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    Thumbs down Criticizing Religions

    What made me think of this is recently I have criticized religious Judaism and the aspects of Jewish culture which I consider equivalent to religious Judaism. To some people this just makes me seem horribly Antisemitic, and that is entirely predictable to me, I am just out of curse words to give at this point. I think religious Judaism and its cultural aspects are just horribly bad for Jews and basically a complete slaughterhouse for ethnic Jews, but that is not why anyone is criticizing me. There is always this subtext, that people of a certain ethnicity must have a certain religion and that is the right way for them. Certainly, a lot of people think that way, probably most Jews and most Gentiles at this point, but I think that is a complete fallacy. The Earth is not round for the British and flat for people in Somalia. 2 + 2 does not equal 4 in Japan and 5 in Korea. The moon is not made of rock for Americans and green cheese for the French. People can have distinct cultures without having to adopt some set of propositions about reality that might be actually harmful, which I think almost all religions definitionally are since they are almost all mutually exclusive to each other, and I am aware that the most controversial thing I could do is say that about Judaism in particular. You can call out Scientology every moment, Mormons every day, Christianity quite often whether Catholic or Protestant, Islam starts getting controversial, atheism and agnosticism are up for criticism now that they are popular enough, but apparently saying that maybe religious Judaism is kind of bad for Jews because supporting "the tribe" unconditionally seems to often lead to decisions that benefit not a single individual, and additionally, constantly viewing the world as this irredeemably broken place where the only options are defeatism or forcing people to take "help" they do not want in the form of e.g. social justice activism and (un)popular culture are not good things, especially when the majority of what is called modern Jewish religion does not involve any kind of belief in God whatsoever and is mostly Jews trying to feel more Jewish. I think my own culture and every native religion that tends to be associated with it equally bad, which is literally infinitely bad when one is speaking of the infinite, I do not want to chauvinistically impose on the Jews (or anyone else) at all. But I am not going to treat Judaism as this sacred cow when I think it is harmful to its practioners as well as others. There can absolutely be a distinctly Jewish culture with a correct set of beliefs that isn't this nihilistic "I am going to synagogue even though I don't believe in God because I am Jewish" thing, just as much as there can be an American culture that is not based on evangelical Protestantism, mainline Protestantism, Mormonism, or anything that is dumbly and stereotypically considered an "American religion," and there can be an India that is not based on Hinduism, and an England that is not based on Anglicanism or New Atheism. If there is one ultimate truth, the most racist thing anyone can do would be to deny it to anyone based on race, and I, personally, cannot see religion in relativistic or nihilistic terms. Attempting to believe falsehoods out of some kind of perverted pragmatism does not make you feel good, no matter how much anyone might like to claim otherwise.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Coeruleum Blue View Post
    What made me think of this is recently I have criticized religious Judaism and the aspects of Jewish culture which I consider equivalent to religious Judaism. To some people this just makes me seem horribly Antisemitic, and that is entirely predictable to me, I am just out of curse words to give at this point. I think religious Judaism and its cultural aspects are just horribly bad for Jews and basically a complete slaughterhouse for ethnic Jews, but that is not why anyone is criticizing me. There is always this subtext, that people of a certain ethnicity must have a certain religion and that is the right way for them. Certainly, a lot of people think that way, probably most Jews and most Gentiles at this point, but I think that is a complete fallacy. The Earth is not round for the British and flat for people in Somalia. 2 + 2 does not equal 4 in Japan and 5 in Korea. The moon is not made of rock for Americans and green cheese for the French. People can have distinct cultures without having to adopt some set of propositions about reality that might be actually harmful, which I think almost all religions definitionally are since they are almost all mutually exclusive to each other, and I am aware that the most controversial thing I could do is say that about Judaism in particular.
    Are you sure about the bolded? For all human history, most people, perhaps everyone, have harbored irrational beliefs when it comes to ideas of "why things are as they are" or their place in the world. These are usually impossible, e.g. in the existence of gods. If you think this is harmful you need to contend with the fact that this has come about in every culture on earth. What universal need has brought it, and what else are you going to satisfy it with?

    Also -- how do you define harm? If you talk to believers, they don't think their perception of reality is harmful. What makes you think you're a better judge of what's harmful to them than the people supposedly harmed?


