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Thread: Contemporary US Politicians

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Oliver Aaron View Post
    Your observation about Trump is right. He does manipulate crowds by influencing their emotional states. However, I would say that your socionics interpretation is incorrect. The Contact/Inert dichotomy has little to do with changing other people. Instead it is about how the user's own position is likely to change or not. It is quite clear that Trump sets the mood of his rallies and tries to get everyone else to go along with that mood. This would be an Inert (and Bold +Valued) usage of Ethics.

    Furthermore, the aspect to do with manipulation involves the expectation that people's emotional states are liable to change and that a firm setting of the mood will change their emotions to suit Trump's needs. That is a way of viewing Ethics that is Dynamic, in constant flux and open to being changed and altered by someone. That is quite different to the Static, relational Ethics we see Introverted Ethics. From this point and the one above, your observation supports Extroverted Ethics in either the Leading or Mobilising position for Donald Trump.


    Your comparison to Julius Caesar is at least half correct. You are right in that Caesar and Trump were both blind to the long-term effects of their actions, and that they were motivated by a relentless pursuit of power. This is what makes them both Extroverted Sensation Leading and Introverted Intuition Suggestive. However, from what I know about Caesar, his popularism, although emulated by classic SLEs like Napoleon and Mussolini, was more of a front for his political ability on the one-to-one. Caesar sought less to change or influence the mood of the people, and more to be relatable to others, not a rank above them, someone who could be trusted to rule. This is one reason why he refused to be made Emperor, so that he would not be seen as a King. The Republic would surely assassinate a King. I think Expat knows a lot more about this than I do though. His position is SEE for Caesar.
    Ahh finally his SLE typing is being reconsidered. I originally thought EIE, but I can see SEE (lol)

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    Quote Originally Posted by bolong View Post
    Ahh finally his SLE typing is being reconsidered. I originally thought EIE, but I can see SEE (lol)
    EIE would fit what I've described better than SEE, yes. However, his use of Extroverted Ethics is so devoid of subtlety and nuance, and his actions so overtly dominant, energetic and reckless, that SLE's weaker Introverted Intuition and Introverted Ethics seems clear.

    The EIEs in the Republican campaign, I think, are Ted Cruz and Marco Rubio.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bolong View Post
    You don't have to be condescending because you disagree with me. This is the absolute worst way to go about trying to change someone's opinion.
    The problem is that it has gotten to this point, to the point of emotions becoming the primary factor in people's opinions on these subjects. Of course, I have no expectation of changing anyone's opinion in the matters of politics. The r/K selection theory pretty much makes this out to be a matter of biology (look it up, real physiological differences between the two) and, well, good luck fighting against that. It's the K's vs. the r's and, well, I'm a K, and you're an r. I'm a predator and you're prey, of course you hate my guts with all your soul whereas, well, I just see you as part of nature. The supreme delusion is that the prey believe they are better off without the predator.

    The Mouse Utopia experiments by John Calhoun prove that to be a falsehood. A world with only r's is dead, it extincts itself. He tried to make it all work out and yet the only way it ever did is if he replicated the state of predation for the mice. They *need* the cats and the owls hunting them in order for them to not extinct themselves. Not to say that K selection is the holy grail. A world of pure K-selection is a world of stagnation. How did the west overtake the east? Simple, the east was pure K, they made damn sure all r's never got any action. Still is to a large extent which is a major source of its problems. The damned fools, so xenophobic and bound by traditions that have long since become unnecessary. They only really advanced by copying the West, which at the moment has a live and let live approach to the whole r vs. K thing. That's what made it great, and sadly, this is about to end. The r's have overreached and overstepped their bounds. I fear the consequences of that as that only happened once before and, well, mushroom clouds and firebombings were the result. I don't want to see that happen with my own eyes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Muddytextures View Post
    I definitely agree with SEE>SLE for Trump. His whole campaign strategy revolves around manipulating crowds with flexible, contact ethics guided by Se desire to expand his influence, and the more he does, the more he has to suppress logic. So far his situation is very reminiscent of Julius Caesar, the ultimate historical SEE. Caesar like Trump was able to manipulate crowds into liking him despite turning Rome into a dictatorship and destroying the republic. And, also like Trump, Caesar's blindness to the long-term effects of his actions on the country caused him to become enemy #1 to the other senators which eventually lead to his assassination. Trump has already been physically attacked by angry people already and isn't even president. Donald Trump= SEE (Se-sub), IMO.
    Enemy #1 of the establishment/rich people is more like it. Caesar was *very* popular with the plebeians, they loved him. The aristocracy/patricians? Not so much, It is they who killed him, the ultimate "fuck you" to the "untermensch" plebeians. Ultimately, it didn't end well for anyone. Here's a good article on the subject: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/history/1...the-world.html.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Oliver Aaron View Post
    Your observation about Trump is right. He does manipulate crowds by influencing their emotional states. However, I would say that your socionics interpretation is incorrect. The Contact/Inert dichotomy has little to do with changing other people. Instead it is about how the user's own position is likely to change or not. It is quite clear that Trump sets the mood of his rallies and tries to get everyone else to go along with that mood. This would be an Inert (and Bold +Valued) usage of Ethics.

    Furthermore, the aspect to do with manipulation involves the expectation that people's emotional states are liable to change and that a firm setting of the mood will change their emotions to suit Trump's needs. That is a way of viewing Ethics that is Dynamic, in constant flux and open to being changed and altered by someone. That is quite different to the Static, relational Ethics we see Introverted Ethics. From this point and the one above, your observation supports Extroverted Ethics in either the Leading or Mobilising position for Donald Trump.


