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Thread: Your typing of forum members

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sol View Post
    "So those forum members that would keep slandering me with personal remarks and distorted baseless claims about me"

    Generally I described the bs he wrote as heresy. Heretic as the term is not insulting, at least outside of religious contexts.
    The basis I could to call him as heretic is clear, evident but is not baseless, what was in your conditions.
    Also that was used not in his personal discussion, but in his _types talkings_ to describe them - in the forum's theme context. What follows from his comparision is that arguing about types inpires the negative emotions in him on the degree of personal insulting.

    What bush does is the example of demagogy and misleading, - seems his general approach to arguments, but only in types discussions. And here I've switched to the personality of the bush indeed. As prerviously he have lied when compared my assertion about his heretic approaches to the typology with the baseless claim. Though it's not my priority here to think about the person he is. It's enough that in the typology he's evident heretic due to the lack of understanding and low quality of the sources he uses, what is seen in many places in his wrong and sometimes rather strange opinions.

    Let's do not disturb your warm discussion, though if it's not about types then could to happen in other themes.
    I was not talking about you there with what I called a bannable offense. With "forum members" I was not at all referring to you, I don't know why you thought I did... I hope this clarifies.

    Though, I don't understand what your problem is with thehotelambush now. All he did is he has his own opinions that differ from yours, and that he doesn't type some forum members the same way you do...? I've yet to see lies from him. Anyway, not my problem, just saying.

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    Ive been here for 7 years and have 5000 posts.Mod me haha jjst kidding Consciousness is free because therd is no mayhematical eaquation for the observer.

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    Quote Originally Posted by golden View Post
    No one actively modding explains a lot of what’s going on on the forum.

    I modded before, long ago, and I quit because there was no active owner around backing up the mods, so we couldn’t do our jobs properly at the time.

    So it may not be as simple as asking mods to enforce rules set by someone else. That’s not directed at you, @squark, just an observation about the situation.
    Thank you for pointing that out. I probably am being too hard on the mods that are left. I didn't realize that they were limited by @mu4's absence. I'm not actually sure how many are even left? I assumed that most/all of them were gone, but that might not be accurate after all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Myst View Post
    Yeah I broke the ignore request after the topic came up here so I could present the actual facts. Because I'm not going to remain silent if such bs is being stated about what actually happened. She broke it much earlier by referring to me somewhere (not by name but it was obvious anyway)...
    The admin's ignore order still stands @Myst and we still have to follow it. If you continue breaking the ignore order, there is the option of getting thread banned.

    Quote Originally Posted by squark View Post
    Thank you for pointing that out. I probably am being too hard on the mods that are left. I didn't realize that they were limited by @mu4's absence. I'm not actually sure how many are even left? I assumed that most/all of them were gone, but that might not be accurate after all.
    There are about ~4-5 mods who are still active but the activity has been sluggish due to summer, so expect response to be slow. This forum has also never been heavily moderated so mods generally don't take action on every single report that comes in.

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    Sol seems to be doing this Te-lead thing to where he considers himself (and own accepted concepts) to be *the* standard for something.

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    Feeling fucking fantastic golden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by silke View Post
    The admin's ignore order still stands @Myst and we still have to follow it. If you continue breaking the ignore order, there is the option of getting thread banned.


    There are about ~4-5 mods who are still active but the activity has been sluggish due to summer, so expect response to be slow. This forum has also never been heavily moderated so mods generally don't take action on every single report that comes in.
    There was a time when the forum was more heavily modded than that, unless I,’m misunderstanding you. That is, every report was followed up on and if no action was warranted, an explanation was given to the person who reported.
    Last edited by golden; 06-24-2018 at 03:18 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by golden View Post
    There was a time when the forum was more heavily modded than that, unless I, misunderstanding you. That is, every report was followed up on and if no action was warranted, an explanation was given to the person who reported.
    That must have been before I joined this forum. When I joined I remember a few posters complaining how there was almost no active moderation going on here. So it looks like it comes and goes. The number of mods has gone down over the past year or two and we haven't had any replacements as the admin has been gone.

