LSIs/ISTjs interpreting calm demeanor as refusal to acknowledge problem

[ataronchronon]

I recently had an argument with my LSI roommate. I need to get out, fast, but here is how it went:

Him: I don't understand you.
Me (cooly): That isn't required.
Him (angrily): Every time she comes over here, you do something like this.
Me (still cooly): That's why we're leaving.
Him (getting louder): (pause, slightly taken aback) Yea, you get the hell out of here!.
Me (calmly to the girl): Let's go
Him: *now yelling, but I wasn't really listening. He was really angry though.*

What the argument/fight was about is irrelevant because he has anger problems. We've had arguments before and he gets really angry and starts yelling, but I don't like getting angry or yelling, so I stay very neutral and talk very calmly to him, but this only makes him more angry. This fits in with the quadra description of betas hating emotional indifference--the less I reacted, the more visibly angry he became. Nothing against betas, of course--I've known some very cool ones. This one just has some serious anger problems.

[vague]

My ISTj father is similar. In arguments he is unable to maintain a reasonable volume. Even debates over impersonal issues such as current events usually end up a highly emotional affair. Sometimes he becomes so angry that he does not make sense and I have to try hard not to smile when he says something bizarre. He interprets a calm demeanor as a refusal to fully acknowledge the issue at hand. The easiest ways to put an end to it are to quickly leave the vicinity or burst into tears.

[Expat]

He interprets a calm demeanor as a refusal to fully acknowledge the issue at hand.

Brilliant -- because he's wired to react to an ENFj. That's one thing that's very difficult for some types to relate to.

[raisonpure]

Wow, this is disturbingly familiar... I think the problem was not so much that you reacted coolly -- emotional indifference -- as the way you treated him as inconsequential and hid your decision to move out from him (at least, that's how I'd perceive it). Here's how I'd analyze him if I were in his shoes:

Him: I don't understand you.
He's demanding you to explain yourself.

Me (cooly): That isn't required.
I'd interpret this as:
1) "I don't need to explain myself to you, you aren't important."
2) Incompliance (to explain yourself when I wanted to you)
hence 3) A challenge and insult to my authority. And how does one respond to that? By asserting oneself more, duh.
4) Pretending that there isn't a problem and waving it off, when it must be solved!

And how does one react to incompliance? By exerting more and more pressure on the offender until it complies. At least, that's what I naturally do, though it could be partially due to his loss of control over anger (at the insults), which results in less control over his volume.

An example of when a guy once told me not to study outside in the same area as him in warning tones:
Him: It's best if you study in the classroom.
Me: Why?
Him: It's for your own good.
Me (thinking that I am in danger): Is it really important?
Him: Yes.

Trusting his knowledge of the wider situation, I went into the classroom and couldn't study for a whole hour because I was too overcome with worry that people had something nasty in store for me. I was filled with fear of what could be happening out of my sight, and felt the need to act with caution. During a break, I walked up to him and asked him why he wanted me to go in; what sort of danger I was in. The reason was as harmless as, "It's hard to study when you're around, and besides, it's beneficial for your future if you study in there."

I could accept the latter reason, but I was angry at him for the anxiety I suffered under the false alarm, since he made it sound like I was in danger. Later on, I marched up to him and demanded, "Next time, explain yourself properly when you tell other people what to do." He replied, "Why should I explain myself?" and I interpreted as "Why should I explain myself to you?"
I became more angry at the insult -- since it's like I'm not worth explaining to -- and really itched to hit him. Since I couldn't, I vented my anger by kicking walls and taking a long walk.

So, either you:
1) comply before he gets angry. Otherwise... But there are also such moments when LSI suddenly flashes with fury – during these moments he finds it difficult to control himself.
2) pretend to take him seriously and comply, a simple "Yessir" will suffice. Just don't wave him off or even avoid eye contact, or he'll be provoked into assertion through raising his voice.
3) tell him that you're willing to discuss the matter a different time, when both parties are calmer, and ask him if you guys could arrange another time. Do not say "That isn't required" or "That isn't necessary". He thinks it's necessary, and he will not stop at any disagreements until he gets you to realize that and do what he wants you to do. Also:

He may assume that another’s simple disagreement with his opinion is an encroachment upon his status and immediately attack the position of the supposed aggressor.

