Tutorial: how to get along with SEIs-ISFps

[Rubicon]

I can't answer for all ISFps but I can answer for myself....I would MUCH RATHER people be genuine than put on a charade for me!

You speak for me too

[Rubicon]

Most of us thoroughly enjoy discussing topics of interest. It's just it has to be about the topic and not about who's right/wrong.

Exactly!

[Suomea]

I can't answer for all ISFps but I can answer for myself....I would MUCH RATHER people be genuine than put on a charade for me!

And about that bit on personal attack...the right wording will get you far. For instance, "You're wrong, it's like this..." won't be recieved as well as "I'm concerned that you don't have the right information, the sources I've come across tell me something different than what you said, would you be interested in hearing about it?" The latter would not make me feel attacked and I'm sure it wouldn't make most other ISFps feel attacked either.

Most of us thoroughly enjoy discussing topics of interest. It's just it has to be about the topic and not about who's right/wrong.

Hehe.... see this is why ENTps and ISFps are duals....: ) I can easily defend against information attacks and maintain my Ti state of mind normally, but I much prefer a non-aggressive discussion of truth over a verbal attack battle, and I rarely make someone look bad information wise unless they are really asking for it and pushing it.....

And on a reverse note they protect me in terms of giving me a forum to express my Fe and protect me against Fi related attacks.

[Kristiina]

Hehe.... see this is why ENTps and ISFps are duals....: ) I can easily defend against information attacks and maintain my Ti state of mind normally, but I much prefer a non-aggressive discussion of truth over a verbal attack battle, and I rarely make someone look bad information wise unless they are really asking for it and pushing it.....

And on a reverse note they protect me in terms of giving me a forum to express my Fe and protect me against Fi related attacks.

I prefer very to-the-point discussions. When I disagree with someone, I just say, "no, you're wrong." and explain why they're wrong. Of course I can't do that with everyone. Sometimes I just have to "soften" my choice of words.

The Mime, you say you'd rather be with "genuine" people, but then you go into saying that people should choose their words. If you hear me saying anything along the lines of, ""I'm concerned that you don't have the right information...", you can assume I'm hiding my real reaction and giving you a fake softened reaction. I'm already leaving some things unsaid. With ISFps it's usually the easiest to think long and hard before I voice any opposing opinions. This is why I usually just end up seemingly agreeing with everything they say. Call it fake if you want, but I say I'm just avoiding conflict.

[theMime.]

I prefer very to-the-point discussions. When I disagree with someone, I just say, "no, you're wrong." and explain why they're wrong. Of course I can't do that with everyone. Sometimes I just have to "soften" my choice of words.

The Mime, you say you'd rather be with "genuine" people, but then you go into saying that people should choose their words. If you hear me saying anything along the lines of, ""I'm concerned that you don't have the right information...", you can assume I'm hiding my real reaction and giving you a fake softened reaction. I'm already leaving some things unsaid. With ISFps it's usually the easiest to think long and hard before I voice any opposing opinions. This is why I usually just end up seemingly agreeing with everything they say. Call it fake if you want, but I say I'm just avoiding conflict.

So you're saying that to say it that way is not your style of speech and therefore would make you feel like you are being fake. Ok makes sense. If it made people feel like they were not being genuine then I wouldn't expect it from them but I'm sure that not everybody feels that they would be fake by changing their wording. I for one don't, I change my wording all the time because I don't like offendinng people.

Some reasons for arguing:
A) to prove the other person wrong
B) to prove the point wrong
C) to make sure that the other party has accurate information
D) Out of anger and just to release anger and make the other person seem dumb

When you want to argue/debate/discuss with an ISFp what are your reasons for doing so? If it's B or C I'm sure many of us will be open to and probably interested the conversation if we know where you're coming from. If it's A or D I'm sure that a lot of us would simply have no interest whatsoever in the discussion. I would (often) take option A as a personal attack because it's focused on me. It's focussed on the fact that I'M wrong instead of focusing on the fact that my argument/belief/stand point is flawed or wrong.