    Your comparison to Julius Caesar is at least half correct. You are right in that Caesar and Trump were both blind to the long-term effects of their actions, and that they were motivated by a relentless pursuit of power. This is what makes them both Extroverted Sensation Leading and Introverted Intuition Suggestive. However, from what I know about Caesar, his popularism, although emulated by classic SLEs like Napoleon and Mussolini, was more of a front for his political ability on the one-to-one. Caesar sought less to change or influence the mood of the people, and more to be relatable to others, not a rank above them, someone who could be trusted to rule. This is one reason why he refused to be made Emperor, so that he would not be seen as a King. The Republic would surely assassinate a King. I think Expat knows a lot more about this than I do though. His position is SEE for Caesar.
    ...or his PR machine / consultants do set the stage for him and he is just acting. A thing that any Fi could do.

    And then you fall into the trap of Ti. Do you really see him just sitting and making structures and planning and discussing the meaning of words, actions etc(he is all about the result. A blatant Te trait if any)? I'd think he does this at the bare minimal, offlaoads to the consultants and double checks the suggestions. The easiest way to go would be to agree with Jung and say he is Se + Fe or Se + Te. But that'd break the socionic model A, so let's not do that, shall we?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Oliver Aaron View Post
    EIE would fit what I've described better than SEE, yes. However, his use of Extroverted Ethics is so devoid of subtlety and nuance, and his actions so overtly dominant, energetic and reckless, that SLE's weaker Introverted Intuition and Introverted Ethics seems clear.

    The EIEs in the Republican campaign, I think, are Ted Cruz and Marco Rubio.
    How about ESE? I am just picking at all the ESxx types. SLE is a possibility as well, but I just don't see him using logic. I, I, I don't know. Things he says and do just don't have any logic behind them. And to say he's a ESTP just because he prefers Fe > Fi is a stretch. The more important thing is whether he prefers Te > Ti(which I am almost certain he does).

    He could also be LSE, but with his presidential campaign...I think not.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nondescript View Post
    ...or his PR machine / consultants do set the stage for him and he is just acting. A thing that any Fi could do.

    And then you fall into the trap of Ti. Do you really see him just sitting and making structures and planning and discussing the meaning of words, actions etc(he is all about the result. A blatant Te trait if any)? I'd think he does this at the bare minimal, offlaoads to the consultants and double checks the suggestions. The easiest way to go would be to agree with Jung and say he is Se + Fe or Se + Te. But that'd break the socionic model A, so let's not do that, shall we?
    It is quite apparent that Trump is able to drive the mood of the environment himself. He is a natural performer and readily improvises and plays with the group mood. His issue is that he can easily cross lines that people are personally sensitive to.

    Actually, Trump has a very good understanding of policies and regulations. At the moment he is an inconsistent demagogue because he is appealing to as many people in the right as he can, but when dealing with a fixed system like building contracts and legal disputes, he is ruthless at using it to his advantage. He is also a very detailed, precise worker.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Oliver Aaron View Post
    It is quite apparent that Trump is able to drive the mood of the environment himself. He is a natural performer and readily improvises and plays with the group mood. His issue is that he can easily cross lines that people are personally sensitive to.

    Actually, Trump has a very good understanding of policies and regulations. At the moment he is an inconsistent demagogue because he is appealing to as many people in the right as he can, but when dealing with a fixed system like building contracts and legal disputes, he is ruthless at using it to his advantage. He is also a very detailed, precise worker.
    Ok. I just know he is an ESxx. That much is obvious.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nondescript View Post
    How about ESE? I am just picking at all the ESxx types. SLE is a possibility as well, but I just don't see him using logic. I, I, I don't know. Things he says and do just don't have any logic behind them. And to say he's a ESTP just because he prefers Fe > Fi is a stretch. The more important thing is whether he prefers Te > Ti(which I am almost certain he does).

    He could also be LSE, but with his presidential campaign...I think not.
    The issue with ESE and LSE is that he simply has to be Se-valuing. His entire life philosophy is about brash confrontation, taking what he wants because he has will to do so, and making others back down. He's not simply energetic and proactive as a sort of background function, he lives and breathes Se and its importance. He has even been compared to Biff from Back to the Future, who is basically just raw Se.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Oliver Aaron View Post
    The issue with ESE and LSE is that he simply has to be Se-valuing. His entire life philosophy is about brash confrontation, taking what he wants because he has will to do so, and making others back down. He's not simply energetic and proactive as a sort of background function, he lives and breathes Se and its importance. He has even been compared to Biff from Back to the Future, who is basically just raw Se.
    Yes, I know. Thus my hint at just reverting to basic truth of Jung and just saying he is either Se + Te or Se + Fe.

    I'd even say he is ESxP. We simply will not know until someone tries to actually talk to him(me being crazy as I am would actually try, but I'm far off).

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    Quote Originally Posted by nondescript View Post
    Yes, I know. Thus my hint at just reverting to basic truth of Jung and just saying he is either Se + Te or Se + Fe.

