"Emotional" manipulation (Fe vs Fi)

[XoX]

How would you describe the difference between "Fe manipulation" and "Fi manipulation".

In addition which types are more easily affected by Fe manipulation and which are most affected by Fi manipulation and which are most immune? What types are most skilled in these? Are leading Fe/Fi types naturally more skilled than Fe/Fi creative types or actually less skilled? Which other types are potentially skilled in these? Can a Fe/Fi PoLR type learn to use these functions to manipulate others?

I'm using the word "manipulate" here in a sort of negative sense as in having an effect on other person despite the fact that the other person might not be willing. Sort of "evil usage of Fe" and "evil usage of Fi". Who can do it best and who can't resist it and why?

[machintruc]

is manipulating with objective emotional content
is manipulating with subjective affective content

[XoX]

is manipulating with objective emotional content
is manipulating with subjective affective content

Could you spit out an example

[machintruc]

is manipulating with objective emotional content
is manipulating with subjective affective content

Could you spit out an example

manipulates by love, friendship, relations.
manipulates by socialising, emotional expression.

[snegledmaca]

If I contrast myself to my IEE friend then manipulation is manipulation of emotional atmosphere, is everyone getting along kind of thing, while is manipulation of personal convictions, is everyone into my convictions kind of thing. Even more straightforward, for me it's am I extending the emotional atmosphere onto everyone and is everyone experiencing what they are suppose to be experiencing while for my friend it's am I integrating everyone into my ideas and are they doing what they are suppose to be doing.

[UDP]

is manipulating with objective emotional content
is manipulating with subjective affective content

Could you spit out an example

manipulates by love, friendship, relations.
manipulates by socialising, emotional expression.

ESFp manipulation
ESFj manipulation

[Ms. Kensington]

manipulates by love, friendship, relations.
manipulates by socialising, emotional expression.

ESFp manipulation
ESFj manipulation

I swear I just felt really lightheaded and naseous.

[raisonpure]

IME, INTps, ENTjs, and ESTjs have been most immune and even averse to Fe manipulation. I was wondering why my ESTj teacher wouldn't listen to me when I lectured him until I reread this part on Fe PoLR: Bursts of emotions, insults, imposing of emotions. Unfortunately, I become guilty of all three when I lose control over myself, and the more he ignores me, the more I pressure him with "evil usage of Fe", and the more he evades me. An ENTj girl would run away as far as she could when my Fe went haywire; the Betas would stick around for the drama My father (INTp) would either stay away from messy scenes or start roaring and intercede aggressively. He and the ENTj share a dislike for emotional pleas. I've had to learn to get what I want through "trade" because of my father: when I wanted him to drive me to an observatory, pleading with him for an hour got me nowhere; he only agreed on the condition that I lend him my computer. My brother, on the other hand, always has a way of getting my father to comply... Somehow. My father is very dutiful when it comes to his work, but my brother can tear away him from his duties by badgering him over the phone with non-stop crying. And the ENTj once told me that she thought her brother was a "cheat" because he'd make their mother agree to his requests by "sucking up to her" and "acting sweet".

In group settings, I strive to minimalize negative emotions + actions that could either leave a permanent scar in others or result in the ruin of relationships. Only if they're close to me, though. If they're not, I either don't notice them and their changes or don't feel entitled to meddle in the affairs of strangers. A few days ago, I didn't notice that a guy looked heartbroken until it was pointed out to me by someone else. And even the knowledge didn't stop me from complaining: "Hey, even if you're heartbroken, you don't have to use up so many tissues!!" I'm less b*tchy to those I care about. With them, I pay attention to every subtle change in their expression or behaviour, ask them what's wrong, and do whatever I can to fix the problem.

In general, I squirm my way into other people's hearts by doing lots of favours for them. ie. helping them with their homework (I complete work assigned to me immediately when I hero-worship the other person ), getting gifts for them, escorting them out when they leave... And vividly remembering every moment in the history of our relationship, right down to the colour of the clothes that a person once wore. My ESFp friend remembers such details as well as I do, and it's what keeps us tied together. That we're "special" to one another is what distinguishes our friendship from the rest... Sometimes I feel guilty to my ESFj friend because I can't feel the same way about her, and I think it's because we hardly have any time to ourselves. We almost always interact in group settings, and unlike my ESFp friend, she doesn't share the same need to get away from group settings, to hide away in a "secret spot" where we can just focus on one another. Fi dual-seeking... The need for exclusivity? The ENTj girl is still on the search for "a person just for me": someone who has eyes only for her, and would shower all of his/love on her alone. She complained that her ex's heart was "unsettled"... I believe she craved for someone whose heart was devoted entirely to her and did not belong to everyone. Which I suppose is hard to get from Fe types, who are seemingly out to conquer the hearts of everyone -- and not just one.

[reyn_til_runa]

If I contrast myself to my IEE friend then manipulation is manipulation of emotional atmosphere, is everyone getting along kind of thing, while is manipulation of personal convictions, is everyone into my convictions kind of thing. Even more straightforward, for me it's am I extending the emotional atmosphere onto everyone and is everyone experiencing what they are suppose to be experiencing while for my friend it's am I integrating everyone into my ideas and are they doing what they are suppose to be doing.

question:

would the focus of the Fe manipulation then be less intense? picture maybe a hostess at a party making sure everyone is okay, that in general, the party is creating a positive atmosphere, something that people will call a "good time" as a result? focus on amping up the emotional content of the party, rather than his own mood at the party.

then would the focus of the Fi manipulation be more concentrated on making sure the partner/guest is receiving and responding to emotional input accurately?

Fe emotional input -- "are you having a good time?" asks a question about one's reaction to the party, for the benefit of the party's value (good or bad, fun or boring, etc). it is diffuse and superficial, interested in the blanket feeling over the party.

Fi manipulation might suggest something about one of the guests (a friend of the host) seeming to hit it off with another of the guests in a way that made the host uncomfortable.

I wonder. I'm pretty sure we can't look at these two without bias. Wouldn't Fe manipulation always seem less negatively manipulative than Fi manipulation (if people here are correct)? There's something missing. Perhaps we have set a watermelon and an apple on a scale.

[UDP]

manipulates by love, friendship, relations.
manipulates by socialising, emotional expression.

ESFp manipulation
ESFj manipulation

I swear I just felt really lightheaded and naseous.

?

[snegledmaca]

If I contrast myself to my IEE friend then manipulation is manipulation of emotional atmosphere, is everyone getting along kind of thing, while is manipulation of personal convictions, is everyone into my convictions kind of thing. Even more straightforward, for me it's am I extending the emotional atmosphere onto everyone and is everyone experiencing what they are suppose to be experiencing while for my friend it's am I integrating everyone into my ideas and are they doing what they are suppose to be doing.

question:

would the focus of the Fe manipulation then be less intense? picture maybe a hostess at a party making sure everyone is okay, that in general, the party is creating a positive atmosphere, something that people will call a "good time" as a result? focus on amping up the emotional content of the party, rather than his own mood at the party.

No, I think both are equally intense and usually, perhaps it's different for others, for me the emotional content of the party determines my mood so through focusing on the general emotional atmosphere and making sure everyone enjoys themselves makes me feel good.

then would the focus of the Fi manipulation be more concentrated on making sure the partner/guest is receiving and responding to emotional input accurately?

Fe emotional input -- "are you having a good time?" asks a question about one's reaction to the party, for the benefit of the party's value (good or bad, fun or boring, etc). it is diffuse and superficial, interested in the blanket feeling over the party.

Fi manipulation might suggest something about one of the guests (a friend of the host) seeming to hit it off with another of the guests in a way that made the host uncomfortable.

No, I think that would still be manipulation.

I wonder. I'm pretty sure we can't look at these two without bias.

I'm convinced we can. These concepts are independent of us and thus our biases have no influence on their existence. They're just mirrors that are skewing the image.

Wouldn't Fe manipulation always seem less negatively manipulative than Fi manipulation (if people here are correct)? There's something missing. Perhaps we have set a watermelon and an apple on a scale.

Ah yes, initially I though so at first, but if you look at the second part of what I've written that isn't really so.

Picture a pathological manipulation, they want to make sure for example that everybody is aware of their suffering and that you are suffering because they are suffering. Or a more straightforward example, picture a schoolyard (Or an office, some kind of social environment) and a type wanting to make you miserable. They'll make sure everybody they want is in on it, the extending of the emotional atmosphere onto everyone (They desire it to be extended upon) part, and they'll make sure that everyone is enjoying while you are suffering, the everyone experiencing what they are suppose to be experiencing part.

And pathological would want to make sure you're following the "right path", for example, aggressive activists. A more straightforward example would be you rejecting the right path, or even worse assuming a stance that would be contrary to the right path. That would make you inferior which brings with it a special status. All of a sudden you're less of a human being, you're treated unequally, you lose some of your human rights and in extreme examples like with religious fanatics and wars, you lose your humanity (In their eyes) completely and are reduced to an object.

[Expat]

I could relate to most of what raisonpure wrote.

IME, INTps, ENTjs, and ESTjs have been most immune and even averse to Fe manipulation. I was wondering why my ESTj teacher wouldn't listen to me when I lectured him until I reread this part on Fe PoLR: Bursts of emotions, insults, imposing of emotions. Unfortunately, I become guilty of all three when I lose control over myself, and the more he ignores me, the more I pressure him with "evil usage of Fe", and the more he evades me.

Perfect. That's precisely how it happens.

There is something about "out of control" Fe that is disconcerting about Te types; it affects our basic understanding of reality.

An ENTj girl would run away as far as she could when my Fe went haywire; the Betas would stick around for the drama My father (INTp) would either stay away from messy scenes or start roaring and intercede aggressively. He and the ENTj share a dislike for emotional pleas.

Yes.

I've had to learn to get what I want through "trade" because of my father: when I wanted him to drive me to an observatory, pleading with him for an hour got me nowhere; he only agreed on the condition that I lend him my computer. My brother, on the other hand, always has a way of getting my father to comply... Somehow. My father is very dutiful when it comes to his work, but my brother can tear away him from his duties by badgering him over the phone with non-stop crying. And the ENTj once told me that she thought her brother was a "cheat" because he'd make their mother agree to his requests by "sucking up to her" and "acting sweet".

What you said about the ENTj rings true; not sure about the "trade" bit about an INTp. I think it's more about having a logical reason to do anything, "trade" being just one possibility; perhaps it happens in the context of a history of failed Fe attempts.

A few days ago, I didn't notice that a guy looked heartbroken until it was pointed out to me by someone else. And even the knowledge didn't stop me from complaining: "Hey, even if you're heartbroken, you don't have to use up so many tissues!!"

Interesting that you said that. I've been in the position of the "heartbroken" guy; my reaction was to cut relations with the person who talked about "tissues". Forever.

Fi dual-seeking... The need for exclusivity? The ENTj girl is still on the search for "a person just for me": someone who has eyes only for her, and would shower all of his/love on her alone. She complained that her ex's heart was "unsettled"... I believe she craved for someone whose heart was devoted entirely to her and did not belong to everyone. Which I suppose is hard to get from Fe types, who are seemingly out to conquer the hearts of everyone -- and not just one.

That's pretty much the way it is, imo. Perfect. Although that is only one way the Fi dual-seeking is manifested.

[UDP]

IME, INTps, ENTjs, and ESTjs have been most immune and even averse to Fe manipulation. I was wondering why my ESTj teacher wouldn't listen to me when I lectured him until I reread this part on Fe PoLR: Bursts of emotions, insults, imposing of emotions. Unfortunately, I become guilty of all three when I lose control over myself, and the more he ignores me, the more I pressure him with "evil usage of Fe", and the more he evades me.

He also may have ignored you because if he told you what he really thought about you acting in such an immature way, he would be fired.

I doubt that is just a " thing or porl thing" - that is probably what I would do as well.

[Slacker]

I'm not sure how I manipulate, but I know how my daughter manipulates and I think she's ENFp too. Kids' manipulation is pure and natural - they don't feel like it's wrong at all so you see it in all its glory. Anyway, her main method of manipulation is to do what I call "emotional blackmail." If I won't let her do something, she says she doesn't love me anymore. And sometimes she'll say she'll love me forever if I'll get something for her. I imagine we got more sophisticated in it as we get older but that's probably how an Fi person would manipulate with Fi. "If I get what I want, I will shower you with love and affection. If I don't get what I want, I will withhold love and affection." All kids do emotional blackmail regardless of type, but all kids try every kind of manipulation. I think they stick with what works for them or feels best to them based on their type though.

My ENFj dad manipulates by acting full of sorrow and hyper-emotional if he doesn't get what he wants. If you give him what he wants he will instantly become happy and be friendly again. But I know if I don't call him on Father's Day and if I don't send him a present, my mother will call me and tell me how sad my dad is and tell me to talk to him because he's moping around and she wants him to stop, and I'll feel overwhelming guilt, so I'll talk to him and he'll sound like he's just stopped crying, and he'll continue making me feel guilty until I've expressed however much regret I'm supposed to express and assure him that I did order a present but it must just not have arrived yet. I would never dare to not get him something for fathers' day. He'd cry for a week and I'd feel guilty for the rest of my life. I know an unhealthy ESFj who will go into another room and pretend like someone isn't there if he's unhappy with them. If he's happy with people he'll be very friendly and welcoming. It's the fear of this happening that is manipulative. The first time he does it, it's a surprise. But you know in the future that unless you want him to loudly and obviously ignore you every time you see him by sitting in another room, you have to regularly and always let him have what he wants. My husband prefers him to be in another room though so we usually just keep him pissed off at us.

So, to summarize, I would say that when people choose to manipulate, Fe manipulation = guilt, and Fi manipulation = emotional blackmail.

[Expat]

And pathological would want to make sure you're following the "right path", for example, aggressive activists. A more straightforward example would be you rejecting the right path, or even worse assuming a stance that would be contrary to the right path. That would make you inferior which brings with it a special status. All of a sudden you're less of a human being, you're treated unequally, you lose some of your human rights and in extreme examples like with religious fanatics and wars, you lose your humanity (In their eyes) completely and are reduced to an object.

That's only one aspect of Fi manipulation.

Another one would be to act if as if you were one's closest friend, or in love with them.

[Expat]

My ENFj dad manipulates by acting full of sorrow and hyper-emotional if he doesn't get what he wants. If you give him what he wants he will instantly become happy and be friendly again. But I know if I don't call him on Father's Day and if I don't send him a present, my mother will call me and tell me how sad my dad is and tell me to talk to him because he's moping around and she wants him to stop, and I'll feel overwhelming guilt, so I'll talk to him and he'll sound like he's just stopped crying, and he'll continue making me feel guilty until I've expressed however much regret I'm supposed to express and assure him that I did order a present but it must just not have arrived yet. I would never dare to not get him something for fathers' day. He'd cry for a week and I'd feel guilty for the rest of my life. I know an unhealthy ESFj who will go into another room and pretend like someone isn't there if he's unhappy with them. If he's happy with people he'll be very friendly and welcoming. It's the fear of this happening that is manipulative. The first time he does it, it's a surprise. But you know in the future that unless you want him to loudly and obviously ignore you every time you see him by sitting in another room, you have to regularly and always let him have what he wants.

All of that could apply to my ISFp father, too, except less intensively than what you're describing. More -- according to the mood.

[UDP]

IME, INTps, ENTjs, and ESTjs have been most immune and even averse to Fe manipulation. I was wondering why my ESTj teacher wouldn't listen to me when I lectured him until I reread this part on Fe PoLR: Bursts of emotions, insults, imposing of emotions. Unfortunately, I become guilty of all three when I lose control over myself, and the more he ignores me, the more I pressure him with "evil usage of Fe", and the more he evades me.

He also may have ignored you because if he told you what he really thought about you acting in such an immature way, he would be fired.

I doubt that is just a " thing or porl thing" - that is probably what I would do as well.

PS: not only that, but I would be very wary of you in the future, as you so outrightly displayed manipulative actions and questionable character.

[Blaze]

wow great posts here all around.

reyn, why do you think that Fe is the watermelon, that it's somehow worse than Fi?

to me Fi can be equally sneaky and diabolical when it wants to be. think of the behaviors of Glenn Close and John Malkovich in Dangerous Liaisons.

there's a shadow side of both Fe and Fi - negatively manipulative use of Fe would be the behaviors of a Jim Jones or a ******.

the shadow side of Fi would be sneaky, relationally manipulative, politically astute behaviors where the Fi person, from the outside, doesn't look like the one who pulled the strings but is the one who really did.

[raisonpure]

IME, INTps, ENTjs, and ESTjs have been most immune and even averse to Fe manipulation. I was wondering why my ESTj teacher wouldn't listen to me when I lectured him until I reread this part on Fe PoLR: Bursts of emotions, insults, imposing of emotions. Unfortunately, I become guilty of all three when I lose control over myself, and the more he ignores me, the more I pressure him with "evil usage of Fe", and the more he evades me.

He also may have ignored you because if he told you what he really thought about you acting in such an immature way, he would be fired.

I doubt that is just a " thing or porl thing" - that is probably what I would do as well.

He's his own boss, so no.

[raisonpure]

IME, INTps, ENTjs, and ESTjs have been most immune and even averse to Fe manipulation. I was wondering why my ESTj teacher wouldn't listen to me when I lectured him until I reread this part on Fe PoLR: Bursts of emotions, insults, imposing of emotions. Unfortunately, I become guilty of all three when I lose control over myself, and the more he ignores me, the more I pressure him with "evil usage of Fe", and the more he evades me.

He also may have ignored you because if he told you what he really thought about you acting in such an immature way, he would be fired.

I doubt that is just a " thing or porl thing" - that is probably what I would do as well.

PS: not only that, but I would be very wary of you in the future, as you so outrightly displayed manipulative actions and questionable character.

And do you think my actions were to my own advantage? That bursting into tears is to my advantage? Do you know what constitutes an unquestionable character? Do you think a person's character is sullied if she calls her teacher out on being "immature" for insulting her mother and two innocent bystanders? Do you think it's more honourable to avoid confronting someone about a resurfacing problem that's been inconveniencing others?

[FDG]

... The need for exclusivity? The ENTj girl is still on the search for "a person just for me": someone who has eyes only for her, and would shower all of his/love on her alone.

Well, who wouldn't want that? I even get pissed if a girl I am dating talks with somebody else too extensively ignoring me...although I understand that this internal request of mine is unreasonable, and thus avoid showing my annoyance.

Raisonpure: ignore that stuck up idiot called UDP.

An example of what I call Fe manipulation form an ENFj I have to deal with from time to time: when he wants me to do something, he starts asking personal questions in order to "put me in the right mood". I have learnt to just ask him "So tell me what you want to tell me" after the first question. At first he found it really unsettling, but now he has gotten used to it.

[UDP]

IME, INTps, ENTjs, and ESTjs have been most immune and even averse to Fe manipulation. I was wondering why my ESTj teacher wouldn't listen to me when I lectured him until I reread this part on Fe PoLR: Bursts of emotions, insults, imposing of emotions. Unfortunately, I become guilty of all three when I lose control over myself, and the more he ignores me, the more I pressure him with "evil usage of Fe", and the more he evades me.

He also may have ignored you because if he told you what he really thought about you acting in such an immature way, he would be fired.

I doubt that is just a " thing or porl thing" - that is probably what I would do as well.

PS: not only that, but I would be very wary of you in the future, as you so outrightly displayed manipulative actions and questionable character.

And do you think my actions were to my own advantage? That bursting into tears is to my advantage? Do you know what constitutes an unquestionable character? Do you think a person's character is sullied if she calls her teacher out on being "immature" for insulting her mother and two innocent bystanders? Do you think it's more honourable to avoid confronting someone about a resurfacing problem that's been inconveniencing others?

You made no mention of that in your original post, or if you did I missed it.
I interpreted your actions as intentional - bursting into tears to your own advantage, trying to get your teacher to agree with your lecture that you were giving him. Apparently that was not the case.

IME, INTps, ENTjs, and ESTjs have been most immune and even averse to Fe manipulation. I was wondering why my ESTj teacher wouldn't listen to me when I lectured him until I reread this part on Fe PoLR: Bursts of emotions, insults, imposing of emotions. Unfortunately, I become guilty of all three when I lose control over myself, and the more he ignores me, the more I pressure him with "evil usage of Fe", and the more he evades me.

Reading that paragraph by itself, especially the first sentence being your opening line of the post, it sounded like you were commenting on an intentional attempt at Fe manipulation. If that is not the case, then no, it would not be 'questionable character' -- according to what you are alluding to in your most recent post in this thread. I do not personally question your character, but that was my observation of the information that was presented in your post.

Do you think a person's character is sullied if she calls her teacher out on being "immature" for insulting her mother and two innocent bystanders?
Do you think it's more honourable to avoid confronting someone about a resurfacing problem that's been inconveniencing others?

No, and No.