the rest of us can go about our business and people suffering illness, injury or trauma are stigmatized (especially if there's a mental or psychological component) and expected to "get it fixed" as if they were the problem and not the situation that caused it. Must be kept hidden and life must go on as if nothing has ever been wrong. Even something as universal as grief is pathologized if not 'resolved' within a culturally defined acceptable timelimit.
Ne is very good at looking behind immediate information and seeing the meaning weather it is in relation to an idea or person, this is why psychology & journalism suit so well. I saw progress of the situation. This is what I liked, not particularly the details of what Eliza was saying. I'm sure there were other Ne users on this forum that would have gleaned that possibility.
Any person and type can do guesswork and be keen about the what is being said. But, you said you "liked" them because you saw progress of the situation? What does that mean?
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Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
Enneagram 5 (wings either 4 or 6)?
I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE
I did, and I see where I got turned off, in the first sentence, you wrote:
I don't know why you bother. She just wants to dissect everything you write. She still owes you 5 apologies as if it's worth anything real.
cozy up to some tea with me
-
Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
Enneagram 5 (wings either 4 or 6)?
I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE
I don't know why you bother. She just wants to dissect everything you write. She still owes you 5 apologies as if it's worth anything real.
Lol, you are doing the dissecting, I just said I liked the progress actually i think i clicked constructive rather than like. Lordy, please stop with the us and them thing. Also, no more question answering for you. Until you decide to converse with me. At the moment this communication is all one sided. I do prefer to talk with Eliza and actually I appreciate what she is saying, how she is responding, she is really trying at the moment so please let her continue. I understand you enjoy the drama for your martyr acts, but I am trying to listen so just be quiet a while. I will be happy to resume talking with you when you really are interested in listening as well as stating.
Now this is a story all about how, my type got changed, turned upside down. Just wait for a minute and watch chatbox right there, & I'll tell how Gem became the moderator with blue hair.
In typology central friended and praised, on the picture thread was where she spent most her days. Chilling out, selfies, relaxing all cool, And all typing some people and getting them schooled.
When a couple of girls who were up to no good, Started annoying her & her friends in the forumhood, She got in one little flame war & got pissed off & said 'I'm moving in with that exboyfriend in the forum with the socionics toffs.
So Gem pulls up to the forum for a year without being a hater, And yells to typocentral 'Yo creeps! Smell Ya later', Became a mod in her kingdom she was finally there, To sit on her throne as the mod with blue hair.
Lol, you are doing the dissecting, I just said I liked the progress actually i think i clicked constructive rather than like. Lordy, please stop with the us and them thing. Also, no more question answering for you. Until you decide to converse with me. At the moment this communication is all one sided. I do prefer to talk with Eliza and actually I appreciate what she is saying, how she is responding, she is really trying at the moment so please let her continue. I understand you enjoy the drama for your martyr acts, but I am trying to listen so just be quiet a while. I will be happy to resume talking with you when you really are interested in listening as well as stating.
The dissecting wasn't for you. Nice job on the borrow and steal part. No conversations with you. You aren't worth it to me because you're sticking hard and fast to your perception and it's not easy to change that with I see that in your conversations (talking about ) with people all the time.
-
Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
Enneagram 5 (wings either 4 or 6)?
I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE
The dissecting wasn't for you. Nice job on the borrow and steal part. No conversations with you. You aren't worth it to me because you're sticking hard and fast to your perception and it's not easy to change that with I see that in your conversations (talking about ) with people all the time.
Yes, this is the difficulty I have with you, you seem to have a skewed perception of what Se and Ne are. Just please stop rushing in to 'save' Eliza all the time and allow her some space to converse with other people, she is an adult.
Now this is a story all about how, my type got changed, turned upside down. Just wait for a minute and watch chatbox right there, & I'll tell how Gem became the moderator with blue hair.
In typology central friended and praised, on the picture thread was where she spent most her days. Chilling out, selfies, relaxing all cool, And all typing some people and getting them schooled.
When a couple of girls who were up to no good, Started annoying her & her friends in the forumhood, She got in one little flame war & got pissed off & said 'I'm moving in with that exboyfriend in the forum with the socionics toffs.
