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Thread: What does Fe seeking feel like

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    Default What does Fe seeking feel like

    What does it feel like?
    And what does being around Fe feel like? And what is the power it holds over you (suggestible)

    (LxI or xLE-Ti)

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    Quote Originally Posted by persimmonism View Post
    What does it feel like?
    And what does being around Fe feel like? And what is the power it holds over you (suggestible)

    (LxI or xLE-Ti)
    This might help, I have an LSI friend and I've noticed he schedules Fe things with family. There is golfing, and movie watching, and his things, that are separated from overarching Fe themes/things.

    It's like to have a calendar on the wall, and you put X on the dates for Fe schedules.

    Once time is up, you know it.

    As far as our interactions there is commraderie and humor and deep talk sometimes. His wife is EIE not very extraverted type. More thinky type, with analogies, unlike my mother in your other thread.

    His Fe looks thinky Fe. It's solving things but there is warmth still. It's just measured out. One hour intervals

    Hope this helps.
    Last edited by Expansion; 05-25-2023 at 09:20 PM.



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    Wanting someone to change your diaper really badly because it's stinky.

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    Suggestive is the most childish function, most naive and vulnarable. It's weakest by Jung, in both E/I variants.

    For Fe
    Higher need to get external info about what is good/decent and bad/wrong (in "objective", social values sense), what is a basis for joy or sorrow. To see and accept emotions of other people related to such assignments.
    This helps to have a motivation to an activity, to support better emotional state, arise self acceptance (when doing that "decent"), to feel the life as having more of meaning.

    Base Ti trust easier to positive and negative Fe evaluations about themselves too.
    Words alike "you are gorgeouse" they take seriously and inspire in them best feelings. While words alike "you are shame" may hit their self-esteem.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fractals View Post
    Wanting someone to change your diaper really badly because it's stinky.
    This would be physical care (S), not emotional one (F).
    Last edited by Sol; 05-28-2023 at 10:25 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sol View Post

    This would be physical care (S), not emotional one (F).
    Are you saying I wear diapers and I'm just projecting? I was speaking metaphorically. haha!

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    I don't know how to put it well but I'll try.

    It's hard to explain "how it feels" because Fe is feeling. Without it there's nothing and with it everything seems richer and put in its proper value-context. That's where its "power" is. Priorities or values I try to establish independently seem abstract or irrelevant compared to strong enough Fe expression. It can easily convince me to do things or care about things I wouldn't otherwise.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FreelancePoliceman View Post
    I don't know how to put it well but I'll try.

    It's hard to explain "how it feels" because Fe is feeling. Without it there's nothing and with it everything seems richer and put in its proper value-context. That's where its "power" is. Priorities or values I try to establish independently seem abstract or irrelevant compared to strong enough Fe expression. It can easily convince me to do things or care about things I wouldn't otherwise.
    Oh right... pretty biased phrasing on my part, haha
    I suppose I meant "feel" as in sensation, not emotion.

    If it convinces you to do things/care about things you wouldn't otherwise, does the effect stop when the source of Fe leaves? Or maybe it wanes and you forget the importance/value?

    So when you are 4D Ti, is it as if you have alllll the little dots, and without Fe they are all aligned uniform in a grid, but Fe makes it so that they rearrange, or maybe some get bolded, and others become tiny... something like that?

    Also, "value" is different from "meaning", right? As in Fe gives value but not meaning... Those are 2 slightly different sorts of providing "richness" I mean (In the context of my dual SLE I am trying to separate the two..)

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    Quote Originally Posted by WhatYeahOK View Post
    This might help, I have an LSI friend and I've noticed he schedules Fe things with family. There is golfing, and movie watching, and his things, that are separated from overarching Fe themes/things.

    It's like to have a calendar on the wall, and you put X on the dates for Fe schedules.

    Once time is up, you know it.

    As far as our interactions there is commraderie and humor and deep talk sometimes. His wife is EIE not very extraverted type. More thinky type, with analogies, unlike my mother in your other thread.