    I'd even say he is ESxP. We simply will not know until someone tries to actually talk to him(me being crazy as I am would actually try, but I'm far off).
    Oh I think it much easier than that.... He is Se Leading, with Fe Mobilising and Te Demonstrative. It actually fits together very well.
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    Quote Originally Posted by nondescript View Post
    ...or his PR machine / consultants do set the stage for him and he is just acting. A thing that any Fi could do.<br>
    <br>
    And then you fall into the trap of Ti. Do you really see him just sitting and making structures and planning and discussing the meaning of words, actions etc(he is all about the result. A blatant Te trait if any)? I'd think he does this at the bare minimal, offlaoads to the consultants and double checks the suggestions. The easiest way to go would be to agree with Jung and say he is Se + Fe or Se + Te. But that'd break the socionic model A, so let's not do that, shall we?
    The more I think about it the more I see him as SEE. His whole life story is pretty much doing things the way. He came, he saw, he conquered. However, he seemed to really be in tune with the emotional atmosphere regarding those who held what he sought to attain, giving off an vibe in that area and why he always focused on "making a deal" as it were. I mean fuck, the dude wants to try and reconcile an outright apartheid Jewish regime in Israel with the "black" Palestinians. Both sides hate each others guts yet he thinks he can broker a deal that will end the violence? That's some Ego shit. I respect the attempt yet I fear it just won't happen, too much bad blood. However, to even wish to attempt it is a good thing that I cannot help but support it.

    Either way, it exposes the truth of the situation. Either Israel wants peace, or it doesn't. It either wants to kill every last "shitskin" Palestinian or it really does seek to coexist with them and thus cannot fault Trump's argument for being neutral. It either wants to genocide them, or it does not. This is what I like about Trump's presence. For the establishment, he's a "damned if ya do, damned if ya don't" figure. You either go along and stay underground despite the fact you hate doing so, or you oppose him openly and thus expose your true agenda. The "Deep State" can't really hide in the end. They either bow down to him or their real agenda gets exposed for all to see. And lemme tell ya, that deep state man, so, SO many vile sins. They've earned their place at the firing line. I relish in the schadenfreude, their sweat and fear is my eternal joy. I can't wait to see the looks on their faces when their carefully constructed narratives fall apart. Truly, it will be a great day for all of humanity
    Last edited by End; 03-17-2016 at 05:29 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Oliver Aaron View Post
    Oh I think it much easier than that.... He is Se Leading, with Fe Mobilising and Te Demonstrative. It actually fits together very well.
    Why couldn't he be Fe Demo and Te Mobi?

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    Quote Originally Posted by nondescript View Post
    Why couldn't he be Fe Demo and Te Mobi?
    Because the provision of factual information and the updating of his knowledge base to solve new problems is more of a background feature. He does this comfortably and naturally, but doesn't place much emphasis on it or give the impression he is trying to accomplish things in this area, little sign of self-improvement or conveying information as accurately as possible, etc. This suits the Strong, Contact and Subdued approach of the Demonstrative function.

    In contrast, his desire to make an impression on other people and excite them is something he has overtly attempted time and time again, with varying levels of success and failure. This suits the Weak, Inert and Valued approach of the Mobilising function.
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    Using every irl IEI I have ever known, and myself, as a point of reference, I find it hard to believe that the US has ever elected an IEI president, for several reasons. But, I am not allowed to talk about...it's the first rule.


    “My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.”​ —C.G. Jung
     
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    Using every irl IEI I have ever known, and myself, as a point of reference, I find it hard to believe that the US has ever elected an IEI president, for several reasons. But, I am not allowed to talk about...it's the first rule.

    They have elected at most three: Martin Van Buren, Jimmy Carter and Barack Obama. Of the three, Barack Obama is benchmarked.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Oliver Aaron View Post
    They have elected at most three: Martin Van Buren, Jimmy Carter and Barack Obama. Of the three, Barack Obama is benchmarked.
    I've always thought that Jimmy Carter is EII. Do you have an analysis describing Obama as IEI? I'm not sure what benchmarked means.

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    Quote Originally Posted by April View Post
    I've always thought that Jimmy Carter is EII. Do you have an analysis describing Obama as IEI? I'm not sure what benchmarked means.
    Yeah I thought Carter was EII too. He just vibes delta to me. Reminds me a bit of my EII uncle (not visually). They both have this very passive, sweet, caring energy. Obama as IEI is a bit weird and makes me feel like I didn't try hard enough in this life to circumvent my wiring and do something amazing. Thanks for depressing me Jack.


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    Quote Originally Posted by April View Post
    I've always thought that Jimmy Carter is EII. Do you have an analysis describing Obama as IEI? I'm not sure what benchmarked means.
    EII was my initial thought for Jimmy Carter too, because he seemed like a highly conscience-driven, folksy, down-to-earth individual. Discussing it with Expat, we ended up looking also at SEI and then IEI. What seemed most curious was his sense of ideological drive and purpose that got him from Georgia to the White House despite all the odds, as well as the ability to deceive the locals that he was a lot more conservative, when he actually was quite progressive. Upon earning the presidency, the most notable complaints people had of him were his stubbornness and a tendency to turn icy towards people who he saw as his opponents. I see these characteristics as more fitting Valued+Inert Ni and Ti, rather than Fi and Si. However, out of the three I have mentioned, I am the least sure about him being IEI, probably 2/5 certainty if that. I've written him as 'IEI?' on a list of the US Presidents.

    An analysis of Obama will likely be written in time. It's not written yet though. I think Expat will want to do the write-up for him though as American politics (and Roman history) seem to be his main interests in history, while I am a relative novice in those fields. I'm working on Noam Chomsky (LII) next, now that I've finished Gandhi (IEI).

