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Thread: The Ukraine Question

  1. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by Poptart View Post
    Zelensky addressed the people of Russia in a speech he made earlier today. Translation below:


    "I have initiated a call today with the president of the Russian Federation. The result - silence. Although silence should be in Donbass.


    That is why today, I want to come with an appeal to all citizens of Russia. Not as President. I am appealing to the people of Russia as a citizen of Ukraine. We share more than two thousand kilometres of border. Around it, today, is your army: almost 200,000 soldiers; thousands of military units. Your leadership has approved their movement towards us. Towards the territory of another country. This step can become the start of a big war on the European continent. The whole world is talking about what can happen any day now. A reason can appear at any moment. Any provocation. Any spark. A spark that has the potential of burning everything down.


    You are told that this flame will bring freedom to the people of Ukraine. But the people of Ukraine are free. They remember their past, and are building their own future. They are building it, not destroying it, as you are told everyday on TV. Ukraine in your news and Ukraine in reality are two completely different countries. The most important difference is that ours is real.


    You are being told that we are nazis. But how can a nation be called nazist after sacrificing more than 8 million lives to eradicate it. How can I be a nazi, when my grandfather has survived the whole war as part of the Soviet infantry, and has died a colonel in an independent Ukraine. You are told that we hate Russian culture. But how can a culture be hated? Any culture. Neighbours are always enriching each other culturally. Yet, that does not make them one entity, and does not separate people into “us” and “them”. We are different, but that is not a reason to be enemies. We want to build our own history. Peacefully, calmly, and truthfully.


    You are told that I am ordering to attack the Donbass. To shoot. To bomb without questions. Although there are questions: To shoot at whom? To bomb what?


    Donetsk? To which I have been dozens of times. I have seen their faces and eyes.


    Artema street? On which I have been on many walks with my friends in the past.


    Donbass arena? Where I have been rooting with the locals for our boys during the Euros.


    Shcherbakova Park? In which we were drinking together after our team has lost


    Lugansk? The home of my best friend’s mom. The place where my best friend’s father is buried.


    Note that I am now speaking in Russian, yet no one in Russia understands what these names, streets, and events mean. This is all foreign to you. Unknown. This is our land. This is our history. What are you going to fight for? And against whom?


    Many of you have visited Ukraine in the past. Many of you have relatives here. Some of you studied in our universities. Befriended Ukrainian people. You’re familiar with our character, with our people, our principles. You know what we cherish the most. Look inside you, listen to the voice of reason, of common sense. Hear our voices. The people of Ukraine want peace. Ukrainian authorities want peace. We want it, and we make it. We do everything in our powers. We are not alone. It’s true, Ukraine is supported by many countries. Why? Because we are not talking about peace at any cost. We are talking about peace, and about principles, justice. About everyone’s right to define their own future, of safety, and everyone’s right to live without threat. All this is important to us. All this is important for peace. I know for sure that this is also important for you. We know for sure that we don’t want war. Neither cold, hot, or hybrid.


    But, if we are threatened; If someone is trying to take away our country, our freedom, our lives. The lives of our children. We are going to defend ourselves. Not attack. Defend. By attacking us, you are going to see our faces. Not backs. Our faces.


    War is a big distress, and it has a big price - in all meanings of this word. People lose their money, reputation, quality of life, freedom, and most importantly, people lose their loved ones. Lose themselves. A lot of things are always lacking in war. But what is in abundance is pain, dirt, blood, and death. Thousands. Tens of thousands of deaths. You are told that Ukraine is a threat to Russia. This was not true before, not now, and won’t be in the future. You are demanding security assurances from NATO. We are also demanding assurances of our security. The security of Ukraine from you. From Russia. And from other signatories of the Budapest memorandum. Today, we are not part of random security alliances. The security of Ukraine is tied to the security of our neighbours. That is why we are now talking about the security of all Europe. But our main goal is peace in Ukraine, and the safety of our citizens. Of Ukranians. We are determined to let everyone know about this, including you.


    War is going to deprive everyone of any assurances. No one will have assurances of security.


    Who is going to suffer from this the most? The people.


    Who does not want this more than anyone? The people.


    Who can prevent all this from happening? The people.


    If these people are among you. I am sure they are. Public figures, journalists, musicians, actors, athletes, scientists, doctors, bloggers, stand-up comics, tiktokers, and others. Ordinary people. Ordinary, simple people. Men, women, old, young, fathers, and most importantly - mothers. Just as much as the people in Ukraine, no matter how much they try to convince you of the opposite.


    I know that my announcement will not be aired on Russian television. But the citizens of Russia have to see it. They need to know the truth. And the truth is, that this needs to stop, before it’s too late. And if the authorities of Russia don’t want to talk to us, for the sake of peace, maybe they will talk to you.


    Do the people of Russia want war? I would’ve very much liked to be able to answer this, but the answer depends only on you - citizens of the Russian Federation."
    This made me a little weepy. My schizophrenia manifests itself as dead soldiers talking to me and telling/showing me their stories like a movie most of the time. They're visions and some make me cry. They're soldiers from all over the world.

    I really hope there's no war.

    Thanks for sharing this.
    The mind is restless and difficult to restrain, but it is subdued by practice

    -Krishna

  2. #122

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    Quote Originally Posted by xerx View Post
    Is Ukrainian neutrality really such a bad compromise? Why does it have to either join NATO or become Russian?
    Russians already view Ukraine as a part of Russia. As long as a cultural precedent exists for conflict, conflict will exist; and it's a strong cultural precedent. In Russia, history is still felt about how Ukraine helped defeat the Nazis...

  3. #123
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    Lots of real-time footage is uploaded to Twitter and minor websites by obscure accounts. For anyone interested in obscure war footage, Pakistan Defence Forum threads have a goldmine of links. The users are also sometimes kind enough to translate it into English (the forum has an international user base).

    A word of warning: Forums like this have their share of militant ultra-nationalists, so don't spend too long if you have faith in world peace and don't want to lose it.


    EDIT: do keep in mind that a lot of such "gonzo journalism" is unsubstantiated.
    Last edited by xerx; 02-24-2022 at 04:00 AM.

  4. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    Russian disinformation campaign: https://jabberwocking.com/the-view-f...is-a-grim-one/


    Also: https://www.politico.com/video/2022/...ion-war-476831

    I didn't know that Tucker was so popular in the Russian media, but I guess the Authoritarian message plays well with certain people.

    Fox News must be destroyed.
    Damn, you're on a roll Adam, but as you already know I think you don't go far enough. Fox News Delenda Est? Certainly. Entirety of the MSM and the Cabal that controls them all regardless of their supposed political alignments? That's the real shit. If you're not willing to kill Fox News if it costs you CNN and all the other "news" networks you're not really committed. Level the entire field. Start it all over from scratch. Then there may be a true sign of hope.

    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    I am entirely more concerned about what happens in the States than what happens in Russia, but there seem to be a lot of Very Serious People who think we should intervene over there.

    I just don’t see any profit in such an intervention. Better to just stop sending them stuff we make, and let them enjoy life in the freezing mud.
    I also agree. I actually don't think we need to fuck Russia over for any reason but if we must than the non-military route is the answer. They can get practically anything they currently get from us from China but, well, anyone who pays any attention to China knows what "Tofu-Dreg" means and yeah, China gives you the Tofu-Dreg version of X. Say what you will about the West, at least we still have some semblance of a standard remaining. Said standard of "bricks" for instance are hard to break apart with your bare hands if you ain't a bodybuilder or something. China? Yeah, you get totally awesome better than Pig Dog Capitalist American bricks!

    Bricks you can easily break apart with unprotected bare hands along with "steel" rebar reinforcement a terminal cancer patient can bend and break with but moderate effort. West Taiwan is a paper tiger that is just as much an enemy of ours as are our own elite. If only more people on "my" side would understand that and act accordingly things might get better faster.

