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Thread: Dimensionality Addendum

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    Haikus niffer's Avatar
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    Lightbulb Dimensionality Addendum

    I've talked to some people about this idea before. As I'll be having less time around on here I figure it would be an ideal time to drop it down and let it stew around.

    I want to propose an idea that slightly augments the original 4D dimensionality theory. Instead of 4 dimensionality levels, each function sits at a slightly different level.



    Here's the reasoning behind this concept:

    1) PoLR is the weakest, least controlled function.
    2) Information elements don't exist in absolute forms on their own, but instead exist in balance or in opposite proportion to their dual IE.

    What this would imply, is that the demonstrative function, which houses the IE that is dual to the PoLR, would have the strongest dimensionality in each individual's TIM.


    Addressing the rest of the functions, we can order them inside the structure.

    This creates the following ordering in dimensionality:

    Demonstrative > Lead > Ignoring > Creative > Hidden Agenda > Role > Dual Seeking > PoLR



    Please share what your thoughts on this are. Criticism will be necessary.

    @thehotelambush @lavos @Rebelondeck @strangeling @ anyone else who likes theoretical stuff
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    Well, you might be onto something. In some russian source, the demonstrative was described as the element in which the person is "a magician" at (literal words). This might imply that the person is even better at their demonstrative, than their base.

    Some Q's :

    - Any reason for that particular ordering beyond Demo > Lead ?

    - What definition are you using for "dimensionality" ? More dimensionality would imply it is also "stronger"?

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    Quote Originally Posted by lavos View Post
    Some Q's :

    - Any reason for that particular ordering beyond Demo > Lead ?
    Well this is meant as a slight addendum to the original theory of the 4 levels of strength. I'm assuming there's enough evidence that's been picked up over time where everything else holds in the original theory. The fixed proportional duality of IE concept of course is carried over to all the other IEs here.

    - What definition are you using for "dimensionality" ? More dimensionality would imply it is also "stronger"?
    The same definitions used by the original dimensionality theory. It has a lot more to do with ability and skill relative to experience, and nuanced usage capabilities, than strength itself per se.
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    Generally the "weakest" function is considered to be the 5th function (suggestible). Not 4th (vulnerable).

    This is because the 4th function, at least in the traditional Model A, is consciously accessible. By actively going against their inclination to avoid this function, and exerting mental energy, people can sometimes achieve some pretty good results with their 4th function. This is more than can be said of the 5th function, which is usually depicted as helplessly incompetent and no amount of effort or introspection can force it to improve.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nefnaf View Post
    Generally the "weakest" function is considered to be the 5th function (suggestible). Not 4th (vulnerable).
    Can you provide some sources which make this claim?

    In the traditional Model A, I'm quite certain the PoLR is always labled as "weakest, most vulnerable function". It's in its name too, "point of least resistance".

    I don't think even colloquially, most people believe the PoLR to be stronger than the suggestive. The same strength, maybe.
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    What parameters would this model use to differentiate between the functions?

    SSS uses 4 parameters of Experience, Norms, Situation, and Time (link) for their 4D model but with this ordering you'll have to introduce more parameters i.e. you'd have to explain what makes Demonstrative be a "dimension above" Leading.

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    Quote Originally Posted by silke View Post
    with this ordering you'll have to introduce more parameters
    Why?

    I'm using the same definitions/parameters. The "ladder" is just elongated with this new version.
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    (edited)
    Last edited by lavos; 04-26-2018 at 06:13 AM.

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    &papu silke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by niffer View Post
    Why?
    Show how it works with 4 parameters then.

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    Quote Originally Posted by silke View Post
    Show how it works with 4 parameters then.
    Oh, I see what you're referring to now.

    I don't think I would draw such hard lines between the 4 parameters with this addendum. Something along the lines of what the original theory proposed would be fine I think, i.e. the same functions would correspond roughly to the parameters already given to the 4 dimensions.