So Gem pulls up to the forum for a year without being a hater, And yells to typocentral 'Yo creeps! Smell Ya later', Became a mod in her kingdom she was finally there, To sit on her throne as the mod with blue hair.
Yes, this is the difficulty I have with you, you seem to have a skewed perception of what Se and Ne are. Just please stop rushing in to 'save' Eliza all the time and allow her some space to converse with other people, she is an adult.
sure express your frustration even though you asked for def of functions and I gave you them. Denial
-
Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
Enneagram 5 (wings either 4 or 6)?
I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE
sure express your frustration even though you asked for def of functions and I gave you them. Denial
Lol i'm not frustrated, I'm pretty content. You gave me nothing Maritsa except a link with poorly translated descriptions, I did compliment them none the less but really they do not explain Ne or Se and certainly not in way similar to how you explain things.... if you could link me to descriptions of Se and Ne that you consider valid that would be very nice.
Now this is a story all about how, my type got changed, turned upside down. Just wait for a minute and watch chatbox right there, & I'll tell how Gem became the moderator with blue hair.
In typology central friended and praised, on the picture thread was where she spent most her days. Chilling out, selfies, relaxing all cool, And all typing some people and getting them schooled.
When a couple of girls who were up to no good, Started annoying her & her friends in the forumhood, She got in one little flame war & got pissed off & said 'I'm moving in with that exboyfriend in the forum with the socionics toffs.
So Gem pulls up to the forum for a year without being a hater, And yells to typocentral 'Yo creeps! Smell Ya later', Became a mod in her kingdom she was finally there, To sit on her throne as the mod with blue hair.
Lol i'm not frustrated, I'm pretty content. You gave me nothing Maritsa except a link with poorly translated descriptions, I did compliment them none the less but really they do not explain Ne or Se and certainly not in way similar to how you explain things.... if you could link me to descriptions of Se and Ne that you consider valid that would be very nice.
Te and Se are mostly displayed by a neck arching forwards. If your face is round you have Se, if it is long you have Te. If your neck is arched backwards then you have Ti and Si; round face Si, long face Ti. Chins and shit are where you find all the other functions. For example Ne has a chiselled chin; or in the case of the golden EII an 'elegant' chin.
Te and Se are mostly displayed by a neck arching forwards. If your face is round you have Se, if it is long you have Te. If your neck is arched backwards then you have Ti and Si; round face Si, long face Ti. Chins and shit are where you find all the other functions. For example Ne has a chiselled chin; or in the case of the golden EII an 'elegant' chin.
Doesn't it all make sense now?
What it doesn't?
I have an elegant neck! What does that mean?
Now this is a story all about how, my type got changed, turned upside down. Just wait for a minute and watch chatbox right there, & I'll tell how Gem became the moderator with blue hair.
In typology central friended and praised, on the picture thread was where she spent most her days. Chilling out, selfies, relaxing all cool, And all typing some people and getting them schooled.
When a couple of girls who were up to no good, Started annoying her & her friends in the forumhood, She got in one little flame war & got pissed off & said 'I'm moving in with that exboyfriend in the forum with the socionics toffs.
So Gem pulls up to the forum for a year without being a hater, And yells to typocentral 'Yo creeps! Smell Ya later', Became a mod in her kingdom she was finally there, To sit on her throne as the mod with blue hair.
Nothing Socionics doesn't factor in the elegantness of your neck.
My neck is sad.
Now this is a story all about how, my type got changed, turned upside down. Just wait for a minute and watch chatbox right there, & I'll tell how Gem became the moderator with blue hair.
In typology central friended and praised, on the picture thread was where she spent most her days. Chilling out, selfies, relaxing all cool, And all typing some people and getting them schooled.
When a couple of girls who were up to no good, Started annoying her & her friends in the forumhood, She got in one little flame war & got pissed off & said 'I'm moving in with that exboyfriend in the forum with the socionics toffs.
So Gem pulls up to the forum for a year without being a hater, And yells to typocentral 'Yo creeps! Smell Ya later', Became a mod in her kingdom she was finally there, To sit on her throne as the mod with blue hair.
