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Thread: Hell discussion (split from Delta Lounge)

  1. #241
    Queen of the Damned Aylen's Avatar
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    This site just annoyed the HELL out of me.

    http://www.godandscience.org/doctrine/hell.html

    Make sure you also check out the reason god sends billions to hell..very informative! This is not my day. Looks like I am searching for things to get angry at. Do I want to think for one moment all my friends are in hell... I don't and I won't.


    idolatry adultery prostitution
    theft greed drunkenness
    swindling impurity witchcraft
    discord jealousy fits of rage
    dissensions factions and envy orgies
    lying cowardice unbelief
    sorcery sexual immorality homosexual offenses
    slander hatred selfish ambition
    abomination murder







    Pretty harsh!

    "You serpents, you brood of vipers, how shall you escape the sentence of hell?" (Matthew 23:33)
    "And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire" (Revelation 20:15)

    “My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.”​ —C.G. Jung
     
    YWIMW

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    LϺαο Not A Communist Shill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charles Darwin
    During these two years [OCTOBER 1936 to January 1839] I was led to think much about religion. Whilst on board the Beagle I was quite orthodox, and I remember being heartily laughed at by several of the officers (although themselves orthodox) for quoting the Bible as an unanswerable authority on some point of morality. I suppose it was the novelty of the argument that amused them. But I had gradually come by this time, i.e., 1836 to 1839, to see that the Old Testament from its manifestly false history of the world, with the Tower of Babel, the rainbow at sign, &c., &c., and from its attributing to God the feelings of a revengeful tyrant, was no more to be trusted than the sacred books of the Hindoos, or the beliefs of any barbarian. The question then continually rose, before my mind and would not be banished, is it credible that if God were now to make a revelation to the Hindoos, he would permit it to be connected with the belief in Vishnu, Siva, &c., as Christianity is connected with the Old Testament? This appeared to me utterly incredible.

    By further reflecting that the clearest evidence would be requisite to make any sane man believe in the miracles by which Christianity is supported, (and that the more we know of the fixed laws of nature the more incredible do miracles become), that the men at that time were ignorant and credulous to a degree almost uncomprehensible by us, that the Gospels cannot be proved to have been written simultaneously with the events, that they differ in many important details, far too important, as it seemed to me, to be admitted as the usual inaccuracies of eyewitnesses; by such reflections as these, which I give not as having the least novelty or value, but as they influenced me, I gradually came to disbelieve in Christianity as a divine revelation. The fact that many false religions have spread over large portions of the earth like wild-fire had some weight with me. Beautiful as is the morality of the New Testament, it can be hardly denied that its perfection depends in part on the interpretation which we now put on metaphors and allegories.

    But I was very unwilling to give up my belief; I feel sure of this, for I can well remember often and often inventing day-dreams of old letters between distinguished Romans, and manuscripts being discovered at Pompeii or elsewhere, which confirmed in the most striking manner all that was written in the Gospels. But I found it more and more difficult, with free scope given to my imagination, to invent evidence which would suffice to convince me. Thus disbelief crept over me at a very slow rate, but was at last complete. The rate was so slow that I felt no distress, and have never since doubted even for a single second that my conclusion was correct. I can indeed hardly see how anyone ought to wish Christianity to be true; for if so the plain language of the text seems to show that the men who do not believe, and this would include my Father, Brother and almost all of my friends, will be everlastingly punished.

    And this is a damnable doctrine.
    .

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    LϺαο Not A Communist Shill's Avatar
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    Rather humorous that the Pope has just threatened the "evil, blood-stained" Mafia with eternal damnation if they don't stop doing sins of finite value.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kadda1212 View Post
    DON'T PUT WORDS INTO MY MOUTH, ABSURD OR I'M GOING TO GIVE YOU HELL!!!!
    Give me hell.

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    kadda1212's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    This site just annoyed the HELL out of me.

    http://www.godandscience.org/doctrine/hell.html

    Make sure you also check out the reason god sends billions to hell..very informative! This is not my day. Looks like I am searching for things to get angry at. Do I want to think for one moment all my friends are in hell... I don't and I won't.


    idolatry adultery prostitution
    theft greed drunkenness
    swindling impurity witchcraft
    discord jealousy fits of rage
    dissensions factions and envy orgies
    lying cowardice unbelief
    sorcery sexual immorality homosexual offenses
    slander hatred selfish ambition
    abomination murder







    Pretty harsh!

    "You serpents, you brood of vipers, how shall you escape the sentence of hell?" (Matthew 23:33)
    "And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire" (Revelation 20:15)
    I know, Aylen, it's hard to understand.

    That side actually has some good information. He keeps very, very close to scripture, taking things almost always literally.
    The thing is, he should put the many, many verses in the Bible next to it, that speak of how God wants EVERYONE to be saved.
    See, I'm not a universalist or someone who says that all roads lead to Rome. I believe there is only one way. But it's quite simple: To believe that you are already saved through the final sacrifice Jesus gave on the cross.
    Those who accept that, are written down in the Book of Life. Everyone's name is written in the other book which records all the sins of the world (I guess the list he made on his page is still to short, I can think of thousands of things that separate you from God...), but those who are written in the Book of Life are redeemed.

    Why does not everyone go to heaven? There is no heaven without a God. God is life. But death is the consequence of sin, because that separates you from life and God. God already did everything to save everyone. There's still that little choice left everyone has to make for themselves.

    Some people say, God is cruel. But he already showed the greatest mercy that is possible. Why not believe in that mercy?

    That makes it more clear than my words, I guess:

    Love is like an energy, rushing in, rushing inside of me...

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    kadda1212's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Absurd View Post
    Give me hell.
    That sounds kind of masochistic.
    Love is like an energy, rushing in, rushing inside of me...

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    Quote Originally Posted by kadda1212 View Post
    That sounds kind of masochistic.
    We'll see who is masochist after I survive it. Premature judgements are premature.

