Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 40 of 110

Thread: Type Benchmark Project

  1. #1
    Rick's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Former USSR (global nomad)
    TIM
    IEE
    Posts
    2,050
    Mentioned
    7 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default Type Benchmark Project

    Why don't we do a benchmark project similar to Russian-speaking socionists? It's not that hard to do. Then we will have a list of people whose types we actually more or less agree on.

    Anyone who is reasonably experienced in socionics may participate (you decide whether that applies to you).

    Download this form and save it to your computer. Then follow the instructions on the form and send it to me.

    Instructions:
    1. the form is divided into 16 columns by quadra. Enter names directly under the column heading (this should be obvious looking at the forum)
    2. Write the last name, then first when necessary ("Einstein" or "Einstein, Albert" or "Cruise, Tom")
    3. famous people and people from the forum may be included (using their avatar name)
    4. only include people whose type you are more or less sure of and could provide some reasonable argumentation (these must be conscientious typings)

    The final result will look like the Russian socionics benchmark list, except that I will probably not calculate convergence values for each participant, because that is very time-consuming. If someone else wants to help with that, we can cooperate. The results will not show any names, so this will be anonymous to readers. The final list will consist of people typed by four or more participants and with a level of agreement of 75% or higher (same rules as the Russian benchmark list).

    Try to send me your lists by the end of May.

    (could somebody make this a sticky topic?)

  2. #2
    Exodus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    TIM
    LII
    Posts
    8,475
    Mentioned
    332 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    This is an excellent idea. I can help calculate convergence values, in Excel or otherwise. I have a question: are you planning to include fictional characters?

  3. #3
    Rick's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Former USSR (global nomad)
    TIM
    IEE
    Posts
    2,050
    Mentioned
    7 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush
    This is an excellent idea. I can help calculate convergence values, in Excel or otherwise. I have a question: are you planning to include fictional characters?
    Um... let's leave fictional characters out this time around.
    I think convergence values in our case will not be as significant as over there in Russia and Ukraine, but I will be happy to include that in the study with your help. I just think it will at least double the amount of work. Do you know a way to do this other than by counting up convergence figures by hand?

  4. #4
    Exodus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    TIM
    LII
    Posts
    8,475
    Mentioned
    332 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    I don't know how to do it in Excel currently, but I can copy and paste the data from the spreadsheet into Notepad. Once the data are in a text-based format it would be quite easy. (In fact doing it in Excel would probably be more trouble than it's worth, since we're dealing with multiple spreadsheets.) I could even do the entire thing this way, not just the convergences.

    Small typos could throw off the process in any case, so the data should be visually double-checked too.

  5. #5
    Rick's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Former USSR (global nomad)
    TIM
    IEE
    Posts
    2,050
    Mentioned
    7 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush
    I don't know how to do it in Excel currently, but I can copy and paste the data from the spreadsheet into Notepad. Once the data are in a text-based format it would be quite easy. (In fact doing it in Excel would probably be more trouble than it's worth.) I could even do the entire thing this way, not just the convergences.

    Small typos could throw off the process in any case, so the data should be visually double-checked too.
    What I was planning on doing was copying all the separate spreadsheets onto a single one, doing an alphabetical sorting of each column, and then going through the list visually.

  6. #6
    Exodus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    TIM
    LII
    Posts
    8,475
    Mentioned
    332 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Yeah, that would be a lot more difficult. I can PM you my e-mail address so you can send me the data (in spreadsheet form would be fine).

  7. #7
    Rick's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Former USSR (global nomad)
    TIM
    IEE
    Posts
    2,050
    Mentioned
    7 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush
    Yeah, that would be a lot more difficult. I can PM you my e-mail address so you can send me the data (in spreadsheet form would be fine).
    Awesome. Let's wait a few weeks and come back to this when some results are in.

  8. #8
    Exodus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    TIM
    LII
    Posts
    8,475
    Mentioned
    332 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    ok.

  9. #9
    Joy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    TIM
    SEE
    Posts
    24,507
    Mentioned
    60 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    For the record, I don't like this idea. Very few people here of met most of the people that will be on their charts, and there aren't really any "professional" socionists here. Most people tend to agree with the "general consensus" of people's types (among other things), which is something I do not respect at all. I'll work on it anyways though.
    SEE

    Check out my Socionics group! https://www.facebook.com/groups/1546362349012193/

  10. #10
    Creepy-bg

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    For the record, I don't like this idea. Very few people here of met most of the people that will be on their charts, and there aren't really any "professional" socionists here. Most people tend to agree with the "general consensus" of people's types (among other things), which is something I do not respect at all.

