Are ILIs whistle blowers?

[stevENTj]

I think they are, and I've been one all my life. Popular folks.


A strong sense of how events will play out and consequences (Ni), along with a good understanding of logical systems which may be inherently flawed or corrupt (Te) allows us to see impending doom or things jumping off of a cliff. Often there seems to be a culture built up around such a flawed system that everyone believe works and is correct, and have spent their lives building and maintaining. Except that you know it doesn't work and will fail. You amass mounds and mounds of data trying to convince yourself that you're wrong, but all evidence points to you being right. They system will fail and you know it. But nobody else does. The INTp then blows the whistle, and they can because they don't understand all the negative social consequences and ramifications due to PoLR Fe. The INTp then gets confused. Why are you all upset and yelling at me? What's wrong? It's broken and we need to fix it before it's too late and while we still have a chance!

Not that other types can't be whistle blowers too, but I think INTp's may have a knack for it.

Does this make sense? Thoughts?

[Jarno]

It sounds perfectly reasonable.

Although I would think that ESTJ and ISTJ might be whistleblowers too, but with other things (as far as I've seen in my own workplace.)

INTP systems that are followed (exactly as explained by TS)
ESTJ when people don't obey the rules
ISTJ when people don't follow the manual

[Garmonbozia]

Hi love,


I really can't tolerate whistles myself. This may simply be be part of the slight autism I am plagued with. Then again in may be that I just don't like the damn things.I'm okay with others that are fond of whistles as long as they don't engage in their whistle blowing fondness in close proximity of my autism.

xoxoxoxox
A

[stevENTj]

[Garmonbozia]

Something funny?

[implied]

<3

[aestrivex]

Hi love,


I really can't tolerate whistles myself. This may simply be be part of the slight autism I am plagued with. Then again in may be that I just don't like the damn things.I'm okay with others that are fond of whistles as long as they don't engage in their whistle blowing fondness in close proximity of my autism.

xoxoxoxox
A

sorry, your beloved hugo isn't here right now. leave a message.

[Garmonbozia]

Hi love,


I really can't tolerate whistles myself. This may simply be be part of the slight autism I am plagued with. Then again in may be that I just don't like the damn things.I'm okay with others that are fond of whistles as long as they don't engage in their whistle blowing fondness in close proximity of my autism.

xoxoxoxox
A

sorry, your beloved hugo isn't here right now. leave a message.

[s:77d9870a24]Please please please fuck me in a purple burka. Muwah. Talk later.[/s:77d9870a24]

(Taken back.)

[Exodus]

I think you're right about INTps being whistle-blowers, as take moral concerns as more important than social standing (Fi > Fe), and are not unwilling to piss people off (Se) if necessary. The Insider is a good fictional example (based on a true story) of an INTp going against a corrupt system.

[implied]

@ steve -- are you sure you still aren't ENTj? you're such a flatterer. (; i can relate w/ your post and agree with it as i used to get in tons of trouble for doing this sort of thing. however i'd say the statement is still probably more generally true of my dad, who i do believe is ENTj still. but yes, if you're that convinced you're right and everyone else is wrong, of course.

i think it's fairly common to gammas to do what's right over what's socially proper, and probably not be too concerned about causing a big stink (it's admirable, even!) so yeah, i would tend to agree.

[UDP]

I used to hate INTps because of this tendency -- and like any other type, their functions get awry when they are in a bad mood or offset by other circumstances.
But normally speaking, I pay attention to INTps as they are sort of like barometers. They are great think tank partners. It was some time to acclimate to their polr, but once you understand who they are and why ---

A strong sense of how events will play out and consequences (Ni), along with a good understanding of logical systems which may be inherently flawed or corrupt (Te) allows us to see impending doom or things jumping off of a cliff. Often there seems to be a culture built up around such a flawed system that everyone believe works and is correct, and have spent their lives building and maintaining. Except that you know it doesn't work and will fail. You amass mounds and mounds of data trying to convince yourself that you're wrong, but all evidence points to you being right. They system will fail and you know it. But nobody else does. The INTp then blows the whistle, and they can because they don't understand all the negative social consequences and ramifications due to PoLR Fe. The INTp then gets confused. Why are you all upset and yelling at me? What's wrong? It's broken and we need to fix it before it's too late and while we still have a chance!

+

I think it would be unethical to do anything else.

they are very easy to appreciate. An INTp who can learn harness their polr can become great, tremendous human beings. (As can all people who can successfully deal with their polr and other challenging aspects)

But to reply directly to this thread, I am very thankful INTps do what they do. I respect them and have come to understand very well their role in the socion and society.

[KSpin]

I did that at my last company I worked for. They were laying off temporary workers at the same time that they wanted to increase the throughput of the business. I complained that this was pure idiocy, and that I didn't care if it was the MD's decision, it was still bloody stupid. I ended up leaving the job because nobody would listen or complain.

[Jarno]

I think it would be unethical to do anything else.

Indeed, i've said once that it's a civilian his duty to whistleblow.

although most of the time i'm just to lazy to fill my duty.

now i come to think of it, i even got our central dutch whistleblow number programmed in my mobile phone.
I guess that's hard evidence for INTP being whistleblowers

[stevENTj]

@ steve -- are you sure you still aren't ENTj? you're such a flatterer. (; i can relate w/ your post and agree with it as i used to get in tons of trouble for doing this sort of thing. however i'd say the statement is still probably more generally true of my dad, who i do believe is ENTj still. but yes, if you're that convinced you're right and everyone else is wrong, of course.

Ah who knows, lol. I'm definitely more INTp than ENTj, but I guess I can play a pretty convincing ENTj, and I think I probably come across as more EJ than IP on the forums, but that still doesn't make me an EJ.

Using Expat's analogy from the Te views thread, an ENTj will be less concerned about where exactly they're going on a journey so long as the journey is as quick and as efficient as possible. An INTp cares less about the actual speed and efficiency of the journey, so long as it'll get them to the proper destination in the end. Where the whistle blowing INTp comes in is when an entire group or organization is headed from location "A" to "B" and everybody is convinced that "B" is the proper and correct place to be and have put considerable investments into that, except that the INTp realizes that "B" is wrong and will lead to disaster and that "C" is correct, and nobody else really knows it. The duty and moral obligation then falls on the lone INTp in a crowd of staunch "B is correct" believers to flag the entire boat and get it to change course. This is when I need my dual "you're right, they're all wrong, lets go kick some ass "ESFp to fight off the rigid ISTj's and do my dirty work for me. My ISFj wife would be useless because she'd be saying "do nothing because I'm worried you'd get hurt". An ENTj can whistle blow too, but I think it'd be a different kind of whistle blowing and not quite what I'm talking about.

A great but small scale example is on forums like these. People can commonly get an idea in their heads about something and then a consensus develops that something IS a certain way. This becomes established as a factual piece of information for which discussion is no longer needed. This is fine for informal discussion, but not okay for serious discussion because things can be missed, biases are not accounted for, and the scientific method is not necessarily being applied. Even if it is somewhat, is it consistent? I may notice something that completely contradicts whatever the consensus of a forum is, which has the tendency to upset a fair number of people. What I bring up may not completely disprove the consensus, but it does tend to put an enormous crack in the foundation such that further discussion is now needed since things are no longer certain. This drives anybody with PoLR Ne crazy - I tend to annoy the hell out of ISTj's, although ISFj's are usually more accepting because they value the Ni and Te that my point delivers.

i think it's fairly common to gammas to do what's right over what's socially proper, and probably not be too concerned about causing a big stink (it's admirable, even!) so yeah, i would tend to agree.

Great point! Yes this makes perfect sense. To someone who values Fe, maintaining the social atmosphere of the forum may be more important than having its foundation of knowledge or system being 100% correct. With Gammas there's no big concern for nuking Fe.

[KSpin]

Do you think this whole 'Whistleblowing' trait would mean that it's quite difficult to get a job with some companies, if the person in charge of recruiting doesn't like it?

[stevENTj]

but how would you know someone is a whistle blower or not?

Maybe an INTp would make a good outside consultant for things like this. They'll get paid big bucks to come in, look at an entire organization, and they're free to make whatever suggestions they want regardless of social consequence. Then the company or organization can either take the suggestions or not. Somebody working on the inside might feel and think the same, but more hesitant to speak out fearing retribution and wanting to hold on to their jobs. Then the joke goes, "they paid HOW MUCH for that consultant to say what?? I could've said that for free...." Of course, the consultant does the dirty work of breaking the ice so then there's less social consequence for any insider at that point. "well yeah, 'everybody' knew that. duh".

hmmmmmmmmm.....

[KSpin]

I was just thinking that they may have an inkling, or an idea, that somebody seems very similar in attitude to someone else they've known. You know, previous experience and all that.

[UDP]

i think it's fairly common to gammas to do what's right over what's socially proper, and probably not be too concerned about causing a big stink (it's admirable, even!) so yeah, i would tend to agree.

Great point! Yes this makes perfect sense. To someone who values Fe, maintaining the social atmosphere of the forum may be more important than having its foundation of knowledge or system being 100% correct. With Gammas there's no big concern for nuking Fe.

I believe there is something for both INTxs about this, as I have no regard for "The Norm" at all myself. I am trying to consider what or how that is different for an LII.

This is when I need my dual "you're right, they're all wrong, lets go kick some ass "ESFp to fight off the rigid ISTj's and do my dirty work for me. Laughing My ISFj wife would be useless because she'd be saying "do nothing because I'm worried you'd get hurt". An ENTj can whistle blow too, but I think it'd be a different kind of whistle blowing and not quite what I'm talking about.

Perhaps it has something to do with the LII disregard for Se, as in, power or status, or fear of "getting hurt".

There is a switch for ILIs on how they handle their Fe polr -- they either disregard it completely or can be very very polite.
There has to be a similar switch for LIIs.

[Kirana]

I think it would be unethical to do anything else.

well yeah, but that does not necessarily make it the strategic thing to do, nor the strategic way to do it...

[Kirana]

i mean, there are ways to achieve an ethical outcome, that may be more appropriate and less damaging, or achieve multiple objectives, or more safely, or would lead to an positioning of things that open more doors as a result of addressing the problem, then simply whistleblowing. since something needs to be corrected, i prefer to correct it in a way that brings maximum benefit (intended benefit + auxiliary benefit + enabling possibility for future benefits) for one action. hence, more strategic.

there are of course, cases where a situation is unsalvageable and the only ethical option left is whistleblowing, but personally i prefer to consider various options, and the larger picture, as a first step. no point solving one ethical issue at the cost of massive collateral damage, which could breed further ethical issues.

[Kirana]

man, i hate having to think up examples for general rules. especially with no pre-set scenario to give me a shortcut. and i'm hungry too so this might not be a great one. let's see...

let's say for example you work in a factory, and the safety rules are not being followed such that it breaks the law and potentially endangers the workforce. factory managers don't give a damn, when you raise it up to them. so if you're thinking only on the level of the factory, perhaps you would send a complaint to the authorities, which could lead to the factory being shut down indefinitely until improvements are made, and result in a massive fine to the company. this is ethical, from the standpoint that laws are being broken, and you and your colleagues are potentially endangered by the lack of safety standards.

however, this is a very direct solve-the-problem approach. the damage could be that not only you, but your colleagues would be out of a job, possibly permanently if the company decides it's no longer profitable to have a factory where you are. it could also lead to another factory being opened in a country less regulated, so really the problem simply shifts somewhere else, just not affecting you and your friends.

some thoughts that come to my mind are: you could buy time by working out, with your colleagues, on how to temporarily maintain safety such as doing the stuff you know would be identified by an audit (if the factory HSSE guy would actually do his job) so that safety levels are acceptable. you could work out whether the company, higher up from your factory, is likely to be more attentive. sometimes, when upper management demands increased production at all costs, they assume 'while maintaining safety', and your immediate managers may just be too incompetent to explain what they would need to do that to their superiors. sometimes, it is possible to highlight it to a central company safety person and internally it could be corrected, and it might be that outside your own small factory operation, actually the company has a method for improvement. if you find that this is the case, and manage to bring it about, it might subsequently cause upper management to lay emphasis on the bit about not sacrificing safety next time they demand increased production, which means other factories would also benefit from your action. you could even add extra work in an Fi manner, by bringing it about without making your immediate boss look bad, or by even making him look good (i've seen strong Fi types somehow manage to do this) and further minimise any relationship impacts it could bring you or your colleagues. or maybe you could combine this action with also getting increased attention on other long-standing issues. so maybe you don't make the change by causing a big splash but only a small ripple. it's still a change.

i really can't say exactly what the end action would be if it were me, since this is hypothetical and i'm not really great at generating examples, but these are just the sorts of things i'd check and consider first, before i go for the direct, non-big picture option. after all, things don't happen in isolation. situations are related to other situations, and are influenced and created by yet other situations, and i believe you ought to check or 'model' what happens to the related things, if you remove one thing. and what difference your action will really make in the big picture and beyond the immediate. i think it's better to understand what led to things being the way they are, and who knows a small tweak will cause things to fall in place the way they should. if, however, things are the way they are because of rampant greed, selfishness and stupidity that permeates the whole organisation which cannot be repaired in any way but to shut things down, you have to make an ethical call on whether the damage incurred is worth the benefit, and act on it.

i'm sorry if it was not a clear example to illustrate what i was trying to say, and probably a bit exaggerated to increase the contrast, but that's the best i could come up with before my brain got bored with itself trying to generate a specific example of what it considers self-evident and so tries to fall asleep.

[Kirana]

dunno. from the gist of the discussion, generally, it seems to me that what is meant by 'whistleblowing' in this discussion is the kind that is more confrontational, rather than an action that is more remedial. in other words, A is wrong, i will fix/eliminate A. but in this way, you remove the symptom, perhaps by forcing compliance to regulation, or by stopping a process/situation or by drawing publicity on the unethical conditions. but because the underlying forcing factors remain, the situation A will emerge again. alternative POV is: A is wrong, B and C plus constraint D creates a situation that led to A, and if i remove constraint D it will solve the organisation's problem that led to A in the first place, and perhaps prevent it from recurring. more emphasis on supplying a solution that removes the problem, and less on stopping a system or process that doesn't work. although this can be a less antagonistic form of whistleblowing (like in my example), it also considers ways to achieve the result without any whistleblowing at all, perhaps by taking advantage of any concurrent events to indirectly nudge a change.

i don't know how to explain this more clearly. another example is how my INTp brother approaches problems (or plays games) and how i do it. he tends to be focused, and acts on solutions that solve one issue at a time. i tend to make a magic bullet to avoid or solve multiples or defer some problems until a more suitable time arrives to effect an action, or if i solve one thing at a time, i'm on the lookout for a way to tweak the solution to also position me advantageously to further influence things, or to make possible options that could come in handy in the future, or at least not pick the option that would unnecessarily close doors and burn bridges. my brother - not that devious (for lack of a better word).

i suppose it can be said to be an approach that may involve some manipulation, more strategy, more diplomacy or all of the above. some people are by default averse to this approach and prefer the direct method. and some people may prefer it, while not willing to admit they do it - like my ISTj mother, who prefers this approach as well, but will never admit to using her 'evil powers for good'.

maybe someone else could explain it better. assuming i'm not totally incomprehensible, that is.