Why is gay-bashing hurting gays but Bible-bashing is obsessing over Christian shit?

[Ezra]

I don't understand this.

[Creepy-male]

BnD gay-bashes, people want to hurt him.

Such is the way the world works.

j/k BnD

[Ezra]

I know a (openly) gay guy who hates gays. He also finds camp people insufferable.

[Mattie]

I know a (openly) gay guy who hates gays. He also finds camp people insufferable.

I can't speak for other people, but I doubt this is homophobia. There is a section of people who are of alternative sexuality who feel displaced and don't fit in with mainstream "gay culture." I think their beef is mostly with that rather than gay people themselves. Though, I have met a couple of self-loathing gay men, it typically has to do with something about them more than gay culture.

[Slacker]

I used to know a black man who wanted to join the Michigan Militia. Yes, there are people who are not at peace. But both groups are still victims of discrimination. In fact, that's probably evidence of it - they've just internalized the discrimination. I don't dislike people with blue eyes or wish I could join a group that discriminates against people with blue eyes. I don't even think about having blue eyes as being anything interesting, because I am not discriminated against for having blue eyes.

[anndelise]

You've got it slightly off..:wink:
gay-bashing hurts gays...
bible-bashing hurts non-religious folks.

The point of both is to try to force the 'opposing' party to conform.
Bashing gays to try to force them to conform to being non-gay.
Bashing non-religious folks to force them to conform to being religious.

What bugs me about the trying to force gays to conform to being non-gay is that it takes on such religious fervor. It's like a two-for one bashing deal, regardless of whether or not the gay person is religious. :frown:


(uh...this was to the OP... not to slackermom who's one post above me)

[Slacker]

Yeah, I guess in the OP, the answer is that in one case, the group in question is the object being bashed, and in the other the group in question is the subject doing the bashing.

[Sirena]

I don't understand this.

+1.

[duality is cringe]

Sirena's a total homo.

[Sirena]

Sirena's a total homo.

No, I'm just rainbow gay. Better than being a total pussy...like you!

[JuJu]

what's wrong with gays ?? -- (aside from fag dance music) -- you're not over the whole penis-in-butt thing yet?

[Sirena]

what's wrong with gays ?? -- (aside from fag dance music) -- you're not over the whole penis-in-butt thing yet?

lmao. (no pun)

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

Homosexuality can only naturally thrive in a socially liberal atmosphere. Otherwise men who prefer men won't be able to act upon those desires, and will either be locked away somewhere being emo or they will be bashed by misunderstood people. I don't think the majority of homophobes are evil people. Just sheltered, misguided folks that need more exposure to homosexuals.... that's why 'coming out of the closet' is a big deal in some areas. One homo can change the world!!!

Big, liberal cities accept gays. As do college towns. It's really no big deal at all there. Like *Yawn* a homosexual. ZZZZzz.

However religious communities, areas with a lot of internal moralizing but not a lot of aesthetic pleasures, do not like the gays. (Or even if they do like them, they put us on an unfair standard compared to other people) Anything socially 'out of the box' or out of the norm is too frightening to people -- and not just homosexuals but many other issues.

You can drive to one town and it's all YAY GAYS then drive in another and it's Eww....Gays. It differs so radically depending on the social climate of the city.

Michigan as a whole is on the fence, ambivalent about homosexuals- because of the area. But they're not as bad as some other places.

And California is surprisingly homophobic save for a few select areas and gay ghettos.

[Hitta]

I hate when people turn homosexuality into a culture and try to become famous through it. Homosexuality is a form of sexuality, not a word used to describe people that like colorful clothes, listen to a certain type of music, and talk a certain way. I don't see anything wrong with doing those things, but all gay people aren't like that.

[xyz]

I hate when people turn homosexuality into a culture and try to become famous through it.

I hate it when people do this with almost anything.

Ie, fucking hipsters.

And California is surprisingly homophobic save for a few select areas and gay ghettos.