    By 'benchmarked', I mean that the figure is on the typology database for WSS and that at least four members of the diagnostic team have typed the figure without disagreement in their conclusion. In order to educate people in Socionics, it is important to have a canon of examples and benchmarked figures are people we are comfortable using as examples (until someone makes a very good argument that smashes the given rationale and we are forced to publicly announce that we have changed altered the benchmark. Hopefully this will be a very rare event.)
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    Ok... so I'm reading this thread and... did I understood this right... Barack Obama and Donald Trump... are duals...?! (I think I'm about to piss myself laughing)
    Last edited by Moonbeaux Rainfox; 03-18-2016 at 08:41 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Oliver Aaron View Post
    EII was my initial thought for Jimmy Carter too, because he seemed like a highly conscience-driven, folksy, down-to-earth individual. Discussing it with Expat, we ended up looking also at SEI and then IEI. What seemed most curious was his sense of ideological drive and purpose that got him from Georgia to the White House despite all the odds, as well as the ability to deceive the locals that he was a lot more conservative, when he actually was quite progressive. Upon earning the presidency, the most notable complaints people had of him were his stubbornness and a tendency to turn icy towards people who he saw as his opponents. I see these characteristics as more fitting Valued+Inert Ni and Ti, rather than Fi and Si. However, out of the three I have mentioned, I am the least sure about him being IEI, probably 2/5 certainty if that. I've written him as 'IEI?' on a list of the US Presidents.
    I'm not exactly an expert at Carter's campaign or administration. However, it's my understanding that Carter's strong, born-again Christian values appealed to the South. He was considered a moderate Democrat at the time, but he has espoused much more progressive beliefs since then, especially in recent years. I am not aware of any mass deceptions committed against his constituencies, especially given that people have described Carter as honest to a fault (e.g., many parts of his "Crisis of Confidence" speech). Additionally, types of the IJ temperament are described as having a tendency toward stubbornness, so I'm not sure how that trait would point to IEI more than EII. Another quality that leads me to believe EII over IEI was Carter's deep conscientiousness and preference to micromanage over appropriately delegate tasks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Oliver Aaron View Post
    By 'benchmarked', I mean that the figure is on the typology database for WSS and that at least four members of the diagnostic team have typed the figure without disagreement in their conclusion. In order to educate people in Socionics, it is important to have a canon of examples and benchmarked figures are people we are comfortable using as examples (until someone makes a very good argument that smashes the given rationale and we are forced to publicly announce that we have changed altered the benchmark. Hopefully this will be a very rare event.)
    I'm guessing that you've probably had this conversation before now, but I will ask about it anyway. Are your typings on the diagnostic team anonymous? Do you track initial inter-rater agreement? For example, you could set up a system (computer program or an independent party managing it) where team members submit their typings of individuals, but other team members' typings would be hidden until 4 or more typings have been submitted. Maybe at this second stage, the typings would remain anonymous for a while, so people wouldn't be biased or pressured to agree with specific individuals if they wish to change their typing for the benchmark. I'm sure there are many ways you could go about it, and I've just thought about it for a few minutes, so I encourage you guys to be rigorous in your methodology. I'd love to see the results.

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    A few weeks/months ago I thought this website/page as being potentially useful for getting a sense of Carter's personality (and of other political people from the US): it even considers his stances after his time in office: http://www.ontheissues.org/Jimmy_Carter.htm

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    Quote Originally Posted by April View Post
    I'm not exactly an expert at Carter's campaign or administration. However, it's my understanding that Carter's strong, born-again Christian values appealed to the South. He was considered a moderate Democrat at the time, but he has espoused much more progressive beliefs since then, especially in recent years. I am not aware of any mass deceptions committed against his constituencies, especially given that people have described Carter as honest to a fault (e.g., many parts of his "Crisis of Confidence" speech). Additionally, types of the IJ temperament are described as having a tendency toward stubbornness, so I'm not sure how that trait would point to IEI more than EII. Another quality that leads me to believe EII over IEI was Carter's deep conscientiousness and preference to micromanage over appropriately delegate tasks.
    This video would agree with your observations. I don't know, EII was my initial impression as well and I think I could easily be mistaken with IEI. Certainly if this video is accurate in his reporting. What I remember of Expat's was to do with his stubbornness and micro-managing nature making more sense for L6.

    I would not say, though, that IJs are characterised as stubborn, i.e. resistant to other people's views and opinions. I think that all Inert uses of functions can be stubborn. Instead, I think that IJ types are most concerned with preserving integrity, whether in the form of the consistency of their chosen framework or the sincerity of attitudes and sentiments. I would say that the EII, with their I2 and F4, can actually be quite the opposite of stubborn, leaning towards being highly eclectic with their ideas and opinions and trying to understand other people's perspectives.


    Quote Originally Posted by April View Post
    I'm guessing that you've probably had this conversation before now, but I will ask about it anyway. Are your typings on the diagnostic team anonymous? Do you track initial inter-rater agreement? For example, you could set up a system (computer program or an independent party managing it) where team members submit their typings of individuals, but other team members' typings would be hidden until 4 or more typings have been submitted. Maybe at this second stage, the typings would remain anonymous for a while, so people wouldn't be biased or pressured to agree with specific individuals if they wish to change their typing for the benchmark. I'm sure there are many ways you could go about it, and I've just thought about it for a few minutes, so I encourage you guys to be rigorous in your methodology. I'd love to see the results.
    The typings on thehotelambush's diagnostics site are currently not anonymous, and we are unable to track inter-rater agreement without the noise from being biased by each other's opinions. It is a flaw that I hope to solve when the site gets better funding and I have some time to work on the technique. In the meantime, I have to make do with the general disagreeableness of some of the team's members, who tend to not give a hoot in regards to what other people on the team think, and are able to veto any typing they disagree with