Call it fake if you want, but I say I'm just avoiding conflict.

Yes, strategy for avoiding conflict. It works too. Just frustrating, I imagine. =/

Geez, I had no idea our need for peace could cause so many problems. =(

Also, I understand that although many people prefer being genuine I suppose it's just not always possible, unfortunately. I still hold the view that almost any relationship can improve with effort though.

[theMime.]

What you say make a lot of sense.
I do try to avoid A and D... but I'm not sure how good I am at it.

You're wonderful at it.
I was actually just noticing that.
=)

But don't worry even if you used A on me I wouldn't care cuz I know you (well sorta) and I know that you're a good guy.

[XoX]

Geez, I had no idea our need for peace could cause so many problems. =(

Heh. With ENTjs it is worse than with ENFjs because they think somewhat similarly but do not pay too much attention to "Fe concerns" i.e. they don't "fake it" in order to avoid conflict. And their trademark is to call people dumb for saying things they perceive as untrue and they "personify" a lot of things. It is not just "an argument" for an ENTj. It is YOUR argument.

[theMime.]

Heh. With ENTjs it is worse than with ENFjs because they think somewhat similarly but do not pay too much attention to "Fe concerns" i.e. they don't "fake it" in order to avoid conflict. And their trademark is to call people dumb for saying things they perceive as untrue and they "personify" a lot of things. It is not just "an argument" for an ENTj. It is YOUR argument.

Well if I were in a good mood I'd probably take up an argument with an ENTj just for the thrill of it (probably my enneagram 4 talking) although I'm sure most would absolutely slaughter me.

I can see why the ISFp/ENTj conflictor pair would drive each other crazy.

Wait so most ENTjs argue at people instead of just at the topic?

[Kristiina]

Heh. With ENTjs it is worse than with ENFjs because they think somewhat similarly but do not pay too much attention to "Fe concerns" i.e. they don't "fake it" in order to avoid conflict. And their trademark is to call people dumb for saying things they perceive as untrue and they "personify" a lot of things. It is not just "an argument" for an ENTj. It is YOUR argument.

lol. good post. Oh so true.

And another thing - they say us beta NFs use empty personal arguements, e.g. "you're too stupid. You lose. This discussion is over." whereas gamma NT would be making the same conclusion, but will try their best to describe in detail how stupid the other person really is. "You're being stupid, look what you said on page 37 of this thread. And then on page 53 you contradicted yourself!" Which one is really more personal - the one who ends the discussion or the one trying their best to rub the salt in?

[XoX]

Wait so most ENTjs argue at people instead of just at the topic?

I didn't say that! Because soon Expat and his claws will be here. Technically ENTjs argue in a very objective way. Te is by definition extroverted and objective (unlike Ti that is introverted and subjective). Despite this they seem to make a lot of personal "comments". Perhaps they don't mean it that way but it seems at least Fe quadra people take them very personally so they must do something "wrong". I'm sure ENTjs would say that Fe is the function that really turns objective into personal and subjective. Did I just contradict myself?

[Suomea]

Well if I were in a good mood I'd probably take up an argument with an ENTj just for the thrill of it (probably my enneagram 4 talking) although I'm sure most would absolutely slaughter me.

I can see why the ISFp/ENTj conflictor pair would drive each other crazy.

Wait so most ENTjs argue at people instead of just at the topic?

I think ENTps mediate the experience between ENTjs and ISFps I believe. In order to keep ENTps happy ENTjs are forced to attack the argument and not the intelligence or logical ability of the person, and if they do attack the logical ability of the person they run the risk of looking cognitively rediculous themselves by losing sight of the argument itself, which I doubt any ENTj really wants anywho.

[theMime.]

I didn't say that! Because soon Expat and his claws will be here. Technically ENTjs argue in a very objective way. Te is by definition extroverted and objective (unlike Ti that is introverted and subjective). Despite this they seem to make a lot of personal "comments". Perhaps they don't mean it that way but it seems at least Fe quadra people take them very personally so they must do something "wrong". I'm sure ENTjs would say that Fe is the function that really turns objective into personal and subjective. Did I just contradict myself?

OK got it!
Haha i dunno if you just conradicted yourself or not but I get what you're saying about objective and subjective.

[Rubicon]

Some reasons for arguing:
A) to prove the other person wrong
B) to prove the point wrong
C) to make sure that the other party has accurate information
D) Out of anger and just to release anger and make the other person seem dumb

Some more reasons for arguing ...
- just for fun / for the hell of it
- to gain a more wholistic perspective of the topic
- to strengthen own opinions (taking devil's advocate role)

What I find annoying are people who go into an argument with blinders on - unprepared to budge one inch from their stance. I don't really mind the argument getting heated or anything like that - it's just when you're trying to be openminded and reasonable and the other person is hardly even listening to you when you're talking - it's like they're just using your 'talk time' to think of another angle to come at you from. Using underhanded measures like attacking the person is not logical - that's what annoys me about it - they do nothing to further their argument, so therefore the person is only demonstrating a lack of reasoning skills and making themselves look stupid. Obviously they're too proud to admit they're wrong or their arguments aren't very strong if they feel they have to resort to that sort of thing. I can handle confrontation and accusations if it's for the right reasons (the person is hurt and wants to confront you about it, or they think it's for your own good or something like that) - I just don't like it when it's obviously just sheer meanness on their part and to further their own agenda. I would much rather someone yell at me or whatever about some problem they have with me than have to deal with unspoken grudges. Sure I'll probably get upset, but that's natural - it doesn't me I can't handle it. But anyway, the point of this post is that it's all about intentions as far as I'm concerned. If the person has good intentions, well then I don't care if they're not very tactful about something they say. I wouldn't want people to feel like they have to tiptoe around me or do research into psychology before they can bring something up with me. I like to know if people have problems with me. Mime, do you agree with this?

[theMime.]

Some more reasons for arguing ...
- just for fun / for the hell of it
- to gain a more wholistic perspective of the topic
- to strengthen own opinions (taking devil's advocate role)

What I find annoying are people who go into an argument with blinders on - unprepared to budge one inch from their stance. I don't really mind the argument getting heated or anything like that - it's just when you're trying to be openminded and reasonable and the other person is hardly even listening to you when you're talking - it's like they're just using your 'talk time' to think of another angle to come at you from. Using underhanded measures like attacking the person is not logical - that's what annoys me about it - they do nothing to further their argument, so therefore the person is only demonstrating a lack of reasoning skills and making themselves look stupid. Obviously they're too proud to admit they're wrong or their arguments aren't very strong if they feel they have to resort to that sort of thing. I can handle confrontation and accusations if it's for the right reasons (the person is hurt and wants to confront you about it, or they think it's for your own good or something like that) - I just don't like it when it's obviously just sheer meanness on their part and to further their own agenda. I would much rather someone yell at me or whatever about some problem they have with me than have to deal with unspoken grudges. Sure I'll probably get upset, but that's natural - it doesn't me I can't handle it. But anyway, the point of this post is that it's all about intentions as far as I'm concerned. If the person has good intentions, well then I don't care if they're not very tactful about something they say. I wouldn't want people to feel like they have to tiptoe around me or do research into psychology before they can bring something up with me. I like to know if people have problems with me. Mime, do you agree with this?

I agree 100%!!!

And it's the same way with me too... I might get upset but like you said that's natural and if people have good intentions I'd rather they'd confront me if they need to instead of feeling like they have to tip toe around me. And also like you said I don't care if the person isn't tactful if they have good intentions.

All the stuff I said before about ways to possibly not offend ISFps was because it seemed like that might be something people wanted to know. Seemed like they wanted to know how to not offend us but I may have misenterpreted. But like you and me said before, getting upset is natural, it's gonna happen but if the other person isn't maliciously trying to hurt me or something like that then I'm not gonna trip about it.

[Mediator Kam]

What I find annoying are people who go into an argument with blinders on - unprepared to budge one inch from their stance.

I do that all the time man. If I am arguing about something that affects my value system, I will listen to what the person says, but they are obviously wrong because my values system is right. Now I have experienced what you are talking about with ENFj's, who I have a problem with in that regard. I have disproved them, but they still fight.

[xyz]

You could also give them flash clips to distract em.

[Suomea]

Some more reasons for arguing ...
- just for fun / for the hell of it
- to gain a more wholistic perspective of the topic
- to strengthen own opinions (taking devil's advocate role)

What I find annoying are people who go into an argument with blinders on - unprepared to budge one inch from their stance. I don't really mind the argument getting heated or anything like that - it's just when you're trying to be openminded and reasonable and the other person is hardly even listening to you when you're talking - it's like they're just using your 'talk time' to think of another angle to come at you from. Using underhanded measures like attacking the person is not logical - that's what annoys me about it - they do nothing to further their argument, so therefore the person is only demonstrating a lack of reasoning skills and making themselves look stupid. Obviously they're too proud to admit they're wrong or their arguments aren't very strong if they feel they have to resort to that sort of thing. I can handle confrontation and accusations if it's for the right reasons (the person is hurt and wants to confront you about it, or they think it's for your own good or something like that) - I just don't like it when it's obviously just sheer meanness on their part and to further their own agenda. I would much rather someone yell at me or whatever about some problem they have with me than have to deal with unspoken grudges. Sure I'll probably get upset, but that's natural - it doesn't me I can't handle it. But anyway, the point of this post is that it's all about intentions as far as I'm concerned. If the person has good intentions, well then I don't care if they're not very tactful about something they say. I wouldn't want people to feel like they have to tiptoe around me or do research into psychology before they can bring something up with me. I like to know if people have problems with me. Mime, do you agree with this?

Wow....that was a really good post....

[Rubicon]

I agree 100%!!!

And it's the same way with me too... I might get upset but like you said that's natural and if people have good intentions I'd rather they'd confront me if they need to instead of feeling like they have to tip toe around me. And also like you said I don't care if the person isn't tactful if they have good intentions.

All the stuff I said before about ways to possibly not offend ISFps was because it seemed like that might be something people wanted to know. Seemed like they wanted to know how to not offend us but I may have misenterpreted. But like you and me said before, getting upset is natural, it's gonna happen but if the other person isn't maliciously trying to hurt me or something like that then I'm not gonna trip about it.

Being in agreement is a good feeling isn't it

[Rubicon]

Wow....that was a really good post....

Thanks!

[theMime.]

I do that all the time man. If I am arguing about something that affects my value system, I will listen to what the person says, but they are obviously wrong because my values system is right. Now I have experienced what you are talking about with ENFj's, who I have a problem with in that regard. I have disproved them, but they still fight.

ahhh the different flavors of SEI.
so many different types of us out there.

[theMime.]

ISFps - Taste the rainbow.

.........................Sorry, I couldn't help it.

HAHAHAHAHA.
=)

[theMime.]

What I was getting at with the wording was not so much the actual wording but simply letting the other person know where you're coming from. Letting them know that you're not trying to attack them or make them look dumb or hurt them or whatever because that's really the only reason I can see why an ISFp would not want to enter into a discussion unless of course it was a boring discussion.

And tone of voice is even more important.
You can say "You're wrong" in a tone of voice that is informative, or helpful, or concerned or something like that and the other person will know that you have good intentions when it comes to what you're about to say.

So it's likely you won't need to explain where you're coming from if you do it with the tone of your voice. You would only need to explain where you were coming from if the ISFp thought you were being hostile when you weren't. "You're wrong!" in an angry or hostile tone of voice would lead anybody to get defensive.

What say you fellow ISFps?

[Mediator Kam]

What I was getting at with the wording was not so much the actual wording but simply letting the other person know where you're coming from. Letting them know that you're not trying to attack them or make them look dumb or hurt them or whatever because that's really the only reason I can see why an ISFp would not want to enter into a discussion unless of course it was a boring discussion.

And tone of voice is even more important.
You can say "You're wrong" in a tone of voice that is informative, or helpful, or concerned or something like that and the other person will know that you have good intentions when it comes to what you're about to say.

So it's likely you won't need to explain where you're coming from if you do it with the tone of your voice. You would only need to explain where you were coming from if the ISFp thought you were being hostile when you weren't. "You're wrong!" in an angry or hostile tone of voice would lead anybody to get defensive.

What say you fellow ISFps?

definitely, if I get attacked like that in a matter of opinion or discussion, I immediately rebuke them and say "You're wrong!"

If it is homework, I am mildly miffed, but that is all.

Definite use of . More proof that 4's can be sensing. Phaedrus is wrong when it comes to that.

[Mediator Kam]

Here's a question, there are someone people that ask me questions.... like about stuff.. but they ask in the right way. I don't know why... but it seems to work for me...

Other people it's like they ask me questions before they even know what their question is.. like they didn't think about it before they asked.. or they ask something way too vague for me to answer or they just ask something that is obvious or something that does not relate to the actual problem, and I spend most of the time figuring out what the real questions are... I can be a pretty big asshole in these kind of situations and I wish I wasn't... but I show my annoyance uncontrollably. It's not really something I want to do, but somehow it happens..

How does a ISFp respond to that?

I wait there "acting" annoyed until they get their act together. I'm a pretty light-hearted guy, I personally do what was said above at times, "thinking out loud."

[Mediator Kam]

Like, a person will ask a question, and they'll say "tell me the truth!" but you know they don't really want to know the truth,

I feel a bit of a paradox. If someone said that to me, I'd refuse to talk to them, because I can not believe someone would doubt another person's honesty. It's almost illegal to do that in my "world". It's pretty naive I guess, but that is how I feel.

[theMime.]

Actually everything I said was a lie and the only way to get along with ISFps is to buy them 5 pounds of gummy worms and take them to the zoo.

haha.

[Mediator Kam]

Gummy worms give diabetes.

But I really like them.

[theMime.]

Gummy worms give diabetes.

But I really like them.

DIABETES?
OH CRAP!

*falls over and dies because the diabetes finally took effect*


Try sugar free, Kamangir.
I looooveeess me some sugar free sweet stuff.
Especially those crystal light drinks. yup.

[Mediator Kam]

One of the happiest days of my life was at the Zoo, and it was also one of the most frightening for my aunt.

Well:

My best friend's hot
My best friend's hot
No matter what I do
You'll love me not.....

Elaborate please.

[Rubicon]

(Quoting Mime) What I was getting at with the wording was not so much the actual wording but simply letting the other person know where you're coming from. Letting them know that you're not trying to attack them or make them look dumb or hurt them or whatever because that's really the only reason I can see why an ISFp would not want to enter into a discussion unless of course it was a boring discussion.

And tone of voice is even more important.
You can say "You're wrong" in a tone of voice that is informative, or helpful, or concerned or something like that and the other person will know that you have good intentions when it comes to what you're about to say.

So it's likely you won't need to explain where you're coming from if you do it with the tone of your voice. You would only need to explain where you were coming from if the ISFp thought you were being hostile when you weren't. "You're wrong!" in an angry or hostile tone of voice would lead anybody to get defensive.

What say you fellow ISFps?

It's weird - I log out everyone time I go to page 6 for some reason ... I had to copy/paste your quote in.

Anyway ... I understand where you're coming from, Mime, - re letting the person know where you're coming from and using an appropriate tone of voice ... but personally, I think that this applies more to us as ISFps. I mean I always think about the delivery if I have to say something that may not go down well - I think that just comes naturally to our type ... but I don't think it's fair to expect people who aren't naturally diplomatic to employ it for our sakes. I mean I think we're 'intuitive' enough (I use that word in a non-socionic sense ) to gather what their intentions are without them having to overly exert themselves.

[Rubicon]

(Quoting hkkmr) Here's a question, there are someone people that ask me questions.... like about stuff.. but they ask in the right way. I don't know why... but it seems to work for me...