    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    Why is half the world trying to get into the US and half of Russia is trying to leave Russia?

    Vote With Your Feet!
    Also the greatest counter-argument to woke fuckers in regards to Western Civilization. If the West and it's civilization is so horrible a place for anyone who is not straight, white, Christian, and male than why the ever living fuck is literally everyone who is none of those things trying so desperately to immigrate to such places? Methinks the wokies aren't exactly synchronized with reality. Well, they are in a sense, but not a reality intended to maximize freedom and minimize suffering. Yes I'm about to get theological again if you ask for specifics but hey, food for thought.

    Also, red state resident here. I'm seeing a lot of New York and California License Plates recently. I wouldn't mind this fact were it not for what the other data suggests. They vote to convert the places they fled into carbon copies of them with all that implies. I'd welcome refugees from commie hellholes with open arms... if only they didn't do all they could to convert my locality into yet another commie hellhole. I respect bees, ladybugs, mantises, etc. Locusts, however...

  5. #125
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    Air raid sirens in Lviv and Kyiv. https://liveuamap.com/

    It's happening.

    God save them

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    Quote Originally Posted by Baqer View Post
    Air raid sirens in Lviv and Kyiv. https://liveuamap.com/

    It's happening.

    God save them
    Well there has always been one fantasy of mine and all who shared my "libertarian" ideology. Imagine a time where everyone declared a war... and nobody showed up.

    Bombs and explosions are easy, boots on the ground are not. A few dudes with resources can make any number of explosions happen, yet to take and hold territory against the will of the local populace requires warm bodies willing and able to shoot guns at innocent civilians.

    I dream of the day that military's all the world over face that most pertinent of problems they've never had to face before. What do ya do if over half the grunts tell ya to go fuck yourself MP's included? Not enough bullets and cells to force their compliance so what then?

    I think we're about to find out and I pray it's glorious. Would love to see the PTB get hoisted by their own petards as it were .

  7. #127
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    Gold is near $2k/oz and the stock market is down almost 15%. I'm going to wait a day or two for it to go lower, then I'll buy stocks and sell gold.

  8. #128
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    What the Ukraine needs is 200,000 of these guys:



    These guys are expensive, but:




    Jay Bazzinotti
    , Try:https://www.amazon.com/s?k=jay+bazzi...ref=nb_sb_noss
    Updated Apr 26, 2017

    During the Iraq War started by George W. Bush the average cost for killing an insurgent was about 135 million dollars per insurgent.
    Operation Desert Storm in 1991 cost an average of about 800,000 dollars per casualty.

    The Vietnam War cost the US about 1 million dollar per casualty in 2017 dollars.

    The cost of an average enemy casualty in World War 2 to the US (German and Japanese) was about 20 million dollars per casualty in 2017 dollars.
    Last edited by Adam Strange; 02-24-2022 at 05:30 AM.

  9. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baqer View Post
    Air raid sirens in Lviv and Kyiv. https://liveuamap.com/

    It's happening.

    God save them
    Putin warning other countries to not interfere with his invasion:

    “Now for a few words to anyone thinking of intervening from the outside - if you create a threat to our country, you will face consequences greater than any you have faced in history”

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    Quote Originally Posted by Poptart View Post
    Putin warning other countries to not interfere with his invasion:

    “Now for a few words to anyone thinking of intervening from the outside - if you create a threat to our country, you will face consequences greater than any you have faced in history”
    This is exactly why Authoritarian rulers are a menace to the human race. They will happily blow up the world to get what they want.

  11. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by chriscorey View Post
    This made me a little weepy. My schizophrenia manifests itself as dead soldiers talking to me and telling/showing me their stories like a movie most of the time. They're visions and some make me cry. They're soldiers from all over the world.

    I really hope there's no war.