    In other words what I'm saying is, the difference is probably not massive in the first place. I also don't think it's necessarily quite as clear cut in reality as the original theory proposes I guess.
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    I have some more thoughts on this subject:

    - The demonstrative is a very unique function, because it's the only one the user has decent proficiency in out of one pair. So skill in it must be very sharp. Also, it is used to "cover" the dual's PoLR. Even though you are strong in it, at the same time it is something you really do not care about.
    - It is a contact function, which means that you operate the environment with it, whereas the base just sits there.
    - It is the same IM element as the quasi-identical, who has it their base, but it does not operate in the same way. It is detached from the dual element from the pair, and instead uses the creative "as ground".
    - As an example of this, you have have an ILE-Ne like Troll nr 007 who is able to draw correalations (such as with DCNH), but these correlation must be grounded on something tangible. While I as a LIE, am able to draw correlations between intangible things such as I did here.
    -So it can be concluded that they do have the same dimensionality, but that they do operate differently. This applies to all IM's that have the same dimensionality (but the best example is Demo - Base).

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    Quote Originally Posted by lavos View Post
    -So it can be concluded that they do have the same dimensionality, but that they do operate differently. This applies to all IM's that have the same dimensionality (but the best example is Demo - Base).
    How? The connections you drew from that to come to this conclusion aren't really clear about it.

    Certainly they're similar in dimensionality. And as you pointed out, they do have qualities that make their strength and consistency of manifestation compared to each other disputable. I'm not arguing that. What I'm trying to say is that there should be slight differences in pure strength/ability as it's been outlined in the original dimensionality theory, and there is logic pertaining to the Model A theory's structure to back it up.

    To reiterate, I'm talking about a more subtle difference here.
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    Quote Originally Posted by niffer View Post
    Oh, I see what you're referring to now.

    I don't think I would draw such hard lines between the 4 parameters with this addendum. Something along the lines of what the original theory proposed would be fine I think, i.e. the same functions would correspond roughly to the parameters already given to the 4 dimensions.

    In other words what I'm saying is, the difference is probably not massive in the first place. I also don't think it's necessarily quite as clear cut in reality as the original theory proposes I guess.
    Well it does seem like SSS 4D model is missing something as it makes no differentiation between functions that have same dimensionality. The way they present their model the PoLR is no different from the Suggestive. Though I'm not sure that adding more levels ie a ranking within a ranking solves that problem. It's more like an enantiomer/mirror image split.

    From personal experience, I don't feel like I have a greater handle on Demonstrative but rather Leading/Ignoring cuz of the Leading function subtype. For Leading subtypes the use of Creative/Demonstrative is rather sporadic and shaky.

    Perhaps @TheShadyMountainHobbit will have some more suggestions to throw this way.

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    @lavos What I'm saying is that this structure seems to me to be the only logical conclusion given these two axioms:

    Quote Originally Posted by niffer View Post
    1) PoLR is the weakest, least controlled function.
    2) Information elements don't exist in absolute forms on their own, but instead exist in balance or in opposite proportion to their dual IE.
    @silke would like to know your thoughts on this too
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    Quote Originally Posted by niffer View Post
    @silke would like to know your thoughts on this too
    I'd agree with the second statement, however, the first one is not that clear. I've seen the PoLR being described as the greatest weakness and, concurrently, the greatest strength and would say that there is something to this observation. We seem to have greatest degrees freedom of actions and opinions on the PoLR element, but those degrees get expressed as a rejection or violation. Same applies to the Suggestive, but unlike the PoLR it gets integrated rather than rejected.

    There is some rejection/integration splitting there that nobody has managed to quite capture and describe. & enough theory for me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by silke View Post
    I'd agree with the second statement, however, the first one is not that clear. I've seen the PoLR being described as the greatest weakness and, concurrently, the greatest strength and would say that there is something to this observation. We seem to have greatest degrees freedom of actions and opinions on the PoLR element, but those degrees get expressed as a rejection or violation. Same applies to the Suggestive, but unlike the PoLR it gets integrated rather than rejected.
    I see this phenomenon as being more proof of the PoLR and Demonstrative existing at the most extreme poles.

