Also can swing the other way
Self-destructively sticks their neck out for people they don't know
Unreasonably generous with no strings attached
Willing to give you the shirt off their back if you manage to get close
That friend that might actually "disappear" a body for you at 3am
Originally Posted by inaLim
The underlined describe or described me in the past a LOT, lol
Make it generic Ti / Se stuff
These are actually the things I personally would have serious issues with, in the sense of that they would make me keep my distance. I'm not really sure how duality is supposed to cover for this.
If someone makes the Fi-POLR feel genuinely comfortable and emotionally safe then they will not do these things: they will have a great amount of respect and admiration for that person, even if they do not necessarily express the depth of that feeling out loud. Besides, I think the first two of those need to be asterisked with *regardless of this the Ti-POLR will be incredibly loyal and appreciative of your interest in them as a person and will do anything they can to help you.
Oh, and the duality works because the Te-POLR goes, "oh, this is nice, this person takes the time to try and understand my opinion and is patient when explaining things to me and makes sure that I understand."
There are inevitable sacrifices in any relationship, even if it is with a dual. There are things about Te-POLR that annoy SLEs and ILEs too, but they are the type [according to the theory] that understands how to deal with it appropriately and in a way that protects their dual.
I think attachment and cutting it off like a diseased limb if it gets bad is a serious thing and point of contention in any case, was the main point of what @inaLim is trying to get at. We have a penchant for doing that when we feel relations get bad because they are difficult for us to manage and we often wait and let it get to that point. I don’t think inaLim was trying to imply we wouldn’t take it, or serious relationships, seriously. What it means and I think other Fi polrs can relate to this though: our investment is our own and our own business, and when other people try to inflate the importance of their role in a relationship or the relationship itself to us in an unaccounted for way, that is a very serious turn-off. It immediately registers as toxic.
I do think that other Fi polr people have made comments or done things that were harsh or unempathetic before though, compared to other types IME, beyond just trolling. But they usually aren’t that bad because they are like unfounded “glitches” in calculation. When I point out these instances to other Fi polr people, either they will apologize, or they’ll go in denial for a while then wordlessly try to make up for it later. I think this impression has to do with how Fe HA types seem generally somewhat socially aware enough to usually understand how people might be feeling, but not always or enough, so that when we make mistakes here, they stand out more to ourselves (and often to others who know us well), and this can be extra painful. I do think that Fe HA types tend to care about empathy though (at least when we deem it justified) so maybe this stereotype is undeserved, unless of course the Fi polr person is toxic or insane, like any other type though. But then again, many people never improve themselves without such criticisms (such as via stereotypes), so I think we should just let it be.
I also think there are a very small minority of Fi polr people out there that make up a portion of toxic, manipulative sociopaths, who are also very clever about it in some tropey “Don Juan” way. But then again there are plenty of other types that can also be sociopathic (any type really) in their own different ways. Look at Hit1er (beta NF), school shooter SLIs and LSI, narcissistic and manipulative LSEs, businesslord LIEs who are immoral, even Mother Teresa who seemed SEI or delta NF who was revealed to be scandalous, and alpha SFs who are famous for being manipulatively “caring”, the list goes on.
It’s simply easier for people’s minds to latch onto things and ideas when they’re clearly definable tropes. Such is how the concept of “Fi polr empathy-lacking sociopaths” was born.
Same goes for the PoLRs of all the other types, of course.
This thread keeps hitting a lot of stuff for me in various ways for some reason. It still seems like to me, a lot of the Fi PoLR stuff is "trust issues", lol.
Anyway yeah. @mightylizard that's exactly how my Ti works, lol. Everything you said in your post there. Scarily accurate
(Btw I addressed post #536 to you if you don't mind looking at it)
And this. Totally the same. For the underlined, I cut off quite some people due to that bullshit. That there is perfectly worded. Exactly how I see it myself. Anyone who tries to do that shit can go fuck themselves. And if you want to know, mostly these people seem IEIs, LOL.
(So yeah if this is a problem for SLE Fi PoLR then yeah how does duality work?)