    His Fe looks thinky Fe. It's solving things but there is warmth still. It's just measured out. One hour intervals

    Hope this helps.
    Scheduling in the Fe, haha.

    WDYM "once time is up"

    I don't wanna schedule Se, just gimme 24/7 xx

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    My type is LII and after I studied Jung and Socionics, I started to realize how Fe Suggestive affected me. It's hard to describe it specifically, but the atmosphere is very good when I interact with Fe ego types. I really enjoyed talking with them. I also really like poetry and music with strong or dramatic emotional expressions.

    Normally, I am very introverted, both in the office and at home. But when I see literature with strong emotions, I can be influenced by them, and I can even read them with very strong emotion. However, I have a hard time generating strong emotions myself, and my words are usually as cold as a computer.

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    A related addition is that many people may think that the alpha type represents a certain political ideology, and thus assume that most people with radical ideas belong to the beta quadra. I think this approach is undesirable. In my view, Fe suggestive makes it possible for public sentiment to find a path to influence LII. Of course, the LII's Ti-Leading will suppress his Fe-Suggestive. Therefore, in general, LIIs will be calm and will appear to be hardly inflamed by emotions, and they will have very independent views on issues. However, it seems to me that it is entirely possible for an LII to be stirred up by a certain public mood in society, which would then have some subconscious effect on his Ti and Ne.

    Aushra typed Robespierre as LII, while Gulenko thinks he is EIE. Gulenko typed quite a lot of thinkers with certain political views as EIE, and in my opinion the reliability of such a judgment is very doubtful. I don't know Pobespierre very well, so I can't make a definite judgment. However, I do think people's stereotypes about quadras are overwhelmingly wrong. I personally don't see any strong relations between quadra and ideology.

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    Well I find Fi a bit hard to read. Like a guessing game of who likes who. Fe is much more direct in my experience.

    I don't know what it feels like. Compared to what? I don't think I feel anything special around it, it's very in the moment. But when an Fe leading type feels benevolent towards me, I feel it and I feel like openly extending the sentiment back. Some SEEs and IEEs can also seem open in their feelings but there are shades to them I don't understand, and it often feels like relations with them are short-lived.


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    In immature Fe-seeking in LSIs, it’s childish provocation to piss off as many people as possible.
    More sane Fe-seeking, seems more like witty repartee to amp up the mood.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CR400AF View Post
    A related addition is that many people may think that the alpha type represents a certain political ideology, and thus assume that most people with radical ideas belong to the beta quadra. I think this approach is undesirable. In my view, Fe suggestive makes it possible for public sentiment to find a path to influence LII. Of course, the LII's Ti-Leading will suppress his Fe-Suggestive. Therefore, in general, LIIs will be calm and will appear to be hardly inflamed by emotions, and they will have very independent views on issues. However, it seems to me that it is entirely possible for an LII to be stirred up by a certain public mood in society, which would then have some subconscious effect on his Ti and Ne.

    Aushra typed Robespierre as LII, while Gulenko thinks he is EIE. Gulenko typed quite a lot of thinkers with certain political views as EIE, and in my opinion the reliability of such a judgment is very doubtful. I don't know Robespierre very well, so I can't make a definite judgment. However, I do think people's stereotypes about quadras are overwhelmingly wrong. I personally don't see any strong relations between quadra and ideology.

    What do you think about this speech he gave at the Constituent Assembly in June 22 1791 ?

     
    The news having been brought to Athens that citizens had been condemned to death in the city of Argos, people ran to the temples, where the gods were called upon to turn Athenians away from such cruel and dire thoughts. I come to ask, not the gods, but legislators — who should be the organs and the interpreters of the eternal laws that the divinity dictated to men — to erase from the code of the French the blood laws that command judicial murders, and that their morals and their new constitution reject. I want to prove to them: 1- that the death penalty is essentially unjust and, 2- that it isn’t the most repressive of penalties and that it multiplies crimes more than it prevents them.

    Outside of civil society, if a bitter enemy makes an attempt on my life or, pushed away twenty times, he returns again to ravage the field that I cultivated with my own hands; since I have only my individual strength to oppose to his I must either perish or kill him, and the law of natural defense justifies and approves me. But in society, when the force of all is armed against only one, what principle of justice could authorize it to kill him? What necessity can absolve it? A victor who kills his captive enemies is called a barbarian! A grown man who kills a child that he could disarm and punish seems to us a monster! An accused man condemned by society is nothing else for it but a defeated and powerless enemy. Before it, he is weaker than a child before a grown man.

    Thus, in the eyes of truth and justice these scenes of death that it orders with so much ceremony, are nothing but cowardly assassinations, nothing but solemn crimes committed not by individuals but by entire nations using legal forms. However cruel, however extravagant the laws, do not be surprised: they are the work of a few tyrants, they are the chains with which they weigh down the human race, they are the arms with which they subjugate it, they were written in blood. It isn’t permitted to put to death a Roman citizen; this was the law the people passed. But Scylla was victorious and said: All those who bore arms against me are worthy of death. Octavian and his companions in crime confirmed this law.

    It was a crime worthy of death under Tiberius to praise Brutus. Caligula condemned to death those who were so sacrilegious as to undress before the image of the emperor. Once tyranny invented the crime of lèse-majesté — which were actions either indifferent or heroic — who could have dared to think that it merited a penalty more gentle than death without rendering himself guilty of lèse-majesté?

    When fanaticism, born of the monstrous union of ignorance and despotism, invented in its turn the crime of divine lèse-majesté, when it conceived in its delirium the project of avenging god himself, was it not necessary that it offer him blood, and that they bring him down to the level of the monsters who said they were his image?

    The death penalty is necessary, say the partisans of ancient and barbarous routine. Without it there is no brake strong enough for crime. Who told you this? Have you calculated all the gears by which penal laws can act on human sensibility? Alas, before death how much physical and moral pain can man endure?

    The desire to live cedes before pride, the most imperious of all the passions that master the heart of man. The most terrible of all punishments for social man is opprobrium, is the overwhelming sight of public execration. When the legislator can strike the citizen in so many sensitive places and in so many ways, why would he reduce himself to employing the death penalty? Punishments aren’t imposed to torment the guilty, but in order to prevent crime by the fear of incurring them.

    The legislator who prefers death and atrocious penalties to the gentler means in his power outrages public feeling and weakens the moral sentiment among the people he governs; like a clumsy preceptor who, by the frequent use of cruel punishments, stupefies and degrades the soul of his student; he wears out and weakens the springs of government by wanting to wind them up too strongly.

    The legislator who establishes this penalty renounces the salutary principle that the must effective way to repress crimes is to adapt the punishment to the character of the different passions that produce it, and to punish them, so to say, by themselves. It confounds all ideas, it troubles all relations, and openly contradicts the goal of penal laws.

    The death penalty is necessary, you say. If this is true, then why have several peoples done without it? By what fatality were these people the wisest, the happiest and the freest? If the death penalty is the most apt to prevent great crimes, then they should then have been most rare among the peoples who adopted and used it. But the facts are precisely the contrary. Witness Japan: the death penalty and tortures are nowhere more widely used, and nowhere are crimes so frequent and so atrocious. One might almost say that the Japanese want to dispute in ferocity the barbaric laws that outrage and irritate them. Did the Greek republics, where penalties were moderate and where the death penalty was either infinitely rare or absolutely unknown, offer more crime and less virtue than the countries governed by blood laws? Do you think that Rome was soiled with more crimes when in the days of its glory, the Porcian Laws wiped out the severe laws carried out by kings and decimvirs, than it was under Scylla, who revived them, and under the emperors, who carried their rigor to a point of excess worthy of their infamous tyranny. Has Russia been in turmoil since the despot who governs it entirely suppressed the death penalty, as if by this act of humanity and philosophy he wanted to expiate the crime of holding millions of men in the yoke of absolute power?

