Carl Sagan

[Logos]

Carl Sagan: IEE > EII

[mu4]

Edit: Another Gamma NT example I can think of is nykytyne2.

Nykytyne2 is Alpha NT. If you watch his videos you can see his thought processes. He thinks very fast and talks really fast, things just come directly from his mind in a stream of consciousness.

He consistently take rationalist positions and even defends kantian methods.

His main method of argumentation is thought experiments, and playing with them to change the outcome of a argument.

i'm pretty sure zjemptv is not alpha nt.

[Galen]

Nykytyne2 is ILE. If you watch his videos you can see his thought processes. He thinks very fast and talks really fast, things just come directly from his mind in a stream of consciousness.

I'd be inclined to agree.

[Aiss]

Very subtly?

Here's an example, and you tell me how Gamma differs:

I recently started up a new guild in WoW, right? Largely because Isha suggested I do so since I was bitching to her about how poorly run my old guild was (well, poorly run from an Alpha POV, the Gammas/Deltas enjoyed it fine). So, I form the guild, and Isha sets to work implementing all the administrative infrastructure, like a website with Google Apps (so the guild has a calendar where people can check in for raids ahead of time) and whatnot.

I think for Alpha "infrastructure" is just things that help organise a group, or bring it together (either in SF terms of giving a way for people to get together and chat and have fun, or in NT terms of providing a structure that promotes the propagation of information and ideas (I'm just guessing at the NT example, btw)). I already set up an activity parser and voice chat server for the guild on my own initiative, and I'm setting up a public domain mind mapping service for one of my university units if my tutor says I'm allowed to.

As for innovation and modernisation, I cannot speak.

Am I meant to type this? I'd say stereotypically it's something I'd expect from - indeed in my experience similar organization for whatever activities, work or pleasure, usually started with Gammas bitching about lack thereof and Deltas implementing it to shut them up. OK so it's a very particular example of using one's supervisees, but I love having LSEs around for this . But other types achieve similar results if they care. It all depends how serious you're about it and how much effort you're willing to put into it.

I'm not sure how you imagine "Gamma infrastructure", but I sure don't see how what you describe would be in any way distinguished as Alpha over other quadras. Sorry but it just sounds like people making sense, regardless of socionics.

[mfckr]

.

[tereg]

Nykytyne2 is Alpha NT. If you watch his videos you can see his thought processes. He thinks very fast and talks really fast, things just come directly from his mind in a stream of consciousness.

He consistently take rationalist positions and even defends kantian methods.

His main method of argumentation is thought experiments, and playing with them to change the outcome of a argument.

i'm pretty sure zjemptv is not alpha nt.

Someone that I've recently been considering as alpha NT (not 100% sure about that, but someone whose argumentation style and demeanor reminds me of yours for some reason) is theowarner. Would I be off base in thinking that?

[mu4]

Someone that I've recently been considering as alpha NT (not 100% sure about that, but someone whose argumentation style and demeanor reminds me of yours for some reason) is theowarner. Would I be off base in thinking that?

I think he could be, he is more choreographed imo.

[ilikesex]

does this look like an ILI to you?

[pluie]

no, thats a jellybean.

[Galen]

YOU CALL THAT AN INTP?

THIS IS AN INTP

[Mediator Kam]

you know, I know an ILI who smiles a bit like that.

[Logos]

Okay. This quote from him about Pale Blue Dot does make me think γ-NT:

“From this distant vantage point, the Earth might not seem of particular interest. But for us, it's different. Consider again that dot. That's here, that's home, that's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every 'superstar', every 'supreme leader', every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.

The Earth is a very small stage in a vast cosmic arena. Think of the rivers of blood spilled by all those generals and emperors so that, in glory and triumph, they could become the momentary masters of a fraction of a dot. Think of the endless cruelties visited by the inhabitants of one corner of this pixel on the scarcely distinguishable inhabitants of some other corner, how frequent their misunderstandings, how eager they are to kill one another, how fervent their hatreds.