Um, excuse me, how the fuck do you know this? Have you lived all over california? Most of the good places to live gays don't make a dent. Places like Woodland is where gays aren't really accepted. But news flash, those places are fucking dumps anyway, so just move away.

You can't get along with everyone. Some people will dislike you for being short, for being brown, for believing in god, for liking Cold Play, or for turning select nancy boys into cum buckets. Trust me, you don't have to be called "Cowboy Cumdump" to be hated on in any area.

You can't get along with everyone, so just stop your goddamn whining.

[Hitta]

I hate it when people do this with almost anything.

Ie, fucking hipsters.

Yea same.

[xyz]

And California is surprisingly homophobic save for a few select areas and gay ghettos.

Um, excuse me, how the fuck do you know this? Have you lived all over california? Most of the good places to live gays don't make a dent in the hate meter. Places like Woodland is where gays aren't really accepted. But news flash, those places are fucking dumps anyway, so just move away.

You can't get along with everyone. Some people will dislike you for being short, for being brown, for believing in god, for liking Cold Play, or for turning select nancy boys into cum buckets. Trust me, you don't have to be called "Cowboy Cumdump" to be hated on in any area.

You can't get along with everyone, so just stop your goddamn whining.

[anndelise]

Just to be an annoying ILI, obviously the reverse is true. I speak from who I used to be (religious) and while I tried to be 'tolerant' I was the receiving end of a lot of discrimination because I was different and because people assumed shit about me and my motives and I normally don't say stuff like this, but I deserved absolutely none of it.

There is always, ALWAYS two sides to the coin.

Not annoying.
You brought up a good point. :wink:

Let's see...
How to approach this while keeping in context of the OP...
There are also ...um..
...let's call them "Bible-bashers"...people who bash those who believe in the Bible and/or religious texts..and/or bash the texts themselves. Motivations can include trying to force the believer to conform to 'non-believing' (not sure what the appropriate word would be), or as retaliation for feeling as if one has been Bible-bashed by a believer, or to try to get the believer to believe in a different religion.


(lol, I almost said "belief" as that last word just to keep the alliteration)

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

Calm down.

I know this because I have family in California and been to many cities in the state. Central California for example is very socially conversative and has problems with gay people, it is socially acceptable to talk bad about gay men there still. As well as some places in SoCal.

Plus California is the state that banned gay marriage. Just because it has a lot of gay porn filmed does NOT mean that it's yay on the gays. It's just thought of as 'oooh the gay place!' still, partly because the United States is still behind on social issues compared to most of the developing world.

The New England states are better for homosexuals, technically speaking. (Vermont probably being the best)

But news flash, those places are fucking dumps anyway, so just move away.

'News Flash' yourself, you patronizing asshat. And that's easy for you to say. The homosexuals that live there might like the 'dumpy area.' Not all of us enjoy shiny, trite expensive things. Why should we have to congreate just to get acceptance? Besides you're being hypocritical. You said 'I don't see why they have to make a culture out of it!' and that's exactly what cities try to do to make more money. Some people like the small-town life, so gay activism needs to be everywhere, not just 'preaching to the choir' in safe spots. In fact it needs to be the reversed. Why go on and on about something in a place where gays already have equal opportunities? That's just so narcissistic.

Jee, a gay man might WANT to live in a place with actual homoeroticsm rather than some uppity, preppy city, no? Who woulda thunk!

[Minde]

Just to be an annoying ILI, obviously the reverse is true. I speak from who I used to be (religious) and while I tried to be 'tolerant' I was the receiving end of a lot of discrimination because I was different and because people assumed shit about me and my motives and I normally don't say stuff like this, but I deserved absolutely none of it.

There is always, ALWAYS two sides to the coin.

Mhm. Often, when I say or "let out" I'm a Christian, it's like people suddenly change their perceptions of me and start expecting me to hate and to be judgmental and be "close-minded" etc. There are a lot of preconceived notions about "religious people" particularly Christians, I've found.