    Thanks for sharing this.
    I attended a workshop sunday and the speaker mentioned she lives next to a river where many dead slaves had their bodies dumped. During the BLM protests, she said many whose souls had not crossed over appeared to her because the events had agitated them and were seeking peace. Sounds similar to what you are experiencing. My wife used to deal with the same thing with deceased entities appearing seeking her help. Just food for thought.

  12. #132
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    As of this writing, I don't think the full scope of the Russian attack is known. All I've read about is missile fire. I don't know whether there has been casualties as a result (although the destruction of vital infrastructure is almost, if not equally, as bad). I haven't seen any news about a ground invasion.

    But even if the entire war only involves sporadic missile fire as a show of intimidation, Russia does need to be held very, very accountable.
    Last edited by xerx; 02-24-2022 at 06:21 AM.

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    I still think that allowing NATO to cozy up to Ukraine was a mistake. It should have been kept neutral, but with a strong guarantee of independence from the Western powers. Russia almost certainly should have been more integrated into the European economy, not driven into the arms of China.

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    German news livestream:


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    Quote Originally Posted by xerx View Post
    I still think that allowing NATO to cozy up to Ukraine was a mistake. It should have been kept neutral, but with a strong guarantee of independence from the Western powers. Russia almost certainly should have been more integrated into the European economy, not driven into the arms of China.
    I think NATO’s mistake was in their wishy-washiness. Following Putin’s invasion of Georgia back in 2008, NATO made a half-hearted promise that Ukraine would join “someday” without issuing Ukraine any invitation or real protection. NATO was considering allowing Ukraine in back then, but there was concern over how Putin would react, and so NATO took a middle ground—which might not have been the best path looking back now. Maybe Russia would not be invading Ukraine now if NATO had never made that promise. Maybe NATO could have let Ukraine in back in 2008 without Russia attacking.

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    Told @FreelancePoliceman yesterday that invasion was very likely, and this very same night the invasion has begun. Sometimes its amazing how right and accurate I am in my predictions lol.
    Last edited by RBRS; 02-24-2022 at 07:36 AM.

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    All of Ukraine is getting bombed by Russia and Belarus. I would say this is the start of a new cold war, at least it would be if the U.S. wasn't led by spineless cowards, more focused on spreading gay shit than keeping nations free

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    Quote Originally Posted by ContractedCriminalboy View Post
    All of Ukraine is getting bombed by Russia and Belarus. I would say this is the start of a new cold war, at least it would be if the U.S. wasn't led by spineless cowards, more focused on spreading gay shit than keeping nations free
    Spreading gay shit = US cultural colonialism and homogeneization of cultures (Although I would like to ask americans if that is the original US culture...)
    A second cold war as you say, I agree.
    Last edited by RBRS; 02-24-2022 at 07:47 AM.

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    I doubt the war will remain "cold".


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    I'm not sure exactly where the situation will go.

    But I do think this conflict will draw in NATO at some point. I would love to be wrong about this. But Putin has shown that he'll stop at nothing when it comes to using violence, if he deems it necessary. And he does deem it necessary, as war usually works out pretty well for him, whereas peace talks, negociations, and diplomacy has always ended in him being on the losing end of things, usually because NATO countries end up imposing economic sanctions on him.

    Putin knows that any peace talks at this point will only cause him to lose more influence and beat further into retreat, whereas if he goes to war, he will be able to gain influence over Eastern European countries which would level up his power. His invading Ukraine is win-win, because if NATO does nothing, he extends his influence, including over the rest of Europe. And if NATO countries intervene militarily, that's also a win because if US, French, British, Canadian, etc soldiers lose thier loves, it will escalate into a conflict with NATO. This is much riskier for Putin than the first option, because the US outdoes Russia militarily and there is no telling who may use what. But Russia has a very strong cyber warfare capacity and won't necessarily lose everything even if they lose the war, disinformation may turn parts of Europeans against their own leaders and this will allow Putin to extend his influence in Europe through funding pro-Russian candidates in many European countries. I do think that while NATO not intervening is clearly better for Putin, he is willing to take the risk of either scenario happening at this point simply because he has nothing to lose.
    Last edited by WVBRY; 02-24-2022 at 08:30 AM.