    I would sort of liken it to how the second instinctual variant would be stronger/stable/more flexible than the first instinctual variant in a way because it has more balance and less of a strong all-consuming fixation over it. Comparing the first to the demonstrative and the second to the base here, respectively. Or we could also say, the first to the PoLR and second to the suggestive as in your example.
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    Standard (no subtype) Dimensionality:

    4D: Lead = Demonstrative
    3D: Creative = Ignoring
    2D: Role = Mobilizing
    1D: Seeking = PoLR


    "Advanced" Dimensionality:

    Inert (first function) Subtype:
    4D: Lead > Demonstrative
    3D: Ignoring > Creative
    2D: Mobilizing > Role
    1D: PoLR > Seeking

    Contact (second function) Subtype:
    4D: Demonstrative > Lead
    3D: Creative > Ignoring
    2D: Role > Mobilizing
    1D: Seeking > PoLR


    I've written more about the subject here.
    Last edited by Olimpia; 04-26-2018 at 09:13 AM.
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    Default possibly my favorite take on dimensionality so far

    Quote Originally Posted by niffer View Post
    Demonstrative > Lead > Ignoring > Creative > Hidden Agenda > Role > Dual Seeking > PoLR
    Sounds most in line with a person's functional strength, from the vantage point of someone else.

    Producing functionality (2, 4, 6, 8) is more "do or die" than accepting functionality (1, 3, 5, 7).

    Dimensionality awards one point for same-verted fxn (1, 3, 6, 8) and two points for same-club fxn (1, 2, 7, 8).

    Ignoring/7 could be a more complete opposite to PoLR/4 -- a strong, low-stakes, barely-conscious functionality, versus a relatively underpowered, overwatched, non-native, fragile functionality.

    From the top, we'd once again have 8/sbp > 1/sba > 7/sca > 2/scp > 6/wbp > 3/wba > 5/wca > 4/wcp. Functional producing, amplifying apparent dimensionality extremes -- cool stuff, totally usable model.
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    Awesome @woofwoofl

    I'm not very familiar with accepting/producing so that's super helpful. Will have to look into it more.

    Nice re contrasting polr and ignoring
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    demonstrative and ignoring compromise the least in local space which is probably why they seem so strong. as to base I suggest reading this. i think base has its fingers so deep in a persons reality its hard to understand just how powerful it is because it subtly transforms and translates things into its own personal language, to fully comprehend what this must be like for a different base function is almost impossible

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bertrand View Post
    demonstrative and ignoring compromise the least in local space which is probably why they seem so strong. as to base I suggest reading this. i think base has its fingers so deep in a persons reality its hard to understand just how powerful it is because it subtly transforms and translates things into its own personal language, to fully comprehend what this must be like for a different base function is almost impossible
    I think this concept is more about the philosophical impact on life of the base. I'm not focusing on theoretical influence on POV or personal values etc. with this idea I'm proposing, only features of objective skill level as is indicated in the original dimensionality theory.
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    alright well you predefined the ranks up front by an ideational contortion of "objective skill level", that's what I'm saying... built into your definition of objective skill is a kind of locality bias, since what is manifest across that level is considered more "objective" i.e.: real. demonstrative can overcome the most resistance in a room, but you're throwing out time at the onset in the name of it being a purely "philosophical" consideration as if such considerations hadn't exerted much greater force comparatively, in the final analysis. this is a straightforward scheme of power ranking that ignores Ni and Ne, namely by reducing out force in time and refusing to consider that base inasmuch as it frames the entire world for a person can't be said to be less powerful (especially when you consider that person's effect on the non time or spacebound sphere of human affairs), except from a very narrow lens. in the end, what you're saying is that these are the local power rankings which is my initial point

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bertrand View Post
    alright well you predefined the ranks up front by an ideational contortion of "objective skill level", that's what I'm saying... built into your definition of objective skill is a kind of locality bias, since what is manifest across that level is considered more "objective" i.e.: real
    Whatever, I'm just talking about this http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...y-of-Functions .
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    @silke, thanks for the mention

    I don't see a use in further ranking the function unless there is a useful scale. Not to say the pairs of functions are the same, they are obviously not, only that there are many ways to divide them up. Just using the function dichotomies, is the scale based on ranking mental-vital, accepting-producing, inert-contact or valued-subdued functions? None of them seem to stand out as clearly affecting strength and you could probably make a subtle argument for any of these. The dimensionality theory is based on a clear, but secondary difference in aptitude between introverted and extroverted function (which I agree with).

