Two questions

[Expat]

Indulge me, please

Comment on these two issues:

1) Someone very close to you has just had a very painful break-up -- or, rather, been unexpectedly dumped. One of the things you find helpful to say is "I know you'll find someone better".

2) If you were certain that there was no life after death, there would be no real reason to abide by any moral principles.

[UDP]

2) If you were certain that there was no life after death, there would be no real reason to abide by any moral principles.

Not I.
At a very practical level, 'morality' is useful for our current civilization, as like other common laws, it allows for structures to be built. If there was no common laws, no structure could be built, and no progress would be made as a collective unit.

I would not change my lifestyle at all if it was made clear that once you die, that's all there is to it. Quite frankly I've already been down that road several times (signature).

1) Someone very close to you has just had a very painful break-up -- or, rather, been unexpectedly dumped. One of the things you find helpful to say is "I know you'll find someone better".

If absoultely necessary I will say the simple emotional boosters, but I'd rather delegate or "make an assist" and pass it off to an ethical type, etc.

My best advice would be to explain how it would be pointless to cry about it and move on to the next event, etc. Accept it and move on. If I felt compelled to do so, I'd explain how the other person's role in the relationship has, unarguably, lead to a situation where relationship potential was not maximized, therefore, there are more advantageous oppertunities out there.

So I suppose in my own way it is saying "I know you'll find someone better", thoug I'd explain it with ... and have to translate it somewhat to a language the other person would understand.

[aestrivex]

1) Someone very close to you has just had a very painful break-up -- or, rather, been unexpectedly dumped. One of the things you find helpful to say is "I know you'll find someone better".

i say nothing and let them deal with it. nothing to do with me.

2) If you were certain that there was no life after death, there would be no real reason to abide by any moral principles.

i do not believe there exist any universal moral principles. moral principles only exist in the eyes of the subject, thus this question is meaningless.

[UDP]

My post suprises me at how LII it is.

[Drommel]

1) Someone very close to you has just had a very painful break-up -- or, rather, been unexpectedly dumped. One of the things you find helpful to say is "I know you'll find someone better".

Apparently I said it, and apparently it was helpful. And?

2) If you were certain that there was no life after death, there would be no real reason to abide by any moral principles.

Morals are created and enforced by the social system one is apart of. They have little to do with religion. (And yes, I'm certain there isn't a life after death.)

[stefana]

Indulge me, please

Comment on these two issues:

1) Someone very close to you has just had a very painful break-up -- or, rather, been unexpectedly dumped. One of the things you find helpful to say is "I know you'll find someone better".

i've been in that situation and "i know you'll find someone better" was uttered when we (or i ) were both aware that the other party concerned was a real jackass. when a close one breaks up with her partner, i want to understand what led to that outcome. so, if she isn't engaging in a monologue, i will ask her questions to get the picture. and then go from there. i'm not keen on falling back on the "i know you'll find someone better" approach because it's like soothing a bruised ego by implying that the other person was not good enough anyway. it frees the close one from any blame or responsibility that she had towards the break-up. on the other hand, i will tell her that she will find someone better if the other person was indeed a nasty partner.

2) If you were certain that there was no life after death, there would be no real reason to abide by any moral principles.

in the past and presently, i am truthfully still rather uncertain about whether life exists after death. however, that never prevented me from abiding by any moral principles (that i've adopted; goes without saying). reason being, even if there is no life after death, i believe that whatever wrongdoings that i commit, i will experience its repercussions some time in the future in this life. this probably comes off as mystical or irrational and not subjected to.. *sigh*.. much profound thought but i still believe in it regardless. even if there is no such thing as "karma" or whatever term is used in its place, i cannot discount the possibility that whoever i wrong is going to avenge for that, and worse, take it out on a close one to watch me suffer or if i happen to be not available.

i will use the obvious "do not cheat, steal, and kill" as an example of a moral principle just for the sake of this discussion. so it goes that if there is no life after death, there will be no real reason for me to abide by this principle since no afterlife means no judgement from God and hence no eternal damnation. so i can con anyone anytime i want, bed any woman's husband whenever it strikes my fancy, or hire a killer to get rid of people i despise. you and anyone else can also engage in those behaviours. after all, what are we to worry about since we are not going to face any judgement after we die. we'll just do whatever we want and to hell with others who judge us (we can even crush them). the problem with this mentality is that, it will ultimately result in a lot of misery for a lot of people on this earth. there will be no sense of safety, no trust... and the list goes on. you may feel compelled to constantly watch, not only your own back, but that of your spouse, child and other people who matter to you. life will be such a struggle (and as if it already isn't at times). you may also have to worry about how your grandchildren are going to fare on this beastly earth after you're gone. so no, i don't want that to happen. so even if there's no life after death, i'm going to (try) to stick to my principles. i hope i didn't sound crazy and over-the-top with this example. forgive.