    Hopefully the rigour will be improved this way in the future. It has been discussed on the group, but a solution has not been found and implemented yet.
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    President of WSS Jack Oliver Aaron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by April View Post
    I'm not exactly an expert at Carter's campaign or administration. However, it's my understanding that Carter's strong, born-again Christian values appealed to the South. He was considered a moderate Democrat at the time, but he has espoused much more progressive beliefs since then, especially in recent years. I am not aware of any mass deceptions committed against his constituencies, especially given that people have described Carter as honest to a fault (e.g., many parts of his "Crisis of Confidence" speech). Additionally, types of the IJ temperament are described as having a tendency toward stubbornness, so I'm not sure how that trait would point to IEI more than EII. Another quality that leads me to believe EII over IEI was Carter's deep conscientiousness and preference to micromanage over appropriately delegate tasks.
    Ok, you've changed my mind on Carter. Talking more to Expat changed my mind again though. I am now of the mind that he is SEI. Indecisive weekend
    Last edited by Jack Oliver Aaron; 03-21-2016 at 10:44 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    Using every irl IEI I have ever known, and myself, as a point of reference, I find it hard to believe that the US has ever elected an IEI president, for several reasons. But, I am not allowed to talk about...it's the first rule.

    Oh come now, I know there had to be more than a few IEI's in the revolutionary army and I bet that at least one of the founders was your identical. IEI is the "political" survivor in the end after all. They have a rather unique talent in being seemingly politically invincible when the shit hits the fan. They just seem to be able to get *everyone* to like them enough to spare their lives if nothing else. Hell, even I like them, and that's from a man who fistbumps the likes of Nietzsche and Ayn Rand. It's even a point of potential historical coincidence. They say that Nietzsche was informed of one Soren Kierkegaard (an IEI whom I greatly admire) yet never got around to reading his works. I would have been very fascinated as to get Mr. Zarathustra's opinion on it but, well, it didn't happen in this timeline. A shame really in my mind...

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    I'm sorry to busrst the bubble, but I don't think we could ever know his real type(because he is very protective of it and the SLE is just a barbed shell anyhow). Here:

    http://edition.cnn.com/videos/politi...p-with-god.cnn

    At this point, beneath the shell even the ESE wouldn't surprise me. Or some introvert.

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    Personally I'm pretty confident Mr. Obama is either ENTP or ENFP. I find his policy decisions and especially his reasoning very very similar to my own. I don't feel this relatedness from other contemporary politicians. Obviously he has a very strong Ne.

    WSS can benchmark him as whoever, I don't mind. Just don't try to make it appear as if there is some sort of general consensus.

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    Quote Originally Posted by End View Post
    The problem is that it has gotten to this point, to the point of emotions becoming the primary factor in people's opinions on these subjects. Of course, I have no expectation of changing anyone's opinion in the matters of politics. The r/K selection theory pretty much makes this out to be a matter of biology (look it up, real physiological differences between the two) and, well, good luck fighting against that. It's the K's vs. the r's and, well, I'm a K, and you're an r. I'm a predator and you're prey, of course you hate my guts with all your soul whereas, well, I just see you as part of nature. The supreme delusion is that the prey believe they are better off without the predator.

    The Mouse Utopia experiments by John Calhoun prove that to be a falsehood. A world with only r's is dead, it extincts itself. He tried to make it all work out and yet the only way it ever did is if he replicated the state of predation for the mice. They *need* the cats and the owls hunting them in order for them to not extinct themselves. Not to say that K selection is the holy grail. A world of pure K-selection is a world of stagnation. How did the west overtake the east? Simple, the east was pure K, they made damn sure all r's never got any action. Still is to a large extent which is a major source of its problems. The damned fools, so xenophobic and bound by traditions that have long since become unnecessary. They only really advanced by copying the West, which at the moment has a live and let live approach to the whole r vs. K thing. That's what made it great, and sadly, this is about to end. The r's have overreached and overstepped their bounds. I fear the consequences of that as that only happened once before and, well, mushroom clouds and firebombings were the result. I don't want to see that happen with my own eyes.
    if you're trying to piss me off, it's not really working. it's hilarious that you consider yourself a predator. you're a pseudo predator waiting to be smacked down and *@!#ed up the ass, only I have no interest in doing that for you, sorry.

    I know the mouse experiments that you are trying to refer to offhand to show your intellectual superiority. that experiment was done in the 70s, and if you just now realized that it doesn't work, you're pretty far behind. the only way to survive in an increasingly populated world is through a return to collectivism as a global value. people like you who are late to the game and think we are still riding a wave of selfish individualism, will be the first to get wiped out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Oliver Aaron View Post
    EIE would fit what I've described better than SEE, yes. However, his use of Extroverted Ethics is so devoid of subtlety and nuance, and his actions so overtly dominant, energetic and reckless, that SLE's weaker Introverted Intuition and Introverted Ethics seems clear.

    The EIEs in the Republican campaign, I think, are Ted Cruz and Marco Rubio.
    Not LIE for Cruz? Rubio actually strikes me as SEE. The way he was willing to get in the mud and throw insults at Trump when he realized that was what the media wanted. And he was really good at it too, on the mark and entertaining ("you know what they say about men with small hands..")

    Also, some EIE-Fes are about as subtle as a bowling ball. But I don't want to encourage Trump's similarity with H***** so I'm letting it go.
    Last edited by bolong; 03-24-2016 at 07:07 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bolong View Post
    if you're trying to piss me off, it's not really working. it's hilarious that you consider yourself a predator. you're a pseudo predator waiting to be smacked down and *@!#ed up the ass, only I have no interest in doing that for you, sorry.

