Duality in friendships, non-romantic dual relations

[timeofurlife42]

ive noticed that a lot of the duality discussions on this forum are concerned with just romantic relationships, at least they end up being this way. i just had to bring up the point that some of my best friends are istp and i can definatly relate to the duality thing on a pure friendship level. while there is no romantic interest in the relationship, duality can still be benificial in a lot of ways.

comments are welcome

[timeofurlife42]

ive noticed that a lot of the duality discussions on this forum are concerned with just romantic relationships, at least they end up being this way. i just had to bring up the point that some of my best friends are istp and i can definatly relate to the duality thing on a pure friendship level. while there is no romantic interest in the relationship, duality can still be benificial in a lot of ways.

comments are welcome

[cracka]

well yeah...

but how wierd would it be to look over at your buddy and be like "you complete me."

[Mea]

You're ESFj now?

[cracka]

You're ESFj now?

yes. As of yesterday. It's been brought to my attention in the past that i'm probably not estj by more than a few people so after gathering a bunch of opinions on different things it seemed to work out that I'm in fact an ESFJ... if there's a way to be a split between the two I very well may be that too... but for now, i'm a F instead of a T.

[Topaz]

You're ESFj now?

yes. As of yesterday. It's been brought to my attention in the past that i'm probably not estj by more than a few people so after gathering a bunch of opinions on different things it seemed to work out that I'm in fact an ESFJ... if there's a way to be a split between the two I very well may be that too... but for now, i'm a F instead of a T.

I dont believe it. I had an ESTJ friend who would claim the same thing. However, if you find a real ESFJ male you will see you are quite different and I'll leave it at that. Also I was only joking when I said you were INFP.

[Muffinstein]

INFP! The joke species of wishy-washies!!
(totally just joking!)

nothing of real thunderous importance to say here, just that I agree with Timeo, and having a dual for a friend is just as (if not more) fulfilling and funderful and all that stuff.

Anyone ever wonder what happens when a duality is lopsided? Like, 3 INFPs and an ESTP walk into a bar - does the ESTP feel taxed or stimulated or what?

EDIT: You can make it 3 INFJs and an ESTJ if you in Delta want. ^^

[mikemex]

Depends on the specific dual pair. I'm going to talk about my particular duality (ENFp-ISTp).

I'm a delta living among alphas (INTj father, ENTp and ESFj siblings) and that has deeply influenced my life. I've reached the conclusion that ENFp is the most flexible of all types, and as I result I've acquired the alpha values of my family as if they were mine.

My father always tried to make us interested in intellectual stuff since our early childhood. My ESFj brother responded, but not as he expected. My ENTp sister seems to not be very bright. So my father has always seen me as "the hope" of the family. Ti stuff is not particularity interesting to me, but since my father and I share Ne, we can understand each other very well. Thing is, I'm an intellectual myself, probably because of my desire to please him and not because that's a natural tendency of mine.

I would had dropped it long time ago if it wasn't for the fact that I'm actually quite capable in that area (for example, my brother is mentally disabled and goes for treatment; once we were over there and they applied us a test of IQ and I scored even higher than my father, we both are above 130), so it gives me pleasure when I do something related.

The negative side is that it seems to me that it is not healthy for an individual to go around with the PoLR as the supposed strength area. When I'm discussing stuff such like that it always causes me a slight neurosis and imbalance from my normal being. For example, I can be extremely tactless and rude (Ti is reciprocal of Fe) and generally do something in such situations that I later regret.

People also think of me as very arrogant, probably because I have my Ti fortified. To compensate for the fear of criticism in the area I've developed an exaggerated confidence so I always state things instead of asking, for example. My self-confidence is different in nature, however. I don't think that I'm always right. In fact, I would rather think it's the opposite: I'm always afraid of being wrong (like any true intellectual) so I'm constantly throwing out stuff which I want other people to analyze; like if I subconsciously knew that I need help in the area. Since both Ti and Fi are introverted functions, I don't feel the need to report my conclusions to the other person, so they might get away with the impression that I don't listen to them or value their comments. But it's again quite the opposite: I can always find a wisdom in any opinion.

So, about the topic of the thread, I would say that wearing this alpha mask has not been a good thing for my duality friendships. I really don't know how to get rid of it and exercise delta values. When I'm around my dual I have little to talk about, because in my house nobody seems to value Fi (my mother is beta, ENFj). So, as weird as it might sound, I feel rather awkward when I exercise it. The kind of sociability that would attract more "normal" ENFp feels foreign to me, because my father, being an introverted NT, has always condemned social bias.