It's understandable, in a way, because that's kind of how the human mind works; it's like a survival trait/mechanism or something, where you categorize and make boxes and assumptions based on your experiences before. Like when a kid doesn't stick his hand in a flame because the last time he did it hurt. For example, I've also found that the people who have strong negative reactions to their discovery that I'm Christian have had bad experiences in their pasts with people who call themselves Christian. There are also people who react badly because they've heard stories and dogma about it, too. Like, "Christians are sour-faced hypocritical oppressors who want everyone to live in the squalor of the dark ages and who think all science and knowledge should be squelched." If someone you respect and like says something like that (or anything, really) a lot to you, you might end up having that in the back of your mind.

The prejudice is understandable, in that way, but also a bit sad to me, and sometimes frustrating. I don't like being judged for something I'm not anymore than the next person.

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

You can't get along with everyone, so just stop your goddamn whining.

I already explained it's NOT about being liked or getting along with anybody.

The only person whining here is you. You're the one losing your temper and getting upset at me. Not the other way around. It is *You* that is losing your cool and acting "faggy" and overly emotional. I'm just sitting here chillin, drinking a pepsi and going ??? because I cannot understand your hostility toward me.

I was merely stating the facts.

You need to calm down and learn how to listen to people. A better question to ask might be 'What about this issue is causing you to be irrational and hostile?'

[xyz]

Calm down.

I know this because I have family in California and been to many cities in the state. Central California for example is very socially conversative and has problems with gay people, it is socially acceptable to talk bad about gay men there still. As well as some places in SoCal.

Plus California is the state that banned gay marriage. Just because it has a lot of gay porn filmed does NOT mean that it's yay on the gays.

California isn't a knee-jerk left liberal place the media makes it out to be. Just because we have 2 of the biggest and most liberal cities in our state does not make the whole state so.

The New England states are better for homosexuals, technically speaking. (Vermont probably being the best)

Well, if it's better, then go there?

You seem to think that just because you're living one way we are all just supposed to be hunky-dory about it. Trust me, we don't have to be.

And this is coming from someone who doesn't even have anything against gays! You're basically trying to shove a culture down our throat and act surprised when we tell you to knock-it-the-fuck-off.

'News Flash' yourself, you patronizing asshat. And that's easy for you to say. The homosexuals that live there might like the 'dumpy area.' Not all of us enjoy shiny, trite expensive things.

I never said anything about anything shiny. Or expensive. Where the hell are you getting this from?

Why should we have to congreate just to get acceptance? Besides you're being hypocritical. You said 'I don't see why they have to make a culture out of it!' and that's exactly what cities try to do to make more money.

More money?? The hell does that mean? Cities are expensive as a rule man. That has nothing to do with gays.

Some people like the small-town life, so gay activism needs to be everywhere,

No, it does not. Why should you ram your culture down my throat? Geez.

You need to stop spinning these strawman arguments and face the fact that gays, latinos, blacks, what have you aren't excepted everywhere AND IT DOESN'T MATTER IF IT'S WRITTEN IN THE LAWS OR NOT THAT THEY HAVE TO BE. It's the way it is and to believe otherwise is a fantasy.

[xyz]

I was merely stating the facts.

No, that is my major malfunction with you. You are NOT stating any facts, you're merely bitching that you don't get to have it your way and your way exclusively.

Or maybe you really just do love whining. Whatever.

[force my hand]

Mhm. Often, when I say or "let out" I'm a Christian, it's like people suddenly change their perceptions of me and start expecting me to hate and to be judgmental and be "close-minded" etc. There are a lot of preconceived notions about "religious people" particularly Christians, I've found.

Do you really come across that many non-religious people?

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

You can project whatever motives you want on me Loki, if you wish. But that's ultimately only hurting you in the end.

I'm not gonna get into it with you as you refuse to be fair and objective in dealing with me, and I really do not have the time to help you with whatever emotional hang-up in your life is causing you to be unhappy enough to treat others like this. Besides, as they say, arguing on the internet is like competing in the special olympics. Even if you win, you're still retarded.