    I know the mouse experiments that you are trying to refer to offhand to show your intellectual superiority. that experiment was done in the 70s, and if you just now realized that it doesn't work, you're pretty far behind. the only way to survive in an increasingly populated world is through a return to collectivism as a global value. people like you who are late to the game and think we are still riding a wave of selfish individualism, will be the first to get wiped out.
    That's also an r/K thing. The r's are collectivists. The K's are individualistic. I have not heard of individualistic worldviews that killed millions, I can give you a long list of collectivist ideologies that have extensively large body counts and it all flows from whomever wants and gets control of that ultimate expression of collectivist ideology, the state. Statism, in all its various forms, is the worst mistake humanity ever made. Nobody's ever been killed by a true hardcore libertarian in the name of libertarian ideology. The very thought of doing that is abhorrent to people like myself. The initiation of force is the greatest sin, you never, ever start the violence. You are only allowed to respond to it. Me killing someone over a mere ideological disagreement is simply something that will never happen, ever.

    Collectivists, however, collectivists have no problem pulling the trigger on someone who doesn't "go along to get along". The great tragedies of the 20th century, indeed all of history one could argue, were all caused by people acting on collectivist ideologies. Nationalism, Socialism, Tribalism, even the bad apples in the religion department, they're the ones doing all the killing even up to this very day, not people like myself. They're also quite nasty towards those they don't like, then censor speech they don't like. You'd never see me silence a commie, but a commie would gladly throw people like me into a gulag once they gain political power. You'll never see me seriously and unjokingly call for the death of a public figure because I don't like them or disagree with their ideas, yet I see that behavior all the time from the collectivists.

    It's a sad sight to see really, the greatest argument against collectivist ideologies is twitter and tumblr. One look at that toxic, vile mess has me very glad I'm on the side I'm on. I, at least, can take a joke made at my expense and laugh. Hell, I make fun of myself all the time in my head, it's great fun. Those people not only can't, they get offended and whip out insults and death threats! Who the better person is becomes an obvious contrast. One guy's laughing, and the other is spewing out barrages of hate that, if you were to, say, replace certain words with "Jew" you'd think you're speaking to a hardcore neo-nazi skinhead. The other half of the time, you really are talking to a neo-nazi skinhead and boy is he open and proud about his hate for everything Jewish. If you were on a deserted island, who would you rather find yourself marooned with? A nice individualist who is more than happy to help out his fellow man in a survival situation, or a collectivist whose ideology you don't subscribe to and they know/find out about that fact?
    Last edited by End; 03-25-2016 at 03:00 AM.

  31. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by End View Post
    Oh come now, I know there had to be more than a few IEI's in the revolutionary army and I bet that at least one of the founders was your identical. IEI is the "political" survivor in the end after all. They have a rather unique talent in being seemingly politically invincible when the shit hits the fan. They just seem to be able to get *everyone* to like them enough to spare their lives if nothing else. Hell, even I like them, and that's from a man who fistbumps the likes of Nietzsche and Ayn Rand. It's even a point of potential historical coincidence. They say that Nietzsche was informed of one Soren Kierkegaard (an IEI whom I greatly admire) yet never got around to reading his works. I would have been very fascinated as to get Mr. Zarathustra's opinion on it but, well, it didn't happen in this timeline. A shame really in my mind...
    I don't doubt that an IEI could be a great leader if they actually wanted to lead but with the stereotypical low energy (overall) they would have trouble handling the very strict scheduling and social interaction required of a president. That kind of pace for 4-8 years seems like it would take a toll sooner than later. I would think Ni/Fe needs more downtime than that. They are better suited to lead where Ni with little need for Te is valued. That doesn't appear to be the US so that is why I doubt that one has been elected here yet.

    "This job looks a lot easier when you're not sitting where I am." -- Pres. Bill Clinton

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    Quote Originally Posted by bolong View Post
    Not LIE for Cruz? Rubio actually strikes me as SEE. The way he was willing to get in the mud and throw insults at Trump when he realized that was what the media wanted. And he was really good at it too, on the mark and entertaining ("you know what they say about men with small hands..")

    Also, some EIE-Fes are about as subtle as a bowling ball. But I don't want to encourage Trump's similarity with H***** so I'm letting it go.
    Comparing Trump to the Aryan Supremacists' machinations is an insult to all who died putting his followers into a well deserved grave. He was an IEI gone wrong, end of discussion. Trump is an SEE running off of pure values. I may sympathize but that don't mean I agree. He needed an dom and, well, I don't think he's got one in his closest circle. A smart nazi wouldn't have started wars. They would just stay on point through the years. If you're right then you'll eventually win no matter what. Patience. Wait the fuckers out, that's how you win long term. If you really are right then what have you to fear? Just keep up the fight, history is a very long story, so long as you're right you'll win. Slavery died, Feudalism died, the corrupt current system is already dying, what comes next will be an improvement provided we don't incinerate each other in nuclear fire. This time, freedom has a chance. I hope you join me in welcoming in a better world...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Oliver Aaron View Post
    Your observation about Trump is right. He does manipulate crowds by influencing their emotional states. However, I would say that your socionics interpretation is incorrect. The Contact/Inert dichotomy has little to do with changing other people. Instead it is about how the user's own position is likely to change or not. It is quite clear that Trump sets the mood of his rallies and tries to get everyone else to go along with that mood. This would be an Inert (and Bold +Valued) usage of Ethics.

    Furthermore, the aspect to do with manipulation involves the expectation that people's emotional states are liable to change and that a firm setting of the mood will change their emotions to suit Trump's needs. That is a way of viewing Ethics that is Dynamic, in constant flux and open to being changed and altered by someone. That is quite different to the Static, relational Ethics we see Introverted Ethics. From this point and the one above, your observation supports Extroverted Ethics in either the Leading or Mobilising position for Donald Trump.


    Your comparison to Julius Caesar is at least half correct. You are right in that Caesar and Trump were both blind to the long-term effects of their actions, and that they were motivated by a relentless pursuit of power. This is what makes them both Extroverted Sensation Leading and Introverted Intuition Suggestive. However, from what I know about Caesar, his popularism, although emulated by classic SLEs like Napoleon and Mussolini, was more of a front for his political ability on the one-to-one. Caesar sought less to change or influence the mood of the people, and more to be relatable to others, not a rank above them, someone who could be trusted to rule. This is one reason why he refused to be made Emperor, so that he would not be seen as a King. The Republic would surely assassinate a King. I think Expat knows a lot more about this than I do though. His position is SEE for Caesar.
    I'm still going to have to disagree and stick with SEE over SLE for Trump as I simply don't see any Ti creative from him. His policies completely revolve around things that may initially sound good to the common person but are absurd when analyzed further. In regards to Fe I see it fitting the demonstrative much better the the mobilizing. The mobilizing is more of a need then something you can use by itself to achieve ends like Trump is doing with Fe. You argue his Fe is "devoid of nuance" but I see that more as him using it at the bare minimum required to accomplish his Se goals rather then him having a poor understanding and application of Fe, which fits the subdued but very strong demonstrative function perfectly.

    His policies have plenty of Gamma values in them if you look deeper. First of all his campaign slogan, "Make America Great Again", is a Te valuing statement if I ever heard one. Second, his extreme emphasis on keeping out immigrants quite clearly represent Gamma's Fi- values of getting away from bad people, or at least people they see as bad. I also see his Se as more of Gamma's Se+ then Beta's Se-. Trump wants to fortify America and make it resistant to the outside. SLE would take a more offensive approach and seek to have more control over foreign nations rather then turtling up like Trump wants to do.
    Last edited by Muddy; 03-26-2016 at 07:11 AM.

  34. #114
    President of WSS Jack Oliver Aaron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Muddytextures View Post
    I'm still going to have to disagree and stick with SEE over SLE for Trump as I simply don't see any Ti creative from him. His policies completely revolve around things that may initially sound good to the common person but are absurd when analyzed further. In regards to Fe I see it fitting the demonstrative much better the the mobilizing. The mobilizing is more of a need then something you can use by itself to achieve ends like Trump is doing with Fe. You argue his Fe is "devoid of nuance" but I see that more as him using it at the bare minimum required to accomplish his Se goals rather then him having a poor understanding and application of Fe, which fits the subdued but very strong demonstrative function perfectly.

    His policies have plenty of Gamma values in them if you look deeper. First of all his campaign slogan, "Make America Great Again", is a Te valuing statement if I ever heard one. Second, his extreme emphasis on keeping out immigrants quite clearly represent Gamma's Fi- values of getting away from bad people, or at least people they see as bad. I also see his Se as more of Gamma's Se+ then Beta's Se-. Trump wants to fortify America and make it resistant to the outside. SLE would take a more offensive approach and seek to have more control over foreign nations rather then turtling up like Trump wants to do.

    In his campaign, Trump has made his Se and Fe most noticeable, and has been saying pretty much anything that he thinks will get more attention. This is not a good context to find Ti. However, Trump is someone who in his work, makes good use of the legal systems to expand his power, such as eminent domain, or the limited liability of his companies, or indeed suing people who he feels have attacked him. Trump is very quick to go to legal policy in order to support his power, far more than personal contacts or relations.

    The Mobilising function is Bold & Inert, just like the Leading function. As such, it is similarly pushed overtly onto the environment. It is both a need and something we try to use ourselves to achieve goals, except that it is used in an unstable manner, capable of collapsing with the non-compliance of the Vulnerable function.

    On the contrary, Trump has had a neurotic fixation on Fe. He is constantly wondering about how he is being portrayed by other people, checking news articles and watching programs about himself. He tries to sue anyone who attacks his reputation, or else, tries to damage their reputation back. Furthermore, a major part of Trump's wealth is in his brand, which he puts everywhere, to the point of ridiculousness, with Trump Tower, Trump University, Trump Steaks, etc. This sort of un-nuanced overload of image-creation very much fits Fe Mobilising. At the same time, Trump is highly given to exaggeration, making things sound bigger and larger than they seem. This is typical of Fe-valuing communicators, who wish to convey how people should feel about what they're saying, rather than the matter-of-fact, sentimentally sincere (although sometimes harsh in sentiment) delivery one sees in Te-valuers. Even in SEEs, there will be this matter-of-fact tendency, as can be seen in Chris Christie, Bill O' Reilly, Ann Coulter, etc.

    "Make America Great Again" has very little to do with Gamma values and especially not Te. It is entirely contentless and non-specified as a slogan. It is not factual, but rather, it conveys a vague feeling of becoming better. It is very much a Beta slogan. The idea of being 'Great' is itself Fe and Se. The romanticising of one's impact on the world. The Gamma does not seek to be 'great', they seek personal advancement and improvement, which they assess to be successful on their own merits and standards, independently of people's awe or reverence.