[Creepy-bg]

Indulge me, please

Comment on these two issues:

1) Someone very close to you has just had a very painful break-up -- or, rather, been unexpectedly dumped. One of the things you find helpful to say is "I know you'll find someone better".

I'd never tell somebody this... IMO it's a useless cliche and sort of condecending at the same time (Yes, I'm aware others think different and that would be usefull for them but if this person is coming to me, they obviously are looking for my way of dealing with these things ) Instead of saying anything directly I'd lighten up their mood through other ways, indirectly by being a clown or I'd gently nudge them towards ripping on the ex. Let them come up with the reasons why they're better off without them. If it was a serious heart to heart talk I would reflect on my own past experiences with them, but never assume to tell them things about their life such as the quote above. (that second thing about the heart to heart would most likely end up becoming the first thing... a bitch fest about the old "other")

2) If you were certain that there was no life after death, there would be no real reason to abide by any moral principles.

I could never be certain of that... life is mysterious, and death moreso (I have this viewpoint by choice, even if it could be logically proven- my opinion is that the proof should be burnt and the guy who came up with it hit over the head with a coconut so he forgets about it) And even if there is no life after death that doesn't affect the validity of moral principles IMO. Whether religious in origin or not, moral principles serve a purpose and are part of the glue that holds society together... (at the same time I don't necessarily think it's all that important that moral principles be upheald with rigor... merely that they exhist will have the effect needed without everybody obsessing on following them like some dark age monks flagelating themselves)

[Minde]

Indulge me, please

Comment on these two issues:

1) Someone very close to you has just had a very painful break-up -- or, rather, been unexpectedly dumped. One of the things you find helpful to say is "I know you'll find someone better".

2) If you were certain that there was no life after death, there would be no real reason to abide by any moral principles.

*is confused*
Where are the two questions?

[Creepy-bg]

I took it as he just wants to know your thoughts on these two points... how you feel about them and what your mind does when you consider them.

[Expat]

I took it as he just wants to know your thoughts on these two points... how you feel about them and what your mind does when you consider them.

That's it.

[Kristiina]

1) Someone very close to you has just had a very painful break-up -- or, rather, been unexpectedly dumped. One of the things you find helpful to say is "I know you'll find someone better".

Agreed. If something bad happens, it's wise to remember that it was just a moment in time and things will probably get better. If there is no reason to think that the person will spend the rest of their life being alone, they'll probably find someone better.

2) If you were certain that there was no life after death, there would be no real reason to abide by any moral principles.

There are two things that balance out the evil that has been done - karma and life after death. Everything that hasn't been balanced out by karma, is to be balanced out by heaven and hell. If there is no hell, then the injustice of evil actions gets much worse. So IMO, if there is no life after death, it is even more evil to abide moral principles. (PS! My moral principles just state that I'm not supposed to deliberately make anyone's' life any worse in any way. My answer probably doesn't make sense for other kind of moral principles).

[Minde]

I took it as he just wants to know your thoughts on these two points... how you feel about them and what your mind does when you consider them.

But that was where my thoughts went. Along with, "What is he asking? What is he thinking? Where is he going with this? Those are two seemingly unconnected ideas - so what's the connection? What type of response is he looking for? Why is he speaking in second person?" and so on.

But, ok, I'll try to be indulgent.


...at a later time, though. Grandma's going to get mad if I don't come to dinner now. And ain't Grandma happy, ain't nobody happy - or so the saying goes.

[rockclimber]

1) Someone very close to you has just had a very painful break-up -- or, rather, been unexpectedly dumped. One of the things you find helpful to say is "I know you'll find someone better".

That is not something I would say, I think that would make the person feel worse. I would try to comfort the person as much as possible... listen to everything they had to say, give them a shoulder to cry on, someone to eat ice cream (or chocolate) with, or even just take a long drive. I would tell them their relationship didn't work out for a reason, and it is better for both people to be happy in a relationship than just one (or neither, for that matter).

2) If you were certain that there was no life after death, there would be no real reason to abide by any moral principles.

I couldn't be immoral, even if I was certain there was no life after death. Immorality is harmful both to individuals and society as a whole, and I could not behave in a way that would be harmful, whether emotionally or physically, to other people.

[Minde]

1) Someone very close to you has just had a very painful break-up -- or, rather, been unexpectedly dumped. One of the things you find helpful to say is "I know you'll find someone better".

If I say that, I'm either a bit arrogant or have a preview of the future.

If it's true and if I thought it might be helpful for that particular person, I might say it. But I couldn't count on it being true, even if the person they had before was the very worst person to have, because they might not "find" anyone else at all. I don't know. Saying things in that situation... I find it awkward. It usually works out better just to listen or to do something (like eat ice cream together, like rockclimber said). Or just be with them. It really depends on the person, though. Some people respond well to that type of reassurance, for others that would just make things seem worse.

2) If you were certain that there was no life after death, there would be no real reason to abide by any moral principles.

I don't think that would be entirely true. As others have mentioned, actions have consequences and there's no guarantee that one's bad choices won't come back to haunt them. At the same time, doing "good" things can result in personal catastrophe, even death. And doing "bad" things can make one's life a lot easier, and more fun.

The problem I come across when thinking about this, though, is what is the standard for right and wrong? Where does it come from? What is moral, and why?

Personally, I don't think life after death (it's existence and/or quality) is the whole point. Maybe part of the story, but not the whole thing. But I'm not entirely sure about that, yet.

[detail]

1) Someone very close to you has just had a very painful break-up -- or, rather, been unexpectedly dumped. One of the things you find helpful to say is "I know you'll find someone better".

No to the rationalization of emotions. You can say that only after it's been a while the person has been dumped, otherwise it's a bit like speaking chinese to someone who speaks english. Or:


The heart does not understand the language of the mind!

2) If you were certain that there was no life after death, there would be no real reason to abide by any moral principles.

I don't agree simply because i think they are unrelated. Like i think it's weird the statement holds for premise that the belief that there is a life after is the main and only reason to hold moral principles. Sure they can be reconciled with religious concepts, but in the end it's more a matter of moral authority and actual, written, definite laws than the actual fear of paying for one's sins i think. Anyways, i don't need more explanation than: I know many people who are certain that there is no life after death and they still abide by moral principles. I am one of those (From the point of view of my beliefs and spirituality, not scientifically certain, as i don't have any proofs) and i have reasons such as: I don't want to inflict to others what i wouldn't like them to inflict to me, i don't want to live in constant useless conflict, there is also some kind of unexplainable drive to act "correctly" towards others.


I realize the goal was not to try to disprove the statements, but i think to explain correctly what effect they had on me, i had to include the context of my thoughts, which seemed like i was trying to argue when i was not.

[UDP]

Question #1

- play this for them on Max Volume: http://new.wavlist.com/movies/326/bhrt-freedom.wav

[Phaedrus]

2) If you were certain that there was no life after death, there would be no real reason to abide by any moral principles.

The conclusion does not follow from the premise, because the existence and/or validity of moral principles is completely logically independent of the question whether there is a life after death or not. It is also completely independent of many other questions, for example whether there is a God or not.

[niveK]

Sure, why not...

1) Someone very close to you has just had a very painful break-up -- or, rather, been unexpectedly dumped. One of the things you find helpful to say is "I know you'll find someone better".

I wouldn't consider it helpful. It kind of strikes me as implying my friend has a "need" for such a relationship. Plus it seems to sweep the real issue of dealing with the pain by saying a new one will come along and replace what's "missing." I think it better to comfort the friend and remind him/her that the pain and loss is only temporary. If the relationship was bad for the friend anyway, I might point that out (depending on how possible that is) and note the advantages. If the relationship was great and beneficial, I might point out that at least it was a good experience that enhanced his/her life, even though it's ended.

Ultimately, I'd handle such an event on an individual basis. However, I sincerely doubt I'd ever make that statement.

