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wake up call from reality - do you accept the charges?
You can categorize each paragraph by reducing it to a basic idea without really getting the point.
All I'm saying is duality describes a psychological relationship and offers a substantial explanation to the mechanics of the pysche but if there is other hinderances then that determines the nature of the relationship, i.e. healthy or unhealthy relationship. Consider maslow's heiarchy of needs. If you enter into a dual relationship with someone who has only achieved basic necessities and yet your at a level of self-actualization - that can be a huge strain.
Lets say your dual has one or more of the following: OCD, ADD, schizophenia, Bi-polar, depression, alcohol/drug addiction, narcisstic personality disorder, split personality, pathological, anti-social, historinic personailty disorder, etc. Simply put any psychological condition will inherently alter the nature of any relationship - duality is no exception, nor is it a cure!
To bring it down a notch to a more managable state, here are some other traits your dual may have: inferiority complex, superiority complex, guilt complex, father/mother complex, abandoment issues, commitment phobia, self-esteem issues, etc.
I was rejected by a girl because she grew up with a few extra pounds. There is nothing you can do about even though I was never bothered by her weight and yes she was my dual and yes we went through the stages of duality but ultimately never developed a real romantic relationship. To be honest, yes of course I'm bitter! If I was all fine and dandy about it that only means I didn't really care. Trust me, I wasn't interested in her to prove duality is real. I am suppose to believe she just wants her independence which is a lie.
What I'm saying is not meant to ridicule nor diminish the value to understanding duality, but to put duality into context. Put it this way, if you can't seem to have a stable and happy relationship with your dual, well its likely you can't have a stable and happy relationship with anyone. Do you see my point?
I hear this rhetoric like INTJ's can handle ESFJ's aberrant behaviour but as a matter of fact that is not true - tolerant is not the same as being appreciative. Honestly I've met some really cool women who I'd like to date for that reason, because their really nice and I can appreciate that completely separate from whether or not their my dual. I've also stayed away from certain women too following the same approach. Truthfully if INTj's were less tolerant they'd likely tell those annoying ESFJ's to f*^# off like everyone else does. Basically INTJ's are made out to be ESFJ's scratching posts - what kind of messed up relationship is that?
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What you are trying to say is that there is a spectrum within each type that goes from healthy to unhealthy, and unhealthy types no matter the relations can't get along because they have problems. That's fine. We can simply separate the basket case ESE's and the normal, loving ESE's. Stay away from all unhealthy (physically, mentally, or emotionally) types at all costs or suffer the consequences and you should be fine. If an unhealthy subject is willing to fix their problems, helping them would be fine too.
Again you seem to be describing an Aggressor/Victim relationship.Originally Posted by chip
Alpha SF / Alpha NT relationships look more like Parent / Child.
If you truly believe ESFj's are inherently annoying, you may want to read some INTp descriptions.
ILI (FINAL ANSWER)
the holy grail
okay with a bit of work yes my point seems to be valid and I agree perhaps that the best conditions for learning is when things work, i.e. demonstrating the eight stages of duality with examples. When the stages of duality do not work instead of doubting the two partners are duals, as if duality is perfect and anything imperfect can not be duality, consider that perhaps there is other additional reasons, i.e. psychological health. People may cite common sense reasons such as long distance, infedelity, unattractiveness, immaturity, stressful time in their life, etc.
To come clean I naievely believed duality meant finding true love to be like finding the holy grail. I'd never have to bother with the dating scene nor involve myself in unnessecary drama - I don't like the hassel. First hand experience has taught me alot in terms of differienciating the idealisation of duality and coming to terms with the reality of a relationship.
If I had any other point it is don't do what I did: having blind faith in socionics without really comprehending the entire situation. To look at a relationship and categorize it accordingly is only an interpreation of the situation. It is having knowledge without understanding. I get frustrated when I see other people making the same mistake - perhaps they need to make that mistake to learn because its not a matter of education but experience. Even if there was small print: "warning results may vary".
I'd most certainly like to meet a nice ESFJ who can change my mind - my soul has been taken over my apathy.
Yeah I doubt the point of intertype relations was to "find any dual on the block" but to find someone special and type them to find where the relationship might lead, then go on from there.