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    Quote Originally Posted by silke View Post
    That must have been before I joined this forum. When I joined I remember a few posters complaining how there was almost no active moderation going on here. So it looks like it comes and goes. The number of mods has gone down over the past year or two and we haven't had any replacements as the admin has been gone.
    Yes, it has been cyclical / evolving / devolving, extending back also to before I joined.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Delilah View Post
    Sol seems to be doing this Te-lead thing to where he considers himself (and own accepted concepts) to be *the* standard for something.
    Thats an LSI thing to do

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cosmic Teapot View Post
    Thats an LSI thing to do
    It's both, in different ways. It's the LSE who is more likely to say "Do it my way or you're wrong" which reads as a paraphrase of Sol.

    A comparison of the two:

    LSI:
    In case of a Maxim this is their 'school', their view of the world, their ideas about the world. “I know how the world was made, who will teach me about heights and the depths. What evidence do you have to show for? I will explain away all your evidence!” If a Maxim runs into indisputable evidence which he can neither explain nor ignore, he (similar to a Robespierre) needs time to fill up the gaps in their belief system, to improve their world view making it complete and consistent from their point of view. He likes to analyze new data and draw independent conclusions, accepting or rejecting certain things.

    . . .
    When this element is in the leading position, the individual is distinguished by his or her ability to logically evaluate relations of the objective static reality, or the world of objects. He also has the ability to change the interrelations between properties of different objects according to his wishes, and through this influence objects themselves as carriers of these properties. Correct evaluation of one's relations with other objects helps the individual know which objects should be avoided, and which can be "hunted." Such an individual is able to set his logic — or his knowledge of objectifiable reality, patterns, laws, and correlations of the objective world — in opposition to knowledge of others. He has the ability to mold and perfect not only his own knowledge of objectifiable reality, but also that of other people.

    LSE:
    This type will first say 'no', and then he will look for the objective data. Having accepted certain order, Holmes would follow it rigorously. If someone offers to take another road, a Holmes needs not just a route on a map to agree with, but some authentic facts to support the decision. The first function is conservative, and it means that “my world is stable”, “my territory is stable”. “I have to know that the world is in order, and this order should never change.”
    The person of this type would never say, “Please explain”, but he will demand: “Demonstrate it to me”. Besides a Holmes will inquire: “What methods did you use? What are the statistics to support what you are demonstrating? Who told you of this fact? Who are you? Who gave you the authority to talk about psychology? Are you a psychologist?” People of this type need exact and reliable data, which they could rely upon in the future – this is the structure-forming base, the level of organization of their personalities. Everything pertaining to it must be reliable: “Who told you that this is correct?” - “Dr.N did”. - “Well, then it is all right”. A Holmes wants to be convinced that the information he uses is not something thought up by some lunatic
    Sol, with his "holy texts" of Jung and Augusta, and assertions that all else is heresy, especially those lunatics Reinin and Gulenko fits very much the LSE approach, and not the LSI approach.

    The LSI collects information, and sorts through it, seeing how it fits together, taking the parts that make sense together, and discarding the rest
    LSI studies any matter that occupies him in great depth. He stubbornly and persistently collects information to attain a thorough understanding of the subject. He favorably views well-organized and smoothly functioning systems. Anything that does not fit into the system he rejects as nonsensical.
    The information itself, and he makes sure it fits together into his own understanding and system. It's not taking a whole source at its word and throwing out information from other sources, which is what Sol does.