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    Queen of the Damned Aylen's Avatar
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    @kadda1212 I am not going to answer here please see my response to Eliza on my blog.. it is why I do not believe in a merciful god.

    http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...ve-vs-Agnostic

    “My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.”​ —C.G. Jung
     
    YWIMW

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    kadda1212's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    @kadda1212 I am not going to answer here please see my response to Eliza on my blog.. it is why I do not believe in a merciful god.

    http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...ve-vs-Agnostic
    Ok, I'm going to read through that later. All I can say is, that I believe God to be more merciful than some people can imagine. He sees the heart of a person - and we humans don't have the authority to judge others. I believe that God's love is boundless and unconditional.
    Love is like an energy, rushing in, rushing inside of me...

  10. #250
    Serious Left-Static Negativist Eliza Thomason's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    This site just annoyed the HELL out of me.

    http://www.godandscience.org/doctrine/hell.html

    Make sure you also check out the reason god sends billions to hell..very informative! This is not my day. Looks like I am searching for things to get angry at. Do I want to think for one moment all my friends are in hell... I don't and I won't.


    idolatry adultery prostitution
    theft greed drunkenness
    swindling impurity witchcraft
    discord jealousy fits of rage
    dissensions factions and envy orgies
    lying cowardice unbelief
    sorcery sexual immorality homosexual offenses
    slander hatred selfish ambition
    abomination murder





    ...
    I did not read the site, its extensive, and not Catholic, and there are errors on the first page and there is no doubt in my mind there are better sources for truth!

    And contrary to what the author of the site said on that first page that you linked, there IS a purgatory, not just Heaven and Hell, and it is a place of mercy. Purgatory is basically a pre-Heaven, though, so basically he is right in that there is ultimately only two destination choices for every soul.

    Purgatory is a gift of Merciful God because we are not all ready for Heaven. Sometimes we die suddenly and sometimes our life was full of wrong turns, from one to another, and when we die we aren't quite Heaven material. Or, at all! Because its ultimately not who we are, our achievements or holiness, but who He is, and if we have any desire Him who so desires us. Sometimes we are blind on earth, often for reasons almost entirely beyond our control. but merciful God sees to it that we have an honest and true choice. Sometimes that choice might come just after death, I firmly believe.

    And if our life has been far from good when we choose God, we would not be comfortable yet in Heaven because it is a place of great love and many of us did not learn the lessons of love we were supposed to learn here on earth. So God gives the Heaven-bound a place of peace and mercy to learn the lessons they missed on earth so they will be comfortable when they get to Heaven. Purgatory is a sort of heaven, but not Heaven. Everyone there is on the way to Heaven and everyone there is grateful to be there. So says my Church, and I believe it.

    The author of that list of "why billions of people are in Hell" has no idea how many people are in Hell and no one on earth has the authority to say how many are there. However, we do know some are. And we also know that Heaven is fatly populated right now with thousands upon thousands of people who are were practitioners of every single thing on that list during their life on earth. Yes, so the author of that website should be mindful that when he gets to Heaven, he will be spending his eternity in loving fellowship with tons of people who practiced all of those things on his list their entire lives, not just theft etc.but even atrocities he never dreamed up.


    And also he should remember Mary Magdelene, of that expensive and reputedly immoral waterside leisure town of Magdala, who was a practicing prostitute,when she crossed paths with Our Lord Jesus. Jesus looked at that practicing prostitute with nothing but love and mercy in his eyes. Not judgement, like the pharisees, who would have snorted that she was Hell-bound. Whose look showed her who God is? And how would the author of that website have looked at this woman, who was so proudly successful in her immoral life? He should consider that.

    And that author should consider that this women, who less than three years before was living a life of great immorality and scandal, is the one whom Jesus compared to her chaste and good sister, telling good Martha that Mary had excelled her in love. Mary who had led such an immoral life, only recently! And among many fine people of the time who had lived exemplary and fine lives their entire lives, Jesus chose Mary of Magdala, whom hundreds of her contemporaries remembered as representing who knows how many things on that list, for the great honor and blessing of being the first to see Him after his Resurrection.

    Yes every kind of sin is terrible to God, but His love for us is so great. That is really what we should think about!

    As to hell, I have heard it on good authority from those who know Catholic teaching that those in Hell choose to be there. God is good, God is love, and those who choose hell do not want good, or God who is good, and they do not want Heaven. The want to go where there is no goodness.

    In my mind, a danger when we chose to do what our conscience tells us is wrong, is that we can very well be headed to Hell. Its like a crossroads, and when we choose wrong, we risk getting accustomed to wrong and comfortable with it, and more comfortable there than anywhere else. If we keep choosing wrong, by the end of our lives, we might end up preferring wrong. And when we die, preferring to choose to turn from good because we have learned to be repelled by good. And instead choose Hell for eternity, which woudl be terrible. Because once that choice is made, there is no going back. That is what Jesus said.

    However the good news is that if we get in a place where we are so comfortable with wrong and still have some spark of desire for good God can work with even that. He will pursue the lost all their lives and however much grace that person needs to choose right, God will give it. He truly is the Good Shepherd leaving the flock to pursue the lost sheep.

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    Didn't the Catholic Church recently downgrade the dogma of purgatory? and do they have any evidence whatsoever more than the trivial that Mary Magdelene was a prostitute?

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    Serious Left-Static Negativist Eliza Thomason's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    Didn't the Catholic Church recently downgrade the dogma of purgatory?
    No. Dogma never changes.

    Although some have talked about a literal fire of purgatory, and therefore have seen it as a type of hell to be frightened of, that has never been what the Church taught. The Catechism has never referred to it as a literal fire. Perhaps recently there has been clarification of what the Church has actually always taught, because popular misteachings on purgatory have been out there??

    There is no physical pain in purgatory. It is a "refining fire" for the soul, you could say, to grow in love. When we die we see the whole truth, not through the glass darkly as we do now, and we see our whole life and all our actions and all the motivations and how they affected others and that ripple affect in the lives of so many. For most of us that's not so easy to see, especially at the same time when we are seeing God's goodness and truth, and how it was in our life and we chose to reject it. There is sorrow in that an in the wrong choices we made and it can take time to accept ourselves and our shortcomings, and accept God's love. God gives us time and a just-right place to do that work at the rate we need, if we did not do it on earth, so we will be comfortable and happy in Heaven.

    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    and do they have any evidence whatsoever more than the trivial that Mary Magdelene was a prostitute?
    Not sure what you mean by trivial. We have rich traditions handed down by the Apostles and abundant writings from the first Popes and Bishops of the 1st and 2nd century that confirm those traditions. We have both scripture and tradition, unlike many of our Protestant brethren.

    "So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter" 2 Thess. 2:15

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    kadda1212's Avatar
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    10 According to the grace of God given to me, like a skilled master builder I laid a foundation, and someone else is building upon it. Let each one take care how he builds upon it. 11 For no one can lay a foundation other than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw— 13 each one's work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. 14 If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.
    (1. Corinthians 3, 10 - 15)

    That is the only source from scripture that proposes something like purgatory. What they made out of it in the middle ages, some kind of torture chamber where you have to spend several hundred year before finally being allowed to heaven, that is complete bullshit. Somehow this teaching was also the reason why the church split into Catholic and Protestant. Because they sold those letters of indulgence that diminish the time you have to spend in purgatory. And that's why Luther freaked out - rightfully. I don't know whether the Catholics changed their teachings or if they just evade the subject. When my grandma was a child she was still told, that for every Sunday she didn't attend the mass a couple of years would be added to her time in purgatory. That was 60-70 years ago. Disappointing.
    Love is like an energy, rushing in, rushing inside of me...

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    LϺαο Not A Communist Shill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    No. Dogma never changes.

    Although some have talked about a literal fire of purgatory, and therefore have seen it as a type of hell to be frightened of, that has never been what the Church taught. The Catechism has never referred to it as a literal fire. Perhaps recently there has been clarification of what the Church has actually always taught, because popular misteachings on purgatory have been out there??


    There is no physical pain in purgatory. It is a "refining fire" for the soul, you could say, to grow in love. When we die we see the whole truth, not through the glass darkly as we do now, and we see our whole life and all our actions and all the motivations and how they affected others and that ripple affect in the lives of so many. For most of us that's not so easy to see, especially at the same time when we are seeing God's goodness and truth, and how it was in our life and we chose to reject it. There is sorrow in that an in the wrong choices we made and it can take time to accept ourselves and our shortcomings, and accept God's love. God gives us time and a just-right place to do that work at the rate we need, if we did not do it on earth, so we will be comfortable and happy in Heaven.
    of course dogma changes...it has frequently done so, whether it be purgatory, the selling of indulgences, the intercession of dead people, the supposed transubstantiation, the infallibility of the pope and indeed even the idea of a pope.

    I don't know how you can say anything about purgatory when it is purely a fantasy that clearly originate in shady origins.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    Not sure what you mean by trivial. We have rich traditions handed down by the Apostles and abundant writings from the first Popes and Bishops of the 1st and 2nd century that confirm those traditions. We have both scripture and tradition, unlike many of our Protestant brethren.

    "So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter" 2 Thess. 2:15
    Very little is known about the apostles and popes of the 1st and 2nd centuries, never mind enough to know if most of what they allegedly wrote was written by them, or even if what was allegedly written by them was written in the same century.

    Taking just the four main gospels, the author of Matthew is unknown, and the authors of Mark, Luke, and John (if they were different people) are generally considered by non-partisan people to have not been written by...Mark, Luke, and John. Further, you will know that is also generally held that all four gospels are merely syntheses of maybe one or two original source documents...documents which record highly unlikely events to begin with. The books commonly attributed to Peter show that this individual had a huge say on the future church...much of their hang-ups of the modern day come from someone who by sheer personality forged his own dogma as he saw fit around some semi-mythological person. There is thus little merit in following scripture or tradition.

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    @<a href="http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin/member.php?u=694" target="_blank">Subteigh</a>: There are theologians who actually do believe the books were written by Mark, Luke, Matthew and John. The gospel of John was probably written by one of the apostles because he is the one that understood the essence of all of it the best.
    It's been a big discussion amongst theologians, but the arguments against it are pretty unsatisfactory.
    There's a youtube channel called "bibledex" in which they explain such things.
    And Dogma does not really change inside the Catholic church. And for whatever reason, it's a dogma that Mary went to heaven with her body. Who cares about stuff like that?
    But I like the new pope:
    http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=NZ9Ssvs5cgY
    Love is like an energy, rushing in, rushing inside of me...

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    Theologians are probably not going to be particularly neutral in their opinions.

    I think it is asking a lot to suppose that four anonymous books were written by those four disciples based on very little - essentially tradition. There is a lot to show that they originate from a common source...even word for word copying of passages in places. There are also the perplexing cases where descriptions of events flatly contradict each other. At least one of the editors also seemed wholly ignorant of the land of Palestine. There are also cases where whole passages that are now in the text simply did not exist in some of the earliest known copies...dating to 100-200 years after the supposed events happened. For example, the earliest examples of Mark have the ending as follows:
    When the Sabbath was over, Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James, and Salome bought spices so that they might go to anoint Jesus’ body. 2 Very early on the first day of the week, just after sunrise, they were on their way to the tomb 3 and they asked each other, “Who will roll the stone away from the entrance of the tomb?”

    4 But when they looked up, they saw that the stone, which was very large, had been rolled away. 5 As they entered the tomb, they saw a young man dressed in a white robe sitting on the right side, and they were alarmed.

    6 “Don’t be alarmed,” he said. “You are looking for Jesus the Nazarene, who was crucified. He has risen! He is not here. See the place where they laid him. 7 But go, tell his disciples and Peter, ‘He is going ahead of you into Galilee. There you will see him, just as he told you.’”

    8 Trembling and bewildered, the women went out and fled from the tomb. They said nothing to anyone, because they were afraid.
    While later editions have this added on, which is very damning:
    When Jesus rose early on the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had driven seven demons. 10 She went and told those who had been with him and who were mourning and weeping. 11 When they heard that Jesus was alive and that she had seen him, they did not believe it.

    12 Afterward Jesus appeared in a different form to two of them while they were walking in the country. 13 These returned and reported it to the rest; but they did not believe them either.

    14 Later Jesus appeared to the Eleven as they were eating; he rebuked them for their lack of faith and their stubborn refusal to believe those who had seen him after he had risen.

    15 He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18 they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well.”

    19 After the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, he was taken up into heaven and he sat at the right hand of God. 20 Then the disciples went out and preached everywhere, and the Lord worked with them and confirmed his word by the signs that accompanied it.
    Other parts that were added on and/or were noted as questionable by early scribes are things such as:
    "Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing" ...there is also an instance where Jesus says that the age of Satan was over, which is for "some reason" omitted from later editions.

    Let's not forget the gnostic texts that were left out essentially haphazardly, to the layperson. The bible in its current form has a lot of unusual things in it that just don't seem unusual because they are commonly known stories. When you see instances of things that are equally unusual striking you as odd from the gnostic books, it just shows how normalised odd stories\behavior can become. There is a story of Jesus when he was younger when he was carried by Joseph and Mary when some dragons popped out a cave and scared some children, but when Jesus step forward, the dragons just stopped and adored him.

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    Serious Left-Static Negativist Eliza Thomason's Avatar
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    Wow, @Subteigh, not sure how to answer this. I wonder what your religious foundation is? I am curious about the source of your boldly presented misinformation, which bears the credibility of a Jack Chick tract, and sounds about that deep.

    I can only tell you the truth: there is a far, far, more to all these subjects than you think. And it would help to keep in mind that people are not as stupid as you think.

    It is perhaps a "J" vulnerability to make hasty judgments? Not sure what else could be going on with you. You have a lot of really bad, really wrong, really lame info that is so far off the mark. And you have made some powerfully firm indictments with it! You seem to have your conclusions all quite finalized, too.

    You are completely wrong about the Dogma thing. It would help before you use that word to read up on what the Church considers to be Dogma. You did not.

    As to Papal Infallibility, you should learn about it. Its a truly interesting subject. Even the relatively few corrupt, sinful Popes never once made a false Dogma or infallible statement*. Which would have been really bad, because when a Pope makes a truly infallible statement, according to the Church's clear definition of what papal infallibility is, then that statement is true FOREVER, on earth,and in Heaven, and no future Pope can ever say, "Oops, last year, or 500 years ago, when the Church said that, they were actually wrong on that." Or, "We've changed our minds on that one now. What the Church means instead is this..." No. Cannot ever happen. Once said, its forever, and that leaves every new Pope less "room" than the ones before it. Really confines creativity!

    These things you think you know about and have the answers about you don't. If you want to know whats true, you should find out. But do go to a Catholic source to find out what Catholics really teach. It would be foolish to ask an angry atheist or a rabid anti-catholic what Catholics actually teach. Though, it looks like you already have.

    As to your dismissal of Holy Scripture, I have heard it said that there is more evidence that Jesus said every word and did every act recorded in scripture than there is that Julius Caesar ever lived and died. I bet its right, too.

    Your ideas about the gospels are far, far fetched. And no, they are not ideas that are "generally held". No. Your saying so doesn't make it true. These are crazy assertions you make. Also the early Church Fathers, you don't get that at all, either. Its easy to read their works on the Internet, if you haven't already closed your mind.

    Theologians may not be neutral in their opinions but they base their opinions in scholarly study, and you don't. Yet, you are far from neutral.

    Your idea that purgatory is "made up" and has "shady origins" is a shady idea indeed..

    The gnostic texts were certainly not left out haphazardly. These were not lost at the time scripture content was determined; they were everywhere. Lots of folks wanted to write their own imaginative version of the gospel story. Imagination is nothing new. The texts were were studied and discussed and agreed to be not true with logical argument. This was no haphazard process. Jesus after his Resurrection, and before He ascended to Heaven, used that time to found a Church and gave it authority in Heaven on earth and promised to be with that Church till the end of time. THAT Church decided what was infallible scripture, and they certainly did not do it haphazardly. It was very orderly. You can read about that process on the Internet, too, if you care to know what is true.

    You can look at the whole giant, giant Catholic Church that fills the whole world today and has been here since the first Pope, Peter, and two thousand years, and 265 other popes successively since, and you can't help but find things that are done wrong and said wrong, sometimes very wrong. And we have written millions and millions of things. Its easy to cull random things and construct an untrue crazy picture of what is Catholic with that. People do all the time.

    But the weird thing is, Baptism actually does not make all your future activity as white as snow. Just like the Iscariot, people, even in the very presence of God, can do wrong in the name of God. Yes. Like to put their own stamp on things and then say: "God said it!" Usually for their own selfish purposes. They pervert Catholic truth and can and do fool Catholics into believing its true. Because the fact is, you can fool all of the people, some of the time...

    Yes, so the people God has running His Church are human. However, the Omniscient God can use cracked pots to deliver the truth whole and unblemished, and He does. And even if the roof leaks in this Church, windows are broken, garbage is dumped on the grounds, and weeds are heaving up the sanctuary floor, the foundation is rock solid and will stand until the end of time.


    ___________________________________

    *I listened to an interview of an author who wrote a book about Papal Infallibility and he said his favorite part of the study was the corrupt Popes, how God did not allow them to make infallible statements and when they were about to, they would either change their mind just before, or take sick, or convert, or repent, or even die, but no Pope has ever made a wrong infallible statement, even if they had that intent.

    P.S. Here is a quote for you, Subteigh, from Bishop Fulton Sheen:

    "There are not a hundred people in America who hate the Catholic Church. There are millions of people who hate what they wrongly believe to be the Catholic Church — which is, of course, quite a different thing."
    Last edited by Eliza Thomason; 03-28-2014 at 03:46 AM.

  18. #258
    Mermaid with Stellar views SyrupDeGem's Avatar
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    Bibles have changed, the earliest complete bibles were not only different in many many places but at least one had a whole chapter changed (the resurrection of Jesus). In addition to this scribes had made notes in the margins and had been corrected in the margins. It is ridiculous to take the modern day bible as found in churches, at every word.

    Now this is a story all about how, my type got changed, turned upside down. Just wait for a minute and watch chatbox right there, & I'll tell how Gem became the moderator with blue hair.

    In typology central friended and praised, on the picture thread was where she spent most her days. Chilling out, selfies, relaxing all cool, And all typing some people and getting them schooled.

    When a couple of girls who were up to no good, Started annoying her & her friends in the forumhood, She got in one little flame war & got pissed off & said 'I'm moving in with that exboyfriend in the forum with the socionics toffs.

    So Gem pulls up to the forum for a year without being a hater, And yells to typocentral 'Yo creeps! Smell Ya later', Became a mod in her kingdom she was finally there, To sit on her throne as the mod with blue hair.

    InvisibruJim

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    Serious Left-Static Negativist Eliza Thomason's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kadda1212 View Post
    ...
    And Dogma does not really change inside the Catholic church. And for whatever reason, it's a dogma that Mary went to heaven with her body. Who cares about stuff like that?
    But I like the new pope:
    http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=NZ9Ssvs5cgY
    I love the video. Thanks for that. And yes, dogma doesn't change. Thank you. LOL, I once said Who cares to basically the same thing. Watch out and never say never!I I never imagined I'd be Catholic one day. Now The Assumption is a Feast Day I would never miss.

    Just some thoughts for thinking on, for fun, if you are interested. :

    Mary is the Mother of the body of Christ.

    Who does scripture say the Body of Christ is?

    So, whose mother??

    Mary, Mediatrix. Jesus came to us through Mary.

    Well, I could go on. And on. Yet, all these things did not convince me though, it took prayer. So I amnot trying to convince you of anything. I am so glad now to not only have a Heavenly Father but a Heavenly Mother, too! Like a real family. Just like Jesus, I too, have a created mother and a Divine Father. After I realized that she truly is my mother, I realized that my old tradition had essentially seen Mary as a woman God "used" to get his son here, then He was done with her (in some cases, passed her on to some other guy). But instead, like David crowning his mother Queen of Israel, Our Lord had his Mother crowned Queen of Heaven*. And we acknowledge her as Spouse of the Holy Spirit.

    *Martin Luther, for all his errors, always loved his Heavenly Mother and made sure to have a carved Mary Queen of Heaven on his tomb.

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    Serious Left-Static Negativist Eliza Thomason's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geminatronix View Post
    Bibles have changed, the earliest complete bibles were not only different in many many places but at least one had a whole chapter changed (the resurrection of Jesus). In addition to this scribes had made notes in the margins and had been corrected in the margins. It is ridiculous to take the modern day bible as found in churches, at every word.
    As to the changed chapter, I'm a skeptic, as plenty reputable, scholarly theologians and historians have not had this complaint. And plenty attention-seeking historians love to rewrite history, and all the time you can fool some of the people, so, you will get attention doing so! And Bible-bashing gets excellent press these days, guaranteed! So you can count on basking in the spotlight if you make such statements. You have to admit its a real draw.

    But many today say, "How can it be the same scripture, after so many years? It must have been tampered with!" But I say, how can it not be. Look at how accurately the Jews preserved scripture and tradition for many more years. No printing presses, either! Just scribes, who, if they mis-copied one word at the end of tens of thousands of careful writing, were required to throw the whole thing out and start all over from the beginning. At least, so I have heard.

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    Mermaid with Stellar views SyrupDeGem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    As to the changed chapter, I'm a skeptic, as plenty reputable, scholarly theologians and historians have not had this complaint. And plenty attention-seeking historians love to rewrite history, and all the time you can fool some of the people, so, you will get attention doing so! And Bible-bashing gets excellent press these days, guaranteed! So you can count on basking in the spotlight if you make such statements. You have to admit its a real draw.

    But many today say, "How can it be the same scripture, after so many years? It must have been tampered with!" But I say, how can it not be. Look at how accurately the Jews preserved scripture and tradition for many more years. No printing presses, either! Just scribes, who, if they mis-copied one word at the end of tens of thousands of careful writing, were required to throw the whole thing out and start all over from the beginning. At least, so I have heard.

    At least so I have heard at the end of a sentence beginning how can it not be so... it pretty disconcerting.

    The issue we have hear is blind belief. There is no reasoning with it whatsoever. Therefore all arguments are futile. I did not address you particularly but this is now the second time you are trying to engage me and I am wondering why. Honestly I'd prefer not to go there with you.

    Now this is a story all about how, my type got changed, turned upside down. Just wait for a minute and watch chatbox right there, & I'll tell how Gem became the moderator with blue hair.

    In typology central friended and praised, on the picture thread was where she spent most her days. Chilling out, selfies, relaxing all cool, And all typing some people and getting them schooled.

    When a couple of girls who were up to no good, Started annoying her & her friends in the forumhood, She got in one little flame war & got pissed off & said 'I'm moving in with that exboyfriend in the forum with the socionics toffs.

    So Gem pulls up to the forum for a year without being a hater, And yells to typocentral 'Yo creeps! Smell Ya later', Became a mod in her kingdom she was finally there, To sit on her throne as the mod with blue hair.

    InvisibruJim

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    Quote Originally Posted by rat1 View Post

    This passage you quoted stood out to me the most.
    I find the Christian attitude toward death especially interesting. Of course death is everywhere in nature.
    But for a Christian, death is viewed as a punishment... a damnation. In other cultures, like in south american, native american, indian cultures... death is viewed as a liberation. A return to bliss.
    How one looks upon death is a reflection life lived. Some die content... others in misery.
    A religions view on death is very telling.
    For a Christian, death is the ULTIMATE damnation.
    Why is that? What guilt drives this fear of death; of punishment and damnation?
    At the most unconscious level, Christianity is driven by child abuse. This is why the highest levels of the Roman Catholic church are permeated with child molesters.

    The original Christians were horrified of death...
    The Hebrew sect that wrote the New Testament, starting in ~70AD, began mummifying themselves. They believed when they died, their mummified corpses would be preserved and resurrected with the return of Christ; an event they expected to happen shortly.
    They actually removed their intestines and hung them on hooks symbolizing liberation from the sins of the body (sin was a drive originating in the intestines and genitals).
    Of course that never panned out.
    I'm not commenting on this topic (in general) as it is way beyond me and typically I tend towards "Live and Let Live." And to be honest I only skimmed the first page of this thread. Just wanted to point out, though, that in my father's Southern Apostolic-Pentecostal Christian family they do not view death like this at all. Death is always looked upon as a great freedom and release from the sins of the flesh. They always refer to death as "coming home" and kind of idealize it in some strange way. I don't know many Christians outside of that group of people associated with my father's family, so maybe other Christians (from different sects like say Catholics, Lutherans, etc) don't look at death the same way?

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    Serious Left-Static Negativist Eliza Thomason's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by epheme View Post
    I'm not commenting on this topic (in general) as it is way beyond me and typically I tend towards "Live and Let Live." And to be honest I only skimmed the first page of this thread. Just wanted to point out, though, that in my father's Southern Apostolic-Pentecostal Christian family they do not view death like this at all. Death is always looked upon as a great freedom and release from the sins of the flesh. They always refer to death as "coming home" and kind of idealize it in some strange way. I don't know many Christians outside of that group of people associated with my father's family, so maybe other Christians (from different sects like say Catholics, Lutherans, etc) don't look at death the same way?
    @pheme, you are totally right. This is how Christians view it. rat1 must have known individuals who referred to it in a different way, is all I can think. But you have it right.

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    Moderator xerx's Avatar
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    @Eliza Thomason What's your take on splinter Christian sects that interpret certain crucial parts of the bible differently?

    I'm on of the least religious persons in existence but I'm descended from a Christian sect which underemphasized the divine nature of Christ, going so far as to reject the label Mother of "God" for the Virgin Mary. The sect was branded as heretical in the 5th century during the reign of the emperor Theodosius II leading many of its supporters to flee the empire.

    Anyway, how would you have handled that? do you feel a communion with other Christian sects regardless of doctrinal differences?

    Is there anything they could do to ruffle your feathers?

    How do you feel about Judaism and Islam? Islam was argued to be a splinter sect of Christianity at many points in its history. Muslims recognize Jesus as a prophet and believe in his return during the apocalypse, to take two examples.

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    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RWYwBDqFsuE

    Protestantism and Authority

    @xerx

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    Serious Left-Static Negativist Eliza Thomason's Avatar
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    @Geminatronix, sure, I totally respect you on that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trevor View Post
    Trevor, nice. A reputable theologian! I have particular favorites of theologians, and they include Scott Hahn*, Jeff Cavins, Patrick Madrid.

    ...At least two of those are converts from Protestant, Bible-alone Christian traditions,maybe all three, which is part of the interest for me probably because that's me too. Can't remember about Cavins, but his Bible Study is the awesome best of the best. And Hahn's Scripture interpretations are perhaps the most astoundingly illuminating.

    As to youtube theology, there is one that is very on fire and passionate in his expression of religious matters... He has a sort of news format, having been a former newsman, and he has this toilet bowl analogy... he takes "Cafeteria Catholics" to task ...his name is slipping me... He can be controversially righteous. Kind of like the Rush Limbaugh for strictly orthodox Catholicism.... I only worry that he is too far to the right. But, as Andrew Greely said of Catholics, "Here comes everybody"...

    @xerx, Thanks for a thoughtful Q! I appreciate it! I will get back to it soon!.

    __________________

    *Oh, I see Scott Hahn has quite a few youtube talks himself. Here is a link that likely summarizes his book Rome Sweet Home -the book detailing his and his wife's conversion stories; the book which was the unexpected start for me on the road of becoming the last thing I ever though I'd be: Catholic.
    Last edited by Eliza Thomason; 03-30-2014 at 02:09 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by epheme View Post
    I'm not commenting on this topic (in general) as it is way beyond me and typically I tend towards "Live and Let Live." And to be honest I only skimmed the first page of this thread. Just wanted to point out, though, that in my father's Southern Apostolic-Pentecostal Christian family they do not view death like this at all. Death is always looked upon as a great freedom and release from the sins of the flesh. They always refer to death as "coming home" and kind of idealize it in some strange way. I don't know many Christians outside of that group of people associated with my father's family, so maybe other Christians (from different sects like say Catholics, Lutherans, etc) don't look at death the same way?
    Yes... but how do they look upon death for those who leave the church, who fail to live up to their religious standards, or for all those on the outside? They're going to hell, aren't they?
    In a way they view themselves as subject to this, but given certain precautions they'll avoid it. SO hooray. It's a bipolar attitude but it's really desperate.

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    Moderator xerx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trevor View Post
    Thanks Tut. (: Nice to know my ancestors are burning in hell over a political decision.

  29. #269
    LϺαο Not A Communist Shill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    Wow, @Subteigh, not sure how to answer this. I wonder what your religious foundation is? I am curious about the source of your boldly presented misinformation, which bears the credibility of a Jack Chick tract, and sounds about that deep.

    I can only tell you the truth: there is a far, far, more to all these subjects than you think. And it would help to keep in mind that people are not as stupid as you think.

    It is perhaps a "J" vulnerability to make hasty judgments? Not sure what else could be going on with you. You have a lot of really bad, really wrong, really lame info that is so far off the mark. And you have made some powerfully firm indictments with it! You seem to have your conclusions all quite finalized, too.

    You are completely wrong about the Dogma thing. It would help before you use that word to read up on what the Church considers to be Dogma. You did not.

    As to Papal Infallibility, you should learn about it. Its a truly interesting subject. Even the relatively few corrupt, sinful Popes never once made a false Dogma or infallible statement*. Which would have been really bad, because when a Pope makes a truly infallible statement, according to the Church's clear definition of what papal infallibility is, then that statement is true FOREVER, on earth,and in Heaven, and no future Pope can ever say, "Oops, last year, or 500 years ago, when the Church said that, they were actually wrong on that." Or, "We've changed our minds on that one now. What the Church means instead is this..." No. Cannot ever happen. Once said, its forever, and that leaves every new Pope less "room" than the ones before it. Really confines creativity!

    These things you think you know about and have the answers about you don't. If you want to know whats true, you should find out. But do go to a Catholic source to find out what Catholics really teach. It would be foolish to ask an angry atheist or a rabid anti-catholic what Catholics actually teach. Though, it looks like you already have.
    The differences from the modern bible are in comparison to the earliest complete New Testament - dating to the fourth century AD.

    It is completely arrogant for you to assume so many things about me, when I have spent many years as a Christian and have read much on such topics. Papal infallibility is an utterly boring subject and is one of many things that the Catholic sect of Christians follow with no biblical justification for it (not that they need it...they do need to justify why they can claim anything though). It seems that there has been an ad hoc moving of the goalposts on papal infallibility which I think somehow fuels you with pride where it is said that the pope is "only" infallible on matters that "agree" with church doctrine...which means that conveniently, the church can always be in the right, no matter how conservative or bizarre their current policies are. A few popes have expressed the fact that "of course" papal infallibility doesn't mean they are free from error. But then why have such a batshit policy in the first place? It has simply helped make the Catholic church a laughing stock for many years.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    As to your dismissal of Holy Scripture, I have heard it said that there is more evidence that Jesus said every word and did every act recorded in scripture than there is that Julius Caesar ever lived and died. I bet its right, too.
    Oh you do, do you? You are then clearly ignorant of history, and would use the gospels own account as "evidence" of many witnesses of Jesus, when in fact it may have been zero.

    You do know that Caesar wrote his own books, led thousands of people to war through much of Europe, met with numerous prominent generals and politicians of the Roman Empire, had public works dedicated to him by the people of Rome (i.e. the Senate), had busts made up of him, coins with portrait, and many speeches written about him, had a child with a famous queen of Egypt in his own life time?.

    It is also known in great detail where he was murdered and where he was cremated...right in the centre of Rome in front of thousands of people.

    There is far more evidence for Caesar than for Jesus, particularly of contemporary sources. Caesar was described in positive and negative terms in his own lifetime, whereas for Jesus, the earliest evidence was written several decades later by a historian who never met Jesus, who referred to him passing as a rabble-rouser...and it is not even clear he was referring to Jesus, as many people of that time referred to themselves as 'Christ'...that historian himself referred to many such people. Also, in that one source, it is obvious that a Christian from an even later time has written out some words and written over it, to mention briefly of his miracles. There is also a historic work which mentions prominent people of the first century AD Palestine which includes many miraclemen...and yet the supposed greatest is not even mentioned.

    It is laughable that you make the comparison to Caesar, because Caesar was made a god in his own lifetime...so if there is more evidence for Caesar than for Jesus, that must mean that Caesar is a god, right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    Your ideas about the gospels are far, far fetched. And no, they are not ideas that are "generally held". No. Your saying so doesn't make it true. These are crazy assertions you make. Also the early Church Fathers, you don't get that at all, either. Its easy to read their works on the Internet, if you haven't already closed your mind.

    Theologians may not be neutral in their opinions but they base their opinions in scholarly study, and you don't. Yet, you are far from neutral.
    When I say "generally held", I mean by contemporary scholars who are neutral. I do not refer to the billions of people around the world who are Christians. I think that wholly biased people should not be used (at least in isolation), although you seem to have the approach that only Catholics and Christians should speak on their own matters which is absurd.

    As it is, there was a study fairly recently which showed that atheists are actually far more knowledgeable on average in regards Christianity than Christians are.

    I don't believe that sticking to facts is closeminded. Believing something that is demonstrably false is very closeminded by comparison.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    Your idea that purgatory is "made up" and has "shady origins" is a shady idea indeed..
    Where even in the bible is purgatory explicitly spelt out? Sure, I can accept that it may be a long-lived superstition that has only fairly recently been defined. The bible only states that people are thrown straight into a pit of fire to face eternal damnation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    The gnostic texts were certainly not left out haphazardly. These were not lost at the time scripture content was determined; they were everywhere. Lots of folks wanted to write their own imaginative version of the gospel story. Imagination is nothing new. The texts were were studied and discussed and agreed to be not true with logical argument. This was no haphazard process. Jesus after his Resurrection, and before He ascended to Heaven, used that time to found a Church and gave it authority in Heaven on earth and promised to be with that Church till the end of time. THAT Church decided what was infallible scripture, and they certainly did not do it haphazardly. It was very orderly. You can read about that process on the Internet, too, if you care to know what is true.
    It was hardly orderly, it was voted on by a centralised commitee and imposed on fearful churches in far-flung places who slowly came round to the bible we have today (of which many different arrangements exist).


    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    You can look at the whole giant, giant Catholic Church that fills the whole world today and has been here since the first Pope, Peter, and two thousand years, and 265 other popes successively since, and you can't help but find things that are done wrong and said wrong, sometimes very wrong. And we have written millions and millions of things. Its easy to cull random things and construct an untrue crazy picture of what is Catholic with that. People do all the time.
    The truth is, the papacy simply isn't scriptual. Jesus never appointed Peter as pope. Jesus builds his church on himself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    But the weird thing is, Baptism actually does not make all your future activity as white as snow. Just like the Iscariot, people, even in the very presence of God, can do wrong in the name of God. Yes. Like to put their own stamp on things and then say: "God said it!" Usually for their own selfish purposes. They pervert Catholic truth and can and do fool Catholics into believing its true. Because the fact is, you can fool all of the people, some of the time...
    Considering that Jesus wanted to be sacrificed, Judas didn't do wrong in the name of God. He didn't for example waste money that could have been better spent on the poor. No Judas, no saviour.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    Yes, so the people God has running His Church are human. However, the Omniscient God can use cracked pots to deliver the truth whole and unblemished, and He does. And even if the roof leaks in this Church, windows are broken, garbage is dumped on the grounds, and weeds are heaving up the sanctuary floor, the foundation is rock solid and will stand until the end of time.
    Oh I don't know...I believe Christians are more altruistic than atheists and only somewhat less moral.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason;1008961
    ___________________________________

    *I listened to an interview of an author who wrote a book about Papal Infallibility and he said his favorite part of the study was the corrupt Popes, how God did not allow them to make infallible statements and when they were about to, they would either change their mind just before, or take sick, or convert, or repent, or even die, but no Pope has ever made a wrong infallible statement, even if they had that intent.

    P.S. Here is a quote for you, Subteigh, from Bishop Fulton Sheen:

    "There are not a hundred people in America who hate the Catholic Church. There are millions of people who hate what they wrongly believe to be the Catholic Church — which is, of course, quite a different thing."
    I did not rant against Catholicism. I don't believe people really do have a disjointed view of the Catholic Church...it is generally the case that this organisation has had a long and overarching effect on society that has sometimes been negative.
    Last edited by Not A Communist Shill; 03-30-2014 at 04:37 PM.

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    “Almost any religion can be explained to another person in about half an hour. But to know anything about astrophysics or biology or anything that really gives us an insight into the real beauty of the universe? That takes some years of study at least.” - A.C. Grayling

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    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    “Almost any religion can be explained to another person in about half an hour. But to know anything about astrophysics or biology or anything that really gives us an insight into the real beauty of the universe? That takes some years of study at least.” - A.C. Grayling
    Maybe Grayling is not capable of explaining astrophysics in half an hour. I suppose the basics of any matter can be explained in half an hour. You cannot explain every detail of a religion in half an hour either. Can you read the whole Bible in half an hour? I suppose not... It takes approximately 48 hours of nonstop reading. So, what A.C. Grayling says is slightly wrong.
    Love is like an energy, rushing in, rushing inside of me...

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    I think the point is that religions are at the basic level are very simple...there is little to teach about Christianity.

    Most adherents to Christianity ignore most of the bible because they find it too extreme or too inconvenient or because a later tradition has reshaped their faith.

    To even understand basic matters of physics that form the basis of understanding the universe would surely take more than half an hour to explain.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lungs View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    @lungs, I just don't know how to respond to something so gross and ugly. I showed SLI your picture and your quote and he says he doesn't know either.

    Now he is thinking. He says, "Its from someone who is hostile to Christianity and is expressing that hostility in a ... I don't know.... .... Christian sacrifice is being tarred with the same brush as the worse kind of Paganism.. Like something the Aztecs did... ... I don't have the theological preparation to take that on."

    I assure him that no one here is using much brains on this. But he is still thinking. He continues as if someone here is:

    "The Sacrifice of Christ is God's willingness to submit himself to the ultimate wickedness of man, and to forgive that, and the forgiveness is the redemption... He is not just a sacrifice; what happened to Jesus is what God didn't want, but allowed, knowing it was going to happen...." He continues and explains, "Its taking the worse man has to give and turning it into good."

    So there you go, lungs. My SLI was able to take what you said more seriously than me. To me, it looks like just hate, narrow-minded, ignorant prejudice, adopted mindlessly and whole-hog. But SLI saw something more and took you seriously and that's what he said. I guess that's why we need Duals.

    Teaching your child intolerance and hate of religion and teaching him lies about other religions is child abuse. To raise a child without religion is sad indeed.

    We are made upright; we turn our heads heavenward to worship, we don't have to stare at the ground like animals.

    .
    The image lungs posted, that you find so ugly and offensive is profound to me. I wasn't ready to respond to this at the time it was posted but have discussed in depth with my therapist so I am ready to share now.

    In my mind the image of the little girl bathing in blood is profound because it is true for me. Granted it was not blood. It was water. Scalding hot water in a bathtub used to punish my sister and me by a sadistic religious aunt, who would tell us all about hell when she was bathing our sins away. I would try to use my toes to turn on some cold water and when she caught me it was terrifying because she would drain the tub add more hot water and let my sister out before me. But I refused to cry or repent. I stayed in the tub, defiantly, until the water got cool and she would finally let me out because my mom or uncle were in they're way home. I didn't tell either. Not until I was an adult and my mom was in shock. I told her not to worry about it since she had to leave us with someone and who doesn't trust family, usually.

    So someone trying to rationalize that image makes me sick. It is what it is and the symbolism is powerful. My religious aunt is only part of the reason I spit my personalty over and over until I was a complete mess by 13 and now deal with a psychological water allergy that I still can't get rid of.My heart is pounding so hard right now that I can't finish this post.

    “My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.”​ —C.G. Jung
     
    YWIMW

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    Is that image more offensive than the idea of a being who would punish unbelieving children killed in some genocide with eternal damnation? Why is such a being more moral than the genocidal tyrant? At least the tyrant had a sense of proportion.

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    Youtube videos are spammed with comments about the rapture coming, now. haha Any world events to them means it is time to prepare. The "rapture" has been preached to me for as long as I can remember and it is always, "just around the corner". That keeps people in a spiritual psychological hostage situation. If I suddenly disappear and ya'll left behind, you know what happened.

    Beam me on up.

    Last edited by Aylen; 03-31-2014 at 08:34 PM.

    “My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.”​ —C.G. Jung
     
    YWIMW

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    Lel, lungs made some SLI uncomfortable. Priceless.

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    Perfect song for this thread. I have explored so many spiritual beliefs that I am exhausted from it. I suggest people check out the Tao Te Ching...simple and relaxing.



    “My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.”​ —C.G. Jung
     
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    Exercise is simple, free and relaxing as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    Maybe I should take a vacation to the IEI Resort and Spa. heh
    Your choice. I have my 'ranch'...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    The image lungs posted, that you find so ugly and offensive is profound to me. I wasn't ready to respond to this at the time it was posted but have discussed in depth with my therapist so I am ready to share now.

    In my mind the image of the little girl bathing in blood is profound because it is true for me. Granted it was not blood. It was water. Scalding hot water in a bathtub used to punish my sister and me by a sadistic religious aunt, who would tell us all about hell when she was bathing our sins away. I would try to use my toes to turn on some cold water and when she caught me it was terrifying because she would drain the tub add more hot water and let my sister out before me. But I refused to cry or repent. I stayed in the tub, defiantly, until the water got cool and she would finally let me out because my mom or uncle were in they're way home. I didn't tell either. Not until I was an adult and my mom was in shock. I told her not to worry about it since she had to leave us with someone and who doesn't trust family, usually.
    Aw, Aylen.
    So someone trying to rationalize that image makes me sick. It is what it is and the symbolism is powerful. My religious aunt is only part of the reason I spit my personalty over and over until I was a complete mess by 13 and now deal with a psychological water allergy that I still can't get rid of.My heart is pounding so hard right now that I can't finish this post.
    So sorry, Aylen.
    You seek a great fortune, you three who are now in chains. You will find a fortune, though it will not be the one you seek.
    But first you must travel a long and difficult road, a road fraught with peril.
    You shall see things, wonderful to tell. You shall see a... cow... on the roof of a cotton house. And, oh, so many startlements.
    I cannot tell you how long this road shall be, but fear not the ob-stacles in your path, for fate has vouchsafed your reward.
    Though the road may wind, yea, your hearts grow weary, still shall ye follow them, even unto your salvation
    .


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pukq_XJmM-k

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