Our posturings, our imagined self-importance, the delusion that we have some privileged position in the Universe, are challenged by this point of pale light. Our planet is a lonely speck in the great enveloping cosmic dark. In our obscurity, in all this vastness, there is no hint that help will come from elsewhere to save us from ourselves.

The Earth is the only world known so far to harbor life. There is nowhere else, at least in the near future, to which our species could migrate. Visit, yes. Settle, not yet. Like it or not, for the moment the Earth is where we make our stand.

It has been said that astronomy is a humbling and character-building experience. There is perhaps no better demonstration of the folly of human conceits than this distant image of our tiny world. To me, it underscores our responsibility to deal more kindly with one another, and to preserve and cherish the pale blue dot, the only home we've ever known.”

I would say that this supports my IEE hypothesis quite well. He does not talk, generally, in terms of empirical facts, but in terms of ideas, generalizations, concepts, and ethical relationships. The final message of what he writes is also clearly an ethical obligation. Furthermore, he has an idealistic approach and view of science. He does occasionally use empirical facts in his videos, but they are used in the service of concepts and ideas. He purposefully avoids details and exact figures. Most of what he says is figurative, imaginative, romanticized, and generalized. It lacks any of the frank bluntness of the Gamma NT. Kamajama may insist that they know of ILI who smile warmly like Sagan, but when his VI is brought to light with everything else we know about him, then it would be a hypothetical stretch. Moreover, it would be a conclusion that misses the more obvious possible conclusions. Delta NF most closely fits the data so far. Of the two, IEE appears to be the better fit.

[tereg]

I'm starting to come around to the idea that Gamma NT would not work for Sagan. I think Logos's analysis is a fair assessment of Sagan's communication style.

[Creepy-bg]

he smoked weed everyday.

[ilikesex]

He does not talk, generally, in terms of empirical facts, but in terms of ideas, generalizations, concepts, and ethical relationships.

wtf how does he speaks in terms of ethical relationships?

[Logos]

wtf how does he speaks in terms of ethical relationships?

Take a look through his excerpt. It contains an emotional and ethical dimension.
* "On it everyone you love..."
* "The aggregate of our joy and suffering..."
* "every young couple in love..."
- really, the entire list of the first paragraph is meant to establish or trigger emotional connections with the audience -
* "Astronomy is a humbling and character-building experience."
* "it underscores our responsibility to deal more kindly with one another, to cherish the pale blue dot."

[mfckr]

.

[Logos]

^

If you see things differently, then I am curious as to your own perspective on the matter. But this sort of non-response does not really invite discussion. I would suggest that you actually interpret the excerpt you posted in terms of Socionics instead of just posting it and declaring Gamma-NT as if it was self-evident. Until I am convinced otherwise, I am highly inclined towards my original hypothesis of IEE > EII.

[mfckr]

.

[Crispy]

he smoked weed everyday.

I'd guess ILE from what little I know about him.

[Logos]

I was just wondering how what you extracted from the excerpt meaningfully demonstrates him as an ethical type. I think you're taking out of context this 1 excerpt and ignoring the greater breadth of things the man says.

All it sounds to me is that, in this particular instance, he's speaking of something he obviously feels strongly for. So what? This alone shouldn't lead one to infer him an ethical type. Especially considering the fact that he doesn't seem to speak this way the majority of the time.

I am not entirely sure how the last paragraph acts as a strong counter-argument. Yes, I am sure that he is speaking about something he feels strongly about. But I believe that the manner in which he does this is more suggestive of Delta NF than Gamma NT or Alpha NT.

I have looked at the greater breadth of what he has said, and I watched each of those posted videos in addition to a few others. I can assure you that my judgment is not based on this excerpt alone. And there is nothing in this greater breadth that provides substantial support for him being a Gamma NT rather than a Delta NF. For even if we were to ignore which set of rational IE he values, one would still have to account for extraordinary prevalence of Ne in his communication. While you could peg this as being strong-subconscious, the almost thematic emphasis on conveying concepts and ideas through simplistic generalities suggests a strong conscious use of Ne. This by itself, narrows down the field of types to Alpha NTs and Delta NFs.