    In contrast the LSE:
    It takes into account only the facts, such a thing as their understanding is completely ignored. Because of this, his knowledge can be very good, but too superficial to deep their understanding. This means that to create something based on them new it is difficult. If he is to explain something, sooner or later, he says, "Understandable" and interrupts you. Dislikes new hypotheses, theories, concepts, since they have not yet checked. It accepts only something that we can safely refer. Generally does not accept long lengthy discussion of the category of "Is there life on Mars?", Immediately called all windbags. If you tell him that "it is believed that ..." then he'll tear off in mid-sentence, not even giving the finish, "which means there is an opinion? And on what it is based on what evidence? ", Instead of a little think about it. In general, I never get into the theory that he did not need right now in practice. But if you can out of this is something to remove, then yes, a useful thing. He needs to know the "in fact", and everything else is not interested. This feature means certain narrow-mindedness of thinking, inability to look at the situation from a different perspective. His logic - not very flexible standard. It can be difficult to understand, say, Castaneda and other philosophers, expanding their horizons of thinking concepts. After all, it's simple and clear: The earth revolves around the sun, and it is - only one of the possible truths on this subject, to understand can be very difficult. It was known that between two points can be carried out only one line, but came Lobachevsky created their geometry and it becomes clear that this is - also a certain convention. So, no "really" can be all in principle. However, when he defends his knowledge or can not ensure the normal operation of the first function, it may be better to try to understand something, make it easier to "fight" to defend the first function. In life, it also ignores such a thing as mutual understanding with people around them, as if trying not to bother with it, such as to adapt to other people. Also, it does not differ curiously, if it is not practical knowledge, so it can "sin" a "die-hard".
    I started bolding things from the above paragraph, but then realized I would have to bold most of it, as I think it's a very good description of what Sol has demonstrated as his thought process on things.

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    Quote Originally Posted by silke View Post
    The admin's ignore order still stands @Myst and we still have to follow it. If you continue breaking the ignore order, there is the option of getting thread banned.
    Please read the rest of my post where I said "I will anyway continue to keep to the agreement in other threads and in this thread too". Also please do not just say it only to me. With this, I'm done with the topic. Thank you for considering what I said.
    Last edited by Myst; 06-24-2018 at 01:11 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Delilah View Post
    Sol seems to be doing this Te-lead thing to where he considers himself (and own accepted concepts) to be *the* standard for something.
    Orienting by own accepted concepts is Ti... LSI is infamous for their rigid standards and opinions based on what they themselves accept for what's logical and rejecting what doesn't fit in with them and being conservative with new ideas (weak N in addition to Rationality). That's MBTI where xxTJ with consistent standard following is automatically Te. This forum is about the system of Socionics however, not MBTI.


    Quote Originally Posted by Cosmic Teapot View Post
    Thats an LSI thing to do
    Yeah, LSE is more about just productive work rather than orienting by "ideology" (systems of thought). Both are seen rigid in the LSx way by some people but it's done about different things.

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    hint: everyone considers themselves to be the standard for whatever their base function is

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bertrand View Post
    hint: everyone considers themselves to be the standard for whatever their base function is
    People are just sure in those region's own opinions. They may change them in case of new data enough for this.
    It' appropriate, that for the most people which have other types with weaker those functions or having them not valued (and hence with worse wish to use and skills) - it's harder to change the opinions related to your ego.

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    yeah the thing people ought to realize is that people generally have things to contribute concerning their area of innate professionalism

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cosmic Teapot View Post
    Thats an LSI thing to do
    No, as I _explain_ my approach to what theory should be used by the _objective_ basis to trust what relates to Te. Ti type would prefer to say about authorities as the main argument, but not objective basis.
    Also unlike Ti types I prefer to limit and simplify the theoretical usage, as I'm more aimed on the objective results by not dancing with smart words. Especially when those theoretical additions are more doubtful to trust, or even controvert to more core theory like from Jung.

    Also that I'm not LSI can be seen among my EII/ESI women examples - they would be Fe types if I'd was LSI, as I take into account IR effects too for making the lists. We had with Myst discussion about possibility of me being LSI - there were other arguments too.