For the italicised part, yah, that too is true. I'm trying to fix the part about waiting and letting it get to that point. I want to be more in control of it than that. "Cutting it off like a diseased limb" is the perfect expression too for it
This about "forgot you existed
made no effort to maintain contact
moved on
replaced you",
I'm not typing as Fi PoLR (I mean some people have wanted to put this typing on mebut just take my input as generic Beta ST stuff, ok?), but since some of this stuff fits me I'll give you my input here. The first two here are just because of not being very attached yet. It just takes a lot of time to get attached (true for both Beta STs). I don't think SLEs do that when they really are attached and committed in a relationship. So put that stuff in this context.
For the next two, I find it fundamentally immoral and distasteful to just "move on and replace the person". I mean I once tried to look at things like that and that's when it just felt like it's taking the easy way out and like it's cheating or something. Like you just use the person while that's comfy and useful to you and once you don't get anything out of it anymore you just move on and find a new victim. It really felt like too easy lol, like an easy smooth life without any "suffering", but somehow easy in the wrong way & it felt too disgusting too. Too fundamentally against how I am. I don't think anyone thinks like that unless they are an actual psychopath. So no I wouldn't relate it to Fi PoLR either
That was a general response to these "my Fi PoLR friend" stories.
The core of Fi PoLR is lack of focus and energy for making judgements about FELT INNER VALUE (Jung) and INTERPERSONAL RELATIONSHIPS. (Socionics)
It's not "I have this impulse to invade your boundaries, throw napalm, and keep you as a friend."
It's "How can you be so sensitive about ABC when what's actually important is XYZ? Someone else come deal with this."
forgot you existed - The world does not revolve around bullying you. Get out of here with your persecution complex.
made no effort to maintain contact - I'm not investing time and energy keeping a relationship afloat with someone I can't even be myself around.
moved on - If you are that sensitive that I have to tip-toe around you 24/7, yes I'd cut my losses and move on.
replaced you - It is obvious we are not the same. We don't fit. Go find someone else who does. I'll do the same.
Fe sensitizes SLE to the interpersonal field of emotions and value by being emotionally expressive
Ni reorients SLE to inner meaning
Last edited by inaLim; 05-10-2020 at 02:50 PM. Reason: eh. I don't know whats up with this formatting
Some people seem to think it’s ok for themselves to be assholes (because of course they only have the best intentions) but start raging when I start to become an asshole back, probably because I’m better at it or funnier or something. And they don’t realize how lame it seems. I can literally hear some LIE protesting to this in my mind right now, moralizing in vain. Even some ILEs can get pretty butthurt sometimes.
Yes, very typical. People will play up being an asshole and then when you quip back they play victim. ENFps and ESFjs are bad for this as well in my experience, particularly the males.
Great post, I bolded my favorite points. One of my closest friends is an ILE and a Social 9 on the enneagram. She's empathic and VERY aware of the people around her.
We were once comparing notes about empathy and taking on other peoples' feelings which is where her Fi PoLR to my Fi demonstrative became clear. I said something along the lines of, "ah, I hope you don't keep feeling bad about that one situation with ___." She said, "I can feel someone's emotions with them in the moment, but once they're gone and not in my presence those feelings don't live on in me. I detach quickly and won't continue feeling them."
That blew my mind because I can take on people's pain/moods for a long time even if they're not around me, which is something I often wish I could get rid of. I was a little jealous when she told me that, like, "teach me your ways." She just doesn't internalize it at all.
I think this also makes me feel oddly protected by Fi PoLR people. Their ability to not be torn up by these feelings is refreshing and makes me feel safe, like, "oh okay. You're right. I don't have to keep feeling bad, do I?" It's kind of a relief.
Last edited by Aria; 06-01-2020 at 04:56 AM.
The polr needs protection by the demonstrative of the dual. Because the polr is a source for worries and insecurity it needs to be matched by a strong function.
I think the demonstrative is mostly instinctual and works unconsciously.
If I have understood this correctly...
Last edited by Tallmo; 06-01-2020 at 10:39 PM.
The decisive thing is not the reality of the object, but the reality of the subjective factor, i.e. the primordial images, which in their totality represent a psychic mirror-world. It is a mirror, however, with the peculiar capacity of representing the present contents of consciousness not in their known and customary form but in a certain sense sub specie aeternitatis, somewhat as a million-year old consciousness might see them.