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    Quote Originally Posted by RBRS View Post
    Spreading gay shit = US cultural colonialism and homogeneization of cultures (Although I would like to ask americans if that is the original US culture...)
    A second cold war as you say, I agree.
    Marxism and all its variants originate in Europe. Just fifteen years ago, Americans would be constantly criticized by Europeans for their "backwards" and "puritanical" views on sexuality. As the song goes, we didn't start the fire. Don't forget it was Russia spreading Marxist bullshit world wide while we were fighting against it. All this gay shit is relatively recent in its national acceptance.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ContractedCriminalboy View Post
    All this gay shit is relatively recent in its national acceptance.
    ikr. To think I could not get legally married to my wife ten years ago.
    Know who isn't pandering to gay shit? Russia. I'd put Marxist China on the list too since they are trying to make men being effeminate unacceptable.

    The U.S. doesn't have business going around "freeing" other nations if it can't get its own basic human rights in order, especially a nation we are not contractually obligated to help with boots on the ground.

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    They just need to push back Russia in Ukraine and then kill Putin with a spy or turncoat or something. The setup of all this seems eerily close to WWII and I'm worried this may be the defining conflict of our century. If NATO gets involved and China attacks Taiwan..

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    Quote Originally Posted by aixelsyd View Post
    ikr. To think I could not get legally married to my wife ten years ago.
    Know who isn't pandering to gay shit? Russia. I'd put Marxist China on the list too since they are trying to make men being effeminate unacceptable.

    The U.S. doesn't have business going around "freeing" other nations if it can't get its own basic human rights in order, especially a nation we are not contractually obligated to help with boots on the ground.
    Yeah, your legally approved play pretend marriage with your play pretend gender issues. The U.S. was much better off with "don't ask, don't tell" stance on gay shit. Russia isn't pandering, but neither is Ukraine, Poland, Hungary, Japan, South Korea, etc. What's your point?

    The original human rights proclamation, which supported the nuclear family unit and had nothing to do with globohomo, absolutely. Leftist idea of "human right", which is literally each and every single policy point of the left, just announced as a "human right" in order to give it legitimacy and silence opposition to it, absolutely not. The current weakness of the U.S. is exactly why people are dying in Ukraine right now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ouronis View Post
    They just need to push back Russia in Ukraine and then kill Putin with a spy or turncoat or something. The setup of all this seems eerily close to WWII and I'm worried this may be the defining conflict of our century. If NATO gets involved and China attacks Taiwan..
    China attacking Taiwan would almost certainly either trigger WWIII or the official collapse of the U.S. as a world power. If China invades within this current administration, the latter will be the result.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ContractedCriminalboy View Post
    China attacking Taiwan would almost certainly either trigger WWIII or the official collapse of the U.S. as a world power. If China invades within this current administration, the latter will be the result.
    Well, it should end the european world war coast to coast trifecta but maybe next century spain and india will be the ones to start the war since asia still has a spare power that hasn't started a world war yet.

    I think even if China gets involved in the war, NATO will wreck their shit, but it'll be hairy and drawn out.

    Another funny thing is that the conversation around appeasement has already started. That is something we can't tolerate.

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  28. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by ouronis View Post
    Well, it should end the european world war coast to coast trifecta but maybe next century spain and india will be the ones to start the war since asia still has a spare power that hasn't started a world war yet.

    I think even if China gets involved in the war, NATO will wreck their shit, but it'll be hairy and drawn out.

    Another funny thing is that the conversation around appeasement has already started. That is something we can't tolerate.
    China grows most of its food in a very small area.

    The Apaches single-handedly stopped the Spanish invasion of North America for a hundred years, but the Apaches lived off the buffalo and the American immigrants spreading west killed all the buffalo. Just shot mountains of them. In less than a generation, no Apache.

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    Hello,

    I was wrong.