    You can call out Scientology every moment, Mormons every day, Christianity quite often whether Catholic or Protestant, Islam starts getting controversial, atheism and agnosticism are up for criticism now that they are popular enough, but apparently saying that maybe religious Judaism is kind of bad for Jews because supporting "the tribe" unconditionally seems to often lead to decisions that benefit not a single individual, and additionally, constantly viewing the world as this irredeemably broken place where the only options are defeatism or forcing people to take "help" they do not want in the form of e.g. social justice activism and (un)popular culture are not good things, especially when the majority of what is called modern Jewish religion does not involve any kind of belief in God whatsoever and is mostly Jews trying to feel more Jewish. I think my own culture and every native religion that tends to be associated with it equally bad, which is literally infinitely bad when one is speaking of the infinite, I do not want to chauvinistically impose on the Jews (or anyone else) at all. But I am not going to treat Judaism as this sacred cow when I think it is harmful to its practioners as well as others. There can absolutely be a distinctly Jewish culture with a correct set of beliefs that isn't this nihilistic "I am going to synagogue even though I don't believe in God because I am Jewish" thing, just as much as there can be an American culture that is not based on evangelical Protestantism, mainline Protestantism, Mormonism, or anything that is dumbly and stereotypically considered an "American religion," and there can be an India that is not based on Hinduism, and an England that is not based on Anglicanism or New Atheism. If there is one ultimate truth, the most racist thing anyone can do would be to deny it to anyone based on race, and I, personally, cannot see religion in relativistic or nihilistic terms. Attempting to believe falsehoods out of some kind of perverted pragmatism does not make you feel good, no matter how much anyone might like to claim otherwise.

    The religion and race of Judaism are close. Racism, especially against Jews, is touchy for obvious reasons. This means different parties can use conversation about the religion to mask what they really mean about the race. In turn what you say about this can be maliciously interpreted as something else. Just exercise discretion re. whom you talk about your dislike of Judaism with, which is probably best to do with anything else political or religious.
    Last edited by FreelancePoliceman; 07-24-2022 at 06:46 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FreelancePoliceman View Post
    Are you sure about the bolded? For all human history, most people, perhaps everyone, have harbored irrational beliefs when it comes to ideas of "why things are as they are" or their place in the world. These are usually impossible, e.g. in the existence of gods. If you think this is harmful you need to contend with the fact that this has come about in every culture on earth. What universal need has brought it, and what else are you going to satisfy it with?

    Also -- how do you define harm? If you talk to believers, they don't think their perception of reality is harmful. What makes you think you're a better judge of what's harmful to them than the people supposedly harmed?





    The religion and race of Judaism are close. Racism, especially against Jews, is touchy for obvious reasons. This means different parties can use conversation about the religion to mask what they really mean about the race. In turn what you say about this can be maliciously interpreted as something else. Just exercise discretion re. whom you talk about your dislike of Judaism with, which is probably best to do with anything else political or religious.
    Sadly, everything is political or religious. Media is political and religious, relationships are political and religious, even eating food is political and religious since religions and also political movements often have a lot to say about that. If you can't talk religion or politics you can't talk anything. I think almost all religions are infinitely harmful. I also agree that Judaism also tends to be considered related to racial Judaism even by Jews, but that is not unique to Jews and Judaism, and I consider it a fallacy whenever it is done. Should white people be considered ethnic and cultural Christians, should Indians be considered ethnic and cultural Hindus, should Japanese be considered ethnic and cultural Shintos? We are relating truth-claims about religion to race, that is the real problem. Modern Jews are quite possibly the main and first exemplars of that, historical "pagans" mostly just believed all the gods were real and picked the ones they wanted to worship. There is probably a reason for that that has nothing much to do with Jews because the only ones who copied it are Christianity, Hinduism, and possibly Islam, and most other religions really are just people worshipping their fathers' Baal (including Shintoism, Confucianism, tribal religions, neopaganism, etc.) and that is equally wrong but different.

    But sadly this public forum is not a great platform for talking about any serious issues that most people won't agree on. It is a socionics forum for talking about socionics, which is sadly both very simplistic and probably mostly false. It's understandable people get bored and inevitably talk politics and religion, but it's also just Fight Club.

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    Religion, like any totalizing and overpowering ideology, can push otherwise-good people to commit bad actions.

    But there is obviously something to be said about its ability to sharpen people's benevolent tendencies. The Christian-leftist journalist Christ Hedges once said that "religion is bad for you if you're a bad person, good for you if you're a good person".

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    Quote Originally Posted by xerx View Post
    Religion, like any totalizing and overpowering ideology, can push otherwise-good people to commit bad actions.

    But there is obviously something to be said about its ability to sharpen people's benevolent tendencies. The Christian-leftist journalist Christ Hedges once said that "religion is bad for you if you're a bad person, good for you if you're a good person".
    “With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil - that takes religion.” - Steven Weinberg

    (although he should perhaps have said faith or superstition instead).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    “With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil - that takes religion.” - Steven Weinberg

    (although he should perhaps have said faith or superstition instead).
    That's probably true. I think even though almost every religion contradicts almost every other religion (I do think there is some room for some religions to be saying the same thing in different ways, but that it is much more limited than the pluralists and universalists tend to think) it's not necessarily all superstition or faith. Especially not superstition. And some people who believe in faiths and superstitions have nothing to do with organized religions or really disorganized religions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Coeruleum Blue View Post
    That's probably true. I think even though almost every religion contradicts almost every other religion (I do think there is some room for some religions to be saying the same thing in different ways, but that it is much more limited than the pluralists and universalists tend to think) it's not necessarily all superstition or faith. Especially not superstition. And some people who believe in faiths and superstitions have nothing to do with organized religions or really disorganized religions.
    Faith/Superstition essentially means believing in things without evidence, or even contrary to evidence - that's why it's so dangerous.