    @niffer, it is very weird that you would rank the demonstrative above the base. The base is always first in my mind. The only way I could see justifying that order is the base is constantly being used, but the demonstrative is not, so you have an option to choose your battles and only apply the demonstrative function when you know you'll get a good result. These are significant, but pale in comparison of the results of your lifestyle cause by blindly pursuing your base. If you imagine your link in the benefit chain, I would say your benefactor clearly takes your demonstrative element more seriously than you, and you likewise have an edge on your beneficiary with respect to your base.

    From my experience, the producing functions are more unbound than the accepting (because the base is not pinning their expression), and have a much wider range in development balance. When you are assessing a person in time, not the archetype, impression of 'strength', as in ability and focus, varies a lot.

    /
    I find @Olimpia 's theory [link] very interesting, because I can see how shifting mental energy from the base function could effectively make other functions more developed than the base, but I have 2 problems. First, skill and competence increases from practice, not dimensionality, which is why it is used by many schools as the go to metric. Second, I don't take subtype models seriously because there is no consensus - I only see them as a mental exercise in illustrating normal ranges in behavior. Also, the creative and contact subtype models are technically different and shouldn't be conflated. A strong emphasis on the creative function would decrease focus on the demonstrative since the elements are antithetical. But this is fine if it is just short hand, I hate unnecessary jargon.
    Last edited by Lao Tzunami; 04-26-2018 at 01:12 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by niffer View Post
    Whatever, I'm just talking about this http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...y-of-Functions .

    yeah this goes to nefnaf's point where you rated the vital functions as more "powerful" than their mental counterparts, in a certain sense the vital functions persist and endure better, on the other hand they're more susceptible to manipulation and generally lack self awareness and to that extent control. suggestive for example doesn't tire in a environment heavy with its function, and demonstrative does not concede space, ignoring passively limits its opposed attitude. all of this entails an interpretation of what is more powerful that determines the rank structure, but is subjective. so there is a kind of irony to calling it objective. in general you've just inadvertently made the distinction between vital and mental, on the basis of their enduring qualities, and ranked them in order (i.e.: rotely arranged vital>mental), which is where the interpretive step took place. its essentially a hierarchical arrangement of what we already know but according to your subjective values. the only fundamentally new information is the reflection of your values, by way of the rank order, in other words, you've told us something about yourself by supplying your interpretation but nothing new about the functions themselves, although that is sort of how it is presented, mainly because you present yourself as the arbiter of what is objective, like the human measuring stick Singu longs for

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheShadyMountainHobbit View Post
    The only way I could see justifying
    Do you have anything to say about the reasoning / actual content of my original post?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bertrand View Post
    all of this entails an interpretation of what is more powerful that determines the rank structure, but is subjective.
    How?

    Anyway you seem to concede that it aligns with the original content of the theory in any case. I didn't pre-determine anything myself there lol.
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    genius!

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    Quote Originally Posted by niffer View Post
    Do you have anything to say about the reasoning / actual content of my original post?
    ...well if you want me to be more specific, if you are ranking the demonstrative function above the base only because you rank the PoLR last, this goes against reference material and my experience, proving your reasoning wrong.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheShadyMountainHobbit View Post
    ...well if you want me to be more specific, if you are ranking the demonstrative function above the base only because you rank the PoLR last, this goes against reference material my experience, proving your reasoning wrong.
    What reference material are you using?
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    Quote Originally Posted by ooo View Post
    genius!
    Thanks m8.
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    Quote Originally Posted by niffer View Post
    Thanks m8.
    np.

    it's supported by one important thing, that would prove your reasoning by going the other way around: the ID, and with it the 8th function, the strongest function of the ID somehow, is doubly strong, because our selves are made by just a tiny part of conscious work, and all the rest is unconscious. this was the idea both for Freud, Jung (whose model of the psyche inspired the Model A) and for all the peeps who still work with the psyche today.

    so if we recognize that the subconscious is our greatest resource it goes hand in hand with the Polr's least developed function. and it likely proves that because our unconscious least developed function is the weakest of our greatest part, so likely our base must be as strong...anyway, since we all operate because of a balance, this just opens the possibility of the confinements that socionics puts in each type... it was a problem already Jung pointed out I guess because "each irrational has its greatest counter-balance in rationality", yet "each Se has its greatest counter-balance in Ni".

    I think subtypes really help one solve this contradiction in some bits... but we're walking contradictions ourselves, and that's the greatest part.

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    @squark hlep
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    This rests on the premise that the polr is weaker than the suggestive, why is this true? Isn't it just the fact that it is unvalued that makes it more of a weak spot? I don't see why this has to be related to dimensionality. Because the argument that the polr is weaker than the suggestive, and that therefore the demonstrative should be stronger than the lead to create balance, could also be reversed into the argument that, because the lead is stronger than the demonstrative, therefore the suggestive should be weaker than the polr to create balance. I see both of these arguments as somewhat arbitrary and baseless for that reason. If 1D + unvalued makes it 0.5D, then it could also be argued that 4D + valued makes it 4.5D.

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    @niffer, using wikisocion for simplicity

    The leading function, also called the base, program, or simply first function, is an individual's most dominant psychic function. It describes in general terms the person's most comfortable thinking patterns, perspective on life, state of mind, and behavioral style as well as their positive motivational forces (what they pursue most vigorously when they have a choice).
    A person uses (the demonstrative) element mainly as a kind of game, or to ridicule those who he thinks take it too seriously. This function is often intentionally used against its conventional usage simply to prove a point in favor of person's creative function.
    And if you want to be difficult and require a primary (non wiki) source, I'm sure I could find many, I just don't want to spend the time sifting and synthesizing them right now. What I am saying is not controversial, I have never heard anyone, not even Gulenko, say the demonstrative function is the strongest.
    Last edited by Lao Tzunami; 04-26-2018 at 04:54 PM.

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    @TheShadyMountainHobbit @Viktor @nefnaf etc. call me a bitch but here I've compiled some resources for you which frame the PoLR as the weakest function in the TIM:

    http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...-of-the-Psyche

    Notice the stark contrast in the description between the Vulnerable and the Suggestive function:

    4. Vulnerable function

    The vulnerable function is also called the Point or Place of Least Resistance (PoLR) or sensitive function. The element in this function creates a feeling of frustration and inadequacy. A person does not understand the importance of this element entirely, and it can easily lead to painful consequences if not adequately considered.

    However, to directly engage this function creates feelings of insecurity and distress. One reason why the vulnerable function is so difficult to engage is because three other conscious functions come before it, making this one the most difficult to comprehend. Often an alternative approach may be found from the view of the mobilizing function. Because of the psychological disincentives to using the vulnerable function, people usually try to ignore information related to it, and in extreme cases do so even in situations where it is most relevant. Even with a theoretical understanding of how this element works, it is difficult to turn it into practical norms of behavior. One can "develop" the vulnerable function by recognizing that it is actually important in certain real-life circumstances. Even if the subject recognizes this, he will still usually try to avoid taking responsibility for it himself, or develop a minimalist or non-traditional approach (possibly using other functions) that is enough to satisfy one's own needs. The presence of a dual usually dissolves any concern there might be about how to approach matters of the vulnerable function.

    Some examples:

    A type with PoLR (ILI and SLI) does not see the point of activities revolving around excessive displays of emotion or behavior that does not reach a concrete or tangible outcome. They would rather keep conversations serious and to the point, for he/she is overwhelmed by such emotional expression, making it quite difficult to express themselves. In social interactions they will make a serious effort to reduce their level of emotive expressiveness such as being too joyful or sad, believing that showing these signs will make them vulnerable to be influenced by others. They don't hold quite a high standard for how people as a group feel about something (even if outnumbered by many when making a personal decision), and instead value situations where they can speak their own subjective opinions and feelings freely.

    A type with PoLR (LSI and ESI) has a difficult time understanding ideas that seem new or novel, especially when it has no tangible effect on their lives. Leaving little to chance, they are able to plan out their lives for years ahead of time. This results in difficulties handling unexpected problems in their lives that put a halt on their usual pursuits, and they tend to fear all the possible "what-if's" when those problems prevent them from seeing a clear future. When unsure about something, these types can either avoid making any changes at all or making too quick and reckless of a decision, either of which resulting in missed opportunities.

    A type with PoLR (EIE and LIE) has little patience for sitting back and focusing on how they can physically better themselves in the moment, especially if they are involved in what they view as a very important matter. They would much rather try to act on their long-term priorities instead of their physical comfort, resulting in problems such as an inability to be aware or care about present realities, failure to realize the physical or mental strains they are placing on themselves, and being generally unable to relax and take the focus off of their long-term pursuits.