I think @HandiAce is cool woth zombies...maybe gore too then?
Now this is a story all about how, my type got changed, turned upside down. Just wait for a minute and watch chatbox right there, & I'll tell how Gem became the moderator with blue hair.
In typology central friended and praised, on the picture thread was where she spent most her days. Chilling out, selfies, relaxing all cool, And all typing some people and getting them schooled.
When a couple of girls who were up to no good, Started annoying her & her friends in the forumhood, She got in one little flame war & got pissed off & said 'I'm moving in with that exboyfriend in the forum with the socionics toffs.
So Gem pulls up to the forum for a year without being a hater, And yells to typocentral 'Yo creeps! Smell Ya later', Became a mod in her kingdom she was finally there, To sit on her throne as the mod with blue hair.
Like you have no idea how I experience life?
Like the assumptions you make about my motives?
How the motives you attribute to me are so far off the mark?
Like how the motives you attribute to other NeFi on this forum are so far off the mark?
How you make us feel like we are being ranted at (about..between you and Maritsa)
for having thoughts or motives we don't have?
Or would have to be seriously pushed to have?
Wow. I would say I have experienced the same from you; I don't know if that's news to you or not. Also Maritsa has, particularly in terms of people talking about her, which I saw here and hated and even though I knew only bits of the history I STILL did not think it right, and I decided to speak up on what I agreed and esteemed about Maritsa even though I could see it would draw some of that ire on me. Because it is just and right to do it.
However, I am very glad you wrote out all that concerning how I have offended you because if you had asked me to enumerate how I offended you I would have not had much to say except that you are annoyed I have a different idea what type you are. Which leads me to what about freedom of thought and speech, and why can't we just all get along?
But I really did not know all that and I will take more care in the future about assuming your motives (and other "NeFi" that I intuit are, IMO, SeFi). I will really take care and please feel free to point it out if I do again.
Originally Posted by anndelise
We explain our thinking well,
Well, "well" is in the eye of the beholder. Do you think I explain "well"? ...Perhaps its the difference between "explaining it well" and "convincing".
Originally Posted by anndelise
yet you insist on comparing us to something that is not us at all.
You keep comparing us to SEE, yet we prove over and over and over again that we are IEE.
And that is why you keep failing to have a meeting of minds with the IEE on this forum.
This is the part I don't get. It feels to me that you are putting up an ultimatum. "If you will not be be convinced that I am NeFi not SeFi then I am going to retaliate by getting EXTREMELY angry and hostile to you. If you want to be on friendly terms with me you MUST be in agreement with my self-typing.
It makes me feel I have to lie to myself and others in order to be on friendly terms with you. I just feel stuck. I want to flee the conversation going nowhere and just get along.
Maybe I am all wrong about my perception, in the blue part above?'
Originally Posted by anndelise
If you cannot see how a diverse database is important to
a) getting to the essence of a situation,
b) having a variety of information on hand to pass on for others' consideration as they need/want it,
c) perceiving the possibilities at hand,
Then maybe you don't have NeFi's "need to know".
Maybe you are not a Psychologist/Reporter type.
Okay, okay I get it. Yes, I do collect extraneous info. New info on topics related to my interests especially excellent info is endlessly interesting to me.
I was just confused as the categories of interesting info to collect seem very different for me and for those I am perceiving are SEE not IEE.
Originally Posted by anndelise
It's called Te Mobilizing. You know it as "Te Hidden Agenda".
It's what mobilizes us, what activates us.
It is a driving factor in so much of what we do.
There isn't much "hidden" about it, though it might be an unconscious prompt for pursuit of Te information.
It is a 2D element, which means that Te norms/rules are sought after. (Aka "facts, trivia")
If the subject is of particular interest, as in life long goal,
then the person might utilize some 3D info (how the Te rules/norms differ in a particular situation).
Intersting/informative explanation.
Originally Posted by anndelise
Te hidden agenda for NeFi involves:
Accumulating people's stories and experiences into a mental database,
and sharing freely the stored knowledge/trivia;
which can help self or other handle a problem/solution
more efficiently
and more productively. Like a Psychologist/Reporter.