Other people it's like they ask me questions before they even know what their question is.. like they didn't think about it before they asked.. or they ask something way too vague for me to answer or they just ask something that is obvious or something that does not relate to the actual problem, and I spend most of the time figuring out what the real questions are... I can be a pretty big asshole in these kind of situations and I wish I wasn't... but I show my annoyance uncontrollably. It's not really something I want to do, but somehow it happens..

How does a ISFp respond to that?

You mean people who ask questions just for the sake of it - not really wanting to know the answers? That sort of annoys me too. I would probably mumble an answer as vague as their question or shoot some ridiculous questions back at them.

[xyz]

DIABETES?
OH CRAP!

*falls over and dies because the diabetes finally took effect*


Try sugar free, Kamangir.
I looooveeess me some sugar free sweet stuff.
Especially those crystal light drinks. yup.

Sugar free gives you cancer.

[theMime.]

(Quoting Mime) What I was getting at with the wording was not so much the actual wording but simply letting the other person know where you're coming from. Letting them know that you're not trying to attack them or make them look dumb or hurt them or whatever because that's really the only reason I can see why an ISFp would not want to enter into a discussion unless of course it was a boring discussion.

And tone of voice is even more important.
You can say "You're wrong" in a tone of voice that is informative, or helpful, or concerned or something like that and the other person will know that you have good intentions when it comes to what you're about to say.

So it's likely you won't need to explain where you're coming from if you do it with the tone of your voice. You would only need to explain where you were coming from if the ISFp thought you were being hostile when you weren't. "You're wrong!" in an angry or hostile tone of voice would lead anybody to get defensive.

What say you fellow ISFps?

It's weird - I log out everyone time I go to page 6 for some reason ... I had to copy/paste your quote in.

Anyway ... I understand where you're coming from, Mime, - re letting the person know where you're coming from and using an appropriate tone of voice ... but personally, I think that this applies more to us as ISFps. I mean I always think about the delivery if I have to say something that may not go down well - I think that just comes naturally to our type ... but I don't think it's fair to expect people who aren't naturally diplomatic to employ it for our sakes. I mean I think we're 'intuitive' enough (I use that word in a non-socionic sense ) to gather what their intentions are without them having to overly exert themselves.

Yeah ok good point. It's not really fair to expect that of them.

It's just if they wanna know how to not get us defensive now they have some ideas/tips for what might work.

I usually try hard to see where the other person is coming from too.

But if you want somebody to understand where you're coming from or the point you're trying to make then the best way to do that is to make it clear through tone and explanation. If you don't care if the other person understands then it doesn't matter, of course.

[theMime.]

Sugar free gives you cancer.

Uhm I think I'll make an appointment to see the doctor now.

[xyz]

Apartame (in diet soda and sugar free gelatins like gummy worms) have come up as cancerous in certain studies. Think about it.


I just have regular butter, regular sugar, regular soda, just not as much because i'm not a fat slob.


Edit: I love you too dolphin. Cmon, gimme a hug

[Mediator Kam]

I already said that. Loser.

Why the hate?

I love you all <3.

=)

[xyz]

She hates because she secretly loves.


On another note, margarine is bad for you too.

[theMime.]

She hates because she secretly loves.


On another note, margarine is bad for you too.

yuuuuup.

uhm in my nutrition class, my teacher said that a lot of the research on sugar substitues was faulty because they were injecting so much into the rats that injecting that much of anything would kill them. She said that sugar subsitutes were fine and weren't harmful.

so either my teacher's right or you're right. or you're both right and some sugar substitutes cause cancer and some don't.

agh now I have to go do research and find out or else it will bother me.

[xyz]

Yeah i'm sure there's truth to both of our viewpoints. I just think what might work best is just a balance of it all. Like, a little sugar free here, some sugar there, and we'll all turn out ok.

[theMime.]

Yeah i'm sure there's truth to both of our viewpoints. I just think what might work best is just a balance of it all. Like, a little sugar free here, some sugar there, and we'll all turn out ok.

yin yang.

BALANCE.


yes I think so too.