    As for the emphasis on keeping people out of the country, this is populist message, designed to appeal to a large number of people. I also am not going to accept your comments about + and - signs. They aren't canon. Furthermore, the critique of Trump's wall-building is based on his characterisation of a group of people as 'bad', rather than a focus on individuals. This can easily be a Ti/Fe judgement of a group, rather than the Fi/Te judgement of individual character.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Oliver Aaron View Post
    In his campaign, Trump has made his Se and Fe most noticeable, and has been saying pretty much anything that he thinks will get more attention. This is not a good context to find Ti. However, Trump is someone who in his work, makes good use of the legal systems to expand his power, such as eminent domain, or the limited liability of his companies, or indeed suing people who he feels have attacked him. Trump is very quick to go to legal policy in order to support his power, far more than personal contacts or relations.

    The Mobilising function is Bold & Inert, just like the Leading function. As such, it is similarly pushed overtly onto the environment. It is both a need and something we try to use ourselves to achieve goals, except that it is used in an unstable manner, capable of collapsing with the non-compliance of the Vulnerable function.

    On the contrary, Trump has had a neurotic fixation on Fe. He is constantly wondering about how he is being portrayed by other people, checking news articles and watching programs about himself. He tries to sue anyone who attacks his reputation, or else, tries to damage their reputation back. Furthermore, a major part of Trump's wealth is in his brand, which he puts everywhere, to the point of ridiculousness, with Trump Tower, Trump University, Trump Steaks, etc. This sort of un-nuanced overload of image-creation very much fits Fe Mobilising. At the same time, Trump is highly given to exaggeration, making things sound bigger and larger than they seem. This is typical of Fe-valuing communicators, who wish to convey how people should feel about what they're saying, rather than the matter-of-fact, sentimentally sincere (although sometimes harsh in sentiment) delivery one sees in Te-valuers. Even in SEEs, there will be this matter-of-fact tendency, as can be seen in Chris Christie, Bill O' Reilly, Ann Coulter, etc.

    "Make America Great Again" has very little to do with Gamma values and especially not Te. It is entirely contentless and non-specified as a slogan. It is not factual, but rather, it conveys a vague feeling of becoming better. It is very much a Beta slogan. The idea of being 'Great' is itself Fe and Se. The romanticising of one's impact on the world. The Gamma does not seek to be 'great', they seek personal advancement and improvement, which they assess to be successful on their own merits and standards, independently of people's awe or reverence.

    As for the emphasis on keeping people out of the country, this is populist message, designed to appeal to a large number of people. I also am not going to accept your comments about + and - signs. They aren't canon. Furthermore, the critique of Trump's wall-building is based on his characterisation of a group of people as 'bad', rather than a focus on individuals. This can easily be a Ti/Fe judgement of a group, rather than the Fi/Te judgement of individual character.
    You do bring up solid arguments. However you somehow come off as a bit authoritarian in the way you post so I can see why others might be inclined to criticize and nitpick some of your conclusions. Perhaps adding just tad bit of Fe in your post might go long way.

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    President of WSS Jack Oliver Aaron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Muddytextures View Post
    You do bring up solid arguments. However you somehow come off as a bit authoritarian in the way you post so I can see why others might be inclined to criticize and nitpick some of your conclusions. Perhaps adding just tad bit of Fe in your post might go long way.
    Hehe, I think I tend to go into formal, academic mode when writing arguments. I'm a lot more friendly in person. It's probably a good idea to bring some PR Fe-Egos along

    Anyway, Expat has said that he is going to work on the Analysis for Donald Trump, so when that's done I can post it on here.
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    As they look ahead to the general election, some commentators envision a campaign in which Donald Trump attacks viciously and Hillary Clinton makes a virtue of her refusal to stoop to his level. “I think Trump’s method will be to turn on the insult comedy against Hillary Clinton,” declared GOP consultant Mike Murphy earlier this week. “Her big judo move is playing the victim.” Vox’s Ezra Klein speculated earlier this year that “Trump sets up Clinton for a much softer and unifying message than she’d be able to get away with against a candidate like [Marco] Rubio.”
    I doubt it will play out that way. Rope-a-dope isn’t Clinton’s style. When facing political threats, her pattern has been to strike first—and with great force.
    In Carl Bernstein’s biography, A Woman in Charge, he notes that when Clinton was 14, a bigger girl bullied her. Declaring, “There’s no room in this house for cowards,” Dorothy Howell Rodham told her daughter to punch the girl, which Hillary did.
    The conventional wisdom is that Trump’s penchant for gutter politics makes him difficult for Clinton to handle. I suspect that’s wrong. Clinton’s instinct is to use hardball tactics in pursuit of what she sees as the greater good. Barack Obama and Sanders, by running as high-minded idealists, made that harder. Every time she attacked them, she risked playing into their depiction of her as ruthless and unprincipled. Trump, by contrast, because he’s so odious, liberates her to wage total war. Which is exactly what she likes to do.
    http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/...ys-war/480684/


    Interesting article that makes Hillary seem like a Se user. But LSEs are fighters too, right? @Maritsa ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by bolong View Post
    http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/...ys-war/480684/


    Interesting article that makes Hillary seem like a Se user. But LSEs are fighters too, right? @Maritsa ?
    Hillary seems ESE to me sometimes.
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    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

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    Quote Originally Posted by Starfall View Post
    I'm pretty sure all of you non Americans hope this for the pure sake of entertainment. Smh.

    Seriously... You must leave some room for actual comedy. OTOH great wall China is pretty old so why not leave something for the next generations.
    MOTTO: NEVER TRUST IN REALITY
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    idiosyncratic type
    Life is a joke but do you have a life?

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