So I am curious as to why "This quote from him about Pale Blue Dot does make [you] think γ-NT..." You have yet to elaborate on this matter, which leaves me just as curious, if not more so, as to "how what you extracted from the excerpt meaningfully demonstrates him" as a Gamma NT.

[jason_m]

Take a look through his excerpt. It contains an emotional and ethical dimension.
* "On it everyone you love..."
* "The aggregate of our joy and suffering..."
* "every young couple in love..."
- really, the entire list of the first paragraph is meant to establish or trigger emotional connections with the audience -
* "Astronomy is a humbling and character-building experience."
* "it underscores our responsibility to deal more kindly with one another, to cherish the pale blue dot."

What bothers me is how it is possible to integral type things such as excerpts, quotes, buildings, etc.:

When is there enough information to draw an accurate conclusion? Do people tend to go beyond the excerpt to get answers that aren't possible (e.g., ILE > LII)? Are there other IMs in the excerpt, etc. that people aren't aware of? Of course, these issues can be applied to typing in general. I'm also not saying that what's going on here isn't feasible; there is clearly a pattern in the above excerpt. I just personally don't know how accurate one's reasoning is without some sort of framework...

[psili]

Sorry to revive a ye old thread but I was especially interested in how other people would type Carl Sagan and I'm hecka surprised that no one has suggested IEI or EIE! His works were dominated by -synthesised warnings and predictions and he tried to steer the outside world away from these dangers by promoting a kind of global unity ( - note his constant use of the pronoun "we" instead of the more -valuing pronouns "I/you"). This theme plays itself out to at least a small degree in almost every single one of his works.

[psili]

No.

[mikemex]

I've seen the entire Cosmos series many times and read some of his books. At least to me, it's rather obvious that he was IEE (Ne subtype). He was the modern version of Thomas Huxley. You're falling into the perpetual prejudice that just because someone is bright then he must be a logical type.

His narrative in Cosmos should be a pretty clear example of idealism: he was always trying to push an humanistic message.

Most ILEs are closet narcissists. When discussing when others they are usually far more concerned about building a positive image for themselves than really seeking out the truth. Sagan was pretty much unconcerned with fame and never feared sharing the spotlight with anyone else. This is pretty evident in his rebuttal to Velikovsky, whom he proved wrong but defended from other scientists who tried to silence him. This is a concern for justice even in "adversaries" that is often foreign to most NTs.

[mikemex]

Here is a list of the steretypical types (with subtypes):

Alpha:
SEI - Bach (Si) Mozart (Fe)
ILE - Pythagoras(Ti) Marconi (Ne)
LII - Curie (Ti) - Voltaire (Ne)
ESE - Verne (Si) - Hugo (Fe)

Beta:

IEI - Gandhi (Ni) - Rimbau (Fe)
SLE - Von Braun (Ti) - Napoleon (Se)
LSI - Aristotle (Ti) - Stanlin (Se)
EIE - Freud (Ni) - ****** (Fe)

Gamma:

ILI - Tesla (Ni) - Gödel (Te)
SEE - Titus (Fi) - Castro (Se)
ESI - No idea.
LIE - London (Ni) - Hannibal (Te)

Delta:

SLI - Van Gogh (Si) - Da Vinci (Te)
IEE - Orwell (Fi) - Sagan (Ne)
EII - Luther (Fi) - Keppler (Ne)
LSE - Nobel (Si) - Ford (Te)

I might need help with examples of ESIs.

[Kalinoche buenanoche]

he is jeremy irons twin

[SyrupDeGem]

LEGEND. He seems to have this Ni gaze to me, the distant dreamy stare he also stikes me as more logical than ethical. Just as some say intelligence does not mean the exclusion of ethics so too does logic not always mean the exclusion of all feeling. The way he relates to these tings is often from a safe distance, I think he is logical, intuitive and introverted (not necessarily in that order). I'd be interested to see him interact with others though if anyone has a youtube link.