    I should say also that "Good" people could still be coerced or "brainwashed" into doing "evil" things without having erroneous beliefs also.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FreelancePoliceman View Post
    Also -- how do you define harm? If you talk to believers, they don't think their perception of reality is harmful. What makes you think you're a better judge of what's harmful to them than the people supposedly harmed?
    If it impinges on my life, it causes harm based on my standard.

    Many religions are so warped that they consider suffering and death as desirable, so it is certainly true there is no universal standard of what is ultimately harmful.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    Faith/Superstition essentially means believing in things without evidence, or even contrary to evidence - that's why it's so dangerous.

    I should say also that "Good" people could still be coerced or "brainwashed" into doing "evil" things without having erroneous beliefs also.
    I think a lot of religions do have evidence though even without that meaning it is correct, which is the difficult part. Fingerprints at a crime scene are evidence, but it does not mean the person who left those fingerprints there committed the crime. Miracles and religious texts and the like are evidence for religions, but it does not many any of them true (indeed, they cannot all be true, most or all of them must be false, though some might be compatible or different things said the same way.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    If it impinges on my life, it causes harm based on my standard.

    Many religions are so warped that they consider suffering and death as desirable, so it is certainly true there is no universal standard of what is ultimately harmful.
    The latter is the basis on which I would criticize most religions even when people say it makes them happy. Your religion tells you that suffering is desirable (not inevitable, desirable) and you should flagellate yourself and degrade yourself... and that makes you supposedly happy. That is the problem. I do not think things are quite as relativistic as people often say, some forms of masochism are probably acceptable or healthy (for example, just oriented towards physical pain or harmless forms of emotional shock) but not the kinds or degrees I see in most religions (clearly, most religions are not telling you to eat hot sauce and ride roller coasters, they are telling you that you should suffer and you are disgusting.) However, people will do what they want regardless of what I do. I cannot force anyone to be happy who wants to be miserable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Coeruleum Blue View Post
    I think a lot of religions do have evidence though even without that meaning it is correct, which is the difficult part. Fingerprints at a crime scene are evidence, but it does not mean the person who left those fingerprints there committed the crime. Miracles and religious texts and the like are evidence for religions, but it does not many any of them true (indeed, they cannot all be true, most or all of them must be false, though some might be compatible or different things said the same way.)



    The latter is the basis on which I would criticize most religions even when people say it makes them happy. Your religion tells you that suffering is desirable (not inevitable, desirable) and you should flagellate yourself and degrade yourself... and that makes you supposedly happy. That is the problem. I do not think things are quite as relativistic as people often say, some forms of masochism are probably acceptable or healthy (for example, just oriented towards physical pain or harmless forms of emotional shock) but not the kinds or degrees I see in most religions (clearly, most religions are not telling you to eat hot sauce and ride roller coasters, they are telling you that you should suffer and you are disgusting.) However, people will do what they want regardless of what I do. I cannot force anyone to be happy who wants to be miserable.
    Many religions say what happens after you die is infinitely more important than what happens while you are living.

    Many religions say it is acceptable to kill heretics and apostates, presumably because the authors regarded allowing them to live as a worse outcome.

    I regard both as highly destructive.

    It's quite odd when many modern religious people condemn mass killers who supposedly do not follow their religion (or at least their interpretation of it), considering their own religions have condoned and engaged in the same behaviour.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    “With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil - that takes religion.” - Steven Weinberg

    (although he should perhaps have said faith or superstition instead).
    I don't totally disagree, but I think that there is more to the story. Religion exists in a state of flux, as a superposition of both good and bad, and it can both sharpen and dampen either tendency depending on the person & situation. The same ideology that spurs on the destruction of cathedrals is also responsible for building them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by xerx View Post
    I don't totally disagree, but I think that there is more to the story. Religion exists in a state of flux, as a superposition of both good and bad, and it can both sharpen and dampen either tendency depending on the person & situation. The same ideology that spurs on the destruction of cathedrals is also responsible for building them.
    I think all religion (faith, superstition etc.) is bad, but when it is organized, especially so, because that is when it is invariably totalitarian.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    Many religions say what happens after you die is infinitely more important than what happens while you are living.

    Many religions say it is acceptable to kill heretics and apostates, presumably because the authors regarded allowing them to live as a worse outcome.

    I regard both as highly destructive.

    It's quite odd when many modern religious people condemn mass killers who supposedly do not follow their religion (or at least their interpretation of it), considering their own religions have condoned and engaged in the same behaviour.
    I agree with all of that being destructive. Actual popular religious texts say that the goal is to not die, but people don't actually read them. Same with killing heretics and apostates in most cases. People are not that literate, otherwise the world would not be inundated in texting acronyms, misspellings, and typos, and they would actually read their own religious texts instead of keeping up with the Kardashians.

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    The mostly widely acclaimed musical group of all time (so far) tried to find universal values that everybody could agree on.









    However, many religious zealots, especially following ones of the organized variety, see all things that gives people joy in their lives as harmful if it isn't a part of their cult. Basically most culture.

    Last edited by Not A Communist Shill; 07-25-2022 at 01:28 AM.

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    I think it's important to be able to criticize religion and pick it apart to see its flaws, but more so if it's your own.

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    Yeah people should be allowed to talk shit on religion, so long as they aren’t being racist about it. It’s perfectly fine to dislike a religion but not seeing the differences in these demographics is harmful since it’s putting them all into one box. Basically it’s fine to dislike religion but don’t say all people in a religion are like a certain way imo.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    I think all religion (faith, superstition etc.) is bad, but when it is organized, especially so, because that is when it is invariably totalitarian.
    I don't disagree that centralized religion is easily captured by authoritarians.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    The mostly widely acclaimed musical group of all time (so far) tried to find universal values that everybody could agree on.

    ...

    Paul McCartney says he never meant to offend Jews with ‘Hey Jude’

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    I've been atheist-agnostic for years, but the atheism part of that has been growing, as well as my hatred and contempt for religion (because my eyes are increasingly opened to very specific ways that it's destructive).

    Religious people tend to be morally worse than the average person, and the reason I think this happens is that it provides people with a method for feeling too easily "forgiven," to the point where they become dismissive of their own wrongful behaviors. What would eat at their conscience normally, becomes no big deal. I think it also makes yhem more prone to denial of ever doing anything wrong to begin with, and I think that happens because of this perception that sin is so terrible and taboo that they're afraid to admit they've done something that can be seen as sinful, which is seen by some religious folks as literally worse than the end of the world (hell for eternity).

    I think if people were to simply develop kids' empathy and self-esteem (through parenting skills), it would be far more effective than religion is at making the world better. With that, one is able to empathize with others enough to think about how they're treating them and try to avoid wronging others, but also give themselves enough empathy to have understanding, patience, and forgiveness, for themselves.
    Last edited by Fluffy Princess Unicorn; 12-22-2022 at 02:07 AM.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Lunacy View Post
    I think it also makes yhem more prone to denial of ever doing anything wrong to begin with, and I think that happens because of this perception that sin is so terrible and taboo that they're afraid to admit they've done something that can be seen as sinful, which is seen by some religious folks as literally worse than the end of the world (hell for eternity).
    I think what I explained in my above post is also the reason religious people are usually the biggest fucking hypocrites. "Eternal damnation" is meant to scare people away from sin and into obedience, but it often merely prevents people from ever facing the fact that they've done something "wrong" to begin with. They end up being self-righteous and virtue-signaling types of people who preach about stuff they won't admit they sometimes fail to do. Since they won't admit it, the behavior goes on and on, never changes.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    It's quite odd when many modern religious people condemn mass killers who supposedly do not follow their religion (or at least their interpretation of it), considering their own religions have condoned and engaged in the same behaviour.
    I think there's typically this underlying view that "authority" is an exception to the rule. "God kills all firstborns in Exodus, but God says don't murder; God is not a murderer because He is God, we cannot question Him, He is always just, etc."

    This is one of the reasons I'm so strongly against parents saying "because I said so" as a reason for everything. It teaches people to obey authority, without questioning it or whether it's in the wrong, and as long as the authority figure is the one taking the responsibility for the actions, then it is permissible. If people thought for themselves more, I think the Milgram experiment would've gone much differently.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Lunacy View Post
    I think what I explained in my above post is also the reason religious people are usually the biggest fucking hypocrites. "Eternal damnation" is meant to scare people away from sin and into obedience, but it often merely prevents people from ever facing the fact that they've done something "wrong" to begin with. They end up being self-righteous and virtue-signaling types of people who preach about stuff they won't admit they sometimes fail to do. Since they won't admit it, the behavior goes on and on, never changes.
    Honestly, most of this seems Christian-specific. Often, say, Judaism and Islam really do require you to follow rules without any kind of get-out-of-jail-free card, and Christianity tends to be the one that gives people an inferiority complex compared to say Buddhism and Hinduism where people run around literally saying that they're Buddha or God as a more normative thing rather than being a more marginal interpretation. I always dislike arguments about religion that rely solely on the impact of religion to make a point, because they seem like postmodern arguments that disregard the idea of truth. Additionally, moralism in the name of anti-religion tends to feel as annoying as moralism in the name of religion. It's good not to be a bad person, but should everything be viewed predominantly through the lens of morality in the first place? This feels like what caused witch burnings, censorship of artistic works, house arrests and murders of scientists and mathematicians, and all the major problems associated with institutional religion going haywire in the first place. Sometimes you just have to say that beauty is truth and truth is beauty and move on or you get bogged down in completely inane legalism which very instinctively seems wrong.

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    This seems to be a waste of time, criticizing a system that is already known as a fraud due to its brainwashing method.
    Georg Wilhelm Friedrich Hegel: "The history of the world is none other than the progress of the consciousness of freedom."

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    It depends of your geographical situation and the level of your survival instincts...

    I personally prefer to distinguish Spirituality from Religion. The former is a survival Imperative and an archaic correlate of Human's unique capacity of expressing symbolic thinking. The latter is something more elaborated and structured.

    Before Renaissance and the enlightenment period (Les idées des Lumières) almost the entirety of humanity believed in some kind of afterlife (with or without a grand Narrative à la Mesopotamian Abrahamic Religions). That was the reality of the world. Gods, Ghosts Demons of all kind were real no doubt about it. For instance, Ancient Greeks believed religiously in Homer's work. They thought those Epic and poetic stories were some kind of Historical facts not fictions.Those were serious stuff. That's faith and this idea of the impact of fantasy on the imagination of people and the collective unconscious in times when reality itself seemed ruled by higher powers. The truth is that habits die hard, both the good and the bad ones.

    It is interesting to note the correlation between the establishment of structured religions with the invention of writing. It's true for Sumerian and Assyrian (Mesopotamia), it's true for Ancient Egypt religions and it's true for Pre-columbian civilizations. Writing and reading was one of the privilege of ancient scribes who were the archaic incarnation of the priest always associated with some kind of religious powerful institution. Christian Monks were very busy writing stuff inside the comfort and security of the walls of their temples until the Invention of printing and the first printed Bible in 1454 (yesterday !). That knowledge was and still is indeed a power. During the Dark Age and up to recent Time all the Christian rites were done in Latin a language that most ordinary people barely understood. Note that It's was often the case throughout history that the official (administrative) language(s) was of higher nobility than the popular language of the people. The reason being that Great Empire like Rome were formed of a number of ethnic groups which had their own language and culture and Latin was already considered like an international language (of Business and diplomacy).

    Criticising religions and believes back then was at least as blasphematory as it is today in some countries. Of course most of those critics were articulated around an attempt to impose the veracity of their own faith over that of the infidels, as it is today... Freedom of speech which allows anyone to criticize religions regardless of his own beliefs (not believing is a belief) is a luxury not everyone can afford. As I said, it depends on where you are and to whom you speak imho.

    Anyway, sorry for the rambling and note that I don't know what I'm talking about !
    Last edited by godslave; 12-22-2022 at 07:02 AM.

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    One of the most off-putting things I ever heard from a certain religious community was probably about what happens when you're in heaven. You're basically up there doing nothing to please yourself, completely revolving around serving and worshiping God according to their POV.

    Yeah, because being a mindless drone is what I've always wanted.


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    I'm living with a landlord who became all judgmental and self-righteous about the amount of internet I use. He called me an idolater and said that the reason I don't believe in God is because I don't want to give up my idolatry (the internet). Mind you, I work from home online, and he was made aware of this before I ever moved in. When he refused to let me use the internet service anymore, he attributed my anger to idolatry (rather than being able to comprehend why someone who uses the internet for income would be angry when it's revoked, when that was part of the package when moving in).

    Honestly, just about every religious person I've ever met was this idiotic.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Lunacy View Post
    I'm living with a landlord who became all judgmental and self-righteous about the amount of internet I use. He called me an idolater and said that the reason I don't believe in God is because I don't want to give up my idolatry (the internet). Mind you, I work from home online, and he was made aware of this before I ever moved in. When he refused to let me use the internet service anymore, he attributed my anger to idolatry (rather than being able to comprehend why someone who uses the internet for income would be angry when it's revoked, when that was part of the package when moving in).

    Honestly, just about every religious person I've ever met was this idiotic.
    That sounds extremely annoying, but also, can't you get your own wi-fi if you need to?

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    How is it that religions claim to be persecuted by society, then turn around and systematically discriminate against non-religious people? When you say you're a Christian, it's automatically assumed that you're a decent person where I live. Contrarily, when you say you don't believe, you are silently viewed/labeled as a worse person who would be more capable of character flaws. I don't think I've ever in my life met anyone who lies more than my “Christian” landlord. I'm not even exaggerating by saying almost every sentence that comes out of his mouth is a lie. I, on the other hand, rarely lie. I do sometimes, like everyone, but generally it's about small things, like "I have a headache" instead of "I'm experiencing dissociative amnesia that you wouldn't understand a thing about." Yet, I'm considered by most people to be the asshole just because I'm Atheist-Agnostic. I'm the one who is doubted more in court.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Metaphor View Post
    This seems to be a waste of time, criticizing a system that is already known as a fraud due to its brainwashing method.
    I quite appreciate it, actually. It's nice for venting about religion, at very least.


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    Churches appear to help the needy, the poor, etc. but they're actually just indoctrinating people who seem vulnerable in order to promote their church services. Like...homeless shelters force you to attend church in order to have a roof over your head. If that was the other way around (a mandatory meeting for teaching atheism), Christians/Catholics would be calling it the work of the devil. They don't want it done to them, but they want to do it to others.