  11. #11

    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    8,577
    Mentioned
    8 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    are you going to give us a standard list of people to type or do we give you a bunch of random names that are likely to be totally different from everyone else's?

  12. #12
    aka Slacker Slacker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    North Korea
    TIM
    IEE
    Posts
    8,814
    Mentioned
    24 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    I agree that it would help to have suggestions of people to include.
    It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.
    -Mark Twain


    You can't wake a person who is pretending to be asleep.

  13. #13
    Exodus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    TIM
    LII
    Posts
    8,475
    Mentioned
    332 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Yes, that might make things difficult for people who don't record their typings. If you have to, you could go through old threads in "What's My Type?".

  14. #14
    Joy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    TIM
    SEE
    Posts
    24,507
    Mentioned
    60 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Or we could list people here... and for forum members, just go to the memberlist and arrange it in descending order by number of posts and go through it, and for those people who you have your own type opinions on, put them in your chart.

    The only celebrities that I've added so far are Bill O'Reilly, Ann Coulter, and Sylvester Stallone.
    SEE

    Check out my Socionics group! https://www.facebook.com/groups/1546362349012193/

  15. #15

    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    8,577
    Mentioned
    8 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Joy

    The only celebrities that I've added so far are Bill O'Reilly, Ann Coulter, and Sylvester Stallone.

    extremely controversial and oddball typings you must have

  16. #16
    Joy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    TIM
    SEE
    Posts
    24,507
    Mentioned
    60 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    ENTj, ENTj, ESFp
    SEE

    Check out my Socionics group! https://www.facebook.com/groups/1546362349012193/

  17. #17

    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    8,577
    Mentioned
    8 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    ..... yes, we get it.

  18. #18
    Exodus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    TIM
    LII
    Posts
    8,475
    Mentioned
    332 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    I think it would be an extremely bad idea to post the typings (or even the people) publicly, which would make consensus-based typings even more likely.

  19. #19
    Joy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    TIM
    SEE
    Posts
    24,507
    Mentioned
    60 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    then why did you say "extremely controversial and oddball typings you must have"?
    SEE

    Check out my Socionics group! https://www.facebook.com/groups/1546362349012193/

  20. #20
    Joy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    TIM
    SEE
    Posts
    24,507
    Mentioned
    60 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    eh nm I get it
    SEE

    Check out my Socionics group! https://www.facebook.com/groups/1546362349012193/

  21. #21
    Creepy-bg

    Default

    no anime characters!

  22. #22
    Joy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    TIM
    SEE
    Posts
    24,507
    Mentioned
    60 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush
    I think it would be an extremely bad idea to post the typings (or even the people) publicly, which would make consensus-based typings even more likely.
    I see your point. Perhaps people could send one person a list of famous people they're typing and that person can post the list?
    SEE

    Check out my Socionics group! https://www.facebook.com/groups/1546362349012193/

  23. #23
    Exodus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    TIM
    LII
    Posts
    8,475
    Mentioned
    332 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush
    I think it would be an extremely bad idea to post the typings (or even the people) publicly, which would make consensus-based typings even more likely.
    I see your point. Perhaps people could send one person a list of famous people they're typing and that person can post the list?
    Yes, Rick can do that if he likes, once people send their typings in.

  24. #24
    Exits, pursued by a bear. Animal's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    TIM
    It sneaks up on you
    Posts
    3,061
    Mentioned
    86 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    then why did you say "extremely controversial and oddball typings you must have"?
    He was being sarcastic.
    "How could we forget those ancient myths that stand at the beginning of all races, the myths about dragons that at the last moment are transformed into princesses? Perhaps all the dragons in our lives are princesses who are only waiting to see us act, just once, with beauty and courage. Perhaps everything that frightens us is, in its deepest essence, something helpless that wants our love."
    -- Rainer Maria Rilke, Letters to a Young Poet

  25. #25
    Joy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    TIM
    SEE
    Posts
    24,507
    Mentioned
    60 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    eh nm I get it
    SEE

    Check out my Socionics group! https://www.facebook.com/groups/1546362349012193/

  26. #26
    Exits, pursued by a bear. Animal's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    TIM
    It sneaks up on you
    Posts
    3,061
    Mentioned
    86 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Gotcha.
    "How could we forget those ancient myths that stand at the beginning of all races, the myths about dragons that at the last moment are transformed into princesses? Perhaps all the dragons in our lives are princesses who are only waiting to see us act, just once, with beauty and courage. Perhaps everything that frightens us is, in its deepest essence, something helpless that wants our love."
    -- Rainer Maria Rilke, Letters to a Young Poet

  27. #27

    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    8,577
    Mentioned
    8 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush

    Yes, Rick can do that if he likes, once people send their typings in.
    if he does that, he should avoid including those people he's typed on his site or his blog in order to avoid that "consnsus" mechanism.

    the above may not apply to people whose typings are universally known but still widely contested for some reason (ie einstein)

  28. #28
    Creepy-bg

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by niffweed17
    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush

    Yes, Rick can do that if he likes, once people send their typings in.
    if he does that, he should avoid including those people he's typed on his site or his blog in order to avoid that "consnsus" mechanism.

    the above may not apply to people whose typings are universally known but still widely contested for some reason (ie einstein)
    that could get a bit rediculous... if he can't include the people people he's already typed in the list than everything he's done up to this point is worthless and there goes his inspiration for the whole shebang...

    next somebody's going to suggest that we all have to wear blindfolds and earplugs while we're typing people

    I don't see the need for all these silly extra conditions and steps to this whole deal. What's wrong with the way Rick originally presented it? It's nice and simple...

  29. #29

    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    8,577
    Mentioned
    8 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Bionicgoat

    that could get a bit rediculous... if he can't include the people people he's already typed in the list than everything he's done up to this point is worthless and there goes his inspiration for the whole shebang...

    next somebody's going to suggest that we all have to wear blindfolds and earplugs while we're typing people

    I don't see the need for all these silly extra conditions and steps to this whole deal. What's wrong with the way Rick originally presented it? It's nice and simple...
    it's not like there aren't a hundred other people he's investigating.

  30. #30
    Rick's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Former USSR (global nomad)
    TIM
    IEE
    Posts
    2,050
    Mentioned
    7 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    OK, it seems there are two main concerns here:

    1. Everyone will have different people on their lists, leading to a lot of "wasted effort"
    2. People tend to follow the "general consensus" anyway

    This is the same methodology that the Russians used to create their benchmark list, and I think we will see some people on the final list that have not been discussed at length here. I will have plenty of people on my list who are not posted on my site. Hopefully, the experience of creating a list like this will be useful for participants in and of itself. Of course most people typed will not make it on the final list, but that's the whole point.

    I can suggest going through the list of forum members on this site, people discussed in the "what's my type?" section of the forum, lists like "top 100 celebrities" at Wikipedia, type lists that other socionists have created, etc.

    As for the second point, here we will have to trust the good faith of each contributor. I wrote:
    4. only include people whose type you are more or less sure of and could provide some reasonable argumentation (these must be conscientious typings)
    There should be no motivation to put as many people on one's list as possible, since no one will find out about individual lists anyway.

    After the final result is in, we can try to judge how much of the list comes from "following the general consensus." The one's who cried "groupthink!" and "brainwashing!" after the Russian benchmark project were primarily the ones with the lowest convergence rate with the final list. The final list will show for each person:
    - how many people typed him or her
    - what the agreement rate was
    - what other versions there were, if any

    Also, I have posted the same announcement at the Socionix forum and would announce at Socionics.com if there were a way. I'll post an announcement on my site as well. The more input from people outside the forum, the better.

  31. #31

    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    TIM
    ILI
    Posts
    2,916
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    I think we should gather the past threads if you guys wanna do this.
    Like gather the links of the past threads where a person's type was more or less agreed by the majority, then move on from there?

    Just a suggestion.
    INTp
    sx/sp

  32. #32
    Rick's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Former USSR (global nomad)
    TIM
    IEE
    Posts
    2,050
    Mentioned
    7 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mea
    I think we should gather the past threads if you guys wanna do this.
    Like gather the links of the past threads where a person's type was more or less agreed by the majority, then move on from there?