I'll just say that when I'm being 'vulgar sexual' I am usually mocking those types of beliefs rather than I'm accepting them. You just seem to be a bad judge of motive in others, and it causes other people to be confused by you...

Also I'm not even sure what Ezra was trying to get at in this thread. Have you even studied the long history between homosexuals vs. christians?

[Minde]

Do you really come across that many non-religious people?

No, not really, IRL anyway. Most people I know have at least some sense of or belief in the spiritual, even if it tends toward agnosticism.


From what I remember of you, you tend to be non-religious, right? Now that you know I'm a Christian, what is your perception of me? What are your expectations? I'm curious.

[force my hand]

From what I remember of you, you tend to be non-religious, right? Now that you know I'm a Christian, what is your perception of me? What are your expectations? I'm curious.

Hmm, well, I think I remember from before that you were a Christian. If not, then it doesn't surprise me in a general sense that an INFj would believe in God, based on stereotypes alone. (But then again, having some insight into your thought processes via your posts, I would not have been surprised had you said you were non-religious.)

Knowing that 85-90% of Americans have some supernatural belief, I think I subconsciously assume that everyone I meet (who doesn't reference religion or God outright) is a non-churchgoing theist. I think that has led me to a general acceptance of religious belief, but I still find myself irked by some of the reasons people believe. This likely stems from the circumstances of my own deconversion where I feel like I've put more work about my beliefs than the vast majority of people.

To answer your other question, I don't know that I have any expectations. But when dealing with non-evangelical Christians, I always hope that they use their brain a bit to challenge old prejudices. I like it when Christians exhibit a 'social conscience' because I see that a lot more true to the overall message of religion - positive, communtarian, hopeful.

Conversely, religion as framed in the following video seems very crude and base.. it seems like they don't even know why they believe in anything beyond 'just because':

[Minde]

(But then again, having some insight into your thought processes via your posts, I would not have been surprised had you said you were non-religious.)

Thanks. Coming from you, I'll take that as a semi-compliment, lol.

This likely stems from the circumstances of my own deconversion where I feel like I've put more work about my beliefs than the vast majority of people.

Yeah, I remember you expressing that before.

To answer your other question, I don't know that I have any expectations. But when dealing with non-evangelical Christians, I always hope that they use their brain a bit to challenge old prejudices. I like it when Christians exhibit a 'social conscience' because I see that a lot more true to the overall message of religion - positive, communtarian, hopeful.

Conversely, religion as framed in the following video seems very crude and base.. it seems like they don't even know why they believe in anything beyond 'just because':

YouTube - Asking Anti-Abortion Demonstrators an Important Question

You're right, that video is a little... off-putting, to say the least. Is that generally how you (or anyone else who would like to answer) view Christians, particularly evangelicals? Is that the typical impression they make on you?

[force my hand]

You're right, that video is a little... off-putting, to say the least. Is that generally how you (or anyone else who would like to answer) view Christians, particularly evangelicals? Is that the typical impression they make on you?

Short answer, yes.

The long answer is that the way the video is edited is analogous to the kind of filter an atheist will employ when dealing with an evangelical Christian. For example, one woman makes a comment that women who get abortions should be shown love, which essentially reflects my hope that Christians show a social conscience. But that message tends to get lost in the noise of, I've-been-doing-this-for-five-years-but-have-never-actually-bothered-to-think-about-it. To me, it's not a stretch to assume they employ the same sort of reasoning with other issues such as gay marriage and stem cell research.

My gut reaction is to fear these kinds of people, but after further consideration I realize that just because a group is loud doesn't mean they are numerous or even representative.

[Slacker]

There are the stereotypical Christians who turn religion into some kind of competition about who can hate the most people. Like the whole "I hate fags" Phelps guy. But those do seem to be the minority. Most Christians I know aren't at all like that. And they're all very different. Much more difference among them than the atheists I know. So I guess I have no one idea of what they're like.