    Typical religion: double standards.


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    Hmm there's many directions I could take this conversation. Work that 3D Ne, you bitches!

    I think it's probably normal/predictable that those who are the worst ethically get attracted to religion as they need it the most but are unwilling to behave in a truly righteous way. I don't think you can slaughter a bunch of babies and then be like 'but I'm really really sorry God!' - there's a tempo and consistency to these things, but a lot of ppl view religion in the eyes of Ne instead of Ni.

    I don't think that means righteousness or God or "goodness" doesn't exist in the first place though. It's just predictably and woefully polluted by self-righteous holier-than-thou assholes aka the Pharisees. It doesn't mean that some things that are bad for you aren't sins. Maybe homosexuality really is a sin, but I can't buy that logically considering the way I've seen most heterosexual people behave. Like when the Starr Commonwealth social worker tried to play mediator with me and say "It's okay that you are homosexual but you have to understand that people will be morally against it" in a stern and bitchy way - when most str8 ppl I met were just seflish and cruel bullying assholes. If they really were kind and selfless and straight at the same time and it all aligned neatly I maybe could have believed it, but I don't. Anyways- those who cry out the most for God probably need God the most- those who already have Him in our hearts can play mini golf with the athiests without going into annoying preachy mode. Sorry I'm being kind of basic, but I'm tired.

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    If evangelicals want to be religious, I think they should actually be religious, instead of going to church and singing the Grinch song or Great Expectations or whatever. If they did that, they would have more of a grounds to criticize other religions on. "You're going to Hell for going to Mass, but we're going to Heaven for singing about Little Orphan Annie and Mariah Carey in church!" Makes no sense. These are the people who are deciding on the wars though, to make sure all the world has the Super Bowl and Britney Spears and beer and pork and MSG. It's quite stupid.

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    Capitalistic greed, consuming more, more, more, more, always wanting, until it's just this black hole that consumes its own self. Combined with conservative Christian religion. A society full of those who fall for the "Prosperity Gospel"...

    Come, chase the American Dream through a sense of entitlement to materialistic divine blessings, conceived by hypocritical self-righteousness! God has become the improved Santa Claus 2.0! New branding, same traditional product! Now sold under the guise called Jesus Christ! Believe and be blessed with materialistic riches, and prosper in all endeavors! Those who don't believe are wicked, and it is only the wicked who hunger or suffer! Now sold in American Individualism flavor: the nonbeliever's suffering is caused by his own sins, it is his well-deserved punishment! Tithing is the path to tasting immaculate success!


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    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Lunacy View Post
    Capitalistic greed, consuming more, more, more, more, always wanting, until it's just this black hole that consumes its own self. Combined with conservative Christian religion. A society full of those who fall for the "Prosperity Gospel"...

    Come, chase the American Dream through a sense of entitlement to materialistic divine blessings, conceived by hypocritical self-righteousness! God has become the improved Santa Claus 2.0! New branding, same traditional product! Now sold under the guise called Jesus Christ! Believe and be blessed with materialistic riches, and prosper in all endeavors! Those who don't believe are wicked, and it is only the wicked who hunger or suffer! Now sold in American Individualism flavor: the nonbeliever's suffering is caused by his own sins, it is his well-deserved punishment! Tithing is the path to tasting immaculate success!
    You've voiced my visceral hatred of the "megachurches" and their "priests" like Joel Olsten and... damnit I forget the name of the fat fuck but he goes on and on about how awesome Jews and Israel and the like are. Both are always essentially demanding their followers to swipe their credit cards harder than hopelessly addicted gatcha game fanatics.

    If those dumb fucks (and I will direct some hate towards their followers because such a failure of basic logic demands it) fall for it that's on them. They are all pre-millennial dispensationalists. They think the "rapture" will carry them up to heaven the instant the end of days well and truly commences and that said end of days is within their lifetimes. That is to say, they foolishly believe they will never have to experience death and that they will likewise bypass both the particular and final judgements along the way to the beatific vision.

    To spell it out for these damn near Gnostic-tier Heretics let's just ask one simple question. If you believe that Jesus is the Christ and God has risen him from the dead and that he was both fully human and also fully divine, than how in the name of all things logical could you ever think that you'd get out of this life suffering anything less than he did? Christ, God, died. In all the ways our finite minds would consider it. Brain death. Cessation of heartbeat. If the literal incarnation of the infinite died on this finite plane what the hell makes anyone with even the intelligence of a doorknob believe they'll get around that?

    There are four final things any faithful Catholic can and must consider upon their final hours. Death, Judgement, Hell, and Heaven. Death is there for damn good reason. You are gonna die. Even Christ died. God, the infinite, died on the cross to satisfy the demands of infinite justice as only an infinite being can make infinite restitution. By his mercy we won't feel the truly unimaginable pain he did upon the cross despite the fact we deserve all that and more.