2) If you were certain that there was no life after death, there would be no real reason to abide by any moral principles.

Well, I'll assume for the sake of making this work that you mean an afterlife wherein the quality of my existence within it is determined by my actions on Earth. Either way, it's still a bad statement. Morality shouldn't be determined by selfish avoidance of punishment or pursuit of impulsive pleasures (although it works for children, they eventual mature past that stage). Morality most likely exists for the sake of the coexistence of individuals in society, although it can be, and has been, hijacked for purposes of social control. It is, to some degree, hardwired into our brains, so without some kind of brain damage or disorder, it's rather hard for us to act against the basic moral imperatives. In fact, a curious detail of empathy, seeing others suffering causes our brains to "light up" in the same areas that would light up if we ourselves were suffering.

Out of laziness, I'll just go with the statement that you should still abide by moral principles because it's the right thing to do. I could support that statement a bit, but I figure it's probably more detail than you care to be applied to this.

[FDG]

Indulge me, please

Comment on these two issues:

1) Someone very close to you has just had a very painful break-up -- or, rather, been unexpectedly dumped. One of the things you find helpful to say is "I know you'll find someone better".

Nah. I'll ask her out. I don't think there are better or worse people, generally. I think that saying "you'll find someone better" can be said only if the person that has made the dumping was a really shitty human being. In most cases, this sentence signals envy and bitterness towards the other party, which is no good.

2) If you were certain that there was no life after death, there would be no real reason to abide by any moral principles.

First of all I don't believe in "abiding" to moral principles. Secondly, obviously not: the reason why moral principles are there is to make people's interaction go well and not to make everybody hate each other, so I would still follow them because otherwise if the principle is applied to all the population the world goes awry.

[Slacker]

Indulge me, please

Comment on these two issues:

1) Someone very close to you has just had a very painful break-up -- or, rather, been unexpectedly dumped. One of the things you find helpful to say is "I know you'll find someone better".

I can see how people could be hurt by that if they loved that person and thought that person was the best person in the world. But it's generally true - at least people will find someone better *for them* because if that person was the best person *for them* that person would still be there.

2) If you were certain that there was no life after death, there would be no real reason to abide by any moral principles.

No - it's worthwhile to try to make the world a better place, particularly if you have kids. But even if you just care about other people in general, which I think most people do. Or I hope they do. Anyway, I don't believe in life after death in the slightest but that doesn't stop me from trying to improve the world at all.

[jewels]

1) I think it'd be best to focus on the situation at hand with the person, before talking about them finding someone better. Just let them vent and work out their own emotions I think is the best way. Jumping ahead to talking about new people doesn't let them grieve (which is what they need to do to get past it). Instead, you could just let them know you understand how heartbreaking it is, and how painful. Give them chances to vent and explain to you how it's painful. Usually saying things like "you'll find someone better" is more comforting to the person saying it, than to the person hearing it.

2) I think morality gives us a happy life for the time we are living. Everyone who is sane has a natural sense of right and wrong. I believe it's a human instinct to do good. As much as some people try to ignore it, it is still there. When sane people do wrong, they feel wrong. It's a feeling you can never really shake and it will poison your life. I decided in kindergarden to never hurt others after I made a fat girl cry. I can still see her face and I would never intentionally hurt someone again. I think knowing that you have chosen the right thing to do in all situations in your life, and fessing up when you've done wrong, gives you a freedom and a joy that you can't have any other way. No matter how much you lie, you will know what you've done. And you can't feel like a good person, unless you are. So regardless of an afterlife or not, if you are not living good, you are going to feel like crap. And what a wasted life that is.

[Exodus]

Ahem.

What is the point of this thread, exactly? I assume it has something to do with faith...

And what the hell does it have to do with Non-socionic Type theories?!?

[tcaudilllg]

Why even imagine that life after death does not exist? What does it serve? If after the end of history the losers don't get their fair rejoice, then I we are all deeply immoral people.

I think that the pursuit of life after death and the concept of morality are intertwined.

[Creepy-Diana]

.

[Slacker]

Why even imagine that life after death does not exist? What does it serve? If after the end of history the losers don't get their fair rejoice, then I we are all deeply immoral people.

I think that the pursuit of life after death and the concept of morality are intertwined.

HUH?????