(Jung on Si)
Just think about how your feeling bad has no effect on them and thus creates a net loss for everyone, unless you talk to them, actually help them in some way, or throw positive vibe unicorn dust at them I guess.
Btw I think we do internalize it, but we just don’t realize it or admit it, because it’s so low in our consciousness. It sits as tiny crumbs in the back of our consciousness where it can quietly impact our mood and wellbeing. Of course with much less conscious significance compared to IEIs like you.
Last edited by sbbds; 06-02-2020 at 06:41 AM.
I hate MBTI stereotypes and I want to pour gasoline on them and watch them die in flames as they look up to me with teary eyes crazed flailing and pleading, I want to pee into them and watch them shut for the final time.
Pee into me.
Introverted PoLR: channel goes in but not out. Simply as that. Fi as I see is about sympathetic response in where it operates in this case it is feeling. Unfeeling personal predisposition. Hence it also steps over communal values. Sympathetic position assumes similarity without objectivity. In the end it is about reaching for objective feeling. Fi is like: I want to get rich -> others want it too or I want to get married-> others want it too etc. When this dominates you can pretty much kiss ass because the nuances. Whereas I just don't hold those believes and decide it logically case by case.
In a way I do not deal with wants and it reflects back.
Maybe the best example comes when people try to please me and hit a wall everytime.
Last edited by The Reality Denialist; 06-02-2020 at 09:29 AM.
MOTTO: NEVER TRUST IN REALITY
Winning is for losers
Sincerely yours,
idiosyncratic type
Life is a joke but do you have a life?
Joinif you dare https://matrix.to/#/#The16Types:matrix.org
I wish it were this easy because it's good advice. Yes. It would probably help to have an SLE in my daily in-person life, telling me this regularly. We could have a symbolic unicorn-dust blowing ceremony whenever the need arises.
You're right. I think my friend internalizes it into her body a lot (gets sick after a time, has physical symptoms, desires Si to come care for her) and experiences burn-out. A lot of her non-reactions and thinking she's fine when she's not probably comes down to her being a 9. Other Fi PoLR types are certainly more volatile than she is, but she's SUPER zen (on the outside).Btw I think we do internalize it, but we just don’t realize it or admit it, because it’s so low in our consciousness. It sits as tiny crumbs in the back of our consciousness where it can quietly impact our mood and wellbeing. Of course with much less conscious significance compared to IEIs like you.
My Fi PolR in a nutshell:
I understand people very well imo. I can read them face to face and even in text interaction fairly well and know exactly where we stand in terms of relations even from some of the very first interactions. Generally its fairly evident to me how and what buttons I need to push in other people to get certain responses out of them. It just depends entirely on what I want in the given situation or what my mood and orientation towards these ppl is. Imo its less about being unintentionally rude, or glitching the interaction by some deficiency on my end such as low empathy or sympathy, autism and more about intentionally pushing their buttons & making them react the way I want them to.
If I want I can behave in ways which make people like me. I can be very charming, goofy or whatever I think you'd enjoy. Is it genuine? It Depends. Do I have empathy and sympathy for people? I do. My response however depends on a lot of other factors. I won't just simply respond with thoughtless superficial kindness. I tend to feel guilt & shame a lot, which regulates my response very often.
Imo a lot of how I act on the forums is misconstrued imo as it comes from firmly held, well researched and gradually through experience adopted ideas and values.. which conflict and contradict those held by the majority. I seem to just by default have a kind of firebrand personality or a tendency towards incendiary interaction, which I find.. fun... however a lot of these ideals if you wish to call them that are firmly entrenched and non negotiable.
As a consequence I tend to be perceived as combative, rude / insensitive, trolly and such by the majority.. but its simply my way of mocking the current zeitgeist and the people who are the products of it. When I express sincere values, opinions or how I relate it seems to either be taken as insensitive Fi PolR or not seriously ("not sure if joking") kind of way, when in fact I'm dead serious :>.
Last edited by SGF; 08-20-2020 at 05:57 AM.
@shotgunfingers you’re basically like an extroverted ILI IMO. I do not think you’re the best representation of Fi polr like how you think.