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    I think it's pretty obvious that you're Te and not Ti ego Sol. But, just because I think so, and you think so, doesn't mean that other people will necessarily see it, and may need more information and examples to come to a conclusion on it. That you stick so closely to Jung as your source, and do not like the kind of analysis that Ti types engage in is a pretty clear indicator though and hard for anyone to argue with imo.

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    We need video for non verbals.

    Seriously, I'm not sure. LSA ̣logical sensory ambivert with ambiguous Na PoLR.
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    Quote Originally Posted by squark View Post
    It's both, in different ways. It's the LSE who is more likely to say "Do it my way or you're wrong" which reads as a paraphrase of Sol.
    Yes, and imo it's the LSE who is more likely to try and convince you about something whereas the LSI is not so much interested in convincing others or even so interested in others pov. Anyway, i don't like giving Sol so much 'air time' as i feel he hasn't deserved it lol.

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    Quote Originally Posted by falsehope View Post
    But if we stick to core socionics only we will never make progress. It's not good to wait for others to do the research, proofs and so on because this might never happen if we don't take things into our hands. Every statement counts towards developing future theories. If someone prefers to use core socionics he is free to do it, but imposing it upon others is arrogant and pointless. Not everyone is like you and they don't share your Ni PoLR.
    You need to specify though that it's speculation for those future theories without checking yet if they are applicable in reality...

    It was more a criticism of Ne than Ni though lol


    Quote Originally Posted by Sol View Post
    No, as I _explain_ my approach to what theory should be used by the _objective_ basis to trust what relates to Te. Ti type would prefer to say about authorities as the main argument, but not objective basis.
    Also unlike Ti types I prefer to limit and simplify the theoretical usage, as I'm more aimed on the objective results by not dancing with smart words. Especially when those theoretical additions are more doubtful to trust, or even controvert to more core theory like from Jung.

    Also that I'm not LSI can be seen among my EII/ESI women examples - they would be Fe types if I'd was LSI, as I take into account IR effects too for making the lists. We had with Myst discussion about possibility of me being LSI - there were other arguments too.
    What are your objective *actual* results with typology so far in real life?

    Your EII women examples just seem like women who have a certain kind soft little smile and eyes with it.


    The "crazy" is I still did not found even one assured EII woman on forums. Either they have no video, or I doubt based on other reasons. During the last year on this forum among the women which thought themselves as EII I typed to other types 5.
    Rather clearly there is some bias or such on your part, or otherwise how likely is it that it's exactly your dual and the opposite sex at that that you cannot find anywhere on these forums?


    Quote Originally Posted by Sol View Post
    The similar seems is with *bush which understands his weak position in usage of heretic bs and his doubtful level of the typology understanding (just check above) and would prefer this stayed hiden to play here a good expert for his emotional needs. Objectivity and truth for possible Ti type may mean lesser than Fe image and emotions he wants to get here, and this leads him to the wish of censorship of disagreements just because he does not like this.
    And you don't do speculation? This is speculative as hell about @thehotelambush 's motivations...


    If the local mods will act against the truth, forum's tasks and objective reason by the idiotic prohibition of the term "heresy" what he wanted - the situation may repeat here too, - I may reduce the talking here or will stop the usage of the forum. Then it will become possibly with lesser obstacles to continue to mislead people about types, about what Socionics is, spread the bs and mistakes with lesser limitations and to avert by this from types and Socionics. The sabotage against the truth and reason will be successful.

    If bad emotions after the criticism related to _types_ here - on the typology forum - will lead to bans - the truth will suffer and people misleaded by the mistakes which stayed without the criticism.
    I do agree about this though... the ability to criticize (ofc objectively = not biased by emotion) is important.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Delilah View Post
    Yes, and imo it's the LSE who is more likely to try and convince you about something whereas the LSI is not so much interested in convincing others or even so interested in others pov. Anyway, i don't like giving Sol so much 'air time' as i feel he hasn't deserved it lol.
    Nah, LSE doesn't care about convincing others of an "ideology": Ti system of thought that isn't directly about pragmatic results like for Te. LSE doesn't really have time for arguing about opinions... LSE stereotypically cares about making people work hard, while LSI stereotypically cares about the "ideology" and its implementation.

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    XXX is doing YYY because they're ZZZ, which is valid/invalid.

    An action is valid/invalid, therefore Socionics.

    He is making vague statements in the direction of unnamed people, thus efficiently annoying everybody, because he is.

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    Im not annoyed

    well, sometimes Sol annoys me, but its way less than average

    everyone annoys someone some of the time

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    My previous remarks were genuinely not directed at anyone in particular, merely general comments on a pervading issue.

    I wonder about the extent to which it is useful to consider unhealthy behaviours as core features of a type, rather than as something which should be considered wholly independently. I also wonder about the value of metanarratives (e.g. attributing differences of attitude and opinion to type) when discussing things of elementary importance or where resolving an issue is a simple matter of fact rather than a matter of opinion.

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    yeah its basically stereotyping, but I also think the perjorative tone can be a result of our own projections so it may not necessarily be the nastiness it at first seems

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    Quote Originally Posted by Myst View Post
    Nah, LSE doesn't care about convincing others of an "ideology": Ti system of thought that isn't directly about pragmatic results like for Te. LSE doesn't really have time for arguing about opinions... LSE stereotypically cares about making people work hard, while LSI stereotypically cares about the "ideology" and its implementation.
    No, i disagree. Besides, I don't think socionics is an 'ideology'

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    Quote Originally Posted by Delilah View Post
    No, i disagree. Besides, I don't think socionics is an 'ideology'
    Ideology = set of opinions or beliefs of a group or an individual. As in, opinions where empirical evidence is not the starting point but an a priori idea for a system of thought. My point is exactly that Socionics is easily used as such an "ideology" yeah... not by everyone but by some definitely. Ask @Director Abbie, a real LSE if she deals much with the theory... nope. She said to me that she forgets about most of it soon when told about it. Lol. And she'd never bother engaging in these arguments about what's logical and reasonable about the theory... So, if Sol is an LSE, then he's an extremely atypical LSE that oozes Ti buzzwords.

    Feel free to disagree but you showed no objective, that is, logically reasonable basis of the disagreement... unless you do explain your thoughts. Incidentally, Sol criticizes people for this a lot, them not providing such objective reasoning. Again, a typical LSE couldn't care less about that.

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    why assume abbie is more of a LSE than Sol

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bertrand View Post
    there's actually a concept in American law that basically says you can't be insulted by something a reasonable person would not take seriously to begin with, so all this whining about Sol calling people heretics is dumb because everyone should know, like Adam Strange pointed out, there's no gold tablets backing it, its just a meaningless phrase. its like if I call someone an infidel because they prefer vanilla over chocolate. its not bannable because you're just as if not more stupid for thinking its offensive to begin with
    That applies to libel or slander, not harassment. And he's not joking, he's quite serious in thinking I'm a heretic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Avebury View Post
    So you think that Sol calling you a heretic is an offense and should be warned, or are you saying this to suggest that Myst's complaint is not legitimate?

    If someone is complaining of harassment that seems like something to look into, you know, as a mod and all...
    I think that this forum is and has been a toxic environment, to varying degrees, and the first step to fixing that is to not let people get away with continually harassing others. (And I'm not a mod btw if that's what you're suggesting.)

    I don't know enough about the @Myst / @squark situation to comment, other than I think Myst is one of the most valuable members on here, though she does like to argue a bit too much

    @Sol is correct in that my understanding of socionics is based on my own direct observation and inspiration, so I don't mindlessly follow Jung or Augusta, but beyond that it seems he has little idea what my views actually are. (I have never emphasized Reinin dichotomies and in fact discourage their use in practical settings.)