    But we're still gonna have to die. Even if we go full materialistic there's no escaping the heat death of the universe. Even the black holes will eventually evaporate and all the endless stars will settle into spheres of iron at absolute zero temperature. This finite universe is, well, finite. Heaven and Hell, however, are infinite and eternal...

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    Quote Originally Posted by End View Post
    But we're still gonna have to die. Even if we go full materialistic there's no escaping the heat death of the universe. Even the black holes will eventually evaporate and all the endless stars will settle into spheres of iron at absolute zero temperature. This finite universe is, well, finite. Heaven and Hell, however, are infinite and eternal...
    What about the New Earth? The Universe probably won't even have a heat death, just the Big Crunch. I'm not an astronomer, but I know enough about physics to know a heat death is far from certain. New matter being generated "spontaneously" is more likely than a physical heat death of everything. It would still be the same earthly sphere of existence with new matter in it as opposed to being Heaven or Hell because there would still be things like laws of physics, bodies, etc. It wouldn't be a bunch of people with angel wings floating around playing harps, singing in choirs, and getting whatever they wished for that's non-sinful at God's request. Honestly, I tend to think, if people float around, it'll be because we figured it out. We will have inherited the Earth once we understand it enough to float around and even reach to Heaven with our understanding, and even that would be the will of God who allowed us to figure it out. The difference between this world and one where everyone together could work and understand everything in existence would be exactly what I would expect the difference between this world and the next to be, not free genie wishes for the nice people and church music all the time in a pearly white mansion. God in Heaven probably wouldn't look like anything that's even possible to see on Earth, either, honestly, rather than being a guy (or two guys and a dove for the trinitarian version.)

    Additionally, I think most of the prosperity gospel types don't believe Jesus is God and don't believe God died. I'm not sure many of them take it as much more than a metaphor. The popularity of the prosperity gospel probably relies entirely on the fact it's popular and sounds good to many people's warped sensibilities despite making no sense. The mechanism for it working is all social: Join my club and get rich friends! And the mechanism of its punishment is also all social: How dare you question me and now you must suffer!

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    I slept for 30 extra minutes this morning. Dreamt I explained to my therapist that I am going to be using a different therapist, as I have a lot of anger toward religion that I probably should address, but I can't do that with her, because she's a Christian and I don't want to offend her. Also explained that I don't want to hear responses such as, "God is kind," since he also killed babies in the Bible, and I don't want to hear "he's God, so it's different," or any other excuses that basically say, "God can do no wrong," while if anyone else did the same things God did in the Bible, He would be seen as worse than Hit.ler (whose name is bleeped on this site, lmao). I told her that "kind" and "killing everyone's firstborns, including babies, because the Pharaoh guy in charge was forced by God to be stubborn and hold onto his slave workers" are a contradiction to me, it's just

    Random 14 Year Old: Gets raped by stepdad, becomes pregnant.
    Christians: "END ABORTION! Don't murder unborn babies! It's murder! There's no justification! Trust in God's Plan TM for you, little girl! He allowed you to be traumatized and get your life fucked up for A Reason TM! Look, see? We have virtues, so we are righteous!"
    Random 14 Year Old Girl: "What's the reason?"
    Christians: "Err--well, I dunno...it's just A Reason TM. God works in mysterious divine ways we mortals cannot fathom!"
    Random Girl: goes through hell, never gets an education, stays poor for life, struggles to raise the kid alone, gets stuck living with abusive stepdad for financial reasons, kid ends up also abused by stepdad, everyone else treats her like shit because she had a kid so young and they judge her for just trying to do the right thing
    Christians: "Don't worry...it's all coming together...wait for it...just be patient..."
    Random no longer 14 year old girl: "It's been 26 years..."
    Christians: "You know what, that one guy stayed blind for 30 years before Jesus healed him! At least you're still alive, it could be worse, you ingrate!"
    God: gets mad that some dude made a cow statue, murders babies already born.
    Christians: "Oh, okay, that's fine. I'm sure The Almighty has His Perfect Plan TM reasons. I mean, those babies were probably evil anyway."
    Another Christian: "No, no. They weren't evil, and He didn't 'slay' them. They are not dead, but sleeping. He ordered that guy to put the babies to sleep by slicing their tiny, defenseless bodies open, in the midst of that discriminatory massacre of those inferior to the Jewish, so He could send them to heaven to be His little buddies. They would never have ended up in Heaven otherwise. See how kind He is?"
    Some Random: "No, Jane, that line is in another part of the Bible. If the babies are just sleeping, what's all of that red stuff?"
    Christians: .........*stares and pauses in silence*........"You know what, guys, just forget it. It's all just a metaphor. We can all go home, now."
    Also Christians: "Ohhhhh. I get it. So the moral of the story is that God is The Awesome Almighty. Praise God! Amen."

    Like, holy shit...it's true, anti-abortionists really DON'T care what happens to lives AFTER they're born.