A diverse database also aids the Psychologist/Reporter type to get to the truer essence of a situation,
its underlying factors involved.
Building this database naturally expands the world of possibilities. Te feeds Ne feeds Te feeds Ne....
The information may never be accessed for application/use,
but that does not stop the need, the drive, to collect it.
Te hidden agenda for SeFi involves:
Mining for information
which is pertinent to a current activity or goal;
which can help their current actions (or near future actions) be more directed, efficient, and productive.
(In part, being a Decisive and Process type,
they are more mobilized and focused on the present activity,
and so their search for knowledge will reflect that immediate mobilization and focus.)
In other words, the information needs to have immediate applicability,
else it's wasting SeFi's time.
Give them just enough info they need so they don't lose their mobilization/focus,
but no more lest you impede their progress. Te feeds Se feeds Te feeds Se...
Very interesting and needs another look-at and more careful thought from me, later. I have started two posts at once and want to respond to your other next and have a must-do list today... But at least this time I am not distracted because of the sort of thing I bolded just above, but because of my own list of stuff I need to be doing now. I am stealing time from that to continue this conversation.
Originally Posted by anndelise
I forgot to add a bit more to it. Like how Te HA drives NeFi to try to clarify their thinking and communications. And how Te HA drives SeFi to abstract facts/knowledge/trivia from their physical actions/experiences for communication efforts.
Intersting.
Originally Posted by anndelise
But it still comes to Te feeds Pe feeds Te feeds Pe.
Hmm. Pe -Perceiving Extroverts?
Originally Posted by anndelise
Eliza, you might be interested in the idea that Ne feeds Fe feeds Ne feeds Fe.
Do your ideas and inspirations feed your efforts towards positive feelings,
and your positive feelings feed your ideas and inspirations?
It seems that it would.
Yes.
Originally Posted by anndelise
More precisely:
The perception filters you use would feed your desired feelings and 'cleanliness' of mind/spirit...
While the desired feelings and desire for 'cleanliness' of spirit/mind would feed your filters of perception.
Yes.
Which fits a LOT about what you keep saying in this thread about your filters.
As well as why your "hidden" agenda doesn't seem to mesh well with the Psychologist/Reporter's.
[/QUOTE] Interesting.
Originally Posted by anndelise
This is exactly a common complaint about NeFi.
Very interesting thoughts. I think I have learned that when Ann is making NO SENSE AT ALL then just hang in there, because she does have something...
Oops I am feeling like I will not give point 5 justice and may not get to point 5 til tomorrow.
This sort of thing needs slow thinking meaning much time spent on the reply. Just don't want you to think I am ignoring it, just putting it off.
I don't know why you bother. She just wants to dissect everything you write. She still owes you 5 apologies as if it's worth anything real.
cozy up to some tea with me
I'd love some tea. Hugs are nice too. My kitchen is not tidy right now, so yours, please. Tidy kitchen is part of the experience.
As to apologies I don't ask for them, much of the time. Certain trespasses, like when when my SLE son did a little vindictive thing when he was annoyed this weekend in response to my just action, I desire an apology for. I use to get outraged when crossed by him in a particularly disrrespetful way (which comes about when his anger flares up) but then usually, I realized on reflection, I don't always get an apology. This time I practiced self control over my anger and kept quiet and calm. And ten minutes later he emerged from his room (whence he had stormed off to) just to say, "Sorry for being a d***". Now that is not how I taught him to say sorry but I sure did appreciate the gesture.
So from those an dear to me I would like an apology for certain kinds of offenses is important to me. Others, when there is no close relationship, most often I accept the unspoken completely un-referred to one that I perceive if things are able to continue on in peace. That really works; I learned that years ago from a workplace incident.
Also as to this back and forth with Ann, I am aware that if in fact she is your Supervisor, you experience conversation with her a lot differently than I do.
Originally Posted by Kim
Reply With Quote
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(as per tcaudilllg)
I see that in your conversations (talking about 
Which leads me to what about freedom of thought and speech, and why can't we just all get along?