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    @thehotelambush
    you are incompetent heretic with strange views and the lack of understanding even of the core things, what is seen on many examples
    and you can't protect your opinion by normal logical ways, what switches you to heretic reasoning, emotions and demagogy

    that's the essense about the situation and your discussions here

    your problems are 2: 1) lame sources about the typology which you took too seriously and got a mess in your head; 2) your mind is very speculative and you do not care about this. the typolgy is the game for you to use it normally and with the responsibility. you play here for your emotions and do not care about the truth. if you would be stupid, - I'd could to see the other reasons, but your approach is conscious
    Last edited by Sol; 06-25-2018 at 11:42 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush View Post
    That applies to libel or slander, not harassment.
    lol, no... harassment is subject to the same requirement that you can't just manufacture it by flipping out in response to something that isn't credible to begin with. I get that you want to argue this, but the point is someone arguing with you on a public forum and using the word "heresy" to characterize your stance is not harrasment just because you feel harassed, in the same way a statement is not defamatory just because you were offended. there's a reasonableness requirement that is set a lot higher than where you'd personally peg it. you're essentially crying to mommy hoping the state is ESE when its probably not. although who knows with these mods

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bertrand View Post
    lol, no... harassment is subject to the same requirement
    the personal harassment is the critique of his opinion as he feels bad emotions from this
    it's his speculative logic in this question where he uses the similar approach like with typology discussions

    what he actually wants is the censorship of opinions about the typology and the lie about what the typology is by the hiding that his heresy is not such. as the objective truth is out of his priorities here

    just the recent example. he delusionally claimed that Te can't set the goals, lol. while any function can do this
    have no idea by which bs sources he studed the types that accepted so evident delusions
    also he promised the money for the answer on his noob question there. I gave it, but seems he has no that promised million

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    did Sol just say lol

    sometimes I get the feeling that Sol is actually from an english-speaking country

    anybody can say lol, but sometimes he'll break out with a surprisingly non-Sol word or phrase

    oh he said noob as well

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    I wonder if it's possible to just drive out conflict by carrying a conversation about something else entirely while the conflict plays in the background, but idk where to take this train of thought because I don't even have a new conversation topic in mind

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    if I weren't in bed right now then I might actually move to my computer, but I'm just way too comfortable right here, and I don't really imagine it'll be worth the trip

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    sometimes I like to make jokes about recently traumatic experiences I've endured (whether real or imaginary) on various internet platforms but like in a subdued way where nobody knows if I'm being serious, or it slips under the radar because I put it in a place nobody is willing to look

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    how funny would it be if I mistook this window for my blog

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    @wasp I love how you’re trying to change topic LOL
    KEEP IT LIGHT AND KEEP IT MOVING

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    @User Name in return for your cooperation, I will let you keep your sociotype, but beware that if you upset me, even if it's minor, there is truly no measure to how fast I will place you in an adjacent quadra (I don't remember what adjacent means)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bertrand View Post
    lol, no... harassment is subject to the same requirement that you can't just manufacture it by flipping out in response to something that isn't credible to begin with. I get that you want to argue this, but the point is someone arguing with you on a public forum and using the word "heresy" to characterize your stance is not harrasment just because you feel harassed, in the same way a statement is not defamatory just because you were offended. there's a reasonableness requirement that is set a lot higher than where you'd personally peg it. you're essentially crying to mommy hoping the state is ESE when its probably not. although who knows with these mods
    Harassment is not about how third parties view someone. Harassment has to do with how one person feels, and although we can make some assumptions about what is reasonable to feel, it will be more subjective than defamation.

    Harassment as a legal concept includes, broadly, “unwanted” behavior directed at a person that the purported harasser will not cease. One person may be more easily bothered than another. Sometimes people choose targets who are easily bothered.

    “S/he shouldn’t feel harassed” is the typical, usually irrelevant defense raised when someone says they do in fact feel harassed. It’s a real copout. Backing off when someone says “Leave me alone” is a behavior correction most people master by first grade.
    LSI: “I still can’t figure out Pinterest.”

    Me: “It’s just, like, idea boards.”

    LSI: “I don’t have ideas.”

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