Think I'm going to have to take a break from the forum a bit. A sense a huge time waster incoming if I don't remove myself now...
ILE (ENTp)
SEI (ISFp)
ESE (ESFj)
LII (INTj)
SLE (ESTp)
IEI (INFp)
EIE (ENFj)
LSI (ISTj)
SEE (ESFp)
ILI (INTp)
LIE (ENTj)
ESI (ISFj)
IEE (ENFp)
SLI (ISTp)
LSE (ESTj)
EII (INFj)
Think I'm going to have to take a break from the forum a bit. A sense a huge time waster incoming if I don't remove myself now...
Fwiw im usually typed Fi lead and I think taking every random stranger's personal blueprint into account is impossible. If you're in a position to affect the lives of millions of people it would be impossible not to fuck a few people over and you could only possibly use your general ethical guidelines as a blueprint, assuming you care at all. Saying that a powerful politician isn't fi ego because some people will be hurt by their policies seems absurd. I don't like trump, ftr.Originally Posted by Dalek Caan
I didn't say he was SEE only because he power plays, read my post closer. I was condensing the gist of their attitude in the context of that description to point out how his motivations were different than SLEs.
By the bit about "emotional affirmation and guidance," I was referring to SLE-IEI duality, where IEIs emotionally anchor SLEs, precisely so that the power games they do play aren't devoid of meaning. If I were to describe how ILIs complement SEEs in this regard, it would effectively be that their Te gives more direction to the social maneuvers SEEs naturally make.
And obviously no one likes him, he's a fucking narcissistic sociopath. That's not why I'm typing him non-beta, and I hope it's not why you're typing him SLE.
How was it difficult to understand? I was saying p-sub betas (in my experience) have (or at least manifest) more integrity than j-sub betas, because of the Ni/Se polarization...it breeds a certain existential awareness and thus commitment that j-sub betas don't have to the same degree.I don't even know what point you're trying to make here other than to say you think I'm stereotyping. And Gulenko is sometimes kind of an idiot.
And I agree that Gulenko is sometimes an idiot, but I think that summation of Ni is spot on for what it's supposed to be. And, as a side note, I hope you can see how I wasn't discounting gammas from having Ni integrity in what I said...Trump is just a very distinct character.
Yeah, me pointing out how you painting SLEs as anti-social power climbers by giving a more thorough expression of their motivations and behavior is so much more me stereotyping than you.And I'm the one stereotyping???
WhateverRand was probably LSI...so it's kind of moot...
4w3-5w6-8w7
Maybe his possible early stages of alzhemier or dementia has diminished his judgement functions to the point where he is merely left with pure rawto dominate his personality with little trace of
and
. I am being partly facetious with this statement in case you can't tell btw.
Anyways, when you look at interviews of him when he is younger, he was easier to type and appeared to be more logical than ethical. I don't care what his type is anymore, his extreme overt narcissism overshadows his type anyways. He also looked like a covert narcissist when he was younger.
“We cannot change the cards we are dealt, just how we play the hand.” Randy Pausch
Ne-IEE
6w7 sp/sx
6w7-9w1-4w5
...yeah, but I never said that. I'm saying that he never shows an ability to even do that...
I keep asking, Where is the Fi? And everybody has something else they want to nitpick about what I'm saying...there own stereotype or something they concluded about a quadra, but where is the Fi?
I mean look at this https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.aeecba51c4ef
This was back in Feb 2018 on gun violence in schools...
It's like a self-help pamphlet for somebody with zero empathy...why does he need a guide to make sure he hits all the right empathetic notes? I bet he's a lot more comfortable in his xenophobic rallies where he can generalize everything with logic and Fe...
Like omg, I'd be a lot more comfortable if we'd just leave it at Se ego then, instead of misattributing him as Fi. It's just...meh.