I think a better point of evidence of your Fi polr would be when you freak out after being morally reprimanded, for e.g. what happened when I called you racist and sociopathic lol.
in that situation I was pushing the boundary of what is normally allowed to be discussed (I usually do this) and I was very aware of the possibility of that happening. In that situation anticipatory anxiety was present, but as it happened I experienced shame, fear and knew that I reached the limit of how far I could push the discussion.
Consequent negative reaction is mainly due to me not perceiving myself as either of those things as I have no animosity towards ppl based on such criteria and I do feel shame and guilt, given my overly cautious and deliberate nature as a type 6 based in fear and anxiety its infuriating when someone calls me "sociopath" or similar... HOWEVER I know that its pointless to even try and defend oneself on the internet or otherwise against accusations such as those.. so I calmed down and didn't push it any further.
<_< I am quite emotionally reactive fml. -.- the cautious non risk taking deliberate character I have often leads to inaction.. I kind of envy you and Northstar, you seem to be more prone to risk, don;t seem to overthink things till analysis-paralisis sets in. I wish I could be more type 8-ish in this regard tbh.
e_e but now my paranoid 6 side is questioning if you guys are just screwing with me and intentionally messing up my attempts at typing or its just because I haven't been very clear about whats going on on my end.
Last edited by SGF; 08-20-2020 at 08:19 AM.
Based on Filatova's description of ILE Fi, I have to agree with the following:
Fi – Vulnerable function. The ILE feels nervously in the sphere of human relations. He usually interprets his relations badly, therefore he allows relations to develop with care, he waits until he learns something for sure rather than assuming. Thus he behaves with restraint in front of people he doesn’t know. <== imo this is true.
He cannot always discern the state of another person; he may therefore offend others in the manner by which he expresses what he’s discovered for he doesn’t seem to take into account other’s feelings in regards to the situation. But this is never the consequence of evil intent, envy or arrogance. ILE simply believes that he is speaking about something objectively, and that the truth will not offend anyone. <== this isn't. I'm always fully aware of these things, there is clear intent there if I'm not being diplomatic. Accidentally hurting someone rarely happens, I'd have to be careless and usually I'm not. I do however have imo at least better moral breaks and conscience than most ppl I know, even if I push boundaries a lot.
ILE places vast value on the decency of a person. The criterion of decency, as a rule, is overstated. If someone seeks his company he assumes that mutual respect exists. He strongly suffers offense and injustice. He will not reconcile with others, unless the offender apologizes before him. <== this is true imo.
ILE frequently has a wide circle of friends. He loves to consider different problems with them. They, alongside reading, radio and television, provide him with an excellent source of information. <== I like bouncing ideas off ppl and discussing things even if those things are taboo subjects, but I don't have a wide circle of friends. Friends I count on 1 hand, knowing someone doesn't make them a friend.
I think that this means that the emotional output of ILE is not always in the "accepted range" for a situation. It's not really that bad honestly, it's just a bit strange sometimesExample, I had a discussion with ILE-H(Ne subtype) and EII and EII was talking about how she broke up with her boyfriend because [blabla].
EII: (sobs) it was really hard...I was telling lkdhf about it yesterday
ILE: How COME I'm always the last to know?!
Me: Dude, she's crying....
There is like a disconnect where ILE doesn't notice when someone is in emotional distress right away, because he's on the "objectivity plane". Note also that he expected EII to tell him about her relationship problems disregarding that she probably felt closer to me.
XLE-Tis are more prone to actually pretend that relationships don't exist and don't need any work. Only to have these unpredictable outbursts of sympathy or hate. They are very good at pretending that they don't really care with whom they hang out, but unconsciously they definitely have preferences. Makes me think of Kikuchiyo(SLE) in the movie Seven Samurai, who seems not to care about helping people. But when his Samurai companions want to abandon the villagers to bandits(because they kill and rob lone samuraïs and lied about it), he's like:
And everyone is like "wtf, you actually have more values than us"Kikuchiyo: What do you think of farmers? You think they're saints? Hah! They're foxy beasts! They say, "We've got no rice, we've no wheat. We've got nothing!" But they have! They have everything! Dig under the floors! Or search the barns! You'll find plenty! Beans, salt, rice, sake! Look in the valleys, they've got hidden warehouses! They pose as saints but are full of lies! If they smell a battle, they hunt the defeated! They're nothing but stingy, greedy, blubbering, foxy, and mean! God damn it all! But then . . . who made them such beasts? You did! You samurai did it! You burn their villages! Destroy their farms! Steal their food! Force them to labour! Take their women! And kill them if they resist! So what should farmers do? Damn it...