ILI (FINAL ANSWER)
Bump.
Might be five years late, but I have experienced relatively recently (and surpassed) stages 1, 3, & 2 (in that order) with a confirmed ESE. Stages 4 and 5 are ongoing.
I think im experiencing it now...and in the same exact order you described. Im in stage 4 now, i dont know if the other person is or not, and its so true how it gets painful and unpleasant when separation cant be avoided. It would help if mutual feelings could be admitted to, so that inclusive plans can be made, but i cant be totally sure its mutual at this point and i dont want to interfere with his job hunting process that preceded my meeting him, which might take him to a far away place in a few months, so I cannot let him know with words how i feel, but i hope ive been making it sufficiently clear via body language,etc, its really the only thing i can do right nowIn this thread, there was an interesting discussion on the stages that Duality goes through, and I'm interested in looking at it from a specifically Alpha angle. For those of you who have had experience with some or all of these stages of Dualization, in what order did they play out, and in what way? I'm curious if there's any consistent pattern for the different types and dual pairs, as the article suggests. I'm especially interested in getting an ESE perspective on this, if there happens to be any of them hanging around here, say after having returned from a long absence...
I'll post my own (somewhat limited) experiences below.
For my part, I've known at least four ESEs with whom I've experienced at least a few of these stages of Duality: a choir instructor of mine, an aunt, a former co-worker, and a girl from church. For whatever reason, they're all female. Perhaps attraction plays a role, even in cases where there is clearly no possibility of or desire for a pairing? I've also known some other ESEs with whom I've never been close enough to experience any of these stages.
In my experience, from a distance the ESE appears admirable and fun, but too busy and popular to pay any attention to me. After interacting a bit, however, the first stage to appear is Stage 3 -- a strange feeling of safety, like this person is "on my side". I feel like I know and understand this person in a way that nobody else seems to. I've never had the "Where do I know you from" feeling of confusion that Stage 2 describes, but there is this peculiar feeling of understanding -- like I can just glance at this person and know what she's thinking, or if she's struggling to explain something, I immediately understand and can finish explaining for her. There's this subtle "us against the world" feeling, well before the relationship is remotely close enough to warrant it.
The next stage to appear, I think, is Stage 7, the leveling of Dual energy. This seems to happen after somewhat longer periods of one-on-one or mostly one-on-one interaction, say 5-10 minutes or more. It's this relaxed feeling of calmness and stillness, where I no longer feel internally stretched and drained from the stress of social interaction and Super-Ego-related worry. I feel stronger and more able to take on the world.
This is followed naturally by Stage 5, the feeling of internal joy. I've reached this stage with only two of the four ESEs under consideration. It's pretty great. I've been known to dance a jig afterwards.
Somewhere in there, Stage 1 occurs -- the sensation of a necessity to meet again. It's subtle at first, but it grows stronger and stronger, until eventually, at some point after the internal joy thing, it turns into Stage 4, the feeling of the "impossibility" of being separated even for a short time. I've experienced this with only one ESE, and it's been quite unpleasant, as the feeling of separation being impossible even for a short time does not actually prevent separation, even for a long time. Also, despite what the article says, it seems that this "impossibility" is not necessarily simultaneous or equal in both duals.Ah, woe is me.
I haven't really experienced stages 6 or 8 in any significant way, so far.
So yeah, I'm particularly interested in how ESEs experience all this, since as an LII I find it nearly impossible to tell what other people are really feeling. I'm also interested in how ILE and SEI experiences compare -- while there's obviously a personal element to my interest in all this, I am also genuinely interested in the underlying mechanisms. So what say you?
Last edited by Suz; 11-27-2015 at 03:44 AM.
Enneagram: 9w1 6w5 2w3 so/sx
So ZED how did your duality experience play out?
I could probably shoehorn my experiences to fit these stages, but I'd rather not.
I'm short on time but I'll try to be as detailed as I can in the few minutes I have to spare.
Let me start with the most significant dualization experiences I've had. First, there was the ESE from high school. It was so strange - we hung out in totally different cliques, me with the chess club (mainly ILIs, who beat me silly, one other LII guy) and her with her cheerleader friendsbut I felt like it was her and I against the world, we didn't speak much, but when we did, it seemed like we didn't have to. We understood each other in a way that felt like we had known each other for years - a lifetime even. She'd generally avoid speaking to me when her friends were around - they didn't like me much - but if I got her alone we'd sort of go into this bubble, not allowing anyone else into it.
I eventually fell in love with her but didn't realise it. Weird, huh? In my mind we were too different, and I was expecting to end up with another introvert. Everyone else on the other hand noticed. They kept on making comments on how "playful" we were in each other's company (which strangely seemed to be PolR based, she'd pretend to be very Se and I'd pretend to be very Ni, which annoyed her, which I found really amusing.) Only after consistent comments from random people I saw that it was only me who hadn't realized the feelings I had for her yet.
Another thing she does: if we're at a party, I generally move away from the crowd to a spot which is more quiet, and I put my earphones on and listen to my metal (I hate the rap rubbish they usually seem to play around here) but she will come find me and drag me back into everyone else's company, where the Fe is at. She can't stand the feeling that I'm being left out.
She seems to have this freaky understanding of how my mind works. For example, she'd invite me to some sort of shared recreational activity. My focus will always be on the "point" of the activity. For example, knitting. I'd say, but winter is so far away. She won't try to rationalize why we need to knit anyway, she gets that i'm not seeing that it is more about the social interaction than the activity itself, and she will point this out.
That's all for now, I'll come and be analytical later.
YA, Pretty much experienced the same thing. I met a ESE who at first didn't strike me as anyone special she was nice and cute. Suddenly We worked one terrible night-shift together. it was just Me and HER and we totally HIT it off. Like down to nartually falling into sync with each other. Looking out for the others Weakness somehow It was like instinctive. No romance feelings just a nice warm friendship. She- is married You know that Legendary ESE commitment...... She kept texting me I kept wanting to text back.... Months go by. We keep getting closer and closer. Long story short. We realize we're in love with each other. ESE is torn between duty and promise of marriage. We both are in-deep it's same exact thing like ZED describes. Only we are farther along and past the denial and open and lost for what to do. I want be with her more than anything in this world. I can't bring myself to push and break up her marriage.... Kind of have a little bit. I can't help it she's Like perfect mate. I can only promise to be with her and walk with her every step of way. Once ESE finally admits her feelings she will yoyo. she can't help herself. I am so deeply in love with this woman I can't even date other woman or be interested in anyone else. I tired to go on a date few weeks ago. I knew it, I couldn't stop comparing this beautiful woman I'm on a date with whose single.... Available . To my ESE I love, nothing she did compared to the ESE..... Well
If anyone is reading this You've relaized the pickle I am in. She's married I've tried gave it everything I have. I can't make her end her marriage, If I keep spending so much time with her, I am never going to have room in my heart for someone else. We have both tried to push the other away, we find ourselves caving and making up. I can't... This time I need some space to clear my head. Guess what she's been trying even harder now to close distance it is torturing my heart. I was never programmed to love someone this much.... I can't... the other day at work, was first time she's seen me in a week. would constantly keep coming over to my work area. first time was her Zesty and wonderful self.... I resisted. She then came again very panic and sorry she put so much pressure on me to get over my distance thing and for me to come over her work area. the last few times She grew madder and madder. That killed my heart most, I just stood their shell shocked like. how can this be, I have tried everything I could, Given more, allowed the Relationship to grow incredibly off balanced and still didn't mind. I just needed to be around her no matter what the cost or dynamic. like MY soul feels like it found a home with her. Now here she is upset, almost in a rage, at me for No reason I can truly understand. I have to pull back! She has husband and family to go home to. I can't even date someone I used to have hots for. Now I am sitting her wondering if I have done right thing. Seeing her that upset with me, kind of hurt deeply. No idea what to say next week when I see her or what to do. Just going to try and maintain my distance..... from the woman of my dreams....First person I've ever truly loved with my entire soul......... Yup....
^Dat Ne. This is why ILE's don't have GF's until they are past 40.
Just to update everyone, things didn't work out with that individual from my post in Nov 2015. He was attracted to me as a very good platonic friend whereas I was attracted in a different way. Whether it was duality or not - I think maybe it still was, which is why there was an ease, a closeness, and an attraction, the latter just happened to be of a different variety. Duality should not be synonymous with sexual attraction.
Enneagram: 9w1 6w5 2w3 so/sx
Sorry to hear that, @Suz.
You'll find a better guy soon.
Funny you say that, I actually mistyped myself back in the day, I tested/ KNEW I had to be ENTP. After a few months of research and deciding MBTI was the real McCoy and a great way to gauge someones aptitude. I told my psychiatrist what I thought.... he laughed and said.... Nope You are a ... INTJ... ( dysfucntional family, unhealthy childhood. Very strong in perspective) lead to some interesting results. About... 2 years ago ironically, I started realize how important it was express FE to people I care about. Let me tell ya I've Plunged head long into this endeavor and glad to see the fruits of my labor are starting to be noticed. TRUST ME I have dealt with my fair share of unhealthy ESE at one time or another. Turns out a unhealthy intj really rubs an unhealthy ESFJ wrong way. Lets no shoe box types because, MBti & Socionics are more like guidelines on how an individual might be. More of an Art than Science if you ask me. ( Dyslexia btw God had to humble me somehow I guess.) still new to socionics kind of bypassed it when I was devouring everything MBTI.
UGH you sound just like ESE I loveeeee. Can't i just admire the things I enjoy about you. Ya sure you a prone to emotional out burst. and falling victim to your emtionons. mixed with snap judgement. it took me a long time figure out it out....ESE bark is worse than his or her bite.
This text reads more like the ILI @End than it does LII. Are you sure of your type?
tests at http://www.sociotype.com/tests/, FWIW.
Alright I will play along and take your test... Healthyish well balanced types tend to be hard to pin down..... Plus... I stumbled across a research article that explains how troubled childhoods can really twist and distort some of the types preferences and growth. If I find it I will post it
I wonder the same thing thought honestly for a long time, This article helped explain a lot for me.
https://mbtifiction.com/2015/10/23/intjs-and-trauma/
Yes, I know a few ILI's (MBTI INTJ's or socionics INTp's). One is one of my oldest friends, another is my legal advisor, another is my shrink, another is my tax atty, and I've worked with a few and have even dated a female ILI. They all seem to have had really, really bad relationships with their fathers.
On the other hand, they are more successful at finding good SO's than the LII's seem to be. If you are ILI, you should be looking for an SEE, not an ESE.
Ugh, my favorite brother is a SEE, and my twin sister is a SEE. I can't be around SEE's for to long they tend to drain the shit out of me. To tried to get into the details. They always have a mild drug obsession. I just love me some ESE, they usually provide the most comfortable and warm homes to be in. My aunt is a ESE, I know what I am getting into. They keep home clean and warmly decorated , They make diligent mothers. LOVE their children to death.... They usually cook some of best food you will ever put in your mouth. They just give give give... All they want back is to be appreciated... a lot. bonus points if you notice the things they do and praise them for it. They just want to know the shit they does matter. IT REALLY does life is nothing but mundane little things I despise, but ESE will tackle them headlong for people they love. If they start get a little over whelmed ( the ESE check engine light comes on ) just notice jump in help with some of shit around house. Run some ESE maintenance and POW you have a happy ESE
Oh I use to be terrible at finding healthy SO. Two long relationships I had with two completely different people want terrible for two different reasons I am calling BS on the whole INTJ is a INTP in socionics I don;t buy it as of right now. Types aren't as cookie cutter as people make them out to be. They definelty follow some trends. but they aren't always so generic
Last edited by fairda; 12-10-2017 at 04:00 PM.
@Adam Strange I'd like to think I'm a bit more coherent and thoughtful than that but if you cram enough booze down an ILI's throat ya just might be able to get em'/me to sound like that.
I was always pretty certain of my type. Not because I was some fedora tipping elitist who reveled in his introversion and abilities in foresight, but because the descriptions sounded hauntingly familiar. The more tests I took and the more I tried to disprove the assertion, the more all the data told me I was exactly what the tests told me I was.
Rare is the man/woman who aspires to be a type and is also that type. People like me would have loved to be proven wrong...
Last edited by End; 01-12-2018 at 05:23 AM.
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