    Listen to the voice of justice and reason. It cries out to you that human judgements are never certain enough to justify a society of men subject to error dealing death to another man. Even if you could imagine the most perfect judicial order, even if you had found the most upright and enlightened judges, there would still remain some room for error or caution. Why forbid yourselves the means of repairing them? Why condemn yourselves to the inability to lend a helping hand to oppressed innocence? What do sterile regrets, illusory reparations matter to a vain shadow, to insensible ash? They are the sad testimony of the barbaric temerity of your penal laws. Take from a man the possibility to expiate his crime by repentance or acts of virtue; pitilessly close off to him any return to virtue, self-esteem, rush his descent, so to speak, into the tomb still covered by the recent stain of his crime is, in my eyes, the most horrible refinement in cruelty.

    The first obligation of a legislator is to form and preserve public morals, the source of all freedom, source of all social happiness. When in running to a particular goal he turns away from this general and essential goal he commits the most vulgar and dire of errors. The king must thus present to the people the purest model of justice and reason. If in place of this powerful, calm and moderate severity that should characterize it they place anger and vengeance; if they spill human blood that they could spare and that they have no right to spread; if they spread out before the people cruel scenes and cadavers wounded by torture, it then alters in the hearts of citizens the ideas of the just and the unjust; they plant the seed in the midst of society of ferocious prejudices that will produce others in their turn. Man is no longer for man so sacred an object: we have a less grand idea of his dignity when public authority puts his life at risk. The idea of murder inspires less fear when the law itself gives the example and the spectacle. The horror of crime is diminished when it is punished by another crime. Do not confuse the effectiveness of a penalty with the excess of severity: the one is absolutely opposed to the other. Everything seconds moderate laws; everything conspires against cruel laws.

    It has been observed that in free countries crime was more rare and penal laws more gentle. All ideas hold together. Free countries are those where the rights of man are respected and where, consequently, the laws are just. Where they offend humanity by an excess of rigor this is a proof that the dignity of man is not known there, that that of the citizen doesn’t exist. It is a proof that the legislator is nothing but a master who commands slaves and who pitilessly punishes them according to his whim. I thus conclude that the death penalty should be abrogated.



    Source

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    Normally my emotional state is indifferent or a bit gloomy, with some Fi role added to sustain a minimal contact with people.
    But I am not interested to interact for long in this mode, because it's exhausting and I don't care that much of other people, except the few who have interesting insights and are not boring like most.


    Getting positive Fe makes me warmer, so less indifferent and more involved, it can sometimes encourage me to put into action some thoughts.
    I am using less Fi role and falling more into a Ti-Fe dynamic.
    It's a lot more noticeable in 1 on 1, where it feels like you can tell your thoughts, which are otherwise concealed to most, because they would probably think you are insane, and you don't get the feeling they give a fuck about it to begin with.
    It can help me being less serious at the same time, Fe being more the fun side of life, it helps to relieve built tension kept internalized and to help to let go of some of the "Ti control system".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sol View Post
    This is the most childish function.

    For Fe
    Higher need to get external info about what is good/decent and bad/wrong (in "objective", social values sense), what is a basis for joy or sorrow. To see and accept emotions of other people related to such assignments.
    This helps to have a motivation to an activity, to support better emotional state, arise self acceptance (when doing that "decent"), to feel the life as having more of meaning.



    This would be physical care (S), not emotional one (F).
    Sol being a bigot, again. Shocker.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Finaplex View Post
    Sol being a bigot, again. Shocker.
    I think he's cute.

    He's like a suspicious old guard dog who growls a lot but doesn't bite.

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    An example of EIE (eng autosubs avalaible) who tells what he likes (much of Fe with Se value): heroic, "steel romantism", overpowering, oblation for higher task, etc. something great and decent.
    It's what he'd wanted to write about in his novels. What attracts and motivates Ti types.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sol View Post
    An example of EIE (eng autosubs avalaible) who tells what he likes (much of Fe with Se value): heroic, "steel romantism", overpowering, oblation for higher task, etc. something great and decent.
    It's what he'd wanted to write about in his novels. What attracts and motivates Ti types.
    He def seems to value Fe and Se. Loud, emphasizing and moving about with fist in the air. With my unvalued Fe and Se I feel every bone in my body telling this guy to "sit down and shuuuut uuuup already. geez" lol.

