Edited for gaiety.
******'s type is under reconsideration.
Edited for gaiety.
******'s type is under reconsideration.
Hilter doesn't carry himself like an ENTP (intuitive nor logical subtype), nor does he have the mannerisms of ENTP's. He acts much more like an ENFJ (ethical subtype).
He was manic depressive and a little obsessive complusive, which are characteristic of ENFJ's.
You made reference to Josef Goebbels ENFJ, intuituve subtype (tend to be predominately ectomorphic unlike the ethical subtypes who have midrange body structures).
Actually there are quite a few difference between the subtypes...
Curious soul, that's a theory, but for the main part it is is an absurd and illogical thoery. Condense it to less than five paragraphs and we'll rejudge the validity of your longwinded statements.
No offense but, c'mon.!What are you trying to say?
Condense it., regroup it, and then get back to us.
If socionics is justified by INTJs and ENTPs wouldn't they be able to tell a fellow quadra mate better than most? While ****** did seem to have gestalt emotions inconsistent with differentiated feeling I'm not sure the evidence is enough to type him as ENTP.
I suppose the point is that nobody wants to claim ****** as "one of their own" and whatever his type was he was a highly abnormal and atypical case. If socionists could type people easily and with high degree of reliability recognize even the highly exceptional cases then socionics would quickly gain popularity even in the west. Unfortunately it just seems to be that there are plenty of promising models and theories but in practise people usually just type based on lazy stereotypes of what different types are supposed to be like. I think the type descriptions can often be highly misleading because there is such a tremendous variation within every type and in this respect rigorous logical analysis could have great potential, as at least in theory it should enable multiple crosschecking of the correctness of typing. In my opinion visual identification also has great potential but there must be a way to get the debate beyond the "he says-she says" arguments.Originally Posted by Pedro-Teh-Lion
I would also like to hear from those who still think ****** was ENFJ.
Well, if alpha types were hesitant about claiming a psychotic as one of their own, they probably would not have labled Osama Bin Laden as ENTP on socionics.com.
******: looks like an ISTJ. definetely NOT an extrovert. should be easy to VI the difference between I and E. The inspector. Makes sense. Ever watch him inspect his army? Very much in his element. The more I think about it the more sure I am.
Göring: classic ENTP face.
****** was an ENFj. I have an ENFj sister and I know how it is to be an ENFj. ENFj is a veeery good orator (like ******) and does the right thing (save humanity from jews). ENTp is not human oriented like ****** was. Style of uniform, his speeches and actions clearly says that he was an ENFj.
When comparing faces it is very easy to make a mistake. ISTj is dual to ******. ISTj and ENFj are similiar in very diffrent ways (the same quadrable). ****** was NOT an introvert! Giving such speeches, how could he be an extrovert? Introvert does not says anything he dont have to. ISTj are saving the words. So he is not ISTj but and ENFj.
...and ENFj tends to be a maniac, compulsive and depressive, just like ******. Commiting suicide is a proof of depression.
Looking at length of your post and your statement I think that you are an ENFp and you are thinking that you are an ENTp.Originally Posted by CuriousSoul
It is not uncommon to take on a different persona when in front of a large audience. If you have ever given big speeches maybe you've noticed that something seems to take over. Stutters stop stuttering, etc. Also ****** has one of the most hard-assed faces I've ever seen. I don't know how one could see even a glimmer of feeling under that thing.Originally Posted by false
Has anyone ever watched a film of ****** speaking? All that emotion and violence? Anyone ever noticed how neat his appearance was, and how he insisted on uniforms for eveyone in his presence, even himself? These are all qualities of a rational feeler (I might also add that he had bad aesthetic taste as demonstrated by his failed career as an artist, inferior Si). I would argue that ****** had the inate ability to influence the emotional element of his nation, not the logical one. His clear instability and wacky paranoia are EN*j traits, stemming from the Se power hungry 6th function. Nixon (ENTj) had the same paranoia, it is very typcial in these two types.
And as far as ****** being an ENTp...haha. ENTps are foppish, procastinating, semi-disorganized goofballs (And I mean that with the utmost respect for the ENTp's ability to survive and thrive like that). I always get a kick out of my few ENTp friends, because its so difficult for them to stay organzized and they always set up systems to be organized and then abandon them quickly. In contrast, ****** was a micro-manager par-excellance, which contributed to his downfall.
Lastly, he was a HORRID military strategist (Russia/North Africa), and a brilliant diplomat (look at how he played Neville Chamberlain and the rest of Europe for so long). For an ENTp, I'd think it was the other way around.