    A type with PoLR (SEI and IEI) tends to reject facts given from a source which they are personally unfamiliar with, firmly believing they can make their own decisions that are solely based on their own perspective and reasoning about it. They will tend to become defensive when questioned about their rationale or efficiency, pointing out that there is no such thing as objective "fact". Also, these types experience a significant level of stress in tending to day-to-day must do's and responsibilities in life (like routine maintenance or working productively), manifesting itself as a general laziness or hyper-diligence.



    5. Suggestive function

    The suggestive function is also called the dual-seeking function. The subject finds it difficult to be overwhelmed by this element, since it perfectly complements and drives the activity of the leading function. The more it is present in his daily life, the more he will naturally adapt to its presence. They are easily entertained by this kind of information, and its sustained presence creates a soothing psychological effect. If someone experiences a deficiency of it in his environment, he may attempt to supply it himself, but become soon exhausted. Unlike the mobilizing function, concentrated and prolonged doses from other people are received positively (depending somewhat on the individual's degree of dualization).

    People focus deeply on the use of this function in day-to-day life, always attempting to digest information received from the environment through this aspect of reality. This is because it complements the leading function, making an individual not only more understanding but more satisfied about their pursuits in the Ego.
    The above is also available on Sociotype.com http://www.sociotype.com/socionics/functions/Super-Ego .

    Here's a typical opinion from the community which shows the general consensus being that the PoLR is weakest:

    https://www.reddit.com/r/mbti/commen...trong_is_polr/

    "PoLR" is Socionics name for a function that is the reverse of "activating" function, that corresponds to tertiary function of MBTI. The abbreviation means "point of least resistance". This function is considered to be the weakest function in the psyche of a type, and every type has exactly 1 function that is its PoLR.
    Another piece of proof is the infamous "PoLR hit" concept that keeps coming up again and again. ( http://www.socionics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1487 ) Yet we have no "suggestive hit" concept. Why is that?


    So if you guys really think that the PoLR is stronger than the suggestive potentially, you're the ones who are flat out wrong, not me. There's plenty of evidence suggesting too that it is even weaker than the suggestive, beyond just being equal to it.

    So far nobody has offered up any sources stating the contrary, but I'll give you guys the benefit of the doubt .... the challenge to find something is still open to you.
    Last edited by niffer; 04-26-2018 at 02:31 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by niffer View Post
    Here's the reasoning behind this concept:

    1) PoLR is the weakest, least controlled function.
    2) Information elements don't exist in absolute forms on their own, but instead exist in balance or in opposite proportion to their dual IE.
    So you're saying how you are applying your second proposition is false. Ok

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheShadyMountainHobbit View Post
    The leading function, also called the base, program, or simply first function, is an individual's most dominant psychic function. It describes in general terms the person's most comfortable thinking patterns, perspective on life, state of mind, and behavioral style as well as their positive motivational forces (what they pursue most vigorously when they have a choice).
    I've already explained that I'm not talking about psychic/life dominance (including comfort, free will, and everything else that was listed) here, but natural ability and nuanced application of an IE in the function.

    A person uses (the demonstrative) element mainly as a kind of game, or to ridicule those who he thinks take it too seriously. This function is often intentionally used against its conventional usage simply to prove a point in favor of person's creative function.
    Again, I'm not talking about valuation, attitudes, etc. here. And I'm not sure why you've bolded the second part with the creative here.

    These thing are all irrelevant to dimensionality in the first place. Here, this link which I linked in reply to Bertrand is what I'm referring to http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...y-of-Functions . The fact that you are mentioning these things is antithetical to the point.
    [Today 07:57 AM] Raver: Life is a ride that lasts very long, but still a ride. It is a dream that we have yet to awaken from.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheShadyMountainHobbit View Post
    So you're saying how you are applying your second proposition is false. Ok
    Er.... no? What are you talking about?
    [Today 07:57 AM] Raver: Life is a ride that lasts very long, but still a ride. It is a dream that we have yet to awaken from.

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    I'm okay with saying the vulnerable function is potentially the most painful. Why not just say the demonstrative function is the least painful @niffer and leave it at that? Something that you are doing expertly well despite not caring about it is difficult to criticize. The leading function is stronger, but if you happen to fail at that point, you fail at your identity.

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