[force my hand]

There are the stereotypical Christians who turn religion into some kind of competition about who can hate the most people. Like the whole "I hate fags" Phelps guy. But those do seem to be the minority. Most Christians I know aren't at all like that. And they're all very different. Much more difference among them than the atheists I know. So I guess I have no one idea of what they're like.

Do you know many atheists?

Ironically, I don't.

[Warlord]

Just to be an annoying ILI, obviously the reverse is true. I speak from who I used to be (religious) and while I tried to be 'tolerant' I was the receiving end of a lot of discrimination because I was different and because people assumed shit about me and my motives and I normally don't say stuff like this, but I deserved absolutely none of it.

There is always, ALWAYS two sides to the coin.

Yeah, my experience is that people who most preach about tolerance, are among the ones who are the most intolerant of other people's different views.

[Minde]

For the record, I consider myself an evangelical Christian.

Yeah, my experience is that people who most preach about tolerance, are among the ones who are the most intolerant of other people's different views.

I've thought about that before - the irony of being intolerant of intolerance.

[Mattie]

I've seen that video before, and it infuriates me. I'm a huge secularist (not width-wise, thankfully), and hearing those answers drives me up the wall. It might be the area I live in (South Florida is liberal, and we have a couple of colleges) but I run into lots of people who consider themselves outside of organized religion, like atheists, agnostics, spiritual, etc. I would say most people here are apathetic about their religion, and are it just because they were brought up that religion. We do have Evangelicals, though, who like to be loud on campus and around town, and I've gotten into many discussions with them. I feel like the younger ones do question the methods of their faith, and it's disturbing to them, while older ones are just broken records with no thought behind their actions. It's sad, really, because in this country it tends to be the loudest who get things done, and when the loudest are not the best aspect of your religion, you can only expect the bad rap overall.

[force my hand]

For the record, I consider myself an evangelical Christian.

Do you really? Not that it changes the way I react to you.

But I am curious - do you consider yourself such based on belief, method/practice, or association?

[Minde]

Do you really? Not that it changes the way I react to you.

But I am curious - do you consider yourself such based on belief, method/practice, or association?

Mainly in the belief sense. Somewhat in the practice/method, though to me that isn't as important, at least in terms of traditions and whatnot. As far as association - well, association is a subjective viewpoint. For example, I associate with other people who I consider evangelicals, but I'd be a bit silly to say I associate with the kind of people in that video.


Speaking of which, I was thinking about that video you showed, how it kind of exemplifies how people tend to view Christians, particularly evangelicals. It's a little strange to me (as well as sad), because while I do see that in some places and in some people and in some groups of people, living as a Christian means so much more to me - there's so much else, a whole different way of living and looking at things. I've been thinking a bit of how I could show that to you, and other people. I looked around briefly just now for some videos that might show a little bit more of my own experiences, of what life as a Christian should be more like. I found one that's kind of close. I think it might be similar to what you consider the "socially minded" Christians.

Season of Service - Overview, 6 min.

This is much more the kind of people who I associate with Christianity. The kinds of activities in that video are a little bit more, um, once-in-awhile compared to "normal" living, but it's the same attitude of giving and loving and living what we believe that I tend to associate with real Christianity (as opposed to the people who say one thing and do another - those frustrate me).

[marooned]

No, it does not. Why should you ram your culture down my throat? Geez.

It is very troubling though that one has to be careful where they live because in certain places they could be murdered because of their sexuality... having to look at all the places in terms of how strong of a hate zone it is, and avoiding those places to protect oneself. Granted a place in which people are deeply hateful, is one where probably no one is really safe. But anyway.

[xyz]

It is very troubling though that one has to be careful where they live because in certain places they could be murdered because of their sexuality... having to look at all the places in terms of how strong of a hate zone it is, and avoiding those places to protect oneself. Granted a place in which people are deeply hateful, is one where probably no one is really safe. But anyway.

Yeah. It just doesn't make sense to try to talk "sense" into people who will just as soon kill ya than to look at you differently.