First, ****** was a sociopath. As far as I can tell, sociopaths are difficult to type. For the last year and a half, I have been trying to type sociopaths including serial killer Ted Bundy, Adolf ******, Manson (Helter Skelter), and others and it is certainly not easy-for some strange reason. If anyone can post a method or idea to type people with antisocial personality disorder that would be great.
In my opinion and by using V.I., ****** was either an ENTP or an ISFJ. If he was an ISFJ, then he must have been incredibly good at handling his weakness. As an ENTP however, he explicitly learned how to manipulate crowds by learning psychology and stage art.
As far as ****** being an ENFJ because of his speaking ability, I myself being an ENTP learned how to sway crowds and motivate people by speaking publicly. Think about it in terms of incentives and capability. A sociopath ENTP would not mind to gather lots of information and practice hard to sway people. Not to say that I am a sociopath myself.
The problem with this subject is the amount of subjectivism involved in it. There is a difference between deductive reasoning and rationalizing by using information that supports a claim that is desired. This is even more common in mystical things like astrology. I even question Socionics as being mystical minded.
As much as I hate to admit it, you're probably right. There's no logical, physical cause and effect finality in socionics, and that's why we can't be sure when we type someone else. You can't trace these functions down to neurons or sides of the brain or etc. However, this is a problem with psychology in general, it's not specific to socionics. It's just the territory. At lot of things about socionics I'm just not sure about or have to reevaluate the conclusions I've made, sometimes they are subjective rationalizations and I find something that goes against something I've taken as almost fact. The only thing I'm really sure about is the functions themselves seem extremely evident to me. Also, the Model A seems to be so accurate. Sure there's lots of subjective conclusions you can draw from the model A and alot of those will be wrong(just look on our forums), but the speculation seems to be off, not the facts. Anyway...Originally Posted by Jimbean
That's the key, the Se hidden agenda. It's very noticeable in ENTjs too.Originally Posted by Pedro-The-Lion
It could have also been that he wanted to be loved, or perfect, or show off his military abilities (to believe or know)? Who really knows!?
I personally find that people who are successful at their aims usually focus on their strengths instead of their weakness.
I am a college freshman taking lower level courses. I have found an ISFJ humanities and philosophy “expert.” I also have an ENFP boss who “knows everything”-(granted he knows a lot about the job and has taught me some things), I knew and ESFP who also “knew everything,” and I know an ENTP who is a “social genius.” Believe me, it does not work very well, and if anything, it does not get them very far unless they work about twice as hard as someone who has that ability as their strength. As and ENTP, I use my strength to show off what I know to be loved. I also think people like Donald Trump (I personally think he is an ESTP) does what he is good at, and in turn, he is loved
As in ******’s case, he was good at organization, learning, and strategy. Public speaking and diplomatic skills can be practiced.
For me the "tell" is in the body postures and facial expressions. Beats VI, beats career, beats dialog, beats whether or not his country won WWII, etc. Doesn't beat knowing the person. But I think the best we have for famous/historical figures is film/video. Gain an intuitive feel for movements and expressions, study footage, and you've got it.
Adolph seems like Hamlet.
Moreover, most people think this is the case with this guy as far as I know.
He fits the second Quadra’s general mantra.
However, he used many drugs, which I think contributed to his escalating insanity.
I really don’t think it matters. ****** was smart enough to know what it took to manipulate millions of people and not give a second thought to it. This is the kind of person who really did not have a human nature, his emotions were probably that of a robot-whatever emotion fit the cause, lie at his own expense, and treat people like objects. To me, these are the hardest people to classify.
most new ideas aren't organized. systems dont materialize out of nothing, they are carved out of a nebulous haze.
there are some gems in there- great detective work!
****** was an ENFj and there I have no problem with that. Just look at his face... this smile of Ni (just like ENTj have) and charisma.
He was surronded by ISTj officers, his duals. It can explain something, just try to think
The body beneath her reacted by attacking her pussy with even greater ferocity, wrapping his arms around her thighs and pulling her in tightly Bewise Edelwise Professional Variables. Becky come with me, you can be my teddy bear to cuddle with while I sleep Catdv X Pro. Lucy moaned and wiggled against me as I picked up the pace Foldercontrol. This was our first time in a public place dressed as women, so our hesitance was understandable Acd Mpower Tools. I increased the pressure on her bald little twat and sped up again Orange Traction.
well, there are things in this universe i don't think we'll ever understand... that happened to be one of them.
The whole point here is that CuriousSoul has the say in ******'s type, because unlike so many other people on this forum, he actually presented a logical argument with plenty, and I say plenty, of empirical evidence to back it up. So far it's been proven on this forum; it's actually INTjs who have the worst typing skills, and one hears plenty of infantile thinking (stuff like, "Oh, he has red hair and a full chin! Only ENFps have red hair and full chins! So he must be an ENFp!")