[He sinks to his knees, sobbing] Damn it... God damn it...
Kambei Shimada : [Quietly, after a long pause] You were the son of a farmer, weren't you?
I think that this means that the emotional output of ILE is not always in the "accepted range" for a situation. It's not really that bad honestly, it's just a bit strange sometimes
EII: (sobs) it was really hard...I was telling lkdhf about it yesterday
ILE: How COME I'm always the last to know?!
Me: Dude, she's crying....
There is like a disconnect where ILE doesn't notice when someone is in emotional distress right away, because he's on the "objectivity plane". Note also that he expected EII to tell him about her relationship problems disregarding that she probably felt closer to me.
XLE-Tis are more prone to actually pretend that relationships don't exist and don't need any work. Only to have these unpredictable outbursts of sympathy or hate. They are very good at pretending that they don't really care with whom they hang out, but unconsciously they definitely have preferences. Makes me think of Kikuchiyo(SLE) in the movie Seven Samurai, who seems not to care about helping people. But when his Samurai companions want to abandon the villagers to bandits(because they kill and rob lone samuraïs and lied about it), he's like:
And everyone is like "wtf, you actually have more values than us"
Last edited by SGF; 08-20-2020 at 12:14 PM.
What I usually see Fi PoLR being is doing their thing(TM) without really thinking how people see you as being in relation to them.
It is like "because my feefees and others have these feefees [or relational needs] therefore the feefees [or relational needs] matches this and in order to contnue with good feefeess there is need for this".
That would be Fi IMO but...
It is like "because just added one to one and got 2 therefore similar stepwise operation is 2+1=3 which is by going back 1+1+1=3 and in general this sort of operation seems to be 1+n". Tat would be Ti IMO.
MOTTO: NEVER TRUST IN REALITY
Winning is for losers
Sincerely yours,
idiosyncratic type
Life is a joke but do you have a life?
Joinif you dare https://matrix.to/#/#The16Types:matrix.org
It was a backhanded compliment to him
Right. So Fi polrs don’t really think about / care about / want to be made to care about this train of thought specifically.
It’s because we prefer to have relations be ad-hoc, if I understand relationships and my own feelings correctly lol. I don’t want people to pander to me to try to make our relationship better than it would be otherwise.
@shotgunfingers
I'm too stupid to understand you. You never make any sense to me tbh.
To me they are more like static attitudes based in the essence of who the other person is and how I think about them.
A relationship can be permanently negative even from the very start.
I think maybe you are taking it too literally. Fi is considered static and yes it’s possible for relationships to be positive or negative from the beginning, but it’s usually a mixed bag. Most people have things about them you like and things about them you don’t like. And as various things get revealed and as people grow and change, the relationship can also change. What it means is that each individual Fi inner “state” can be understood as a flat, static state at any one time, not that the relationship between two people is fixed necessarily.
Fi polr / Fe HA reminds me of these lyrics from One Week by the Barenaked Ladies. This entire song (and entire band really) is very ILE but I can relate too.
It's been one week since you looked at me
Cocked your head to the side and said, "I'm angry"
Five days since you laughed at me saying
"Get that together, come back and see me"
Three days since the living room
I realized it's all my fault but couldn't tell you
Yesterday, you'd forgiven me
But it'll still be two days till I say I'm sorry
...
How can I help it if I think you're funny when you're mad?
Trying hard not to smile though I feel bad
I'm the kind of guy who laughs at a funeral
Can't understand what I mean?
Well, you soon will
I have a tendency to wear my mind on my sleeve
I have a history of taking off my shirt
I tend to have lots of drama going on inside of my head and it is hard to let it out without worries because it can backfire quite easily.
MOTTO: NEVER TRUST IN REALITY
Winning is for losers
Sincerely yours,
idiosyncratic type
Life is a joke but do you have a life?