One of the big highlights of 2018 is my debate with Soupman on the topic of Trump's type. I demolished his points rather easily as he represented the position of Socionics Britannica. Socionics Britannica has failed month after month after month to produce a VI template for each socionics type showing that Trump is SEE. They don't even have VI templates. Stackemup Typology (Socionics-side) aka Socionics New Wave has backed its typing of Trump up with valid VI templates, and for sure my templates are far better than those flawed and dilapidated templates over at socionics.com. It's all right here:
http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...25#post1262925
...SEE makes horrible sense for Trump because it's clear that he doesn't have Fi in his ego block. His people skills are weak since he's high in competitiveness and prefers to move against others. Good people skills would make him high in cooperativeness and give him a preference for moving towards others.
Furthermore, you are wrongly assuming that Trump is saying what he thinks people want to hear. You will note that he's been saying a lot of the same things for awhile now and likely believes what he espouses. This isn't the first election cycle he ran for president. It just happened that in this election cycle the political winds were blowing in his direction....in the elections he lost your logic would get turned upside down. Your reasoning is superficial because it's merely predicated on the fact he won.
This doesn't point toward strong Fi whatsoever. Fi egos have a stronger grasp on who's actually "friend", and there's no way he actually has this many friendships with all these randos, so in aggregate, it doesn't support Fi.
Rather, it shows that he wants to portray himself as likeable (Fe HA).
I know, but all you're saying is your own interpretation of SLE vs SEE. Can we keep it practical and conceptual? I don't even know what context you are referring to or how it would make any sense at all in the structure of socionics theory...
It's just that SEEs aren't ruthless businessmen. You have this crazy notion of power plays and ruthless cunning and it's just not even realistic. I don't know what else to say...By the bit about "emotional affirmation and guidance," I was referring to SLE-IEI duality, where IEIs emotionally anchor SLEs, precisely so that the power games they do play aren't devoid of meaning. If I were to describe how ILIs complement SEEs in this regard, it would effectively be that their Te gives more direction to the social maneuvers SEEs naturally make.
my god. No, I typed him SLE-Se because he has shit Fi and he fits the description of SLE-Se much better than SEE-Se by Description by V. Meged and A. Ovcharov. But for the sake of not attributing crappy things to Ti or Fi and giving people the wrong idea about things, I'd be fine if it was left at just Se.And obviously no one likes him, he's a fucking narcissistic sociopath. That's not why I'm typing him non-beta, and I hope it's not why you're typing him SLE.
That doesn't follow logically though. An Se lead that puts a lot of energy into their Se has a dualistic neurotic relationship to their Ni. Their sense of rationality is weak and their sense of irrationality is one-sided. It's a basic Jungian duality that forms the foundation for framing psychological neurosis. Again, I don't know what else to say. I'd have to know what context you are talking about.How was it difficult to understand? I was saying p-sub betas (in my experience) have (or at least manifest) more integrity than j-sub betas, because of the Ni/Se polarization...it breeds a certain existential awareness and thus commitment that j-sub betas don't have to the same degree.
Ni integrity? Huh?And I agree that Gulenko is sometimes an idiot, but I think that summation of Ni is spot on for what it's supposed to be. And, as a side note, I hope you can see how I wasn't discounting gammas from having Ni integrity in what I said...Trump is just a very distinct character.
No, you've just stereotyped Fi as power plays without rules and shit and said a bunch of other shit that isn't coherent to anyone, but you, you ignored how I even typed him, can't explain how he even has Fi without referencing power plays and rules, and say a bunch of shit in general.Yeah, me pointing out how you painting SLEs as anti-social power climbers by giving a more thorough expression of their motivations and behavior is so much more me stereotyping than you.
wtf
Whatever
you forget he's an extrovert so he expands energy and everyone loves me so I'm their friend. And, "this guy is my best friend and that guy is my best friend"
this goes back to what I said "everyone loves me"
-
Dual type(as per tcaudilllg)
Enneagram 5 (wings either 4 or 6)?
I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE
Best description of functions:
http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html
What the shit are you talking about?
Alright. You have very bad understanding of the functions and I don't know whether you're trying to pick at a fight or not but this is where I draw the line. Have a nice time debating his type with all sorts of misconception that you're using like "he wants to portray himself as likable (Fe HA)." Please revisit the functions. I'm not saying this to be mean just that I have a lot of experience with the functions
Happy typing.
Dual type
Enneagram 5 (wings either 4 or 6)?
I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE
Best description of functions:
http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html
I've been studying Jungian material for almost a decade.Alright. You have very bad understanding of the functions and I don't know whether you're trying to pick at a fight or not but this is where I draw the line. Have a nice time debating his type with all sorts of misconception that you're using like "he wants to portray himself as likable (Fe HA)." Please revisit the functions. I'm not saying this to be mean just that I have a lot of experience with the functions
Happy typing.
Trump doesn't have strong Fi, because if he did, then his relationships with people would have more solidity and his sense of loyalty wouldn't be so confused.
Look at his administration. Staff go in and out like it's a revolving door because his attitude towards them lacks stability. This shows a poor grasp of psychological distance, an area where Fi egos are meant to excel.
Look at his relationships with women, as well. Once again, they lack stability - once he wins over one woman, he's on to the next, employing any number of tactics that would probably make the average Fi ego puke.
Dude's not an Fi ego.
I already mentioned the description Aylen posted in relation to what I said (which you conveniently ignored), which was quite thorough and in line with what I've been saying on a theoretical level. And as far as I can tell, all you've said is regurgitated, stereotypical bs about SLEs being power mongers and disregarding ethical valuations in their pursuits etc.
All I was trying to say about SEEs in contrast to SLEs, is that they play the game in a different, somewhat less "balanced" way—not that they're on a perennial power trip and SLEs aren't, just that SLEs are more existentially anchored.
This coming from the person who has been painting SLEs in the same way, based on facile stereotypes such as, "Fi polr no interpersonal skills or integrity" and whatnot?It's just that SEEs aren't ruthless businessmen. You have this crazy notion of power plays and ruthless cunning and it's just not even realistic. I don't know what else to say...
And again, I wasn't trying to say SEEs are mere cutthroat businessmen; I was just saying that the player/social schemer archetype people have been continually referencing in the thread in both directions fits SEE better than SLE.
Suremy god. No, I typed him SLE-Se because he has shit Fi and he fits the description of SLE-Se much better than SEE-Se by Description by V. Meged and A. Ovcharov. But for the sake of not attributing crappy things to Ti or Fi and giving people the wrong idea about things, I'd be fine if it was left at just Se.
I'm saying that p-subs are naturally ensconced in that axis, so that while an Se-SLE on a purely cognitive level may not use Ni as dexterously as a Ti-sub, their overall orientation is more Se/Ni than the Ti-sub, and thus their attitude will be anchored accordingly.That doesn't follow logically though. An Se lead that puts a lot of energy into their Se has a dualistic neurotic relationship to their Ni. Their sense of rationality is weak and their sense of irrationality is one-sided. It's a basic Jungian duality that forms the foundation for framing psychological neurosis. Again, I don't know what else to say. I'd have to know what context you are talking about.
I was alluding to the Ni awareness that all betas and gammas have, in the sense implied by the Gulenko quote; not using "integrity" in the most general sense of being a good person. IME it's these types who are the easiest for me to just naturally relate to, because of how they pick up on certain nuances and shifts that stem from Ni-based processes.Ni integrity? Huh?
Umm... as far as I can tell, that's exactly what you've done re: him being supposedly Fi-polr or Fe-seeking. I already qualified the power play bit about gamma Fi multiple times and conceded that betas aren't exempt from this element but simply go about it in a different way. You've literally said nothing substantial with regard to his supposed SLEness except that he's callous and emotionally immature in a way that is supposed to comport with generic conceptions of the types.No, you've just stereotyped Fi as power plays without rules and shit and said a bunch of other shit that isn't coherent to anyone, but you, you ignored how I even typed him, can't explain how he even has Fi without referencing power plays and rules, and say a bunch of shit in general.
wtf
4w3-5w6-8w7
a decade only hum lol
Dual type
Enneagram 5 (wings either 4 or 6)?
I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE
Best description of functions:
http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html
However long someone studies typology isn't relevant to the veracity of one's argument.
I encourage you to check out my thread in the Beta forum called "Let's discuss SLE"
http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...-s-discuss-SLE
Dual type
Enneagram 5 (wings either 4 or 6)?
I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE
Best description of functions:
http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html
Trump is extremely tribal. He effectively divides the political landscape by deeming the media as the enemy. It's at that point that the electorate is discouraged from using their usual reference points for information, so people are left with a more personal reference point - their tribes (political parties, ideologically similar friends, etc.). The increase in tribalism was stimulated by the tone he has set since 2015 and even during the period in which he was airing the birther conspiracy theory. His base has characteristics of a kind of religion in which supporters engage in a kind of ritualistic back-and-forth with him, as seen in Trump rallies and on Twitter, again demonstrating the dynamics of tribalism. Since his candidacy, he has indulged specific demographics of people in the speeches he made off-the-cuff, reinforcing the tone of tribalism between one group and another. He largely appealed to demographics influenced by the Tea Party (those who felt disenfranchised by the Republican establishment), those who were religious, to whites, and to males.Well if you're thinking of SLE, they are quite capable even adapt at making relationships easily, whether these relationships stick around or not is another issue. Fi has many particular aspects. Fi can bridge interpersonal distance and create relationship using many ways (in the case of Ne) as a means of finding the right approach to each person, however relationships isn't the only thing about Fi. For Fi, emotions flow inward. An Fi individual such as myself can get very touchy when someone says something that affects us and then what happens is silence and hurt feelings. You really need someone to be able to read an Fi type in a few ways as to get in touch with them again when they "isolate" you or go into their inner world and are upset. You need someone who says "I see that you're not happy, did I do something." or "Did I do something wrong? Do you want me to fix it?" or "Was it something I did?" In order for the Fi type to say "yes it was this that was done wrong!" We can't just chug up all morals or relationships to be Fi because Fe has ethics too. So guilt (or holding others acceptable by silence) is a means of getting someone to recognize a wrong by my personal ethics. It's a not so nice way of addressing ones concerns or issues but I am an introvert and that's how it was and can still be even though I have practiced using verbal communication to ask for what I want - by this essentially becoming more assertive like my dual @Sol. However one can not escape their own psych. Emotions flow inward for Fi, you can either voice them in a sad way as SEE tend to do when they are hurt or you can shut in and give someone the silent treatment as to tell them you are upset, or you can react, which is what Fi types tend to do quite often. A reaction is still out of one's ethics and morals because it comes from a violation of those ethics that are not always written or voiced in a concise manner to the external world until violated. With SLE, they use Fe to recognize that the person is not happy and they do call them out. However when someone tries to guilt them an SLE may or could make them attack them. They can feel guilt but they don’t want to be guilted by others. For LSE guilt is almost like a motivation for them to do something because LSE have it "their way is the right way" and feeling like their relations is breaking they scramble to make it right. So either you can be yourself, a guilt-er and you can have increasing conflict with SLE or you can be a guilt-er and get stuff done lol with LSE.It's not always easy to see how this works until you meet an EII and then recognize how silent and non talkative they really are. SLE want to build the strongest team so as a leader they may pick the right person for the crew but an SEE may feel bad for the guy, where the SLE won't.
With Trump, he reacts to people who don't like him. "Like me" no "LOVE me" and when you don't he reacts "but I'm such a great person" These emotions are infantile emotions that stem again out of internal values. The difference between them as SLE and SEE is Fe. Fe types have a "tribe" because they adhere to GROUP VALUES.
Fi is quite infantile in emotions. It's like the cave man who couldn't find the right way to say "I'm hurt" and instead pouts and walks away. But it does something. In my opinion it's a form of communication, though silently and without much external talking. It is very minute (detailed) in the way it expresses information without words sometimes just with subtleties like eye contact.
Also it is him wearing his emotions on his sleeves thought the angry tweeting that I find his use of Fi Creative "SEEs are often highly in tune with their emotional responses towards other people, groups, or ideas, and often may be inclined to act on their emotional reactions with minimal restraint. They tend to wear their emotions on their sleeves, and leave little doubt in the minds of others as to the nature of their emotional reactions towards almost anything. "
I have never seen SLE get so infantile and touchy so consistently at everything and everyone.
You can recognize an ESTP by his tribes. They have many groups loyal to them, like their crew for the last 12 years, their team in the office. Older ESTP’s, i.e. over 40 years old, also tend to have deeper meaningful relationships (Fe-Ni). Their family too becomes their tribe. -this is all Fe
That's not what I was referring to in terms of "tribal" but okay. I see most people not liking him who have had business relations with him though.
Dual type
Enneagram 5 (wings either 4 or 6)?
I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE
Best description of functions:
http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html
His own 'tribe' is purposefully unclear: he's a 'New York Liberal,' yet he runs for the Republicans. He's neither here nor there; his affiliations come and go. He is 'friends' with those whom he can use.
He consistently displays a complete disregard for the powers that be. This was his winning motive. Reach for the crown without climbing the ladder, laugh in the faces of those who do. Opportunism at its finest.
He *uses* the public's sense of tribalism to fuel his power and influence. Chaos is what he sows, chaos is what he reaps. His is not a tight well-oiled Beta-machine.
Divide and Conquer.
Trump.
Gamma.
I don't think his attitude towards the "powers that be" are that consistent - he frequently venerates those in positions of authority in line with someone who has daddy issues. Putin, Marcos, just to name a few. He's a suck up, even when it gives him no net benefit.
Right. That’s why he’s SEE
Dual type
Enneagram 5 (wings either 4 or 6)?
I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE
Best description of functions:
http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html
Sigh. Samson's point is essentially: "Trump doesn't pay heed to hierarchies, therefore, other factors considered, he's not a Beta."
I counter by saying that it's not so consistent because he seems to have his own view of hierarchical structures in his attitudes about dictators and shit. He publicly praises people even at his own expense, implying that doesn't come from a place of opportunism, in contrast with what would be the case with SEE.
Now you're using my argument against Samson's argument as support for Samson's argument, even though I logically contradicted her.
You can't have it both ways.
“Listen to me, I am a crusty old whore / ******.”
If you’re going to pick someone’s ass to lick, this is a better choice than Bertrand from last time was. At least we know she likes it.
I vacillated between SLE and SEE for him at first but now I really do believe he is SLE. At his core Trump is oriented around ideology and principles, not pragmatism and certainly nothing Fi related. His nationalistic ideals are hardcore beta and you can see much resemblance between him and Mussolini who is pretty much universally typed SLE.
Trump is a very fearful, stubborn man and his logic is weak, not just "flexible". He feels death drawing nearer each day and he can't make a deal with death. It is poetic irony in a sense... That is what I see in him when I look beyond the surface nonsense, like twitter wars and pathological lying.
Yes I read the brief character profiles you posted and have read most of the SLE and SEE profiles available. I have also read Jung's description of Fi and Ti multiple times. Those stories above are not relevant to my typing him SEE but if you want to know why I do, it is scattered throughout this thread. I posted what I see as strong Fi in one or two posts. You are free to look at them if you wish. I have already made up my mind after considering the alternative of SLE. I didn't dismiss it at first and I don't often give an opinion on a type unless I feel somewhat confident or I am playfully battletyping someone. Of course my typings can change with new information. Nothing I have seen has convinced me to change my typing of Trump. I would if something changed.
It is not a case of "not my dual" for me even though I have probably joked about it. If you self type gamma then why isn't this a case of "not my quadra" or "not my identical" for you, and possibly others who refuse to even consider him as gamma? I have typed some pretty fucked up people duals. People that make Trump look like a saint in comparison.
You said you internalized the woman's experience but did you really? Those are your feelings and beliefs about the experience most likely, not her's. Her motivations could be anything. I don't know her. I can imagine it was due to horrible conditions just fine and even choose to internalize it but I won't. There is too much tragedy in this world to take it all into myself and I wouldn't want to. I have to agree with your mom's husband that she put her child in danger. I don't know how bad her situation was there but what she did is inherently dangerous.
Contrary to popular belief just because Fi has strong internalized feeling doesn't mean they automatically understand other people's internal motivations. That comes from interacting with people and experience. Even with experience they can be very wrong about what I am feeling because it is a projection of their own feelings not my own they are experiencing. I have posted full excerpts of Fi before so I am not going to do that but in summary:
I have pointed out instances where I believe Trump displayed strong Fi in his demeanor, silently, right in this thread. It was while his son praised him in front of the world but because Trump's feelings were hurt by someone else he could not enjoy the moment. Trump's Fe is demonstrative imo. I have wasted enough time on Trump for a lifetime. I have pretty much said all I have to say and it is buried in this thread for anyone to see.Fi is often seen as very hard to elucidate since so little of it is openly displayed. Jung writes of feeling in introverted feelers: "[Introverted feeling] is continually seeking an image which has no existence in reality, but which it has seen in a kind of vision. It glides unheedingly over all objects that do not fit in with its aim. It strives after inner intensity, for which the objects serve at most as a stimulus. The depth of this feeling can only be guessed—it can never be clearly grasped. It makes people silent and difficult of access; it shrinks back like a violet from the brute nature of the object in order to fill the depths of the subject. It comes out with negative judgments or assumes an air of profound indifference as a means of defence."
No one is typing him Fi lead for real as far as I know. SEE have stronger Fe than Fi if you follow Model A and I don't think his Fe is HA. I am not out to change your mind. I just found you idea that Fi egos can't be xenophobic odd.
“My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.” —C.G. Jung
But you led with it...
“My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.” —C.G. Jung
Image is "the models of ideal relationships." Example: "that is what a good friendship looks like...I'm saying that because I found one the other day
Most of it you'd never know that I was thinking this because I'm so calm and quiet on the surface.
Dual type
Enneagram 5 (wings either 4 or 6)?
I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE
Best description of functions:
http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html
I originally typed Trump SLE but then switched to SEE, but I have to say that, whatever type he might be, he is so psychologically damaged and malignant that assigning him to one category or another is really a disservice to Socionics.
Personally, I tend to take the type assignments of people, then look at how they act, and then make correlations between the two. In Trump's case, my tendency to do this is grossly unfair to SLE's and to SEE's, even if I consciously tell myself "No, Adam, neither of these types are fundamentally like Trump."
While Trump is a fundamentally despicable person, I have to admit that his being President has done a few things which I think will lead to some good.
His ignorance about the fundamental rule of law in the US shows everyone what can happen when we stop obeying it.
His ignorance of economics shows the danger of electing someone who is stupid.
His racism and the refusal of anyone in his party to counteract it or even verbally condemn it shows everyone what is at the heart of the present Republican Party.
The fact that he was a Democrat and is now a Republican shows the danger of assuming that a politician has any interest in anyone or anything but their own power.
His fundamental self-interest in making everything about his own profit and nothing about the benefit of the people in the country should show everyone who voted for him that the enemy of their enemies is not their friend.
His practice of using people and then discarding them in turn shows that when you lie down with pigs you get up dirty.
There are some general trends in this country that I think Trump is causing to move in the right direction. His support of coal will probably solidify a huge environmental backlash. His election by the Electoral College has caused the introduction of a bill to eliminate this very anti-democratic process. His refusal to pay 800,000 government employees "indefinitely", or until congress approves a tax to build a wall along the Mexican border, harshly exposes almost a million people to the reality that they, along with most Americans, live one paycheck away from economic catastrophe while guys like Trump feel free to inflict pain whenever they feel like it. And his utter incompetence at doing the job he was elected to do may finally force congress to take the role that the writers of the constitution intended and which they have increasingly abdicated to the Executive branch in recent decades.
So, while Trump may be the human equivalent of a burning bag of shit placed on your front porch, there may be some good that results from getting a glimpse of just how bad things could get.
Last edited by Adam Strange; 01-06-2019 at 03:28 PM.
Lol sure I mentioned how long I've been looking into it, but if I were to argue "I've been studying X years, ergo my argument is valid", that would be fallacious. I didn't do that.But you led with it...
Anyway, here's a meme. Cheers.
such a positivist you are
Dual type
Enneagram 5 (wings either 4 or 6)?
I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE
Best description of functions:
http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html
Trump isn't racist and is not worse than fellow Economics grad Alexandra Ocaso Cortez. Really the only negatives of his presidency are brought by the same establishment he adamantly opposed and 'overthrew'
I mean I agree with you. But having weak logic doesn't mean he doesn't value it over Fi, which I don't see him even using...
I did consider him as either SLE or SEE or a fucked up Se type. My conclusion, since you missed it is that he fits the SLE-Se profile much better, but that he's a fucked up person with STRONG Se, so his rational side will be weak, whether Fi or Ti, and that's he not a good representative of whatever type he is.Yes I read the brief character profiles you posted and have read most of the SLE and SEE profiles available. I have also read Jung's description of Fi and Ti multiple times. Those stories above are not relevant to my typing him SEE but if you want to know why I do, it is scattered throughout this thread. I posted what I see as strong Fi in one or two posts. You are free to look at them if you wish. I have already made up my mind after considering the alternative of SLE. I didn't dismiss it at first and I don't often give an opinion on a type unless I feel somewhat confident or I am playfully battletyping someone. Of course my typings can change with new information. Nothing I have seen has convinced me to change my typing of Trump. I would if something changed.
It is not a case of "not my dual" for me even though I have probably joked about it. If you self type gamma then why isn't this a case of "not my quadra" or "not my identical" for you, and possibly others who refuse to even consider him as gamma? I have typed some pretty fucked up people duals. People that make Trump look like a saint in comparison.
And then I noticed he has nothing that I can see resembling an ability to utilize subjective feeling to understand, empathize, sympathize, or do anything remotely related to not being a piece of shit that uses and abuses people. And his xenophobia is a form of generalized thinking he uses to get people riled up with Fe, despite that most of what he says isn't even all that remotely true statistically or even contextually. There is no internalizing feeling whatsoever, unless it's in service of his ego. In which case, his feeling is incredibly shit for an SEE that is supposed to have some kind of charisma, even if they aren't always "good" with people and whatnot. And I'd be surprised if an SEE would consistently marginalize and label large groups of people as bad when the facts show them that is false. An SEE wouldn't get into politics on a message like that.
It's like emotional intelligence; he doesn't have it; he's hugely disagreeable; the only feeling he has is when his ego is attacked and then it's still just about him. And we're typing him Fi? Like holy shit, really?
You're misrepresenting what I said. Fi is subjective, so of course I don't know her feelings. But the point I was making is that I internalized it, whereas the SLE internalized it with logic. And people who are good at internalizing with feeling become good at understanding what people really are feeling. It's the same with Ti; a good Ti user becomes good at understanding the subjective logic of other people. It doesn't mean they can mind-read.You said you internalized the woman's experience but did you really? Those are your feelings and beliefs about the experience most likely, not her's. Her motivations could be anything. I don't know her. I can imagine it was due to horrible conditions just fine and even choose to internalize it but I won't. There is too much tragedy in this world to take it all into myself and I wouldn't want to. I have to agree with your mom's husband that she put her child in danger. I don't know how bad her situation was there but what she did is inherently dangerous.