    ...Well, I'm glad to be living far from any likely target of nuclear bombing.

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    Bound upon me, rush upon me, I will overcome you by enduring your onset: whatever strikes against that which is firm and unconquerable merely injures itself by its own violence. Wherefore, seek some soft and yielding object to pierce with your darts.

    -Seneca

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    Poptart's Avatar
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    Dumb question, but what’s going to happen to Zelensky? I have a feeling he won’t flee Ukraine.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FreelancePoliceman View Post
    Hello,

    I was wrong.

    ...Well, I'm glad to be living far from any likely target of nuclear bombing.
    Unless you are 100 miles from all towns bigger than 10,000 people, AND from any military base or industrial site or nuclear reactor, you aren't.

    Wrong about what? Putin not invading because he's such a nice guy and Authoritarians can be reasoned with?

    Who cares if you were wrong. The most important thing to determine is why you concluded what you did, because it means that either your facts or your model of the process are incorrect.

  33. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by Poptart View Post
    Dumb question, but what’s going to happen to Zelensky? I have a feeling he won’t flee Ukraine.

    Zelinsky looks SLE to me. He'll stay and fight. Putin will put him on display in a cage, because that's what LSIs do. Then, off to the Gulag and eventual death by poisoning.
    Last edited by Adam Strange; 02-24-2022 at 05:45 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    China grows most of its food in a very small area.

    The Apaches single-handedly stopped the Spanish invasion of North America for a hundred years, but the Apaches lived off the buffalo and the American immigrants spreading west killed all the buffalo. Just shot mountains of them. In less than a generation, no Apache.
    So you're saying we should nuke their farmland?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ouronis View Post
    So you're saying we should nuke their farmland?

    No, but we could, if push came to shove.

    Chinese leaders are terrified of running out of food.

    Imagine if the US government told all the US citizens that they could have one child and no more, and if they do have more, the kid will be forcibly aborted by local government officials.

    Imagine that.

    Mao put that rule in place in China and enforced it because he saw that China's population would soon outgrow the food that China can produce, and he certainly was not going to import food from the Capitalists.

    That's what food security means to the Chinese government.

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    LϺαο Not A Communist Shill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    No, but we could, if push came to shove.

    Chinese leaders are terrified of running out of food.

    Imagine if the US government told all the US citizens that they could have one child and no more, and if they do have more, the kid will be forcibly aborted by local government officials.

    Imagine that.

    Mao put that rule in place in China and enforced it because he saw that China's population would soon outgrow the food that China can produce, and he certainly was not going to import food from the Capitalists.

    That's what food security means to the Chinese government.
    Got any links on that spot of farmland? In times of war, China would probably be pretty good at mobilizing a workforce to spread the food production out.

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    Trump news – live: Ex-president’s own national security adviser turns on him over Putin ‘genius’ comment

    As Vladimir Putin attacks Ukraine with ground forces and airstrikes, a State Department spokesperson said he had “no words” in response to praise for the Russian autocrat from Donald Trump.

    Twice in two days, the former president has hailed Mr Putin as “smart” and blamed Joe Biden for what is happening.

    “He [Mr Putin] was going to be satisfied with a piece and now he sees the weakness and the incompetence and the stupidity of this administration,” Mr Trump said while speaking with Fox News presenter Laura Ingraham. “As an American I am angry about it and I am saddened by it. And it all happened because of a rigged election.”

    In another video clip from Wednesday night that was circulated on social media, Mr Trump can be heard saying: “Trump said Putin is smart. He’s taken over a country for $2 worth of sanctions. I’d say that’s pretty smart.”

    Earlier on Tuesday, Mr Trump hailed Mr Putin as “savvy” and called his move on Ukraine “genius”.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ouronis View Post
    Got any links on that spot of farmland? In times of war, China would probably be pretty good at mobilizing a workforce to spread the food production out.
    @ouronis, Here's an overview: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nRUc4gTO-PE

    Here's a map: https://www.researchgate.net/figure/...fig4_259538116

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