Concrete examples of LSE's (ESTj) Ni PoLR and how an EII (INFj) can help with it?
I can't quite seem to grasp what Ni PoLR looks like from the articles I've read on this site (as well as Sociotype.com), but I want to be a good EII buddy and take care of it for my LSE friends, like how they take care of Se issues for me (without being annoyed by my deficiency in them). Any thoughts?
Maybe it is already happening naturally without me even realizing it. But I'd like to understand this more concretely!
I'm LII and I also have demonstrative Ni. When interacting with LSE and ESE, both Ni PoLR, I think I assist them rather subconsciously and not in an overly direct, demanding manner. I think it's because my demonstrative is more of a strong background function for me, rather than something highly valued.
I can't think of any great examples but I gently remind them about the time, will there be time to do it all? Or the potential consequences of some action they are going to take. They haven't complained yet about my usage of Ni.
LII-Ne with strong EII tendencies, 6w7-9w1-3w4 so/sp/sx, INxP
One of the things I have observed ESXjs do over and over again is that they will buy things and never use them. The conversation usually goes something like this:
ni polr: Look at that! I want it!
me: You will use that maybe once...
ni polr: *starts listing off various situations in which they will use said item*
me: *sarcastically adds to their list of improbable scenarios*
ni polr: *buys 3*
me: ...
My ESE mother is like that. She tends to buy things that she only uses once or twice and then forgets about them, but can't part with it because you never know, she might use it again. Anyway, her house is heavily cluttered, so she could stand to part with most of those things. I seriously doubt she would miss most of these things and if she ever needed it, she could just buy a new one.Originally Posted by Syynth
LII-Ne with strong EII tendencies, 6w7-9w1-3w4 so/sp/sx, INxP
I started to write a long description of a concrete situation, but the short version is this: If you're Delta NF, you don't need to directly help with Ni-polr, you need to just not be entirely focused on Ni yourself, because Ni's fuzzy logic and lack of functional stepwise planning make LSEs freeze up if they're presented with it too directly and too often.
If you are able to see solutions and possibilities when things go wrong, and if you're not sitting around modeling how things are going to go wrong and warning the LSE of impending doom in ways that they cannot understand, accept, and act on, things will be okay. If you are able to help them, via your perspective, to consider the human aspects of things, then you will be supporting them in making better decisions. Etc.
LSI: “I still can’t figure out Pinterest.”
Me: “It’s just, like, idea boards.”
LSI: “I don’t have ideas.”
Maybe they can narrow down the LSE's use of Ne to areas which are relevant in ways that cover the vulnerable area.
From my experience :
Afternoon around 5pm
Her: we will be late
me: no relax
her: no seriously the flight is at 4pm
me: ok plenty of time
her: not really that's why I already booked an early train
me: how early
her: 6.30 am
me: what??
her: well 3h to go, and at least 1h to get to the airport
me: that makes 4 hours ok 5 if we stress out
her: yeah you never know what can happen
me: right that's why we will be there at 12h latest
her: yeah you never know
me: *sigh* ok let's have a long coffee break
her: besides I have already booked our morning taxi
me: *close to fainting* as you wish
her: you should pack, I am done since yesterday
me: sure
How you can help the person, praise them for what they do.
No rush. No fuss.
They will naturally over plan, worry and get stressed out and lose their shit. You just remain calm and quiet and do as they say. LSE will ask for advice on things when they need it. Otherwise they need you to be calm. Don't criticize them, don't provoke arguments.
-
Dual type(as per tcaudilllg)
Enneagram 5 (wings either 4 or 6)?
I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE
Best description of functions:
http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html
Yeah pretty much this. And people think I share a quadra? LOL
My brother's (IEI) original dream was to make/edit films. I would often catch him thinking/fantasizing about his ideas and aspirations. (Ni)
Currently, he is in Korea teaching English. (He has for the past 3 years). But it's not really a prestigious job or anything. For him, it was more of an alternative job he chose for the experience/adventure of living in a different country and exploring something different. (Ni)
But, when I bring this up to my LSE and ESE friends, they often mention how he is wasting his time. (They have high paying jobs at motor companies). They say he should have/do something thats proven to give him a stable job/income. Something reliable. They don't naturally see the deeper meaning/significance of his experience. They don't see the future possibilities that may come out of it. Rather, they're focused on the external (income, job, etc) (Ni-PoLR)
Ni-PoLR doesn't bother with anything that cannot be seen or touched. It HATES uncertainty. It doesn't like fantasies or foreseeing possibilities, but rather sticks to tried and true methods. Because of this, LSE/ESE will come off conservative-y relative to Ni-types.
Last edited by Computer Loser; 12-15-2016 at 02:29 AM.
My INTp friend had this to say about Ni-PoLRs, and Ne-hidden agendas:
"They have the intellectual maturity of a 5-year old sugar-rushed kid trying to connect the dots for the first time. Always going off all over the place without a clear sense of direction or a purpose. Disgusting."
This sounds more Ne ego to me... It definitely doesn't sound like my LSE friends. No matter how immature their Ne is, it's still heavily disciplined by their leading Te. Maybe your friend is thinking of ESEs?
Yeah, that's what I also initially thought, but I just assumed it was derived from the famous Expat quote: "trying to show everyone how creative and original you are, but end up making too much of obvious and trivial ideas." I have observed this with ESEs and their Fe, but I guess our duals, because of their strive for practical duty, confide their Ne for only feasible ideas proven empirically. I guess they both use Ne HA to compensate for Ni PoLR.
Thanks for your responses, everyone! It sounds like the main tangible manifestation of Ni PoLR is extreme discomfort with time, especially uncertainty around future events, when they will happen, and how long they will take. And this results in overplanning/stress. That sounds adorable (and Socionics theory suggests that I would find it endearing, so yay consistency between experience and theory)!
Then I guess the two main ways I am comforting to someone with Ni PoLR are: (1) I don't fight or criticize their overplanning when it happens, and (2) I'm very stable/consistent in my affections (they might change, but only over a very long period of time and with lots of signs/warning along the way--no sudden changes).
Yeeees I think this is a thing. I feel like most PoLRs can be mitigated by instincts/other functions. (But Se PoLR... Sigh. -_-) E.g., a more developed Ne HA leads to a healthy appetite for abstraction. (I love the hourglass metaphor in your signature, btw.)
This actually reminds me of two incidents. One of my LSE friends occasionally expresses to me a lot of anxiety regarding his future professional success. On one such occasion, I told him, "I know this kind of reassurance might be useless since I have no specific evidence to back it up, but I know you will do well." I wonder if that was comforting at all or just useless/annoyingly vague to him.
The other incident is when my LSE friend and I were deciding whether to become romantically involved. We agreed that above all, we would like to be with each other for a long time to come (ideally forever), so if adding romance would possibly lead to a break-up type event where we can't be with each other at all anymore, even platonically, then we shouldn't add romance. I asked him what kind of event would lead to the inability to simply return to being platonic friends, and he said he didn't know, just that he has never broken up with/lost a purely platonic friend and that he has lost romantic partners (entirely, not just the romantic part of their relationship).
I had asked him just to see if there was something I hadn't thought of; I had already thought of one major, somewhat likely type of event. In that moment, I didn't tell him exactly what it was. I only said we should probably just be friends.
We pretty quickly fell into something romantic after that, though, so I eventually told him about this event that I thought was likely. He was pretty understanding about it (perhaps because I framed it in an Fi way?), but absolutely useless in convincing me it wouldn't happen. He just said that it's extremely unlikely from his POV and that he wished he could provide more concrete evidence, but that he couldn't. Now only time will tell.
This is kind of the opposite to what I might say or how I would think, but it doesn't sound useless. It's positive and supportive, and a kind thing to say. I'm more likely to give specific (if general) warnings that are like visions with no concrete reasoning to back them up. LSE no likey.
LSI: “I still can’t figure out Pinterest.”
Me: “It’s just, like, idea boards.”
LSI: “I don’t have ideas.”
I've never in my life done that and if a LSE is doing that a lot they are probably either sp last in the enneagram or not LSE
Frivolous spending on things that aren't used?
Delta damnation
Posts I wrote in the past contain less nuance.
If you're in this forum to learn something, be careful. Lots of misplaced toxicity.
~an extraverted consciousness is unable to believe in invisible forces.
~a certain mysterious power that may prove terribly fascinating to the extraverted man, for it touches his unconscious.
To a degree yes, relative to other types.
I still think that approach overall is a bit slanted and almost MBTI-ish overall. "SJs ARE TRADITION" and all that stuff
I think there is a spectrum overall and I'll get to this below, but, I think on one said Ni POLR or 1D Ni in general is a disinclination towards understanding certain developments yet also significance of concentration of a path being devalued, too.
So I don't think it is quite something to be pinned on either behavior, rather, those are two points on the spectrum of how people deal with their POLR - some adapt a very conservative, hands off or even avoidant approach; or have various degrees of ulterior methods.
Nobody so far seems to address what it's like from the inside so I'll try to do that below
Posts I wrote in the past contain less nuance.
If you're in this forum to learn something, be careful. Lots of misplaced toxicity.
~an extraverted consciousness is unable to believe in invisible forces.
~a certain mysterious power that may prove terribly fascinating to the extraverted man, for it touches his unconscious.
Mmm, or having no plan. I think it's a flaw in typology communities in general to say OH YEAH THIS BEHAVIOR IS CLEARLY WHAT [IE - Function] IS / DOES. I refer to my spectrum comment from before.
The other side of the spectrum is ambivalence. To plans, or a fear of making plans, or an uneasiness about not being able to see everything so they don't do anything, especially when they are feeling 'compromised'.
A tale of two ESEs:
ESE 6w5 so sp sx is a super dooper planner and very much trying to sort things out ahead of time, loves list. A fairly high achiever... focuses on GETTING PUMPED UP emotionally do things, but is not as emotive as many ESE profiles compel. She prefers to work in smaller groups rather than larger groups, even identifies with being introverted (although its clear shes an extrotim). Hard worker, and unlike peteronfires remarks, actually did some of that exploration and found out her own career path.
ESE 2w3 sx so sp is a less mature person overall, works a kind of awkwardly hour'd job at atypical hours, makes enough to pay the rent and occasionally has money but is very poor at saving it. Focuses a lot on relationships or gaming in his spare time. Everything is great all the time, except when it isn't; less emotionally mature than the above ESE and embraces the more classic alpha sense of "everything is ok if we talk about it like it's ok" kind of immaturity. Refuses to make long term plans particularly when other people are a pressuring him to do so, and even says things like "I haven't figured it out yet". Much more an avoidant POLR kind of person.
I guess. Like I said, it's not always overplanning. For some of them, they don't really plan a lot or see beyond tomorrow. They prefer people who are like them in that sense, or who won't come down to hard for them not being future oriented. I generally associate this more with alpha, but I'm kind of an elitist delta snob so roody poo for me.Then I guess the two main ways I am comforting to someone with Ni PoLR are: (1) I don't fight or criticize their overplanning when it happens, and (2) I'm very stable/consistent in my affections (they might change, but only over a very long period of time and with lots of signs/warning along the way--no sudden changes).
2 is particularly "Fi DS" oriented, in how its written. I'm not really sure about the changing things being true or not, or relevant, on their part. It is, but it also isn't, so... I wouldn't focus on that too much. I have some 'suggestions' for how to help, after i finish all this other stuff.
yeah @goldenbane 's remark is reasonable; it's kind of the generic difference between what a ILI might do and a Ne creative might do. When dealing with problems, I find EIis can be good about offering ways to make things better, PARTICULARLY offering interpersonal insight, but often more than that. A coworker in the IT department, who is EII, is really great at coming up with potential reasons or solutions to problems, but does it in a way that is not pointed or belittling or , frankly, without pushing Se into it. That makes things easier to parse for someone with 4d Se of their own, and that's where a lot of the balance comes, so more on that later. Not everyone with Ne creative is good at doing this IN THE WAY THE XSE would like, however, so be warned. Duality , even, doesn't guarantee this works seamlesslyYeeees I think this is a thing. I feel like most PoLRs can be mitigated by instincts/other functions. (But Se PoLR... Sigh. -_-) E.g., a more developed Ne HA leads to a healthy appetite for abstraction. (I love the hourglass metaphor in your signature, btw.)
Posts I wrote in the past contain less nuance.
If you're in this forum to learn something, be careful. Lots of misplaced toxicity.
~an extraverted consciousness is unable to believe in invisible forces.
~a certain mysterious power that may prove terribly fascinating to the extraverted man, for it touches his unconscious.
Shrug. I appreciate the general notion, but if that was the mean method of talking or responding to me I'd get annoyed. I don't like attempts at augmenting my mood, ironically, particularly if I"m in a bad mood. But I'm an 8, this person perhaps is a 6 or something else (enenagram), and maybe they prefer different things.This actually reminds me of two incidents. One of my LSE friends occasionally expresses to me a lot of anxiety regarding his future professional success. On one such occasion, I told him, "I know this kind of reassurance might be useless since I have no specific evidence to back it up, but I know you will do well." I wonder if that was comforting at all or just useless/annoyingly vague to him.
CHEESYYYYYYYYThe other incident is when my LSE friend and I were deciding whether to become romantically involved. We agreed that above all, we would like to be with each other for a long time to come (ideally forever), so if adding romance would possibly lead to a break-up type event where we can't be with each other at all anymore, even platonically, then we shouldn't add romance. I asked him what kind of event would lead to the inability to simply return to being platonic friends, and he said he didn't know, just that he has never broken up with/lost a purely platonic friend and that he has lost romantic partners (entirely, not just the romantic part of their relationship).
... but very delta.
I'm pretty sure that's how I actually started a relationship with a delta NF, too, with that same kind of sentiment.
I was too young and life inexperienced to really have qualifications about such, though -- I'm more sure of what those situations would be, now, though. . .
This is the exact same thing that happened with me and a complete LII babe. There was overriding chemistry and we both needed somebody... but she basically had such a feeling from the start too, and I actually did also. We didn't have a long term or serious relationship, and after certain conditions changed we ended things- which I was comfortable with and thought was the right deal. We weren't serious relationship material; I couldn't Fe as much as she wanted (it was so exhausting and felt like having to put on a show for a child, no thanks), and she didn't have the NF depth or constant relational processing that makes me feel good. But lots of S & N compatibility.I had asked him just to see if there was something I hadn't thought of; I had already thought of one major, somewhat likely type of event. In that moment, I didn't tell him exactly what it was. I only said we should probably just be friends.
We pretty quickly fell into something romantic after that, though, so I eventually told him about this event that I thought was likely.
She eventually found a great ESE later and I'm happy for them ; it's good to let people go if someone else would be a better match for them.
Sounds tricky......... good luck, I guess.He was pretty understanding about it (perhaps because I framed it in an Fi way?), but absolutely useless in convincing me it wouldn't happen. He just said that it's extremely unlikely from his POV and that he wished he could provide more concrete evidence, but that he couldn't. Now only time will tell.
I'd have to know what you really meant by seeing that things won't last, but, you probably are right, if the person is unable to comprehend the context in the way you are. People like that scare me now, because, there are unknowns in how they will deal with changes that they don't even know how to comprehend yet. Will and desire to make things work are one thing, but they are not everything.
Are you more relationally or life-experienced than he is?
Posts I wrote in the past contain less nuance.
If you're in this forum to learn something, be careful. Lots of misplaced toxicity.
~an extraverted consciousness is unable to believe in invisible forces.
~a certain mysterious power that may prove terribly fascinating to the extraverted man, for it touches his unconscious.
OK finally going to say what my response to all this would be.
Let me describe what it's like to be Ni POLR in the most painful ways for me, basically: it's being really absorbed in a specific context, one that has a limited relevance in the ever-progressing flow of time, and then feeling like you FUCKED UP when you staid there too long, or were making progress out of it or in general, but weren't.
@Minde said it very well once (I believe it was you?) about it's not that Ni pOLRs "SUCK AT PLANNING", but rather, they have an inability to update their plans in certain ways. Maybe it wasn't you, but I think of you in this instance.
Anyway, it sucks, because I very much enjoy plans, and I also very much enjoy exploring options, when I am in such a mode. I feel very Si >>>> Ni in that mode, and it creates immense mastery in a specific context, it can be very in depth; there is certain understanding and wisdom that only comes from such a kind of engrossing understanding of something. So it's not all bad. But sometimes there can be a desire to stay in, or "follow" such a state, and doing so can be at the detriment of other things happening.
I have seen variations of this for both ESE and LSE.
For me, it's extra shitty when I am not committed to or have a kind of established long term vision for things in an 'overall sense', which is why I generally like having layers of plans and agendas, pre-established. Yes, I think this is why Ni POLRS can be quite conservative sometimes, because at times they, like many other sensors, might not realize they have the human ability to change or pursue other contexts, so they just adopt the context around them. This is what a lot of SJ / MBTI Si profiles say, and leave it at that. But there's more to it than this obviously.
But it sucks when I feel like I've significantly pursued something , but somehow I just miss the implications of certain developments that are outside of my focus, and therefore even though I've built up a logically sound machine or algorithm or solution or way of doing things, my expectations about its usefulness or enduring application are thwarted or undermined.
(In a way, delta is about aspiring for perfection and the STs and NFs can want to optimize towards the opposite things.... ideally they work together to balance those desires and keep things moving)
So, that's the biggest OMFG THIS SUCKS NI POLR SMASH.
I have no problems making plans or talking about things, I love meetings, I like to talk about how to go about anything logistically. But I think Ni POLR and weak intuition in general might have a harder time 'seeing around corners', like, if they've never experienced certain classes of things, it just might not even be on the radar at all. And that's where other people having strong intuition comes in.
To speak specifically about "relations" and "Fi", there were some comments about relational stability - and yeah that is huge. It really is, for me, but more so than relations changing, even, is someone's disposition and attitude towards relations. If they seem flippant about it or sway in their prioritization of things, that's ugly and uneasy for me. I find, when healthy, people with 4d Fi and Ni have the most appealing 'vision' for how relationships should be, and their role or approach to them should be is also appealing. I get the feeling ESEs want more... "this is how to feel about things", or, a collector or focal point for all their emotions and expressions; it seems their dual is mad for absorbing 4d Se and 4d Fe, just the latter unvalueled and more flippant and buffered with Si. Comparatively, I seem to want someone who is more on board with a particular way of doing things, or that is trustworthy in being able to identify certain desirable processes or ways to go 'where I want to go', or 'where we want to go'; it's a more Fi/Te aspect of "movement", and particularly in the delta respect, what optimization looks and feels like. I feel like for alphas, they want things to kind of move towards 'what feels good' or "what everyone would enjoy", and I don't relate to that as much.
Posts I wrote in the past contain less nuance.
If you're in this forum to learn something, be careful. Lots of misplaced toxicity.
~an extraverted consciousness is unable to believe in invisible forces.
~a certain mysterious power that may prove terribly fascinating to the extraverted man, for it touches his unconscious.
... So, I find EIIs, in particular, are more able to address things in ways that are veryyyy considerate of my inner wants and desires, while also kind of having a generalized awareness of problems, and at best a pleasant way of offering solutions. I find this different from IEEs, who might be more liable to just suggest everything can change; like who cares about Ti ; and that's cool and easy in a way but it's not as steady or solid feeling as 4d Fi and Ni -- EIIs feel a lot more "bound" and "grounded"in that sense.
I do make note of the Fi and its relationship to Ni, because, I find alpha NTs create highly generalized opinions about things, and I prefer specific, individualized, or tailored input - that's what makes me feel better or trust it more, and I feel like I'm quite able to take what I want from any generalized situation or mechanism or algorithm and apply it functionally towards what I want.