Joinif you dare https://matrix.to/#/#The16Types:matrix.org
Shit... I'm just being a stereotypical type 6. its probably annoying at this point... and I need to just stop.
First 5 minutes is explanation enough, but everything in this vid is stereotypical of me. I'm just poking holes and being a contrarian at this point:
Last edited by SGF; 08-20-2020 at 04:48 PM.
Fi: vulnerable function of ENTp and demonstrative function of ISFp
For ILE it is difficult to express a personal dislike towards a person and to set psychological distances: he is friendly and well predisposed to everyone equally and doesn't push anyone away. At the same time, the ILE is poorly perceptive of other's attitude towards him/herself. He often behaves unceremoniously, likes looking at and analyzing others, and generally makes little regard for ethical standards in his relations. Knowing this often apologizes. The SEI does not address this weakness verbally, that is, he doesn't try to criticize and teach the ILE. These issues the SEI resolves himself and does so unconsciously. On this function, the SEI creates short psychological distances, which shows as sociability and amiability in contact with people. By this behavior that forges a democratic, friendly, relaxed atmosphere, the SEI eliminates the need for the ILE to be always proper and to comply with etiquette in order to not shock others by his behaviors.
http://www.wikisocion.net/en/index.p...ulenko#SEI-ILEFi: vulnerable function of ESTp and demonstrative function of INFp
SLE poorly sees what relations are developing between people. He fears that his personal relationships will be put on display or used against him. It is difficult for him to openly express his sympathy for another person. He often makes mistakes when he assumes that someone relates to him well. Moving towards his purpose, he risks evoking bad attitudes in others when they notice his quality to not to stop at anything. IEI refrains from openly criticizing this function and treats it with understanding. Lecturing and annoying hectoring over this element can lead to a sharp deterioration of SLE's mood. The IEI unconsciously produces large psychological distances on this element, he as if slips away from his conversation partner, closes himself off behind a meaningless smile. Events that are relayed by his conversation partner do not affect him deeply. It is exactly these kind of elusively polite relations that seem inviting to the SLE, creating for him the stability of the external psychological situation.
MOTTO: NEVER TRUST IN REALITY
Winning is for losers
Sincerely yours,
idiosyncratic type
Life is a joke but do you have a life?
Joinif you dare https://matrix.to/#/#The16Types:matrix.org
e_e lol.. idk man.. I openly told my grandmother she is a sociopathic piece of shit (it was more like screaming at her tbh), smashed her gift on the floor, told her to shove her money up her ass, brought her to tears and would have physically assaulted her if my brother doesn't stand between me and her... stormed off kicked the front door in repeatedly until I bent the hinges and smashed the plates out. I have never spoken to the bitch since, hope she dies and rots in hell for mentally abusing my mother for decades. Its been years. Its not exactly a one off case either, this sometimes happens, usually when enough is enough and I can't take the immoral shit I or other ppl around me have to put up with from someone & simply being assertive or talking with them several times prior hasn't gotten it to sink in that what they are doing is not ok. Like the time called the sales director a fucking idiot and smashed the receiver into the service phone until both broke to pieces..For ILE it is difficult to express a personal dislike towards a person and to set psychological distances: he is friendly and well predisposed to everyone equally and doesn't push anyone away.
.. but yeah, otherwise I'm cute as a button & friendly. Anger issues, at times used to be much worse as a teen, but I used to get lectured by mom when I was a kid, because I'd run my mouth and call my uncle & grandma scumbags with other relatives present at family reunions. e_e I have a rather low tolerance for shitty immoral ppl.. and I can easily get worked up about it.
Last edited by SGF; 08-20-2020 at 07:00 PM.
the your type is flawed. Typical Fi HA to boast with relational attitudes like that.
MOTTO: NEVER TRUST IN REALITY
Winning is for losers
Sincerely yours,
idiosyncratic type
Life is a joke but do you have a life?
Joinif you dare https://matrix.to/#/#The16Types:matrix.org
Take this test and see if you're low in Agreeableness.
https://www.the16types.info/vbulleti...pectrum-Scores
Most of these things don't sound like being related to Fi PoLR. I've confronted people a plenty, objects went a flying and walls have been broken. And yet, I'm supported to be a nice fluffy IEI female who's also tiny in frame.
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