Contrary to popular belief just because Fi has strong internalized feeling doesn't mean they automatically understand other people's internal motivations. That comes from interacting with people and experience. Even with experience they can be very wrong about what I am feeling because it is a projection of their own feelings not my own they are experiencing. I have posted full excerpts of Fi before so I am not going to do that but in summary:
Then summarize please. At least make an argument. Your issue with mine have mostly been misinterpretation...I have pointed out instances where I believe Trump displayed strong Fi in his demeanor, silently, right in this thread. It was while his son praised him in front of the world but because Trump's feelings were hurt by someone else he could not enjoy the moment. Trump's Fe is demonstrative imo. I have wasted enough time on Trump for a lifetime. I have pretty much said all I have to say and it is buried in this thread for anyone to see.
According to Model A SEE have 3D Fi too...do you really believe Trump has that?No one is typing him Fi lead for real as far as I know. SEE have stronger Fe than Fi if you follow Model A and I don't think his Fe is HA. I am not out to change your mind. I just found you idea that Fi egos can't be xenophobic odd.
Last edited by Dalek Caan; 01-06-2019 at 09:13 PM.
How Trump logic work
16ABC0F9-21A8-4854-A6AB-D7A86A69E78F.jpeg
Elvis Presley (ESFp)
Te-HA and how it related to Fi-manipulative/creatif in EXFp
ENFp and ESFp
Last edited by karas; 01-07-2019 at 12:20 AM.
Esfp are fun but SEE-ILE Super-Ego relations looks like tom and jerry cartoon
Jimmy Tatro ESFp 7
Actually, I'm out. I read up to page 8 and saw what these arguments for SEE were.
And no, for the SEE backers, posting gulenko's shit and biased and un-nuanced descriptions aren't good arguments. He clearly has a very negative view of Fi. And it shows...now I get where all this is coming from. Fucking Gulenko does it again.
lol
same.
Nope, i just find his article interesting.
here i post example of Estp http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...vision-and-cat
ESFp
Here's a description from Filatova from same quadra (whom I think self-types ILI?) - http://www.wikisocion.net/en/index.p....28Napoleon.29That paints a picture of someone that has emotional intelligence, someone who can play on other's emotions in a positive way. Somebody who is also naturally sympathetic. More of a diplomat and entertainer/performer. Not the negative picture that Gulenko paints of a ruthless businessman that doesn't think about other people or care and is just in it for their usefulness in making money or whatever and then dumps them...it's just wrong.
Fi – Creative function. SEE magnificently manipulates people by their moods and desires. He loves to be the center of attention, to fascinate others with his ideas. He easily provokes quarrels but just as easily reconciles them, as if playing; pulling the strings. It is important for him to preserve the good opinion of other towards him, not to let himself fall, to stress his talent and exclusiveness. He’s a great actor and can manifest outstanding diplomatic inclinations, well cultured.
Sensing well the moods of others, SEE can support a comrade through a difficult moment; manifest his participation, his sympathy. By being naturally volitional and cheerful he impels other to act, not to fall apart or whine.
The SEE – men with bright and intense emotional range – from angry indignation to noisy enthusiasm. He thus always finds himself included in the emotional situation, he is ready to act: to help, to sympathize, to fight, to condemn, - and no matter how he expresses his relation to that occurring he is always absolutely confident in the correctness of his sentence.
With the opposite sex he readily displays initiative. Though to suffer rejection may be tragic he knows to move on.
Strong excitability and emotionalism give rise to increased sexuality. Especially in the younger years it is difficult to settle down.
SEE is prone to jealousy, may frequently suspect partner of treason, and does not pardon innocent flirtation.
Bright emotionalism also develops in the love of arts; SEE especially loves music and singing. Frequently he has some of his own music, demonstrates to all his talent and ability.
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