[aestrivex]

Why even imagine that life after death does not exist? What does it serve? If after the end of history the losers don't get their fair rejoice, then I we are all deeply immoral people.

I think that the pursuit of life after death and the concept of morality are intertwined.

HUH?????

rofl. tcaud, each and every single one of your posts are so stupid it's hilarious. i should really unignore you so that i can laugh at them.

[Ms. Kensington]

I don't agree simply because i think they are unrelated. Like i think it's weird the statement holds for premise that the belief that there is a life after is the main and only reason to hold moral principles. Sure they can be reconciled with religious concepts, but in the end it's more a matter of moral authority and actual, written, definite laws than the actual fear of paying for one's sins i think. Anyways, i don't need more explanation than: I know many people who are certain that there is no life after death and they still abide by moral principles. I am one of those (From the point of view of my beliefs and spirituality, not scientifically certain, as i don't have any proofs) and i have reasons such as: I don't want to inflict to others what i wouldn't like them to inflict to me, i don't want to live in constant useless conflict, there is also some kind of unexplainable drive to act "correctly" towards others.


I realize the goal was not to try to disprove the statements, but i think to explain correctly what effect they had on me, i had to include the context of my thoughts, which seemed like i was trying to argue when i was not.

lol, ENTp. Everyone, now imagine this with a french accent. Sounds even more so.
----

ok

1) no, but I would try to make them feel better by lightening the mood or stimulating their senses like stroking their arm or back. Or, I would just listen to them. However I do have a tendency to try to "fix" a problem of feeling bad. However I think it does more harm to lie because the truth is you don't know the future period. Or else I would not feel this way without any evidence. *takes a moment to stop frothing at the mouth at such lies*

2) Life after death sounds different than whether or not God exists. If I knew there was no God I might behave differently.

[sara]

Expat, may I know why you're asking us to comment on the following statements??

My comments:

1) Someone very close to you has just had a very painful break-up -- or, rather, been unexpectedly dumped. One of the things you find helpful to say is "I know you'll find someone better".

I don't think I'll say that becuase I don't know for sure and I can imagine that to my close friend, the ex-lover is probably the best (rightly or wrongly) or the breakup won't be so painful. If the ex-lover is a jerk (for example, beats wife), then of course, it would be easy to say that my close friend will find someone better, but in most situations it's really hard to tell.

2) If you were certain that there was no life after death, there would be no real reason to abide by any moral principles.

I think from a very selfish point of view, there IS every reason to abide by moral principles to a certain extent. Humans abide by them and if you are to live happy, you are better off conforming. You don't say rape children because if you do, you'll be locked up in jail (perhaps for life?). You can lie as much you want if you're happier that way (assuming that you don't get into legal issues for your lies). It's really just about happiness maximization.

Some people act morally because that makes them feel good. It's a preference to them, doesn't matter why they have this preference in the first place.

[Expat]

Thank you for the replies, anyone else?

Expat, may I know why you're asking us to comment on the following statements??

What is the point of this thread, exactly? I assume it has something to do with faith...

And what the hell does it have to do with Non-socionic Type theories?!?

I have noticed those statements a few times, not just recently but throughout my life, from different people. Not every day or every month, but on occasion.

I have heard the first one directed to myself, and being made to others, even in movies (where, interestingly, sometimes the point is indirectly made that it is something people say but that isn't helpful).

The second one is often made during religious debates, most recently in a debate in a very recent edition of Newsweek.

Neither of them makes sense to me, for the reasons many in this thread have cited, but they seem to make sense to some people, so I was curious as to what you'd say.

As for why in this sub-forum: well it could have gone in "Anything Goes" but I thought that perhaps some Socionics or near-Socionics conclusion might perhaps be drawn.

[anndelise]

fwiw,
i think i may have said something along the lines of the first one to you expat,
but at the time it seemed like you were doing pretty good at analyzing the relationship, pros and cons
and taking a philosphical and detached approach
hence the philosophical response along the lines of there being someone out there better suited to you than this person was.
it did seem that you were frustrated, but not something "very painful"


as for the second
i don't believe in some judgment reigning down from on high
i believe in natural consequences, action/reaction
in a natural society, if one harms the people around them, people will avoid him, retaliate, demand justice, or persecute him
i don't believe in "putting it into the hands of God"
(meanwhile, i still believe in life after death...but not judgment after death)