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    I've tried to think about how to answer this better.

    I often don't like or get tired when I'm around other people because I don't know what to feel. Not that I feel pressured to express what feelings I have, which I imagine is what Fe PoLR people feel, but I don't know how to emotionally orient myself to things and can't do it without outside help. Is life full of wonder? Is life depressing? I feel like I can't develop an emotional attitude about that or anything else. Unless someone else expresses one, and then I can "get" it and respond. But if it's not expressed then I don't know what to do or how to relate to people. All I know how to do is rely on Ne; to some extent I can try to make a goofy persona and joke around to try to elicit reactions/Fe from people. People who are good with Fe save me from an uncomfortable situation.

    Mostly I "feel" in the Jungian/Socionical sense only when around other people and can pick up on their attitudes. Left to my own devices I can't justify any particular emotional attitude, but being with someone else "justifies" and "permits" it. This seems vitally important; it feels like I'm only human at these times. When I'm alone it's like I'm an animal or robot, just taking care of the necessities of life but otherwise doing and being absolutely nothing of any value.

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    Like you want the other person to be gay while you be the logical and stern straight one.

    By 'gay' I mean the original definition of the word to mean happy and shit. Gay like in the 'Wednesday's child is full of woe' poem, not gay as in 'he likes dick'

    Even if you wiped out all male on male b**fvcking, Fe would still be the gayest function. =p

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    There is a lot of truth in that first sentence^



    Black & white is a shallow divide, division is the color that multiplies

    Taking things at face value is good only for a spell

    To experience is simple, to explain is divine

    Hearts of stone are a dead giveaway: no movement




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    Quote Originally Posted by Warm Soapy Water View Post
    Like you want the other person to be gay while you be the logical and stern straight one.

    By 'gay' I mean the original definition of the word to mean happy and shit. Gay like in the 'Wednesday's child is full of woe' poem, not gay as in 'he likes dick'

    Even if you wiped out all male on male b**fvcking, Fe would still be the gayest function. =p
    What about don we now our gay apparel? This way, there's also gay apparel for people to don.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Warm Soapy Water View Post
    Like you want the other person to be gay while you be the logical and stern straight one.

    By 'gay' I mean the original definition of the word to mean happy and shit. Gay like in the 'Wednesday's child is full of woe' poem, not gay as in 'he likes dick'

    Even if you wiped out all male on male b**fvcking, Fe would still be the gayest function. =p
    Fe is so girliepop, fr fr. It's the yassified IE. Let's see what the logical bussy is all about.
    “I want the following word: splendor, splendor is fruit in all its succulence, fruit without sadness. I want vast distances. My savage intuition of myself.”
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    Quote Originally Posted by FreelancePoliceman View Post
    I've tried to think about how to answer this better.

    I often don't like or get tired when I'm around other people because I don't know what to feel. Not that I feel pressured to express what feelings I have, which I imagine is what Fe PoLR people feel, but I don't know how to emotionally orient myself to things and can't do it without outside help. Is life full of wonder? Is life depressing? I feel like I can't develop an emotional attitude about that or anything else. Unless someone else expresses one, and then I can "get" it and respond. But if it's not expressed then I don't know what to do or how to relate to people. All I know how to do is rely on Ne; to some extent I can try to make a goofy persona and joke around to try to elicit reactions/Fe from people. People who are good with Fe save me from an uncomfortable situation.

    Mostly I "feel" in the Jungian/Socionical sense only when around other people and can pick up on their attitudes. Left to my own devices I can't justify any particular emotional attitude, but being with someone else "justifies" and "permits" it. This seems vitally important; it feels like I'm only human at these times. When I'm alone it's like I'm an animal or robot, just taking care of the necessities of life but otherwise doing and being absolutely nothing of any value.
    This was very nicely articulated, thank you

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    Quote Originally Posted by FreelancePoliceman View Post
    When I'm alone it's like I'm an animal or robot, just taking care of the necessities of life but otherwise doing and being absolutely nothing of any value.
    Animals, at least mamals, should not differ from humans in principle mind contents. They also have behavior besides direct tasks to stay alive. Have an imagination, emotions, play games, do entertainment, social needs, long time memory, see dreams.
    They may solve tasks which need several steps. Even some birds may this.
    There is communicative problem to understand an animal. This makes an illusion: there is nothing if we see nothing or when see what can't understand as meaningful. The same problem is to allow him to understand us, where appears another possible illusion that an animal is stupid or too different.
    Take, for example, two humans. One lives in wild amazon tribe. Other has uni education. Then they try to talk. The both may suspect each other as idiots. As the culture is different, language is different. While minds and IQ potential mb close. For other kinds the same problem exists but in much more degree. We understand a few about what happens in minds of animals.
    Taking the possibility to solve complex practical tasks by logics - they have good imagination. While this means - they have not so primitive minds as it seems to humans. And may differ in life perception lesser in something, than we suppose.

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    Quote Originally Posted by godslave View Post

    What do you think about this speech he gave at the Constituent Assembly in June 22 1791 ?

     
    The news having been brought to Athens that citizens had been condemned to death in the city of Argos, people ran to the temples, where the gods were called upon to turn Athenians away from such cruel and dire thoughts. I come to ask, not the gods, but legislators — who should be the organs and the interpreters of the eternal laws that the divinity dictated to men — to erase from the code of the French the blood laws that command judicial murders, and that their morals and their new constitution reject. I want to prove to them: 1- that the death penalty is essentially unjust and, 2- that it isn’t the most repressive of penalties and that it multiplies crimes more than it prevents them.

    Outside of civil society, if a bitter enemy makes an attempt on my life or, pushed away twenty times, he returns again to ravage the field that I cultivated with my own hands; since I have only my individual strength to oppose to his I must either perish or kill him, and the law of natural defense justifies and approves me. But in society, when the force of all is armed against only one, what principle of justice could authorize it to kill him? What necessity can absolve it? A victor who kills his captive enemies is called a barbarian! A grown man who kills a child that he could disarm and punish seems to us a monster! An accused man condemned by society is nothing else for it but a defeated and powerless enemy. Before it, he is weaker than a child before a grown man.

    Thus, in the eyes of truth and justice these scenes of death that it orders with so much ceremony, are nothing but cowardly assassinations, nothing but solemn crimes committed not by individuals but by entire nations using legal forms. However cruel, however extravagant the laws, do not be surprised: they are the work of a few tyrants, they are the chains with which they weigh down the human race, they are the arms with which they subjugate it, they were written in blood. It isn’t permitted to put to death a Roman citizen; this was the law the people passed. But Scylla was victorious and said: All those who bore arms against me are worthy of death. Octavian and his companions in crime confirmed this law.

    It was a crime worthy of death under Tiberius to praise Brutus. Caligula condemned to death those who were so sacrilegious as to undress before the image of the emperor. Once tyranny invented the crime of lèse-majesté — which were actions either indifferent or heroic — who could have dared to think that it merited a penalty more gentle than death without rendering himself guilty of lèse-majesté?

    When fanaticism, born of the monstrous union of ignorance and despotism, invented in its turn the crime of divine lèse-majesté, when it conceived in its delirium the project of avenging god himself, was it not necessary that it offer him blood, and that they bring him down to the level of the monsters who said they were his image?

    The death penalty is necessary, say the partisans of ancient and barbarous routine. Without it there is no brake strong enough for crime. Who told you this? Have you calculated all the gears by which penal laws can act on human sensibility? Alas, before death how much physical and moral pain can man endure?

    The desire to live cedes before pride, the most imperious of all the passions that master the heart of man. The most terrible of all punishments for social man is opprobrium, is the overwhelming sight of public execration. When the legislator can strike the citizen in so many sensitive places and in so many ways, why would he reduce himself to employing the death penalty? Punishments aren’t imposed to torment the guilty, but in order to prevent crime by the fear of incurring them.

    The legislator who prefers death and atrocious penalties to the gentler means in his power outrages public feeling and weakens the moral sentiment among the people he governs; like a clumsy preceptor who, by the frequent use of cruel punishments, stupefies and degrades the soul of his student; he wears out and weakens the springs of government by wanting to wind them up too strongly.

    The legislator who establishes this penalty renounces the salutary principle that the must effective way to repress crimes is to adapt the punishment to the character of the different passions that produce it, and to punish them, so to say, by themselves. It confounds all ideas, it troubles all relations, and openly contradicts the goal of penal laws.

    The death penalty is necessary, you say. If this is true, then why have several peoples done without it? By what fatality were these people the wisest, the happiest and the freest? If the death penalty is the most apt to prevent great crimes, then they should then have been most rare among the peoples who adopted and used it. But the facts are precisely the contrary. Witness Japan: the death penalty and tortures are nowhere more widely used, and nowhere are crimes so frequent and so atrocious. One might almost say that the Japanese want to dispute in ferocity the barbaric laws that outrage and irritate them. Did the Greek republics, where penalties were moderate and where the death penalty was either infinitely rare or absolutely unknown, offer more crime and less virtue than the countries governed by blood laws? Do you think that Rome was soiled with more crimes when in the days of its glory, the Porcian Laws wiped out the severe laws carried out by kings and decimvirs, than it was under Scylla, who revived them, and under the emperors, who carried their rigor to a point of excess worthy of their infamous tyranny. Has Russia been in turmoil since the despot who governs it entirely suppressed the death penalty, as if by this act of humanity and philosophy he wanted to expiate the crime of holding millions of men in the yoke of absolute power?

    Listen to the voice of justice and reason. It cries out to you that human judgements are never certain enough to justify a society of men subject to error dealing death to another man. Even if you could imagine the most perfect judicial order, even if you had found the most upright and enlightened judges, there would still remain some room for error or caution. Why forbid yourselves the means of repairing them? Why condemn yourselves to the inability to lend a helping hand to oppressed innocence? What do sterile regrets, illusory reparations matter to a vain shadow, to insensible ash? They are the sad testimony of the barbaric temerity of your penal laws. Take from a man the possibility to expiate his crime by repentance or acts of virtue; pitilessly close off to him any return to virtue, self-esteem, rush his descent, so to speak, into the tomb still covered by the recent stain of his crime is, in my eyes, the most horrible refinement in cruelty.

    The first obligation of a legislator is to form and preserve public morals, the source of all freedom, source of all social happiness. When in running to a particular goal he turns away from this general and essential goal he commits the most vulgar and dire of errors. The king must thus present to the people the purest model of justice and reason. If in place of this powerful, calm and moderate severity that should characterize it they place anger and vengeance; if they spill human blood that they could spare and that they have no right to spread; if they spread out before the people cruel scenes and cadavers wounded by torture, it then alters in the hearts of citizens the ideas of the just and the unjust; they plant the seed in the midst of society of ferocious prejudices that will produce others in their turn. Man is no longer for man so sacred an object: we have a less grand idea of his dignity when public authority puts his life at risk. The idea of murder inspires less fear when the law itself gives the example and the spectacle. The horror of crime is diminished when it is punished by another crime. Do not confuse the effectiveness of a penalty with the excess of severity: the one is absolutely opposed to the other. Everything seconds moderate laws; everything conspires against cruel laws.

    It has been observed that in free countries crime was more rare and penal laws more gentle. All ideas hold together. Free countries are those where the rights of man are respected and where, consequently, the laws are just. Where they offend humanity by an excess of rigor this is a proof that the dignity of man is not known there, that that of the citizen doesn’t exist. It is a proof that the legislator is nothing but a master who commands slaves and who pitilessly punishes them according to his whim. I thus conclude that the death penalty should be abrogated.



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    I haven't studied it in details, it seems to be Ti-Fe valuing. But I can't be sure which one is his leading function though.

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