4) employ distraction tactics like the ones vague mentioned. Same for ISFjs:

The obstinacy of [ESI] has been proverbial. If she is resolved on something - then not even a tank will budge her. In this state any exhortations will bounce off her as if from the wall pea. She can respond to the use of force even more strongly. It is best not to lead situation to the opposition.

The only method to easily and rapidly remove her from the paroxysm of obstinacy - joke or the sharp, unexpected change of its attention: “A in you milk ran out…” To be frank: this “distraction” method is fairly complicated and does not always work. They can only be successfully used by [LIE], [ESI]’s dual: he will be able to defuse situation by joke and assume “the narrative” after himself.

Him (getting louder): (pause, slightly taken aback) Yea, you get the hell out of here!.
If I were him, I'd feel trumped by your announcement. He probably didn't mean this, but was trying to regain the upper hand and his wounded pride at all costs... And to cover up the immediate hurt that he felt to your betrayal by ensuring the last word for himself (in the words of Stratievsky: "Sensorik!"). I mean, how could you decide to move out on your own, without a single warning or explanation? It's like you'd been sneakily scheming behind me; it's like I mean nothing to you. I myself would much prefer people to be upfront with me and tell me the truth -- no matter how painful -- than keep things hidden from me. He seems to care for you, so I daresay he's berating himself and feeling miserable for saying something he didn't mean in the heat of the moment.

A parting gift:

Sensory subtype appears by more agitated in his behavior and internally more emotional person. It is reticent, but it is very obstinate and it can enter the conflict, when they are not considered its opinion (so make a show of considering their opinion). If it flares up, it is superfluously sharp and categorical in its statements.
It is restrained, cold, it does not love objections (so don't flat out object, act obedient, and be all "oh, ok" unless you can sound confident in your rightness when you argue your opinion) and long explanations. Constantly unnoticeably it follows the actions of others, trying soak to them or the errors. It is sometimes agitated by anything and observations are made, sometimes undertakes for the matter itself or tries soak to make it better without the excess words. By periods it attempts to correct position and then smiles preuvelichenno politely. With walking "is stamped" the step. Gait is sufficiently rapid. He appears by man pulled and active. It dresses conservative, although sometimes it attempts to appear aesthetically, even it is fashionable. With the conversation he tries to approach the collocutor, but without the direct contact. It is not inclined to the affectionate rotation even with the relatives.

[Creepy-bg]

you are a very intense girl Raisonpure... keep up the good work :wink:

[raisonpure]

you are a very intense girl Raisonpure... keep up the good work :wink:

Keep up the randomness, too :wink:

[tempral]

Is that really related to quadra values...? I think most people that are stressed-out tend to be like that.

[UDP]

He interprets a calm demeanor as a refusal to fully acknowledge the issue at hand.

Brilliant -- because he's wired to react to an ENFj. That's one thing that's very difficult for some types to relate to.

Mhm... I'll have to keep that in mind.

and what raisonpure said as well

[Blaze]

that isn't required

that is so intj lol

wouldn't bother me though

[Gilly]

My LSI roommate made me want to throw fine china at children even more than Joy. He tried to take up 3/4 of the room with the excuse that he was from China and hence had to have all of his earthly possesions in our room. Move out; if it's about space, they don't listen.

[ScarlettLux]

I love when LSIs get pissed off. It makes me feel all furbly inside

[ataronchronon]

Wow, this is disturbingly familiar...

Thanks for the advice. I know you're trying to help, but I really have no interest in bringing peace back. For too long I have said, "yessir" and I'm tired of it. He has some serious issues and I'm pretty much done with talking to him. When I said "we're leaving" I didn't mean moving out, just that we're leaving. I came back later that night and he was asleep. I'm going to move out soon, but I haven't told him. I refuse to get into a shouting match with him, mostly because I'm really bad at it. It's like living with a dictator, I'm not really allowed to disagree with anything and if I do, my reasoning is never good enough for him. He always pulls the "common sense" card, which is just a way of saying "you're wrong no matter what," so I don't bother disagreeing with him and circumvent him instead. Yes, it's going "behind his back" but I don't see any other way. Not only is he a dictator, but he's like a militant dictator and I'm waging a guerilla war on his ass. What's better is that our mutual friends know what's happening and they have my side. He is not an admirable man, he has a lot of issues that have little to do with type (as far as I know). The dictator analogy works so well in this case because he is about to get deposed by his former allies after becoming too unreasonable and controlling.

Thanks for the help though.

I love when LSIs get pissed off. It makes me feel all furbly inside

And it's so easy! Who would've known that my natural aversion to Se would make me so effective at it? Seriously though, we've gotten into arguments before and I always react the same way, stone faced and quiet. He really doesn't like it. Maybe I'm just good at pissing everyone off, which I've heard INTjs are.

My LSI roommate made me want to throw fine china at children even more than Joy. He tried to take up 3/4 of the room with the excuse that he was from China and hence had to have all of his earthly possesions in our room. Move out; if it's about space, they don't listen.

Spot on! Right now he has 3 boxes of soda, 5 half-gallon containers of juice and a gallon of milk in the fridge. All for himself. I've brought up things like this to him before, when he stocked the fridge with something like 16 32 oz. gatorades, that he doesn't need to take up half the fridge with things he is going to take several weeks to drink. Like instead of having 3 boxes of soda, have only 6 cans in the fridge at a time, but he doesn't listen--at all.

He interprets a calm demeanor as a refusal to fully acknowledge the issue at hand.

Brilliant -- because he's wired to react to an ENFj. That's one thing that's very difficult for some types to relate to.

Question -- since I'm wired to react to ESFj, would that go doubly for me? I've always regarded an aggressive or otherwise emotionally demonstrative demeanor as one of weakness and ignorance, or that is what I think I've been doing. Maybe ESFjs do things differently, I haven't been around very many of them.

[Gilly]

Well, ESEs are VERY demonstrative emotionally, which would be reflected in a situation like this, but definitely not pushy or overly intense.

[Exodus]

I know exactly what you mean; my mother is ISTj. The best solution is of course to move out, but if you really do take the time to confront him things might get better for a while, as ISTjs respect (if not like) people who are willing to bitch them out in return. Good luck.

[aestrivex]

Well, ESEs are VERY demonstrative emotionally, which would be reflected in a situation like this, but definitely not pushy or overly intense.

ESEs are the most pushy creatures on the planet.

[UDP]

I love when LSIs get pissed off. It makes me feel all furbly inside

Not that such LSIs are "rare finds"..... they're all over the place. But if for some reason you don't find one someday, just let me know. I know a slew of irrate, overly dramatic LSIs who undoubtedly need you as much as they make you feel furbly inside. Kowtow away.

[UDP]

I recently had an argument with my LSI roommate. I need to get out, fast, but here is how it went:

Him: I don't understand you.
Me (cooly): That isn't required.
Him (angrily): Every time she comes over here, you do something like this.
Me (still cooly): That's why we're leaving.
Him (getting louder): (pause, slightly taken aback) Yea, you get the hell out of here!.
Me (calmly to the girl): Let's go
Him: *now yelling, but I wasn't really listening. He was really angry though.*

What the argument/fight was about is irrelevant because he has anger problems. We've had arguments before and he gets really angry and starts yelling, but I don't like getting angry or yelling, so I stay very neutral and talk very calmly to him, but this only makes him more angry. This fits in with the quadra description of betas hating emotional indifference--the less I reacted, the more visibly angry he became. Nothing against betas, of course--I've known some very cool ones. This one just has some serious anger problems.

I just want to say, fellow LII, that I know how it is.

[FDG]

My LSI roommate made me want to throw fine china at children even more than Joy. He tried to take up 3/4 of the room with the excuse that he was from China and hence had to have all of his earthly possesions in our room. Move out; if it's about space, they don't listen.

Just throw his things out without asking, and break some of them in the meanwhile. There is no worse thing on earth you can do to an ISTj other than breaking an object of his, lolololololol

This said, sometimes they just don't understand when they are being intrusive. When my father is at home and I'm working he sometimes places "demands" on me, once I ignore, if he keeps on doing it, I have learnt to throw a fit of anger. The only problem is that I end up wasting a lot of time with the argument, so after 20 seconds I tell him "look we're wasting too much time" and close the door.

I don't really like this stuff, I feel like laughing when I am forced to get angry.

[Exodus]

Well, ESEs are VERY demonstrative emotionally, which would be reflected in a situation like this, but definitely not pushy or overly intense.

I think Ti dominance gives one a certain kind of intenseness.

[UDP]

Wow, this is disturbingly familiar...

Thanks for the advice. I know you're trying to help, but I really have no interest in bringing peace back. For too long I have said, "yessir" and I'm tired of it. He has some serious issues and I'm pretty much done with talking to him. When I said "we're leaving" I didn't mean moving out, just that we're leaving. I came back later that night and he was asleep. I'm going to move out soon, but I haven't told him. I refuse to get into a shouting match with him, mostly because I'm really bad at it. It's like living with a dictator, I'm not really allowed to disagree with anything and if I do, my reasoning is never good enough for him. He always pulls the "common sense" card, which is just a way of saying "you're wrong no matter what," so I don't bother disagreeing with him and circumvent him instead. Yes, it's going "behind his back" but I don't see any other way. Not only is he a dictator, but he's like a militant dictator and I'm waging a guerilla war on his ass. What's better is that our mutual friends know what's happening and they have my side. He is not an admirable man, he has a lot of issues that have little to do with type (as far as I know). The dictator analogy works so well in this case because he is about to get deposed by his former allies after becoming too unreasonable and controlling.

He's an ass. Don't worry about it.

I know an LSI like this, but he is much older, and worse off. He's ruined marriages, and lost NUMEROUS promotions because of his shitty interpersonal skills, and disparate issues. He's one of those people who is so very superficially nice, and knows everyone they come across, but really, they are a completely insecure individual who allows it to manifest into crazy, insane control issues.

This is no healthy LSI, this is someone with severe issues. And because they cannot dare to seem themselves as wrong in anyway, they just let their problems grow inside of them. It's quite a waste IMO.

I love when LSIs get pissed off. It makes me feel all furbly inside

And it's so easy! Who would've known that my natural aversion to Se would make me so effective at it? Seriously though, we've gotten into arguments before and I always react the same way, stone faced and quiet. He really doesn't like it. Maybe I'm just good at pissing everyone off, which I've heard INTjs are.

(Squall definitely isn't an LSI as I said before. He isn't irrational either. He's LII)
Anyway, yes, this is who you are. You have the same knowledge of structure and ability to critique as the LSI, but you manifest it differently. You should be careful, though, as you can become just as clouded as the LSI if you are not careful.

My LSI roommate made me want to throw fine china at children even more than Joy. He tried to take up 3/4 of the room with the excuse that he was from China and hence had to have all of his earthly possesions in our room. Move out; if it's about space, they don't listen.

Spot on! Right now he has 3 boxes of soda, 5 half-gallon containers of juice and a gallon of milk in the fridge. All for himself. I've brought up things like this to him before, when he stocked the fridge with something like 16 32 oz. gatorades, that he doesn't need to take up half the fridge with things he is going to take several weeks to drink. Like instead of having 3 boxes of soda, have only 6 cans in the fridge at a time, but he doesn't listen--at all.

He interprets a calm demeanor as a refusal to fully acknowledge the issue at hand.

Brilliant -- because he's wired to react to an ENFj. That's one thing that's very difficult for some types to relate to.

Question -- since I'm wired to react to ESFj, would that go doubly for me? I've always regarded an aggressive or otherwise emotionally demonstrative demeanor as one of weakness and ignorance, or that is what I think I've been doing. Maybe ESFjs do things differently, I haven't been around very many of them.

[/quote]
Good call.

It makes me think of Alpha/Beta differences.
LSIs prefer drama and "right-wrong"ness, which involves Se and someone (else) losing
LII can have a lean towards being much more neutral.

But it is clear that you are of a healthier state than your room mate, regardless of type.

I honestly do not know what to say about LSIs when they get this way. Any real advice, let me know. Hopefully your mate learns how to get over his issues before he ends up like the LSI I mentioned at the opening of this post. It may be easier to change now than 5, 10, 20 years down the road...

[UDP]

My LSI roommate made me want to throw fine china at children even more than Joy. He tried to take up 3/4 of the room with the excuse that he was from China and hence had to have all of his earthly possesions in our room. Move out; if it's about space, they don't listen.

Just throw his things out without asking, and break some of them in the meanwhile. There is no worse thing on earth you can do to an ISTj other than breaking an object of his, lolololololol

This said, sometimes they just don't understand when they are being intrusive. When my father is at home and I'm working he sometimes places "demands" on me, once I ignore, if he keeps on doing it, I have learnt to throw a fit of anger. The only problem is that I end up wasting a lot of time with the argument, so after 20 seconds I tell him "look we're wasting too much time" and close the door.I don't really like this stuff, I feel like laughing when I am forced to get angry.

I'll have to suggest that one

[FDG]

My LSI roommate made me want to throw fine china at children even more than Joy. He tried to take up 3/4 of the room with the excuse that he was from China and hence had to have all of his earthly possesions in our room. Move out; if it's about space, they don't listen.

Just throw his things out without asking, and break some of them in the meanwhile. There is no worse thing on earth you can do to an ISTj other than breaking an object of his, lolololololol

This said, sometimes they just don't understand when they are being intrusive. When my father is at home and I'm working he sometimes places "demands" on me, once I ignore, if he keeps on doing it, I have learnt to throw a fit of anger. The only problem is that I end up wasting a lot of time with the argument, so after 20 seconds I tell him "look we're wasting too much time" and close the door.I don't really like this stuff, I feel like laughing when I am forced to get angry.

I'll have to suggest that one

But if you don't get angry they'll believe they are right. I understand that right/wrong is pointless in this situation, but on the long term it's necessary to imprint the notion that they are always wrong.

[implied]

My LSI roommate made me want to throw fine china at children even more than Joy. He tried to take up 3/4 of the room with the excuse that he was from China and hence had to have all of his earthly possesions in our room. Move out; if it's about space, they don't listen.

Just throw his things out without asking, and break some of them in the meanwhile. There is no worse thing on earth you can do to an ISTj other than breaking an object of his, lolololololol

omg no joke! i have seen my sister (ENFj!) do this in fits of anger as "punishment" for whoever pisses her off! she's so geared for an ISTj it's amazing! she's also constantly going on about how you shouldn't touch other people's belongings!

but i agree with FDG completely. they will never figure out that they are wrong unless they have some visible "punishment." trying to reconcile like that just makes them madder. not that i am seriously condoning fighting, but really.

[UDP]

My LSI roommate made me want to throw fine china at children even more than Joy. He tried to take up 3/4 of the room with the excuse that he was from China and hence had to have all of his earthly possesions in our room. Move out; if it's about space, they don't listen.

Just throw his things out without asking, and break some of them in the meanwhile. There is no worse thing on earth you can do to an ISTj other than breaking an object of his, lolololololol

This said, sometimes they just don't understand when they are being intrusive. When my father is at home and I'm working he sometimes places "demands" on me, once I ignore, if he keeps on doing it, I have learnt to throw a fit of anger. The only problem is that I end up wasting a lot of time with the argument, so after 20 seconds I tell him "look we're wasting too much time" and close the door.I don't really like this stuff, I feel like laughing when I am forced to get angry.

I'll have to suggest that one

But if you don't get angry they'll believe they are right. I understand that right/wrong is pointless in this situation, but on the long term it's necessary to imprint the notion that they are always wrong.

Hmm.... so dealing with an ISTj is a lot like breaking in an aggressive dog, huh.