On a movie about ******, ****** was arguing something with another fellow, and he explicitly said to him, "I have no desire to lead!" What does that tell you?
And another thing, this is just some more proof that often times people give off an air that is characteristic of their beneficiaries. (ENTp > ENFj)
You know, I think INFjs may be the best at typing people, because they can see inner motives and weigh them out to see which ones really mean something and which ones don't. Socionics needs more INFjs.
You know, I really need to stop posting out of emotional passion...
Your INTp friend,
Binary or dichotomous systems, although regulated by a principle, are among the most artificial arrangements that have ever been invented. -- William Swainson, A Treatise on the Geography and Classification of Animals (1835)
I have given this some thought and watched some documentries on the History Channel, and compared ****** to different socionic types. After doing so, I am almost sure ****** was an ENTp. There was definitely in ******'s thinking as well as a lot of aggresion and mood swings, which I think signal or .
He was an ENFj, case closed.
Power hungry maniac, or deluted idealistic tyrant? You decide. Both correlate to ENFj.
I am biased since I hate ENTPs... I see the method in which he controlled was very tyranical, ENTPs like to control in that way.He was an ENFj, case closed.
Power hungry maniac, or deluted idealistic tyrant? You decide. Both correlate to ENFj.
If you consider he ended up killing his top general, Rommel, that could easily link to his hidden agenda to be loved. General Rommel was an ISTP (for sure its even evident in his strategies... VI him if you wish). General Rommel was quietly talking about how they would definitely lose the war being the realist he was. He eventually saw ******s insanity for what it was. ENTPs and ISTPs have close relationships at first and then it we can get to each other's throats because of extreme mistrust (ask RMCNEW about our semi duality). Once an ENTP is certain they are no longer loved by someone they will often put them on an enemy list. The SS came a knocking on Rommel's door and he had to leave one day, his son and family never saw him again.
****** definitely did gain the love of the German people. He loved doing those speeches because of the attention he would get. Perhaps that ugly mustache was just another way of getting attention...
Still, anyone THAT crazy must have had a personality disorder on top of whatever type they were.
IcEPiCK is right about the ENTp/ISTp semi-dual relationship.Originally Posted by IcEPiCk
Usually the ISTp becomes offended by ENTps behaviour and ENTp does not know why ISTp is offended, then ENTp feels like victim and they avoid each other for a while. They make up, same thing happens again and again until they can not handle being around each other any more.
The reason this occurs is because of the value ISTps place on structure and honesty, and they often equate the two in their minds. If they do not see consistent behaviour, they become very suspecious.
ENTps on the other hand value freedom of independance in an unstructured enviroment, and are anything but consistent, usually forgetting what they have already done and misplacing items, linking concepts together in their minds. But, an ENTp can appear as sharp as ever in the process.
In result, it does not look like appropiate behaviour to an ISTp who thrives in a structured and strictfully honest and open enviroment, and the natural ENTp behaviour offends ISTps ...
However, when ISTps first meet, they usually relate well with their and manifest similar behaviours. They can feel a connection, but do not realize impending conflict.
That is what ENTp/ISTp semi-duality is like ...
Whats the big deal over ****** or Osama's temperament? Let it go lol. No need to cruxify type.
This is a topic that's been the cause of much debate between socionists.
Well, not really, but I wanted to make it sound important.
Anyways, what do you think he is and why?
I personally think he was an ENTP. I'm not sure that any feeling type (ESPECIALLY an ENFJ) could intentionally order the massacre of millions of people. That is, unless you're going to argue that ****** didn't know about the Holocaust, which is a respectable standpoint; many historians still put forth this argument as a possibility.
Violent gesticulation is a trademark of ENTP speech-making, and ****** certainly did plenty of that. Also, if you watch his face in a video of him making a speech, his eyes light up and he almost smiles when he hears people roaring his praises during a passionate speech; this could easily be indicative of a hidden agenda.
But, for a certainty, back then,
We loved so many, yet hated so much,
We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...
Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
Whilst our laughter echoed,
Under cerulean skies...
LOL! Well I have to say that I took a famous leaders test a few months ago and my result came out as ******. So, could he have been an ENFJ? Yup! I think so!
It's not a question of "believing" -- personally I have yet to see the case convincingly made, like CuriousSoul did for ENTp.
, LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
Originally Posted by implied
I dont think it matters-- exception to a pattern and obviously unhealthy anyhow.
because he used to take the necessary precautions before his actions.
Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
Enneagram 2w1sw(1w9) helps others to live up to their own standards of what a good person is and is very behind the scenes in the process.
Tritype 1-2-6 stacking sp/sx
I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE
Best description of functions: