INTp and ISFj activity relations (ILI-ESI)

[Joy]

I wrote this in another thread...

In an ENTj/ISFj relationship, the ISFj voices his/her concerns about the various options available and their possible outcomes, and the ENTj happily provides an in depth analysis of what would most likely happen in each situation and how things could be handled in each situation if something went wrong. The ENTj addresses the ISFj's concerns about the likelihood of various things going wrong in different situations and then narrows down and simplifies the options. "If we do A, then B will probably happen. C could happen, but it's unlikely because of D, and even if it does happen we can always E. If we do F, there's a good chance that G or H could happen, which wouldn't be so bad, but the problem with that is that we'd also have to deal with I... The question is, do we want to E or to have to deal with I? Chances are we wouldn't even have to E anyways..." When presented with this type of information, the ISFj can either confidently make a decision about what should be done, state what (s)he thinks should be done and leaves the decision up to the ENTj (but wants an answer right away), or asks the ENTj what (s)he thinks they should do and then confidently accepts the ENTj's advice. Generally speaking, the ISFj is the one who is ultimately responsible for seeing that decisions are made one way or another because the ENTj doesn't have the same sense of urgency about finalizing specifics and actually taking the steps required to implement his/her ideas, though (s)he really wishes (s)he did. The ENTj is very appreciative that the ISFj pushes him/her this way.

INTps aren't as willing to put forth this type of effort... when the ISFj tries to ask the INTp what they should do, the INTp says "You decide." In an ESFp/INTp relationship, the ESFp would be more than willing to make decisions and would do so with little hesitation. The INTp would be there to criticize what the ESFp is deciding, and then the ESFp would appreciatively revise his/her decisions based on the INTp's input. Generally speaking, the ESFp is the one who is ultimately responsible for seeing that decisions are made one way or another and pushing plans forward because the INTp doesn't have any sense of urgency about finalizing specifics and actually taking the steps required to implement either of their ideas.

How I've seen this translate into an INTp/ISFj relationship is the ISFj asking the INTp what they should do, and the INTp saying "You decide." The ISFj stresses out and doesn't know what to do and is frustrated that (s)he's not getting all of the input (s)he needs from the INTp in order to make the decision... when it comes to finalizing specifics and actually taking the steps required to implement ideas, the ISFj can't do what (s)he does best because (s)he doesn't feel (s)he has the information necessary to make decisions. After a great deal of stressing out, the ISFj finally makes a decision on his/her own. At this point the INTp casually offers criticism on the ISFj's decision... I'm sure you can imagine how frustrating this is for the ISFj, who is then even more upset that the INTp didn't offer any input or help him/her make that decision in the first place and doesn't wish to go through the whole stressful process again to come to a new decision on his/her own, only to have the INTp criticize it again.

From the INTp's perspective, I could see how the ISFj's demands for more input before the ISFj is even anywhere near making a decision could seem like nagging or excessive worrying since (s)he'd rather his partner come up with these things on his/her own, at which point the INTp could begin to pick the "plan" apart, assuming that his/her partner appreciated his/her input and didn't take the criticism too personally. The INTp appreciates abundant initiative and doesn't mind that there are plenty of flaws that need to be worked out.

Obviously there's more to the relationship than this... activity relations are one of the most favorable relations and the description I just wrote sounds pretty megative. Perhaps one of the INTps who's with or has been with an ISFj can offer input.

[eunice]

How I've seen this translate into an INTp/ISFj relationship is the ISFj asking the INTp what they should do, and the INTp saying "You decide." The ISFj stresses out and doesn't know what to do and is frustrated that (s)he's not getting all of the input (s)he needs from the INTp in order to make the decision... when it comes to finalizing specifics and actually taking the steps required to implement ideas, the ISFj can't do what (s)he does best because (s)he doesn't feel (s)he has the information necessary to make decisions. After a great deal of stressing out, the ISFj finally makes a decision on his/her own. At this point the INTp casually offers criticism on the ISFj's decision... I'm sure you can imagine how frustrating this is for the ISFj, who is then even more upset that the INTp didn't offer any input or help him/her make that decision in the first place and doesn't wish to go through the whole stressful process again to come to a new decision on his/her own, only to have the INTp criticize it again.

From the INTp's perspective, I could see how the ISFj's demands for more input before the ISFj is even anywhere near making a decision could seem like nagging or excessive worrying since (s)he'd rather his partner come up with these things on his/her own, at which point the INTp could begin to pick the "plan" apart, assuming that his/her partner appreciated his/her input and didn't take the criticism too personally. The INTp appreciates abundant initiative and doesn't mind that there are plenty of flaws that need to be worked out.

This is EXACTLY how my parents usually interact, and I thought it is very annoying.

[Jonathan]

Personally, I think this thread is making INTp, and the INTp-ISFj relationship out to be more dysfunctional than it is. Activity is still dual-like and works well with a lot of people. This thing about INTps not putting in any intellectual effort and just saying "you decide" doesn't seem true-to-life to me. It may be more like ISFp, actually, with a desire to avoid the thinking part and just wanting to do things and have fun.

INTps like to do exactly the kind of thing that you mentioned ENTjs doing; but with crea-T, they're actually more likely to suggest a particular solution (at least provisionally). However, they will leave preferential decisions to the ISFj (i.e., what kind of food do you feel like to today?), which suits the ISFj just fine. Also, INTps tend to let their partner initiate action; INTp provides the analysis and solutions.

Where ISFjs may sometimes get annoyed with INTps is that INTps have a harder time than ENTjs with doing the right thing at the right time, being organized and ready, etc.

[FDG]

I propose another interpretation based on what I've observed: INTps lack extraversion. ISFj-INTp couples tend to become stagnant in doing the same things over and over because neither party has the ability/interest towards the typical extraversion-positivist kind of stuff...an example is that usually if you ask and ISFj to go somewhere new place you are going to hear a lot of words regarding what-ifs...no INTp I have known has been able to bounce off the objections and just keep insisting ignoring everything that is said. This said, the relationship is not bad per se, but the "problems" I have listed are unsolvable. Of course if say, both parties have some very Extraverted friends that are able to involve them in new activities, then everything's well.
Basically though, what I have described is the usual interaction between IxTx-IxFx.

I think there should be a defocus on the concetration of these type description towards "work". The mechanisms that compose the "leisure" part are more often than not left off.

Johnatan: in my experience, ISFjs don't actually care that much if you are organized or not in the sense of "orderly". Usually it's ESFjs that are more painstaking in regard to that.

[Jonathan]

I propose another interpretation based on what I've observed: INTps lack extraversion. ISFj-INTp couples tend to become stagnant in doing the same things over and over because neither party has the ability/interest towards the typical extraversion-positivist kind of stuff...an example is that usually if you ask and ISFj to go somewhere new place you are going to hear a lot of words regarding what-ifs...no INTp I have known has been able to bounce off the objections and just keep insisting ignoring everything that is said. This said, the relationship is not bad per se, but the "problems" I have listed are unsolvable. Of course if say, both parties have some very Extraverted friends that are able to involve them in new activities, then everything's well.
Basically though, what I have described is the usual interaction between IxTx-IxFx.

I think there should be a defocus on the concetration of these type description towards "work". The mechanisms that compose the "leisure" part are more often than not left off.

Johnatan: in my experience, ISFjs don't actually care that much if you are organized or not in the sense of "orderly". Usually it's ESFjs that are more painstaking in regard to that.

What's wrong with just staying in?

Actually, I think even with ISFj-INTp, there are some factors that can drive towards getting out. The ISFj, with Se, wants to go on vacations and adventures sometimes. The INTp, with Te, recognizes the need to sometimes get out of one's comfort zone for career-enhancing and goal-enhancing purposes.

But I agree with you...with two introverts, if one says "let's just stay in and read," the other will probably agree that that's a great idea.

In my experience, ISFjs don't want to live with a total, incorrigible, complete, unreformable slob. But maybe they're more tolerant of a little mess than ESFjs? I wouldn't know. I think ISFjs put a lot of emphasis on intentions....They're willing to put up with a lot if a person is willing to respond favorably to their requests.

[FDG]

I propose another interpretation based on what I've observed: INTps lack extraversion. ISFj-INTp couples tend to become stagnant in doing the same things over and over because neither party has the ability/interest towards the typical extraversion-positivist kind of stuff...an example is that usually if you ask and ISFj to go somewhere new place you are going to hear a lot of words regarding what-ifs...no INTp I have known has been able to bounce off the objections and just keep insisting ignoring everything that is said. This said, the relationship is not bad per se, but the "problems" I have listed are unsolvable. Of course if say, both parties have some very Extraverted friends that are able to involve them in new activities, then everything's well.
Basically though, what I have described is the usual interaction between IxTx-IxFx.

I think there should be a defocus on the concetration of these type description towards "work". The mechanisms that compose the "leisure" part are more often than not left off.

Johnatan: in my experience, ISFjs don't actually care that much if you are organized or not in the sense of "orderly". Usually it's ESFjs that are more painstaking in regard to that.

What's wrong with just staying in?

It gets boring after a while, but there's nothing technically wrong of course.

Actually, I think even with ISFj-INTp, there are some factors that can drive towards getting out. The ISFj, with Se, wants to go on vacations and adventures sometimes. The INTp, with Te, recognizes the need to sometimes get out of one's comfort zone for career-enhancing and goal-enhancing purposes.

But I agree with you...with two introverts, if one says "let's just stay in and read," the other will probably agree that that's a great idea.

In my experience, ISFjs don't want to live with a total, incorrigible, complete slob. But maybe they're more tolerant of a little mess than ESFjs? I wouldn't know.

My line of thinking was more on the day-to-day basis of the relationship, but I can see your point as being true and as softening the impact of my objection. However goal-enhancing purposes?? Why not just for having fun?

ISFjs don't like complete slobbiness but they are decently tolerant of it provided that it doesn't apply to all the areas of life. Basically, if the mess is "passive" (ex. you don't put the things you have used in order), they are fine with it; however if you actively go on your way to make your surroundings more disorderly, they can get pissed.

ESFjs are just anal about having everything super clean, ime.

[KSpin]

My girlfriend (ISFj) and I (INTp) are always deferring decisions to each other. In the end I'll just throw suggestions at her, and ask her how she feels about them. For instance, trying to decide where to go to get food.

She asks me where we want to go, so I reply that I don't mind. She just sighs and shakes her head, and says that she doesn't know where to go either.
In the end I tell her: I've had fish and chips the day before, so I'd rather not have it again the following day. So, we can either get a pizza, or you get fish and chips and I'll get something when we get home.

In the end we got pizza.

Oh, and she doesn't -seem- to mind my messy room, too much.

[stevENTj]

Personally, I think this thread is making INTp, and the INTp-ISFj relationship out to be more dysfunctional than it is. Activity is still dual-like and works well with a lot of people. This thing about INTps not putting in any intellectual effort and just saying "you decide" doesn't seem true-to-life to me. It may be more like ISFp, actually, with a desire to avoid the thinking part and just wanting to do things and have fun.

I agree completely. My mom is ISFp and CANNOT make decisions for her life. By the time she gets around to deciding anything it's either right down to the wire or the opportunity already passed.

I can make decisions just fine as long as it's within my Ni-Te realm, like a long-term investment strategy, deciding which car or home to buy, or anything else with a big picture Te logic with an effect over time (Ni). Ask me where to go to eat or a lot of other mundane day-to-day stuff and I'm helpless. That's where the ISFj shines.

INTps like to do exactly the kind of thing that you mentioned ENTjs doing; but with crea-T, they're actually more likely to suggest a particular solution (at least provisionally). However, they will leave preferential decisions to the ISFj (i.e., what kind of food do you feel like to today?), which suits the ISFj just fine. Also, INTps tend to let their partner initiate action; INTp provides the analysis and solutions.

Yes. Like I said in the other post, greatly simplifying, the main difference between an ENTj and an INTp is that an INTp mainly "talks" about doing things whereas an ENTj just goes out and does them. But also like I stated in the other thread, an INTp can "talk" faster than an ENTj can "do", and this can overstimulate the ISFj since they'll think they need to protect the INTp from everything they're saying, assuming they're actually going to "do" all of that like an ENTj would with the same "j" rhythm as the ISFj. Except that INTp's are mostly all talk so there's no reason for the ISFj to be alarmed. The easy solution is to just not share 100% of your thoughts and perceptions. Maybe 25-50% is fine. The rest just keep to yourself or yack it up with some friends instead.

Where ISFjs may sometimes get annoyed with INTps is that INTps have a harder time than ENTjs with doing the right thing at the right time, being organized and ready, etc.

Yep, also very true. My wife will wake up early Saturday morning with a huge chore list and talk about how we have to "DO" this and "DO" that. They always need to be DOING something whereas the INTp likes to have a lot of free time to let their minds drift and wander. I try to kick butt with the chore list junk on Saturdays so that I can have Sunday free and not do jack shit.


Sometimes my wife gets overwhelmed and just wants me to take charge, which is fine too. I'm an ENTj half the time anyways. :wink:

[stevENTj]

My girlfriend (ISFj) and I (INTp) are always deferring decisions to each other. In the end I'll just throw suggestions at her, and ask her how she feels about them. For instance, trying to decide where to go to get food.

Occasionally my wife likes to playfully engage in guessing games with me, where I have to guess what she wants to do or where she wants to go. She might not know herself so I just start offering suggestions. Sometimes she still can't decide so I just pick something (anything). At times she doesn't care, but just doesn't want to be the one making the decision. In that case any decision you make is right since all she wants you to do is just make the decision.

[Jonathan]

@steveENTj...

Yes, I agree with everything there. In the past, I had doubted that we're similar, but in this post, it seems your reactions and experiences are very similar to mine.

@KSpin:

Aren't there times where your girlfriend relishes being able to decide about those preferential things? In my experience, ISFjs know very well that they feel like a having certain kind of food, or want a certain dress, or want to go a certain place. I figured that's typical of acc-Fi....and accentuated with Se. Understanding why they feel a certain way, how to attain these very definite desires, or determining which ones are more feasible or make sense regarding long-term consequences and strategy, may be areas that they may need help with, however.

In contrast, I've found INFps to be far more indecisive. In my experience, they're usually the ones who don't know what they want to do or where they want to go, and who are most likely to have lots of reasons not to go anywhere and need someone to convince them to try it. That's why INp comparative relationships can sometimes be frustrating...There, you basically have two indecisive people who don't know how to move things forward in an Se way, although they do share a lot in common.

[KSpin]

I asked her whether she had an idea in her head what she wanted to do, but just wasn't tell me what it is. She told me that was the case. I only found this out recently, so now I just ask her what she -really- wants to do.

[Jonathan]

I asked her whether she had an idea in her head what she wanted to do, but just wasn't tell me what it is. She told me that was the case. I only found this out recently, so now I just ask her what she -really- wants to do.

Yeah, that's a good a strategy. Just because someone doesn't say what he/she wants doesn't mean that there's no preference.

[Khola aka Bee]

Help? I'm sick and tired of everyone hurting. I care about my parents, I want to get along with them as well. In which ways can I modify by behaviour around them to make things more harmonious, get my point across without confusion and generally make things nicer when it comes to living in the same house with them?

Behaviour modifications by the SEI for the ILI: *insert here*

Behaviour modifications by the SEI for the ESI: *insert here*

Please help me here before we end up really having a decent fight in this house. I can't stand it! I know a lot of the fights stem from me not being able to stop myself from stepping in and biting back when one of them takes a pot shot ethically at another family member (ILI), but most of the time I'm at a complete loss to what has caused the issue and I can't make anything better. In fact, the more I try, the worse it gets. What should I do?!?

[Joy]

Give your attention to the things you want to see more of. Don't give your attention to the things you want to see less of.

[Joy]

The only thing that has worked for me with unhealthy Deltas is just overall mental health and wellness for myself. Like inner peace and calm and willingness to just let them say what they will but not really care about how they view me. Like to not let it be a reflection of reality I will have to defend myself and others from.

It's best to just have as many positive experiences as you can and when you're feeling negative leave and let it out on someone who understands you before you explode. If you get used to doing that you can perhaps have more positive interactions. Because if the stress has died down, you--and they--can learn to look over hurtful things more easily.

Because I've learned there's somethings some people will simply never understand, and they will always act in ways that are a little hurtful. The point is just to give yourself a break so you can be positive towards them.

Excellent advice. (A lot of what you said here is actually part of the reasoning behind my post.)

[Exodus]

Move out of their house as soon as possible (or sooner). That will help a lot.

Most definitely...this is one of the reasons why college is such a liberating experience.

[Khola aka Bee]

I would if I wasn't going through separation as well. Right now I want company above all else. Thanks for your suggestions

[crazedrat]

Give your attention to the things you want to see more of. Don't give your attention to the things you want to see less of.

it's called ti-ignoring. she can tell you all about it

[Adam Strange]

*bump*

Well, it's happened again. I ran into my third ESI-ILI couple.

There is a female teller at my bank who is always extra nice to me and who seems to be subtly trying to interact just a bit more with me, her dual. She is ESI-Fi and is on her way to managing the tellers, but she's not there just yet. I think she's a very nice person, but she is not my Imago by a long shot. She is also always nice and smiley and polite and moderately upbeat to everyone, but I get a sense of very hidden tragedy from her somehow.

It was a slow day and I was the only customer in the bank. Another teller, a perky, sharp, and interested female ILE, thanked me for previously giving her a link to ILE-SEI duality relationships and said she actually read them and she likes Socionics much, much better than MBTI because it described her characteristics perfectly. (She's into the type descriptions phase and hasn't reached the ITR descriptions phase.)

The ESI-Fi chimed in and asked about duality, and I told her that duals are people who share all the brain functions that separate us from rocks, except in reversed strengths, so duals are in the best position to help each other get stronger. Then I told her that I was probably her dual, and she took in this information without blinking. I started to describe myself in socionics terms, and she said "That sounds exactly like my boy friend."

I asked her if she had a picture of him, and she immediately produced one on her phone of the two of them smiling into the camera. The guy actually looked like me when I was about 25.

She said, "So you're ENTJ, and the T is for Thinking, and what's the other stuff mean?"

"E is for Extrovert, N is for..."

"Oh, he's definitely an Introvert. He's a programmer."

"I looked introverted until I was about 25, and then Bam, Adam Meets the World."

"No, he's really introverted. He sometimes just sits for days in front of the computer and won't go out."

"Hmmmm, well, according to the cosmic scheme that is described by the cult I'm in, you guys are Activity partners. If you want to improve your relationship, just go somewhere with him. Do stuff with him. With my own Activity partner, I want to take her to the ball game, or canoeing, or to an outdoor cookout."

She looked really sad. "I try. I really do. I want to go out, but I can't get him to take me anywhere. Except maybe once in a while."

"Well then, just be ready to go out anytime he wants to go. You guys will have a great time, and your relationship will get better."

She hesitated and then looked at me. "You know what the bad part is? He only goes out when he wants to go out. Never when I want to go out." And I reflected on the way that SEE's are persistently insistent towards getting the ILI's to do what they want, and how ESI's just can't match that level of Se.

And so it goes. Another ESI-ILI couple.

[Adam Strange]

I went back to the bank and saw the same ESI-Fi teller, the one with the ILI BF. As she processed my transaction, she said to me, "Adam, did I tell you that I'm pregnant?"

We've talked about four times. The duality is strong with this one.

"No! Congratulations! That's so great!" and I see that she isn't wearing a wedding band. "But you're not married?"

"Uhh, no." She pauses and goes deep. "We haven't decided to do that."

"What? Are you crazy? You need to get that guy to marry you."

"I don't know. It's just a piece of paper." She tapers off into silence.

"It's a piece of paper that the State recognizes for, like, child support. For forming a safe environment to raise decent kids in. This guy could meet someone else and be gone in a heartbeat, leaving you a single mother."

"Or I could do that to him." She smiled.

"Yeah, you could, but you wouldn't. You're too loyal and committed to family."
I think she's just accepted the fact that I know a great deal about her personality.
"But guys don't always stick around. Do you make more than he does?"

"Oh, no. He's a programmer for the university. He makes a lot more than I do."

"Then you'd better lock that down. You know the fastest way to poverty? To be a single mother."

She thinks about this for a second. "I could raise the kid by myself."

"Yes, maybe you could. I raised a kid but I found it impossible to do it myself. It takes two people. I know. Kids absorb all your time. Or were you going to hire a nanny so you can work while she teaches your kid whatever skills got her to where she is? No, I don't think so."

"I'm not stupid."

"I know you're not stupid, but you are doing a very stupid thing. You need to get that guy to marry you."

"Well, I can't really say more about this in a bank environment, and I have to close in one minute," she glanced around, "but I wanted to ask you what you think the personality of the kid will be?"

"Huh. I don't know. You are both Gammas. I think what normally happens is that the kid is some strange echo of the parents. I don't think it is too likely that the kid will be a conflictor, but it is possible."

She looked off into the distance and said, "Yes, I've seen that. OK, time for me to close. Bye, Adam."

So she doesn't know how much money the father of her child makes, and doesn't know if he even wants to be a father, and doesn't have any plans for taking care of the kid, and doesn't seem concerned about any of this, but she gets pregnant by an ILI who doesn't seem to be giving away any of his true intentions.

I swear, sometimes I think my duals are as dumb as a box of rocks.

But what probably pisses me off the most is the fact that these ESI's are getting pregnant by ILI's every single fucking day and I can't get a date. FML.

[ashlesha]

She knows he makes more than her so she probably has a rough idea. Whether he wants to be a father is irrelevant to the fact that he will be. She plans on raising her child with or without him. She can't force him into marriage and it wouldn't make him stay anyway. I think I'm with her.

You were kind of an intrusive know it all, to be honest.

[Adam Strange]

She knows he makes more than her so she probably has a rough idea. Whether he wants to be a father is irrelevant to the fact that he will be. She plans on raising her child with or without him. She can't force him into marriage and it wouldn't make him stay anyway. I think I'm with her.

You were kind of an intrusive know it all, to be honest.

Yes, I'm sure I was being an intrusive know-it-all, but she wasn't complaining. At one point in the convo, I paused and said "I don't want to be an asshole about this." and she replied, "Oh, Adam. You've never said anything that offended me." And I thought, "In our whole four conversations?"

Might be the difference between text and real life interactions between duals.

But you are right. I was being an intrusive know-it-all.

[FDG]

Yes, I'm sure I was being an intrusive know-it-all, but she wasn't complaining. At one point in the convo, I paused and said "I don't want to be an asshole about this." and she replied, "Oh, Adam. You've never said anything that offended me." And I thought, "In our whole four conversations?"

Might be the difference between text and real life interactions between duals.

But you are right. I was being an intrusive know-it-all.

Basically because she agrees with you but is a bit delusional

[Adam Strange]

Basically because she agrees with you but is a bit delusional

The complete and utter lack of foresight of my duals is the most astounding thing about them. All the other characteristics, the sensing, the personal force of Se, the emotional depths of Fi, even the embrace of emotion over rationally-founded thinking, I can accept and even seek. But the low Ni is frightening.

It makes sense that they would seek out ILI's.

[perpetuus]

sounds like my marriage.