I don't think IEE is impossible though.

[ashlesha]

sex god. my dual.

[Park]

sex god. my dual.

[Not A Communist Shill]

His style of language was filled completely with humanistic positivism that is usually associated with (it is hard to see him being ILI), or at least some exuberant extrovert (I don't mean in terms of the Ronin dichotomies). I've always considered him a little OTT in his message (perhaps it was necessary for the time and culture he was in, but he was unnecessary flowery). It doesn't help that whenever I hear an interview of him it reminds me of Graham Chapman doing the "Christmas in Heaven" song.

[wacey]

My subjective opinion on Carl.

He was one of the greats, a man whose poetic narrations have inspired a generation to look out on the world with wonder and amazement. He popularized astronomy, biology, physics, and mathematics. He brought complex, wondrous discoveries to everyday people. Not only was he a great teacher, he was also a scientific innovator. He was a key member of the Nasa teams that built the Voyager missions, the first satellites to explore our solar system. It was Carl who designed the golden plaque mounted on the satellite: our first "hello" to another intelligence.

Carl Sagan is a personal hero of mine. His was a voice of reason, compassion and humour. He demanded Americans inform themselves and understand science, mathematics, ect. He was cognizant of and paid careful attention to peoples perceptions. He was an amazing orator. He possessed a inward sensitivity for the vicissitudes of human experience. He could connect the history, with the discoveries, with the humanity of the people that made them. His outward presence was immediate, you could not help but listen to him when he spoke. He was a great American. He was also a great person, right along side Aristotle, Plato and Galileo. Carl's work and his television programming has done more to motivate young minds to explore the world around them then anyone else. He was a man who brought together the stories and research of hundreds of scientist, artists, historians. He wanted to tell our story.

The last 150 years will become known as the golden age for Biology, where we went from not knowing the actual difference between a rock and a person and now we can manipulate the very genes of living organisms to make "the world in our own image". (Carl) It will also be the golden age for astronomy, as we discovered our place in the Universe and even the origins of all that exsists. We can peer backwards in time, with our "power telescopes that shine light from distance galaxies, illuminating our hearts" (Carl). It will be the time when we see "the pale blue dot as our only home" (Carl). Carl's television show in the 1980's, Cosmos a Space Time Odyssey had a goal for the general public to understand science and technology, so that people are empowered to make the proper decisions in our quickly changing world. He was against ignorance. He was scrupulous and exacting. "If we are not able to be skeptical of those in authority, then we are up for grabs for any charlatan or authority that comes along. People need to be educated" (Carl). He wanted knowledge to be shared generously for all people, regardless of social barriers. A pioneer, a visionary.......

I'm just going to throw this out there, as unpopular as it might seem: the Mentor, the EIE.

[wacey]

sublime.

[WinnieW]

I've read his book "Cosmos" at the age of 12 and it wasn't that difficult to read and understand for me.
* I'm a intellectual showoff now? Maybe? *

[Tigerfadder]

He did seem SLI but maybe LIE or perhaps LII.

[WinnieW]

I can see any NT type for him, Tigerfadder. Maybe there is a percieved misception in public that NT types have no emotions or ethical values.
I can ensure you that I have both of them.
This "Pale Blue Dot" we all living on is near and dear to me, either.

[ooo]

He sent the Golden Disk into space...

[ooo]

I've read his book "Cosmos" at the age of 12 and it wasn't that difficult to read and understand for me.
* I'm a intellectual showoff now? Maybe? *

oh?
say about it pls

[The Reality Denialist]

LIE

[WinnieW]

@pinoline
Based on the book he is hard to type. I guess based on the TV series, either.

What do you want to know about the book? I still have a into german language translated copy of the book in my bookshelf.