So, to perhaps say something concrete,
it's not just good will, or reassurance about plans, or warnings, it's a combination, and being able to tailor that towards what 'my' inner needs are, which I might not always be consciously aware of. The hyperfocus on external workings that I mentioned above can be exhilarating, but 'we' Ni POLRS can become lost in it, so to say, and, at least for me, when the focus shifts too far away from what I really actually actually want (think very week combined FiNi, as opposed to not knowing in a Si or Se sense), that's when the weirdness is. The sense of, 'wait, what did I just optimize this for?', even though I optimized the fuck out of it, etc. Sometimes EIIs can salvage that and help me see how it wasn't useful or "a waste of time and energy' (UGGGGHHHHHH), or sometimes they can help by suggesting ways to avoid such.
NOTE: EIis will suggest things and sometimes stubborn LSEs will NOT LISTEN. Sometimes LSEs will need to do the wrong things for many times in order to learn how to trust the EII's input. That's how humans work in the real world, and it can be awkward AF at times, but the trust that comes from it is great, once it happens. I have many EII friend who I disregarded at first, but eventually trusted their council - - particularly the more as I grew in a holistic sense and could appreciate what they were seeing.
Posts I wrote in the past contain less nuance.
If you're in this forum to learn something, be careful. Lots of misplaced toxicity.
~an extraverted consciousness is unable to believe in invisible forces.
~a certain mysterious power that may prove terribly fascinating to the extraverted man, for it touches his unconscious.
and as @Minde knows, sometimes EIIs shut down from saying things because they don't feel respected enough or are dismissed or not taken seriously in ways they want to be. I mention this because it's a real thing and duality isn't rainbows and nutella all the time. There are rough edges that can be worked or or won't be, and it affects things. More enlightened LSEs are more comfortable with managing their own personal worlds and also other people's inputs and concerns about them; less enlightened, the more cumbersome they are, or outrightly defiant or petty about such input or feedback.
Posts I wrote in the past contain less nuance.
If you're in this forum to learn something, be careful. Lots of misplaced toxicity.
~an extraverted consciousness is unable to believe in invisible forces.
~a certain mysterious power that may prove terribly fascinating to the extraverted man, for it touches his unconscious.
such a Te response
@UDP, thank you for your extremely detailed response! It's so helpful to have a first-person perspective on Ni PoLR, as it's much more nuanced (and I think less based on stereotypes) than third-person perspectives (which are also useful, but in a different way). I will probably refer to your posts in the future as I spend more time with LSEs and see more examples of your descriptions in them. Some parts of your descriptions already strongly resonate with my current experience of/with LSEs, e.g.,:
As for this question:
I don't think I'm more experienced than he is, but I think I'm better at seeing the core reason behind why someone wants something, no matter how ugly it is (by ugly, I don't mean that I think the reason is immoral or bad, but just that the person's concept of him/herself would hate to see that reason).
There are several factors stacked against the long-term success of our relationship, but I think it's a good experience to be with someone about whom I cannot have EII dream sequences (we're going to get married, have kids, have a perfect storybook life, blahblahblah). I think a lot of my previous romantic partners/interests, I liked the idea of our possible future more than spending time with them in the moment, which is an ineffective/shallow way to pick a partner. Dualization (with a mature/instincts-compatible individual) is enjoyable and productive!
Yeah i understand this and would guess its very applicable here even if only going by what you say
In my past i was quite unaware that this could even happen because there were things i just never knew about - whole dimensions of thought and ways of relating (thus the disclaimer in my signature)
It's weird now seeing this in other people - not that i really have strong ni or fi but i have the experience of ignorance and knowing its absence
I think this is very much the case for many weak Fi people particularly without intuition etc etc
Posts I wrote in the past contain less nuance.
If you're in this forum to learn something, be careful. Lots of misplaced toxicity.
~an extraverted consciousness is unable to believe in invisible forces.
~a certain mysterious power that may prove terribly fascinating to the extraverted man, for it touches his unconscious.
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