    5 minutes later...
    *Random woman with a Jesus T-Shirt walks out of an abortion clinic*
    Christians: "Oh, look, she's one of us. Must be a good person."
    Becky the Christian: "but Bob--"
    Bob the Christian: "BECKY! Don't judge. All believers are Forgiven TM."

    Biggest fucking hypocrites.




    I made it into satire, but that is legitimately the same kind of shit I have actually heard and seen from Christians.
    Last edited by Fluffy Princess Unicorn; 01-23-2023 at 03:44 PM.


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    Okay, all this anger is coming from my grandmother triggering me yesterday when I went by her place to pick up my mail. I'll share later, I recall the conversation verbatim.

    Still have anger issues toward religion outside of what happened, but my grandmother poked the fireplace and got it burning hotter again.

    I swear, the average person has no genuine empathy.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Lunacy View Post
    Okay, all this anger is coming from my grandmother triggering me yesterday when I went by her place to pick up my mail. I'll share later, I recall the conversation verbatim.

    Still have anger issues toward religion outside of what happened, but my grandmother poked the fireplace and got it burning hotter again.

    I swear, the average person has no genuine empathy.
    I would say that the average person is not HSP (allegedly 15-20% of the population). God is the others and the others are us. God has human feelings but he's not HSP. The Human values of our modern societies (Ethics, Moral, Tolerance etc..) should be superior to that of the time of the establishment of religions . You see, there has been the renaissance and the enlightenment ideas and there has been Beethoven and Nietzsche but also there has been Stalin and Mao and there has been Hiroshima and Nagasaki .We should learn from our past mistakes but we don't because it's part of the human condition.

    People comes with differents temperaments and characters but the cyclical nature of things makes it so history repeats itself. Faith and Spirituality are human survival imperative even if one don't believe in anything but in oneself one has to take into consideration the beliefs of others because of a primal instinct called the fear of ostracization. A group has more chances of surviving than an individual on its own (or at the risk of losing one's sanity) because we are a gregarious species and we need socialization and interaction with other human being. Human interaction is and has always been the natural mood regulator (to the neurochemical level !).

    We must also consider the power dynamics within the group. Even though Religion and States have been separated in most democratic countries, the power of religion still remains (like the memory !) and like I said God is the others and they have inherited the part of the power lost during that rather bloody process of separation. The constitution and democratic states guarantee freedom of speech but the reality is that we often censure ourselves for several reasons including psychological.
    Lack is the Muse of all Poets

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    I finally figured out why religious people tithe. I always wondered what it was for, because it's like...God doesn't need that shit. That motherfucker has his own golden fucking throne. He's just sitting up there on the clouds with a golden staff that's probably more intricately detailed than Eve's all natural pubic hair, like, "you men think you're great because you're drenched in pussy? I am the creator of all pussy. PRAISE ME OR DIE." He doesn't need peoples fucking money.

    So I always wondered why religious people tithed. Then I saw Catholics for the first time. It finally hit me, I just had this sudden revelation, like "Oh my god. Church is a weird yoga class for old people and men wearing dresses." Except, instead of meditation, they make you sing. They have you doing all these rituals. Kneel, bow, pop up while still on your knees, bow three more times the same way. Instead of The Downward Dog, this one's called The Holy Downward Blowjob. That's the reason these guys can stay celibate, they do all these weird exercises every Sunday, then they're like "No...I'm still sore from last Sunday, Jimmy. I refuse to have sex with you."

    I was raised as a Christian, and I always thought the Holy Ghost was a poltergeist...or like the heavenly version of demonic possession. I was terrified of it. I thought I was going to feel some sort of whiplash or something as it entered me, then one day I'd find myself saying things to somebody without having any control over what's happening. "JOE, DO NOT GET ON THAT PLANE. JUST DON'T BOARD THAT PLANE, JOE." Then if I didn't give God the credit for saying it, I'd be guilty of the sin of holy plagiarism. So I would have to make sure I said, "This is not me, this is God through me." Like I was verbally signing God's signature or something. It would be better that way, though. That way, when Joe's flight made it safely without him, I'd be like "Sorry, do you need to speak with The Manager?" "I don't know why he didn't want you on that plane, Daren. God is never wrong. Maybe this is your fault. Are you a fucking hijacker? No? Well, maybe you should've paid your tithes last week so you'd be physically fit enough to survive that plane ride, I don't know. God works in mysterious ways, Joe."


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    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Lunacy View Post
    I always thought the Holy Ghost was a poltergeist...
    I thought this too lol

    He's just sitting up there on the clouds with a golden staff that's probably more intricately detailed than Eve's all natural pubic hair, like, "you men think you're great because you're drenched in pussy? I am the creator of all pussy. PRAISE ME OR DIE."”

    lmao


    I thought I was going to feel some sort of whiplash or something as it entered me”

    No, that’s me sorry
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    Quote Originally Posted by End View Post
    get ready to get cucked
    Quote Originally Posted by roger557 View Post
    got this Socionics stuff caught by the balls

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