    Just a suggestion.
    That's a different project, but if someone wants to do that, great.

  33. #33
    Joy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    TIM
    SEE
    Posts
    24,507
    Mentioned
    60 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Another issue is that there are people whose types I've thought about a lot, and I've changed my mind a few times. I don't like the idea of making a list that I can't change.
    SEE

    Check out my Socionics group! https://www.facebook.com/groups/1546362349012193/

  34. #34
    Rick's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Former USSR (global nomad)
    TIM
    IEE
    Posts
    2,050
    Mentioned
    7 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    Another issue is that there are people whose types I've thought about a lot, and I've changed my mind a few times. I don't like the idea of making a list that I can't change.
    If you feel you're likely to change your typing of someone in the future, don't include them in the list. Also, we can repeat this project at any stage in the future.

    Also, we need someone to make this same announcement at the socionics.com forum so that people from there can participate, too.

  35. #35
    Joy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    TIM
    SEE
    Posts
    24,507
    Mentioned
    60 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    The problem is that there are people who think they're one type... say... INFj... and because that's what they've claimed it's the "general consensus". If I disagree and think they're either INFp or ISFp, not including them on my chart might as well be a vote (yes, vote) for INFj.
    SEE

    Check out my Socionics group! https://www.facebook.com/groups/1546362349012193/

  36. #36

    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    8,577
    Mentioned
    8 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    The problem is that there are people who think they're one type... say... INFj... and because that's what they've claimed it's the "general consensus". If I disagree and think they're either INFp or ISFp, not including them on my chart might as well be a vote (yes, vote) for INFj.

    obviously the only plausible solution to such a conundrum is suicide.

  37. #37

    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    1,968
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Just a few thoughts...
    * Everyone is at a different level of skill. To deal with this issue, create a short list of 'test' people that everyone should try to type. People can indicate whether they want any of those to count as their "official typings" (obviously, someone one isn't sure of shouldn't be counted). But with everyone typing a short list of people, we can automatically tell if a person's typing system is outside the mainstream. Then we can give that person a weighted vote for his/her other typings. For example, if the person's correlation with the group (or maybe with a group of experienced Socionists) on the short list is .5, maybe that person's typings only count as .5 of a vote for the overall tallies.

    * If there's a big response, it should be possible to create a macro that loops through all the results of speadsheets in a given directory, so no copying and pasting would be needed.

    * In any case, if you make the raw results available somehow (e.g., post the spreadsheets in a directory that allows directory browing, or just name them in a way that anyone could download them all), then you can get the benefit of everybody's statistical analysis ideas and skills.

  38. #38
    Exodus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    TIM
    LII
    Posts
    8,475
    Mentioned
    332 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jonathan
    Just a few thoughts...
    * Everyone is at a different level of skill. To deal with this issue, create a short list of 'test' people that everyone should try to type. People can indicate whether they want any of those to count as their "official typings" (obviously, someone one isn't sure of shouldn't be counted). But with everyone typing a short list of people, we can automatically tell if a person's typing system is outside the mainstream. Then we can give that person a weighted vote for his/her other typings. For example, if the person's correlation with the group (or maybe with a group of experienced Socionists) on the short list is .5, maybe that person's typings only count as .5 of a vote for the overall tallies.
    I don't like that idea. It would artificially increase the homogeneity of the results.

    * If there's a big response, it should be possible to create a macro that loops through all the results of speadsheets in a given directory, so no copying and pasting would be needed.
    Yeah, or you could just save each file in text format directly from the spreadsheet (Save As -> txt), which would accomplish the same thing as copying and pasting.

    * In any case, if you make the raw results available somehow (e.g., post the spreadsheets in a directory that allows directory browing, or just name them in a way that anyone could download them all), then you can get the benefit of everybody's statistical analysis ideas and skills.
    Everybody? I doubt there will be a widespread demand for this. Even if there is, people should consent to making their typings public first. Otherwise, if you have ideas about how to process the data, then we can consider them as a group.

  39. #39
    Exodus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    TIM
    LII
    Posts
    8,475
    Mentioned
    332 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    I am working on a way to automatically extract the data to text format.

  40. #40
    Exodus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    TIM
    LII
    Posts
    8,475
    Mentioned
    332 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush
    I am working on a way to automatically extract the data to text format.
    Done.

Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •