I Realized Something Extremely Disturbing

[Steve]

We've had a few (too many) school shootings in America in the last decade, and today I looked at some pictures of some of the shooters, and I was aghast. They're ALL ENTp-Ti

Take a look!

Columbine Shooters, Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold:



Santee High School (California - 2001) Shooter, Charles Andrew Williams








I'm Even Beginning to think this VA-Tech Guy may be ENTp as well





This is VERY DISTRESSING - DO YOU HAVE ANY EXPLANATIONS FOR WHY THIS IS?

[ScarlettLux]

Are you serious?

I think the guy from Vtech is INTp

[Rick]

Are you serious?

I think the guy from Vtech is INTp

I would tend to agree, and I think the Columbine shooters are EIE and SLE (there was a thread on them once).

[Creepy-bg]

are you sure you aren't just projecting here Steve? how's things going at home?

[ScarlettLux]

Are you serious?

I think the guy from Vtech is INTp

I would tend to agree, and I think the Columbine shooters are EIE and SLE (there was a thread on them once).

Whoa, that makes sense, yeah, I agree with SLE at least. They seem Beta. Their rantings, and whatnot. And I would say something even more disturbing in regards to attraction ... but uh.. I'll just stop it right here.

[Steve]

are you sure you aren't just projecting here Steve? how's things going at home?

Don't worry I'm not projecting. Things are excellent at home

The reason I brought it up was because I was talking to an ENTp-Ti about the event, and what the shooter's rationale was, if there was any, and the idea of some ENTps being outsiders and not blending in with society was one idea the guy mentioned.

[Jarno]

the virginia highschool shooter was an introvert.

i don't know about the rest of them.
columbine were computer freaks. identified by FBI as the Depressed and the Anti Social.
maybe that helps a bit.

I wouldn't rely solely on VI.

[Creepy-male]

Hah ENTp are you kidding? I definitally don't agree, your approaching this all wrong, you can't type these people by analogy to psychological healthy types. A healthy ENTp stands out from society because they are brilliant, inventive, and understand society in intuitive ways -- thats the reasoning behind that statement. However these people stand out in a different way, in a resentful, angstful, hateful, and loner type kind of way. I also can't begin to type them simply with Socionics because they are too messed up, like I could say they were feelers because they all were driven to their acts by hate, depression and rage based feelings... however not only does this go against the general sense of healthy feelers being nice and friendly but it also is only part true because they didn't experience remorse and empathy for their vicitims at least during the act. Hands down, the best classification system for these people are examining their psychological problems rather than a healthy personality type. The columbine kids were definitally Anti-Social though, they always rationalized everything they did with the idea of "survival of the fittest", this just screms anti-social, especially since if they really operated by this idea they wouldn't have killed themselves. All the rationalization was to them was a means to justify their anti-social behavior and their viewpoint of me vs society, if society doesn't like it, too bad.

[jessica129]

All I know is that I can't look at the VA Tech guy in the eye. He's downright creepy..something obviously not quite right with the guy. And I would never type him as an E of any sort. Obviously isolated, withdrawn and antisocial to the extreme.

[Exodus]

Hah ENTp are you kidding? I definitally don't agree, your approaching this all wrong, you can't type these people by analogy to psychological healthy types. A healthy ENTp stands out from society because they are brilliant, inventive, and understand society in intuitive ways -- thats the reasoning behind that statement. However these people stand out in a different way, in a resentful, angstful, hateful, and loner type kind of way. I also can't begin to type them simply with Socionics because they are too messed up, like I could say they were feelers because they all were driven to their acts by hate, depression and rage based feelings... however not only does this go against the general sense of healthy feelers being nice and friendly but it also is only part true because they didn't experience remorse and empathy for their vicitims at least during the act. Hands down, the best classification system for these people are examining their psychological problems rather than a healthy personality type. The columbine kids were definitally Anti-Social though, they always rationalized everything they did with the idea of "survival of the fittest", this just screms anti-social, especially since if they really operated by this idea they wouldn't have killed themselves. All the rationalization was to them was a means to justify their anti-social behavior and their viewpoint of me vs society, if society doesn't like it, too bad.

The funny thing is that Socionics is at least meant to apply to everybody, even mentally unhealthy people - and in a lot of ways is more well-developed than mainstream psychology (with its endless disorders and syndromes). Maybe it could help us understand where they were coming from, from their point of view. That's what Socionics is for, IMO.

[Creepy-male]

Disorders were made when studying the subject of people with psychological problems -- their focus is based around this

Socionics was made when trying to create a psychological model of society -- their focus is based around this.

Obviously Socionics is way to general to address the pertinant topic.

However my main point was not this, it was that you can't take your general "sense" of a healthy type and use this as an analogy to help type an unhealthy type. Like feelers that are healthy are always positive, friendly, nice, warm, compassionate, noble, and caring. While feeler that are unhealthy are angstful, resentful, hateful, rigid value systems, paranoid, and depressed. Some people seem not to understand this polar relation and will use the general sense of a feeler being friendly to label thinkers as mean people or at least people that aren't friendly. In this case I think the person used an analogy of a healthy ENTp to place the unhealthy types of the shooters as ENTp, while the logic is just as flawed as the above example.

[Exodus]

Yeah, for sure. Both healthy and unhealthy manifestations of types need to be considered - that's why I don't like descriptions, they are almost invariably overly positive or overly negative.

the idea of some ENTps being outsiders and not blending in with society was one idea the guy mentioned.

I think this is a misconception to begin with; ENTps are less likely to be outsiders than most types (i.e. most introverts). Even when universally disliked, they are not likely to become totally isolated like that.

[Steve]

Let me clarify what I originally was getting at.

I saw the first three guys as ENTp-Ti (pretending that they were completely normal people, and that's the type that seemed most fitting).(VA-Tech not as sure about, the only reason I thought ENTp possibly was after watching the video of him saying what he had to say). Now, given that these were/are NOT normal people, but instead psychologically disturbed individuals, I was very curious to see how someone of ANY type could go wrong like that, and given that one or two I think may be my identical, I was particularly interested to see how they can take a mindset of an ENTp and turn it so bad, so negative, and distort reality to try to rationalize their actions.

A healthy ENTp stands out from society because they are brilliant, inventive, and understand society in intuitive ways -- thats the reasoning behind that statement. However these people stand out in a different way, in a resentful, angstful, hateful, and loner type kind of way.

Yes - the positive qualities you mentioned are what an ENTp SHOULD be. That is a NORMAL HEALTHY ENTp. BUT, what about the unhealthy, disturbed, distorted, pathological ones? Could these be examples of the type going bad to the extreme?

Here's a possible thought I had. Is that they can use Ne in destructive ways to figure out possibilities for inflicting damage, and when they feel that they aren't accepted, they use Ne Ti to unhealthily rationalize unthinkable actions (again being disturbed individuals - NORMAL unhappy ENTps would never do this).

In other words, I was particularly interested on what different things would cause different types to rationalize such horrific actions. I'm curious as to how an ISTj would rationalize doing something like that and how it would be different as to how an ENTp would rationalize it for example, still keeping in mind that each would still have psychological disorders.

[Steve]

Yeah, for sure. Both healthy and unhealthy manifestations of types need to be considered - that's why I don't like descriptions, they are almost invariably overly positive or overly negative.

Yes right this is what I meant. I'm just curious in figuring out all there is about the type, and to do so, you gotta consider both healthy and unhealthy examples.

the idea of some ENTps being outsiders and not blending in with society was one idea the guy mentioned.

I think this is a misconception to begin with; ENTps are less likely to be outsiders than most types (i.e. most introverts). Even when universally disliked, they are not likely to become totally isolated like that.

Yeah I think you're right, they are not likely to do that, they are instead more likely to vent and express themselves. But again keep in mind you're talking about healthy ENTps. I was curious if unhealthy ENTps could possibly adopt isolative habits and take all the potential good of their functions and use them in destructive ways and rationalize it if they are pathological.

[Exodus]

Yeah, I am only familiar with garden-variety unhealthy ENTp behavior. It basically consists of going overboard with the Hidden Agenda, and realizing how everyone hates you, no matter how witty you think you are.

What could lead an ENTp to shoot someone - who knows. I think such acts - when done purely for the sake of violence - are inherently related to Se. One reason an ENTp (or the other Ne types, to some extent) might consciously commit a violent crime would be just to see if he could get away with it, if there was some way to commit "the perfect crime", given what he knows about criminology, etc.

[Steve]

And for the record I'm less sure of Klebold's type, but Harris is certainly a Ti sub EP (Fe hidden agenda).
The Santee guy though I definitely think is ILE-Ti.

[Exodus]

They certainly do look ENTp, I'll grant you that.

[Creepy-male]

Let me clarify what I originally was getting at.

I saw the first three guys as ENTp-Ti (pretending that they were completely normal people, and that's the type that seemed most fitting).(VA-Tech not as sure about, the only reason I thought ENTp possibly was after watching the video of him saying what he had to say). Now, given that these were/are NOT normal people, but instead psychologically disturbed individuals, I was very curious to see how someone of ANY type could go wrong like that, and given that one or two I think may be my identical, I was particularly interested to see how they can take a mindset of an ENTp and turn it so bad, so negative, and distort reality to try to rationalize their actions.

A healthy ENTp stands out from society because they are brilliant, inventive, and understand society in intuitive ways -- thats the reasoning behind that statement. However these people stand out in a different way, in a resentful, angstful, hateful, and loner type kind of way.

Yes - the positive qualities you mentioned are what an ENTp SHOULD be. That is a NORMAL HEALTHY ENTp. BUT, what about the unhealthy, disturbed, distorted, pathological ones? Could these be examples of the type going bad to the extreme?

Here's a possible thought I had. Is that they can use Ne in destructive ways to figure out possibilities for inflicting damage, and when they feel that they aren't accepted, they use Ne Ti to unhealthily rationalize unthinkable actions (again being disturbed individuals - NORMAL unhappy ENTps would never do this).

In other words, I was particularly interested on what different things would cause different types to rationalize such horrific actions. I'm curious as to how an ISTj would rationalize doing something like that and how it would be different as to how an ENTp would rationalize it for example, still keeping in mind that each would still have psychological disorders.

Well this is simple, ENTp's in the positive are extremely creative and inventive, they ride along life and are easily inspired to come up with brilliant ideas, whether for the government, for a mechinical invention, or even the idea to find a new path to the east indies (columbus went from place to place trying to push this idea in europe). They are just naturally finding new a better possibilities for the system, and these possibilities are concerned with functionality. Without ENTp's many of the comforts of society never would have a crossed a person's mind. ENTp are great with improvisational logic and debate, you can argue with a ENTp on the spot, this is harder for an INTj for example, because they argue on a point with lots of knowledge and its harder for them to be flexible. Anyways these are the positives of ENTp's.

The negative of an ENTp would consist of using in negative ways. Like twisting laws and interpretations to feed their individual needs, this is because it allows them see different possibilities and imagine various scenarios. ENTp's are also likely in the negative to use rationalization, since they are very good at improvisational debate, they can easily one up a person in an argument even if the other person is truely in the right. They also may be able to convince others to join their point. Think of the Sleazy Defense Lawyer, great at twisting the law and instilling doubt and false belief of innocence. All in All ENTp's are usually very clever, and in the negative you can find them twisting reality to fit their needs. All Intuitives can twist reality, but ENTp's are likely to do it on the spot with a logical basis better than the rest.

This doesn't seem like the school shooters to me.

An ISTj in the negative is different.

In the negative you can find ISTj using authority and position in order to be cruel to those below them they don't like, and to use excuses concerning functionality of the social system. An ISTj could end up giving a subordinate they dont like a real hard time, constantly on their case and over reacting, then they are likely to rationalize it off as them being worthless members of society etc and not being dependable enough etc.

At any rate the negative side of the Thinker is usually faulty logic, like rationalizing genocide, killing, murder as helping society, as an example.
Feelers focus more on the raw emotion of the negative side of things, hate, rage, angst, depression etc.....
However both have their same roots and its likely a person operating out of this pole will have both, so you have to determine which one they mainly operate with.

[olduser]

i agree with rick about klebold and harris(he might be intp, though). i think the va guy was intp. It was slightly unsettling to watch him be violent and aggressive because it seemed really out of place with his appearance.

[eunice]

At least we can leave out the types with a Se PoLR. I think people who feel comfortable with aggression and violence tend to be Se or Se seeking. (No offense here.)

[UDP]

At least we can leave out the types with a Se PoLR. I think people who feel comfortable with aggression and violence tend to be Se or Se seeking. (No offense here.)

unfortunately that's completely false.

Robispierre - INTj - Reign of Terror.

There is no fury quite like an INTj fury who is absolutely convinced you've done something wrong, especially if he feels threatened in an Se way. He will not tolerate subordination as it is. He will not tolerate pure evil if he sees it as such either. They can only be reached through spheres relation, as it is said. Logic remarks will only make things worse, as, if an INTj wants to take things personally and see the fault in anything, it can be seen.


If you destroy or breach an INFj's sacred relationship with someone, or a family member, it will not hold back. How would you react if you had to defend the person who meant most to you in the world?


An INTj could be brainwashed or brainwash others into believing the logical necessity of having to exterminate someone or some people.


and so on....



bottom line: everyone.... they're all humans

[olduser]

UDP, i think she means physical aggression, acts of violence when she speas of Se. An INTj can be aggressive, but would probably not sacrifice their clarity and incisive logic by using physical force(which is often the case). Part of the INxj personality is they are often physically unaware and without thoughts of violence, and rather than use force the INFj appeals to someone's inherit moral, the INTj appeals to people's logic with their rock-solid thoughts.

also, whenever you speak of intj your writing style is really annoying. You could persuade and inform others better if your writing wasn't like the style of writing you read etched into tablets of marble.

[Expat]

On Robespierre, although I am not sure that INTj is a better type for him than ISTj, it is relevant that, even as he sent thousands to the guillotine, he had no inclination to actually watch people being guillotined --

So he argued fervently for the execution of Louis XVI, a very controversial issue even among revolutionaries, but on the day of the execution he locked himself in his flat, he didn't even want to see the king's coach passing by his window.

Compare that to the ESTp Peter the Great, who at least once handled the axe himself to execute some rebelling soldiers - and for whom 17th-century dentistry (ie removing people's teeth without any painkiller) was a hobby.

That could be a key issue to indeed disregard INTj for those kinds of guys.

[Expat]

Aha, heath was quicker than I.

[Blaze]

are you sure you aren't just projecting here Steve? how's things going at home?

LOL

[UDP]

UDP, i think she means physical aggression, acts of violence when she speaks of Se. An INTj can be aggressive, but would probably not sacrifice their clarity and incisive logic by using physical force(which is often the case). Part of the INxj personality is they are often physically unaware and without thoughts of violence, and rather than use force the INFj appeals to someone's inherit moral, the INTj appeals to people's logic with their rock-solid thoughts.

also, whenever you speak of intj your writing style is really annoying. You could persuade and inform others better if your writing wasn't like the style of writing you read etched into tablets of marble.

Marble tablets are a bad thing?

As for the rest of what you said, that is reasonable.

[UDP]

On Robespierre, although I am not sure that INTj is a better type for him than ISTj, it is relevant that, even as he sent thousands to the guillotine, he had no inclination to actually watch people being guillotined --

So he argued fervently for the execution of Louis XVI, a very controversial issue even among revolutionaries, but on the day of the execution he locked himself in his flat, he didn't even want to see the king's coach passing by his window.

Compare that to the ESTp Peter the Great, who at least once handled the axe himself to execute some rebelling soldiers - and for whom 17th-century dentistry (ie removing people's teeth without any painkiller) was a hobby.

That could be a key issue to indeed disregard INTj for those kinds of guys.

I understand what you are trying to say. I am not sure why not wanting to wacth someone be executed would be unlikely for an INTj, however.

[Expat]

I understand what you are trying to say. I am not sure why not wanting to wacth someone be executed would be unlikely for an INTj, however.

Sorry, I was unclear --

On the contrary, I think that not wanting to watch someone be executed is a case for INTj, which is consistent with Maxime being INTj and therefore with eunice's argument, even if your point on Maxime's Terror remains equally valid.

For other reasons, sometimes I am inclined to see him as ISTj rather than INTj; I ended up muddling the two things in my post.

[olduser]

Marble tablets are a bad thing?

no, but this statement is illogical. I said your style of writing was bad. It's out of place. It turns people away from what you are writing. And while your style is definitely acceptable(we are not here to judge, and in the same breath, we are not here to accommodate) you must realize you are here to converse with other people. A weird act in which we write messages that inform, persuade, acknowledge, or reprimand others. I know when people act incredibly strange without giving a good reason I pay more attention to their strangeness than their words. Just something for you to consider.

[UDP]

Marble tablets are a bad thing?

no, but this statement is illogical. I said your style of writing was bad. It's out of place. It turns people away from what you are writing. And while your style is definitely acceptable(we are not here to judge, and in the same breath, we are not here to accommodate) you must realize you are here to converse with other people. A weird act in which we write messages that inform, persuade, acknowledge, or reprimand others. I know when people act incredibly strange without giving a good reason I pay more attention to their strangeness than their words. Just something for you to consider.

No, actually that is useful information. I believe there is room for improvement in my writing style(s). Thank you.

[Typeless Wonder]

Don't change anything about your writing UDP. Your purpose upon this planet isn't to bow to Heath's writing preferences.

[UDP]

Your concern is appreciated.

There is an important difference between subordination and useful criticism. One of my favorite aspects of the INTJ profile has always been

http://www.personalitypage.com/INTJ_per.html[/url] ]They don't take criticism personally, and are open to changing their opinions when they're shown a better idea or better way of doing something.

I have had no reserves about emotional heated battles about other things, defending issues, aggressively attacking/defending 'opponents'. At this stage however, I find the process very unappealing. If you have got something useful, then let us here it - I may be interested. If you are just looking to gratify your ego, get emotional, or get personal, then go talk to a wall - there is little to be gained (from my perspective). Although even overtly attacking people may sometimes have something useful that can be salvaged - I just have to remember that I am not required react and continue the attacking process; I have gotten into many fruitless battles as such, and especially in regard to my "To Logic" thread, I am slowly becoming more comfortable with just not getting emotionally involved.

Heath's personal preferences are of no concern to me.

I know when people act incredibly strange without giving a good reason I pay more attention to their strangeness than their words

I am not going to vary my writing in trying to live up to someone else's personal tastes, but I do agree with the above remark in general. That is to say, I value functionality and effectiveness over anyone's personal likes or dislikes. If anyone says something that may improve effectiveness, I may consider it. If someone 'just doesn't like' something because of personal reasonings, then they can deal with it. And so on... (this post was tedious in writing but I figure I'll write it allll out anyway)

[olduser]

Don't change anything about your writing UDP. Your purpose upon this planet isn't to bow to Heath's writing preferences.

and my purpose wasn't to subordinate udp. silly you, not understanding things and stuff.