ISTp also have some obscure sides that I will talk about later.

[stefana]

duality in friendship is like being in a neverending comedy. the nicest part has to be when you playfully mock your dual.

[Blaze]

You're ESFj now?

yes. As of yesterday. It's been brought to my attention in the past that i'm probably not estj by more than a few people so after gathering a bunch of opinions on different things it seemed to work out that I'm in fact an ESFJ... if there's a way to be a split between the two I very well may be that too... but for now, i'm a F instead of a T.

coolio, welcome to alpha, dude! :-)

[Blaze]

Depends on the specific dual pair. I'm going to talk about my particular duality (ENFp-ISTp).

I'm a delta living among alphas (INTj father, ENTp and ESFj siblings) and that has deeply influenced my life. I've reached the conclusion that ENFp is the most flexible of all types, and as I result I've acquired the alpha values of my family as if they were mine.

My father always tried to make us interested in intellectual stuff since our early childhood. My ESFj brother responded, but not as he expected. My ENTp sister seems to not be very bright. So my father has always seen me as "the hope" of the family. Ti stuff is not particularity interesting to me, but since my father and I share Ne, we can understand each other very well. Thing is, I'm an intellectual myself, probably because of my desire to please him and not because that's a natural tendency of mine.

I would had dropped it long time ago if it wasn't for the fact that I'm actually quite capable in that area (for example, my brother is mentally disabled and goes for treatment; once we were over there and they applied us a test of IQ and I scored even higher than my father, we both are above 130), so it gives me pleasure when I do something related.

The negative side is that it seems to me that it is not healthy for an individual to go around with the PoLR as the supposed strength area. When I'm discussing stuff such like that it always causes me a slight neurosis and imbalance from my normal being. For example, I can be extremely tactless and rude (Ti is reciprocal of Fe) and generally do something in such situations that I later regret.

People also think of me as very arrogant, probably because I have my Ti fortified. To compensate for the fear of criticism in the area I've developed an exaggerated confidence so I always state things instead of asking, for example. My self-confidence is different in nature, however. I don't think that I'm always right. In fact, I would rather think it's the opposite: I'm always afraid of being wrong (like any true intellectual) so I'm constantly throwing out stuff which I want other people to analyze; like if I subconsciously knew that I need help in the area. Since both Ti and Fi are introverted functions, I don't feel the need to report my conclusions to the other person, so they might get away with the impression that I don't listen to them or value their comments. But it's again quite the opposite: I can always find a wisdom in any opinion.

So, about the topic of the thread, I would say that wearing this alpha mask has not been a good thing for my duality friendships. I really don't know how to get rid of it and exercise delta values. When I'm around my dual I have little to talk about, because in my house nobody seems to value Fi (my mother is beta, ENFj). So, as weird as it might sound, I feel rather awkward when I exercise it. The kind of sociability that would attract more "normal" ENFp feels foreign to me, because my father, being an introverted NT, has always condemned social bias.

ISTp also have some obscure sides that I will talk about later.

huh, what i think is not great is having your supervisor as a parent. they constantly push on your polr. you have a similar family line-up but with reverse quadras as mine:

me: entp
bro #1: intj
bro #2: enfp
mom: estj
dad: infj

my intj brother does OK, being that he faces delta and the other one is "the love child" of my parents as the intj says it, so things have always been peachy-keen for him lol. but i face beta and and the constant pressure of asymmetrical relations (plus a comparative) in my family of origin left an insecure stamp on me and made it hard for me to recognize my dual. if that helps you at all.

[Exodus]

Yeah, bad family relations suck. Especially comparative!

[flower]

I have a dual friend, its great. There fun to be with and bring out the best in you, somehow you feel really secure and comfortable socially with your dual around. Tring to offend your dual is impossible, they always interpret what you say in a non offensive way, in the ENFp ISTp dual things often turn into banter and silly funny insults

[Slacker]

I had a dual friend for a long time, but she made me the maid of honor in her wedding, and if you want to kill a friendship that's the way to do it. The women here will understand. LOL She was really cheap and kept wanting me to pay for parts of her wedding, like some of the flowers, and dry cleaning and stuff - not stuff that's typically the responsibility of the maid of honor. And I was single then and trying (not very successfully) to support myself. So I couldn't afford to just let it slide. In other circumstances, the money wouldn't have been worth the hassle of arguing with her, but I just didn't have the money. Anyway, that friendship didn't survive the wedding. I did buy her a book about wedding etiquette that, among other things, outlined which expenses were whose in a wedding, but she took offense to that. Fe PoLR. I didn't know about socionics then but I did know she'd get pissed off when I gave her the book. I didn't care at that point.

I don't know if I have a close female friend who is ISTp right now. I have one friend who is but it's more of a couple - the husband is ENFp and works with my husband and the four of us hang out a lot. So we don't hang out just the two of us. It's a different dynamic when it's a couple thing.

The new next door neighbor is ISTp but she hangs out inside most of the time. She'll have a baby soon and she doesn't know much about babies and said she might call on me if she needs help with anything so maybe I'll get to know her better. She's really nice but is uncomfortable getting involved with the neighborhood social scene. Which is pretty extensive around here. Lots of stay-at-home moms and lots of little kids.

The friends I hang out with the most right now are INFj, ENFp, and INFp. And INTp but I think I annoyed my INTp friend by being a bit flakey and forgetting to reply to an email before I left on vacation this last time. I called and apologized but I'm not sure if she's accepted it. My best friends growing up were ESFp and INTp.

[IcEPiCk]

meatburger, your the sesame seed to my big mac

[zenbrat]

I was heavily influenced by the ENTp's and INTp/j's in my environment. Once I made friends with my dual, I become more "myself" (if that makes any sense). I can be flighty, wonderous, goofy and emotional around him and he's just so... even. He laughs, gently teases me about it, but doesn't tell me I'm being silly or whatever.

I gave up on the relationship idea with this ISTP - at least for now. I think I scared the bejeezus out of him. We never even got to the 'dating' stage (in his mind). Poor guy wanted to crawl in a hole from all of the haha! We've had our arguments but he still really wants me to stick around. Now that things are evening out, maybe he'll venture out of that shell eventually... but I will probably be completely enthralled in some other fascination by then

[flower]

I had a dual friend for a long time, but she made me the maid of honor in her wedding, and if you want to kill a friendship that's the way to do it. The women here will understand. LOL She was really cheap and kept wanting me to pay for parts of her wedding, like some of the flowers, and dry cleaning and stuff - not stuff that's typically the responsibility of the maid of honor. And I was single then and trying (not very successfully) to support myself. So I couldn't afford to just let it slide. In other circumstances, the money wouldn't have been worth the hassle of arguing with her, but I just didn't have the money. Anyway, that friendship didn't survive the wedding. I did buy her a book about wedding etiquette that, among other things, outlined which expenses were whose in a wedding, but she took offense to that. Fe PoLR. I didn't know about socionics then but I did know she'd get pissed off when I gave her the book. I didn't care at that point.

I don't know if I have a close female friend who is ISTp right now. I have one friend who is but it's more of a couple - the husband is ENFp and works with my husband and the four of us hang out a lot. So we don't hang out just the two of us. It's a different dynamic when it's a couple thing.

The new next door neighbor is ISTp but she hangs out inside most of the time. She'll have a baby soon and she doesn't know much about babies and said she might call on me if she needs help with anything so maybe I'll get to know her better. She's really nice but is uncomfortable getting involved with the neighborhood social scene. Which is pretty extensive around here. Lots of stay-at-home moms and lots of little kids.

The friends I hang out with the most right now are INFj, ENFp, and INFp. And INTp but I think I annoyed my INTp friend by being a bit flakey and forgetting to reply to an email before I left on vacation this last time. I called and apologized but I'm not sure if she's accepted it. My best friends growing up were ESFp and INTp.

Thats sad that you lost a long term friend over money stuff at a wedding, thats the trouble with big events like that though, if you dont meet their expectation they can hold it against you for a long time, sometimes quiet unfairly aswell. ISTp's can be quiet cheap sometimes shame she didnt see your side of things. Oh, and getting her a book about wedding etiquette, awsome! doing that to a disgruntled ISTp is a sure way to p**s her off

[IcEPiCk]

zenbrat the ISTp needs to develop... Also needs certainty... if you are interested still do stuff that eliminates his skepticism. Jump on him !

[zenbrat]

zenbrat the ISTp needs to develop... Also needs certainty... if you are interested still do stuff that eliminates his skepticism. Jump on him !

Eh, well... his skepticism made me a little erratic for a while. Ok, very erratic ( ) and he beat a retreat. I couldn't get him to understand that pulling with one hand and pushing with the other was making me a little nuts. He was completely unnerved by my being completely unnerved. But, at the same time, he's saying "please don't go yet, just give me a minute - but PLEASE relax so I can relax". Not in those exact words, but that's the message.

I haven't a clue what to do now. We're on the "friends" side of the fence but neither of us really wants to be there... we just can't seem to get over the fence without falling off it, and we can't seem to bear parting ways. Funny thing is, it's his fence. Feels like I'm standing outside of a fortress beating on the door. While I'm beating on the door, he refuses to open it. When I'm finally exhausted and turning to leave, he opens up and pulls me back... but only as far as the door. Rinse. Repeat. For 8 months now.

It would be comedic if it wasn't so disheartening some days.

[IcEPiCk]

haha I cant kinda relate I think. It sounds like you need to just attack him. If that doesnt work he needs to mature. Seeing another guy for a while (this might sound bad) might make him realize you dont know what you got until its gone and then he will smarten up. Or needs to practice on some other chicks before having confidence with you?

Ugh

[zenbrat]

Well, we've already been "there". We ran into some difficulties/misunderstandings a couple of months after we started seeing each other and that stopped. Since then it's been the 'arms length' thing - physically affectionate but platonic - which was thoroughly confusing and made me nuts! He couldn't decide and I couldn't relax about it.

Things escalated to a fight this week, and now... I believe he's written me off as anything more than a friend at this point. Me, being the idealist, believes anything can be "fixed". He isn't very receptive to that right now and I'm not getting the impression that he ever will be. He claims "we're fine" but there's palpable distance. He retreats when it gets difficult, then slowly "warms up" again when he's sure the coast is clear. After this recent 'real fight' I assume it will be a long time before he warms up again, if at all.

Duality isn't all it's cracked up to be. I think this one just cracked.

[olduser]

You sound insane.

[Creepy-Diana]

.

[FDG]

You sound insane.

No, she doesn't. She just sounds like she's dealing with a really immature guy who wouldn't know what he wanted if it kicked him in the face. I imagine it's quite frustrating for her. Maybe he'll eventually grow up, but in the meantime I doubt if she wants to stick around to wait for that.

ya

[TangoxOfxSin]

Funny thing is, it's his fence. Feels like I'm standing outside of a fortress beating on the door. While I'm beating on the door, he refuses to open it. When I'm finally exhausted and turning to leave, he opens up and pulls me back... but only as far as the door. Rinse. Repeat. For 8 months now.

It would be comedic if it wasn't so disheartening some days.

It was creepy for me to read this because of how much it rings true for this ISTp I'm "with," or whatever ambiguous term you can think of. It is the most frustrating thing when everything is in his court and he's doing nothing that you can tell. I totally relate, and I don't want to go bat shit crazy on him and completely drive him away. So just know there are other frustrated ENFps out there with you <3 I'm sure that this getting into the relationship is the hardest part, I've been trying to snoop around here to see what other ISTps say but it's a whole different ball game between theory and experience.

[IcEPiCk]

yes perhaps he needs to mature, I think after you leave him he will realize OH SHIT I WAS stupid. By then you will have moved on. Thats when he will be calling you often. he needs to get more experience I think (life and otherwise).

[zenbrat]

You sound insane.

That's funny... ISTp's complain that no one takes interest in them, and no one is willing to stick it out while they figure it out - but when someone does, they're insane. They only seem interested in the people who aren't interested in them. Thanks for proving me right, heath.

[zenbrat]

You sound insane.

No, she doesn't. She just sounds like she's dealing with a really immature guy who wouldn't know what he wanted if it kicked him in the face. I imagine it's quite frustrating for her. Maybe he'll eventually grow up, but in the meantime I doubt if she wants to stick around to wait for that.

Thank you, diana. That's pretty much the gist of things at this point. I've worked Calculus problems that were less daunting.

Funny thing is, it's his fence. Feels like I'm standing outside of a fortress beating on the door. While I'm beating on the door, he refuses to open it. When I'm finally exhausted and turning to leave, he opens up and pulls me back... but only as far as the door. Rinse. Repeat. For 8 months now.

It would be comedic if it wasn't so disheartening some days.

It was creepy for me to read this because of how much it rings true for this ISTp I'm "with," or whatever ambiguous term you can think of. It is the most frustrating thing when everything is in his court and he's doing nothing that you can tell. I totally relate, and I don't want to go bat shit crazy on him and completely drive him away. So just know there are other frustrated ENFps out there with you <3 I'm sure that this getting into the relationship is the hardest part, I've been trying to snoop around here to see what other ISTps say but it's a whole different ball game between theory and experience.

See, I'm not insane. I wonder if they will ever be able to see things from the other side? I have tried to explain, but the more I explain, the less he listened. Push him for some sort of direct answer and you'll probably get one - but he'll be ticked off and diplomacy will not factor into his response (IME). All I can say is just go by what you see and base your decisions on that. Don't drive yourself nuts - it might not be what you thought it was

yes perhaps he needs to mature, I think after you leave him he will realize OH SHIT I WAS stupid. By then you will have moved on. Thats when he will be calling you often. he needs to get more experience I think (life and otherwise).

We'll keep in touch, but for right now, I don't have much to say and neither does he. Ironically, I have kept something else on hold for a while. I suppose it's time to give up the ghost and move on. I appreciate your help

[Jarno]

You're ESFj now?

yes. As of yesterday. It's been brought to my attention in the past that i'm probably not estj by more than a few people so after gathering a bunch of opinions on different things it seemed to work out that I'm in fact an ESFJ... if there's a way to be a split between the two I very well may be that too... but for now, i'm a F instead of a T.

in another topic you recognized Te instantly as being a mode of yourself.

But to make it simple, there's one hell of a difference between ESFJ and ESTJ.

The first is very emotional, the second is very unemotional/robotic like. Hope you can use this...

[Mea]

You're ESFj now?

yes. As of yesterday. It's been brought to my attention in the past that i'm probably not estj by more than a few people so after gathering a bunch of opinions on different things it seemed to work out that I'm in fact an ESFJ... if there's a way to be a split between the two I very well may be that too... but for now, i'm a F instead of a T.

in another topic you recognized Te instantly as being a mode of yourself.

But to make it simple, there's one hell of a difference between ESFJ and ESTJ.

The first is very emotional, the second is very unemotional/robotic like. Hope you can use this...

ESTjs are not unemotional nor robotic like.

[Jarno]

to get on topic, i think it would be difficult to keep a friendship relationship with the opposite sex. although I had one once. But it was only because she was married

[IcEPiCk]

jarno it can be hard between duals. I agree with you, especially if there is mutual attraction. You want to get the most out of the relationship

[Jarno]

You're ESFj now?

yes. As of yesterday. It's been brought to my attention in the past that i'm probably not estj by more than a few people so after gathering a bunch of opinions on different things it seemed to work out that I'm in fact an ESFJ... if there's a way to be a split between the two I very well may be that too... but for now, i'm a F instead of a T.

in another topic you recognized Te instantly as being a mode of yourself.

But to make it simple, there's one hell of a difference between ESFJ and ESTJ.

The first is very emotional, the second is very unemotional/robotic like. Hope you can use this...

ESTjs are not unemotional nor robotic like.

Would you describe ESTJ as emotional?? Why don't you give arguments when claiming something?

The structured and logical language of the ESTJ reminds me of a robot.

[IcEPiCk]

ESFj are more likely to interfere in one's affairs. They tend to be more enthusiastic than ESTjs. ESTjs are more likely to have eyebrows that go like this \/. ESFjs tend to be more goofy. ESFjs have a bit rounder bodies usually, and they have better aesthetic taste than ESTjs for some reason. ESFjs are good at noticing grammatical errors. ESFjs are more in a fantasy world than ESTjs. Both have emotions, that was a weird statement to make about them being robotic. However, ESTjs are more suited for crises situations. ESFjs are more likely to have a panic attack going on inside them. Both need structure, the ESFj is a lot more likely to talk about their emotions. Both get upset when stuff that was linear in their life changes. Huge changes disturbs them greatly, but ESFjs will show it more. When stressed, the ESTj may work more to get their mind off their problem, but it can lead to compounding the situation. ESTj is good at blaming other people, because in their mind they are aiming to be perfect, how could they have messed up? shit people set up a thread about this.

[Mea]

Would you describe an ENFp/INFjs/ISFjs/ESFps as emotional then?
I wouldn't describe ESTjs as unemotional, just as any other type.

The structured and logical language of the ESTJ reminds me of a robot.

Ok. Maybe, that's just your point of view. Afterall, INTps supervise ESTjs.

[IcEPiCk]

no way. The INTp sounds the most like that. Ive seen ESTjs VERY emotional

[Mea]

no way. The INTp sounds the most like that. Ive seen ESTjs VERY emotional

Ya. I remember, a few years back, my ESTj friend got dumped by a girl. He got pretty emotional.
(Fe role maybe?)

INTps aren't unemotional either. Most like that? Probably? Dunno.

[IcEPiCk]

My roommate is INTp... Can you say outburts of crticism?

[Mea]

My roommate is INTp... Can you say outburts of crticism?

Haa, it's the same for my INTp friend. It's pretty cute to watch. Hmmm..

But I think he's totally cute. I'm just wishing his dominant function is instead of

[IcEPiCk]

ya but the makesthem always right...