PS: Damn, I didn't even see this when I wrote my post --

My LSI roommate made me want to throw fine china at children even more than Joy. He tried to take up 3/4 of the room with the excuse that he was from China and hence had to have all of his earthly possesions in our room. Move out; if it's about space, they don't listen.

Just throw his things out without asking, and break some of them in the meanwhile. There is no worse thing on earth you can do to an ISTj other than breaking an object of his, lolololololol

omg no joke! i have seen my sister (ENFj!) do this in fits of anger as "punishment" for whoever pisses her off! she's so geared for an ISTj it's amazing! she's also constantly going on about how you shouldn't touch other people's belongings!

but i agree with FDG completely. they will never figure out that they are wrong unless they have some visible "punishment." trying to reconcile like that just makes them madder. not that i am seriously condoning fighting, but really.

Voice tone, taking away the dog's bone, treats to reward it -- it actually makes sense.

[UDP]

Well, ESEs are VERY demonstrative emotionally, which would be reflected in a situation like this, but definitely not pushy or overly intense.

ESEs are the most pushy creatures on the planet.

They have never been pushy towards me (seriously)

[olduser]

that's cause you don't know ESE from the hole in your ass.

[Creepy-bg]

that's cause you don't know ESE from the hole in your ass.

I think it's generally considered bad form to try to dualize with your asshole

[raisonpure]

My LSI roommate made me want to throw fine china at children even more than Joy. He tried to take up 3/4 of the room with the excuse that he was from China and hence had to have all of his earthly possesions in our room. Move out; if it's about space, they don't listen.

Just throw his things out without asking, and break some of them in the meanwhile. There is no worse thing on earth you can do to an ISTj other than breaking an object of his, lolololololol

This said, sometimes they just don't understand when they are being intrusive. When my father is at home and I'm working he sometimes places "demands" on me, once I ignore, if he keeps on doing it, I have learnt to throw a fit of anger. The only problem is that I end up wasting a lot of time with the argument, so after 20 seconds I tell him "look we're wasting too much time" and close the door.I don't really like this stuff, I feel like laughing when I am forced to get angry.

I'll have to suggest that one

Word.

My heart goes out to him.

[stevENTj]

Great thread. I know multiple LSI's with these same issues, and am also trying to find ways to deal with them. Once I put on my best ENFj act and an irate ISTj perked right up, but with an Fe PoLR that's obviously not something I can really do.

LSI's need a very orderly and structured environment to be calm. The last company I worked for was a pretty well oiled machine, different teams all worked together pretty seamlessly, and you could always get the information that you needed. The LSI's there were pretty pleasant people. At my current company, LOL. LSI's go crazy here, literally.

[Reuben]

It's damn fun to have an ISTj in your house.

They are like little houseflies that fight the doubt of their existence by pressing their bugly Ti legs onto you.

All they require is someone to tell them that they exist.

SO I SHOUT AT THEM AND TELL THEM THAT EVERYTHING IN THE WORLD IS MY FAULT AND EXCLUSIVELY MY FAULT AND YES YOU ARE RIGHT THE SOUP YOU SPILLED ON THE TABLE IS MY FAULT I SHOULD HAVE CLEANED IT UP IMMEDIATELY BUT I DIDN'T BECAUSE I WAS WRONG AND STUPID AND IGNORANT AND YES YOU ARE ALWAYS RIGHT AND YES OF COURSE SPILLING THE SOUP ON THE TABLE WAS THE RIGHT THING TO DO, KEEP IT UP ISTJ BUGGER.

...

They tend to be the receiving end of my stress relief programs.

[ElliseLinette]

It's damn fun to have an ISTj in your house.

They are like little houseflies that fight the doubt of their existence by pressing their bugly Ti legs onto you.

All they require is someone to tell them that they exist.

Wow! That's amazing! Something as stupid as ignoring him when he tells you to push in your chair will get the poor chair thrown across the room in anger. But seriously, who would let themself be told what to do like that? It's not like he's the parent in the house or anything, and it's certainly not ONLY his house... AND IT'S JUST A CHAIR! He's always looking for a way to boost his ego and he likes to reaffirm it constantly. He thinks so highly of himself and yet he's always saying demeaning things about himself just to have someone boost him back up again. But when you don't play his little game he gets really pissed at you, calls you mean and kicks you out of his car. So much sulking! It's especially irritating when he never apologizes for anything because he's never at fault... I don't think I've heard him seriously apologize for anything... hmmm....

[reyn_til_runa]

(snip)

[ElliseLinette]

Wow, this is disturbingly familiar...

Yes, it's going "behind his back" but I don't see any other way. Not only is he a dictator, but he's like a militant dictator and I'm waging a guerilla war on his ass. What's better is that our mutual friends know what's happening and they have my side. He is not an admirable man, he has a lot of issues that have little to do with type (as far as I know). The dictator analogy works so well in this case because he is about to get deposed by his former allies after becoming too unreasonable and controlling.

Funny thing is, he predicted this happening, he kinda SAW it as it was happening but he didn't make any move to do something about it. For some reason he likes to refer to the friendship our mutual friends have as an empire. I recall him saying "The empire is crumbling, we're all kinda like our own seperate countries, and I have to become a dictator now to put it back together. So the three of you will band together to overthrow me and the empire will be whole again." So if you look at it that way... it's exactly what he wanted only it backfired on him.

[Kristiina]

Reading this thread got me thinking - I know exactly how I'd react in a situation like that.

Him: I don't understand you.
Me: why? I didn't think I was the confusing sort of person. (avoid problem)
Him (angrily): Every time she comes over here, you do something like this.
Me: something like what? Explain! What do you mean? It's perfectly justified, because... Why do you disabree? (solve problem)
Him (getting louder): (pause, slightly taken aback) Yea, you get the hell out of here!.
Me: FINE! (Then I just walk out leaving him somewhat puzzled. Then I'll give him the cold-treatment until he brings it up and tells me what he thinks I did wrong.) (discuss problem, keep it from repeating itself.)

I would NEVER-EVER solve fights by breaking things. Breaking someone elses belongings is something that would be extremely difficult to forgive

I would ask for better treatment for giving up fridge space. Sounds weird, but it's not. "Hey, you're taking up most of the space. We both have equal rights for the refrigirator space. I can agree with having less space there, but I want something in return because it would be fair! What do I get for having less space?"


And this thread made me all sad and I called an ISTj friend to make sure we meet in the near future.

[snegledmaca]

Wow, reading this thread I must really be lucky then. Every LSI I know has been like Al Bundy, funny, laid back, reasonable, intelligent, ok perhaps not selfish or self serving, but normal people that can be reasoned with and are fun to hang out with. The ones described in this thread seem disturbed and to be honest I normally run away from the type of people that are described in this thread. They seem like they need fixing. Which is something I don't do (Unless I want to do it of course)

[ataronchronon]

Hmm.... so dealing with an ISTj is a lot like breaking in an aggressive dog, huh.

Voice tone, taking away the dog's bone, treats to reward it -- it actually makes sense.

That's too much. My PoLR shines here because I can't see myself living with someone that I have to "punish" like a dog, or otherwise constantly fight with. I need to live in a peaceful environment or else I get all bent out of shape--like I am now. dual seeking at its best (or is it HA?). I hate this kind of drama, but I guess some people don't mind it so much.

I almost wish he would try to reconcile so I can seriously chew him out, but the problem with that is I find it seriously hard to forgive someone once they've angered me to the point of yelling. The more anger I show, the more angry I become and the longer I stay angry. Ideally, there would be a peaceful solution that doesn't require me to get angry and start yelling or break some of his things, but that doesn't seem to be the way things work with the LSI. It seems to me that they only listen to or and neither of which is something I'm willing to do at this point.

[FDG]

It's damn fun to have an ISTj in your house.

They are like little houseflies that fight the doubt of their existence by pressing their bugly Ti legs onto you.

All they require is someone to tell them that they exist.

SO I SHOUT AT THEM AND TELL THEM THAT EVERYTHING IN THE WORLD IS MY FAULT AND EXCLUSIVELY MY FAULT AND YES YOU ARE RIGHT THE SOUP YOU SPILLED ON THE TABLE IS MY FAULT I SHOULD HAVE CLEANED IT UP IMMEDIATELY BUT I DIDN'T BECAUSE I WAS WRONG AND STUPID AND IGNORANT AND YES YOU ARE ALWAYS RIGHT AND YES OF COURSE SPILLING THE SOUP ON THE TABLE WAS THE RIGHT THING TO DO, KEEP IT UP ISTJ BUGGER.

...

They tend to be the receiving end of my stress relief programs.

Ah I do the opposite of course, I tell them it's their fault. Anyway my relationship with my father is actually good, our skirmishes are only occasional. Basically, what sneg says is true.

[UDP]

(I have a polr just like Niffweed)

Yeah, I know heath.

[UDP]

Hmm.... so dealing with an ISTj is a lot like breaking in an aggressive dog, huh.

Voice tone, taking away the dog's bone, treats to reward it -- it actually makes sense.

That's too much. My PoLR shines here because I can't see myself living with someone that I have to "punish" like a dog, or otherwise constantly fight with. I need to live in a peaceful environment or else I get all bent out of shape--like I am now. dual seeking at its best (or is it HA?). I hate this kind of drama, but I guess some people don't mind it so much.

I almost wish he would try to reconcile so I can seriously chew him out, but the problem with that is I find it seriously hard to forgive someone once they've angered me to the point of yelling. The more anger I show, the more angry I become and the longer I stay angry. Ideally, there would be a peaceful solution that doesn't require me to get angry and start yelling or break some of his things, but that doesn't seem to be the way things work with the LSI. It seems to me that they only listen to or and neither of which is something I'm willing to do at this point.

I understand where you are coming from. Of course I am also a peace loving man, but I have learned that peace and quiet takes courage. You have to stand up for yourself and assert yourself, otherwise you go into doormat mode....

The second problem of the Analyst is lack of initiative. He often neglects his physical needs, and does not defend his interests unless it directly relates to his principles. However, in defending his principles The Analyst demonstrates outstanding inflexibility. One can break his impertinence only by influencing his softness, which he hides under a mask of haughtiness, but only in the sphere of relations and not ideas or principles.

http://www.socionics.us/socioniko/en...s/dual-1j.html

Because of experience and being in sitations where it was necessary, I have developed less and less issues about going into "principle defense mode", and have managed to develop a finer control of the "take no prisoners" impertinence related to it. I think every LII should practice and learn how to be appropriately angry, and how to deal with it, so it doesn't just build up and stew. Sulking is a huge waste of time. And, while Mr Darcy himself was a model of "...I find it seriously hard to forgive someone once they've angered me to the point of yelling. The more anger I show, the more angry I become and the longer I stay angry", one of the points to that story was that he should have been more open about things, as it would have prevented troubles down the road - for many people, not just himself.

I almost wish he would try to reconcile so I can seriously chew him out, but the problem with that is I find it seriously hard to forgive someone once they've angered me to the point of yelling

Why wait to for him to try to reconcile?

I agree very much with your take on things, but I also feel it is necessary to learn how to deal with people in ways they can understand, even if you have to adapt your methods. I am not saying compromise your principles - or change who you are (someone who desires peace and calm)-, but rather, be sure to know how to be properly and effectively angry for the times when you need it. It is just a tool. Consider it an act, or a work related task. If you know what you are doing, you can still be calm on the inside.

PS: For a sort of reference point, observe how Picard from star trek can become "angry" with someone without losing his presence or composure. Or watch the Darcy clips in "Fi Severity" in alpha. Those are some examples, and you may not even need them or use what I say in this post, though it seems this aspect should be addressed in some way.

[force my hand]

What the argument/fight was about is irrelevant because he has anger problems.

He may have severe anger issues, but I call foul on the first part of that sentence.

It takes two people to have conflict, and both are usually at fault to some degree.