One of those odd little ducklings

[Minde]

...and people actually do call her Duckie.

This is a self-description:

My name is [...]. Some people call me Duckie. I live every day like it's Saturday. I write poetry. I argue. I get under your skin any way i can. I make you question yourself. I live for music and friends. I live for Christ. Screw you if you don't get it. I like wearing sleeves. I like Zumiez. I like hookah. I photograph, and I judge those who think they can. I like to figure people out. I don't put forth an effort if I don't want to. In fact, I don't do anything unless I want to.

She hates being controlled or caged, so she requires a pretty long leash (speaking from the perspective of a supervisor). She'll be cuddly and claiming the privileges of closeness one moment, then off chasing a new scent of fun the next. (She's a bit unreliable in that regard, which has annoyed me - I prefer a bit more certainty and stability in affections.) She's sharp, both in mental abilities and tongue. She tends to put herself in a higher, superior position (which can be grating). She complains a lot (often about stuff that I think should be really easy to fix - like problems with others). Her opinions are strong, and she tends to think negatively of other people. She adores being unconventional, but at the same time I can tell she craves normalcy and acceptance.

She likes the ironic and the seemingly-random-but-there's-really-a-connection-if-you're-"smart"-or-"in"-enough-to-know-where-it-lies, and has a taste for the more well-thought-out fantasies - Hitchhiker's Guide and Lord of the Rings are good examples, the books more than the movies. She's got a poetic bent, too, wherein she expresses strong emotion, and is an artistic photographer (she's got strong opinions about that, too - what constitutes a good photo).

Despite her abrasive qualities, I feel a sort of tolerant, mother-like affection for her. She has a lot of hurts and I like to act as a sort of salve when I can. And I do usually enjoy how her mind works, especially her ability to observe and cleverly comment on funny/unusual ideas.

I've learned that letting her run around as she pleases (not trying in any way to convince her to stay by my side or expecting her to follow through on boring commitments), readily listening to her while avoiding giving advice except the most well-placed and -phrased gems, asking her opinions, and responding warmly to her affectionate episodes seems to be the best way to keep her well-pleased with and trusting me.

From what I can tell, she likes me well enough, and perhaps even respects me (quite an accomplishment, let me assure you). I'm not exciting enough, I think, to maintain her interest, especially when we don't see each other on a regular basis. But when we do happen to be in the same place, she'll sidle up to my side, tightly hug me, tell me she misses me, and cuddle for a bit. I think I calm her, and she likes it, but she can only take so much before she goes to find her other friends to be with.


Opinions?

[FDG]

I'd say ENFj on a gut level. Everything you say supports the general picture I have of the type. You must really be very tolerant...

[Exodus]

ExTp. From the description of your relationship with her ENTp is more likely.

[Mea]

ENTp?

[Exodus]

Some explanation:

...and people actually do call her Duckie.

This is a self-description:

My name is [...]. Some people call me Duckie. I live every day like it's Saturday. I write poetry. I argue. I get under your skin any way i can. I make you question yourself. [Ni/Se?] I live for music and friends. I live for Christ. Screw you if you don't get it [Ti]. I like wearing sleeves. I like Zumiez. I like hookah. I photograph, and I judge those who think they can. I like to figure people out. I don't put forth an effort if I don't want to. In fact, I don't do anything unless I want to.

She hates being controlled or caged, so she requires a pretty long leash [Ep]

She'll be cuddly and claiming the privileges of closeness one moment, then off chasing a new scent of fun the next. (She's a bit unreliable in that regard, which has annoyed me - I prefer a bit more certainty and stability in affections.) [more Ep] She's sharp, both in mental abilities and tongue. [Ti/Fe]

Her opinions are strong, [Ti] and she tends to think negatively of other people [negativism?]. She adores being unconventional [Ti], but at the same time I can tell she craves normalcy and acceptance [Fe].

She likes the ironic and the seemingly-random-but-there's-really-a-connection-if-you're-"smart"-or-"in"-enough-to-know-where-it-lies, [N] and has a taste for the more well-thought-out fantasies - Hitchhiker's Guide and Lord of the Rings are good examples, the books more than the movies. She's got a poetic bent, too, wherein she expresses strong emotion [Ni?], and is an artistic photographer (she's got strong opinions about that, too - what constitutes a good photo).

Despite her abrasive qualities, I feel a sort of tolerant, mother-like affection for her [hmm]. She has a lot of hurts and I like to act as a sort of salve when I can. And I do usually enjoy how her mind works, especially her ability to observe and cleverly comment on funny/unusual ideas. [Ne/Ti]

I've learned that letting her run around as she pleases [Ep] (not trying in any way to convince her to stay by my side or expecting her to follow through on boring commitments), readily listening to her while avoiding giving advice except the most well-placed and -phrased gems [supervision here], asking her opinions, and responding warmly to her affectionate episodes seems to be the best way to keep her well-pleased with and trusting me. [I have seen INFj/ENTp supervision and it is exactly like this.]

From what I can tell, she likes me well enough, and perhaps even respects me (quite an accomplishment, let me assure you). I'm not exciting enough, I think, to maintain her interest, [Fe Ep] especially when we don't see each other on a regular basis.

but she can only take so much before she goes to find her other friends to be with. [Ep. I can't see an ENFj doing this.]

There's definitely a strong Merry preference. Some of it seems Ni-Aristocrat pretentious, maybe.

[Minde]

That's very interesting, thehotelambush, thanks for the analysis. It could indeed be a case of supervision.

I'd say ENFj on a gut level. Everything you say supports the general picture I have of the type. You must really be very tolerant...

Well, it's a lot easier to be tolerant if I understand that her annoying traits are just that - traits, not maliciousness or anything really directed at me. Even when she says or does things that hurt me, there's a lot more to be gained by taking it calmly, forgiving her, and continuing to show love to her.

I am curious as to what parts of her seem ENFjish to you?

[Expat]

There's definitely a strong Merry preference. Some of it seems Ni-Aristocrat pretentious, maybe.

Yeah that sounds good.

ENFj or, failing that, INFp. But ENFj sounds better.

[Minde]

Thank you.

[FDG]

I am curious as to what parts of her seem ENFjish to you?

Well first of all, I'd eliminate ENTp due to her religiousness (if you have read all the latest stuff Smilingeyes posted, there is a group of types defined as having "issues" in which was included the ENFj, and the specific issue was religiousness).

Her self description sounds like somebody whose main aim in life is to shock other people's sense of self and to make them question their belief. Wherever the socionics ENFj has been described, usually it's been on those terms.

[Minde]

Well first of all, I'd eliminate ENTp due to her religiousness (if you have read all the latest stuff Smilingeyes posted, there is a group of types defined as having "issues" in which was included the ENFj, and the specific issue was religiousness).

Yes, I've read it, and at another point in time he also said that NFs in general tend toward religiousness. Ok, fine, I'm not quite sure about that, but I have no concrete reason to argue with that idea. It does make sense, at least when we confine it to just a tendency. What I do take issue with, though, is the idea that anyone not an NF can't be religious.

I mean, just from a statistical (albeit anecdotal) standpoint... The majority of people I've known - not just been acquainted with, but known personally - have been "religious" in some form or another. And they all run the gamut in terms of differences in personality, at least in my perception. I've even described some of them here, and I distinctly remember one of them being typed as either an ENTp or ESTp. And one of my best friends is ESFj and I'd call her more religious than myself.

So, I'm not sure if excluding ENTp simply because she claims faith in Christ is a good way to determine her type.

But perhaps someone can further explain this to me.

[Expat]

This is a self-description:

My name is [...]. Some people call me Duckie. I live every day like it's Saturday. I write poetry. I argue. I get under your skin any way i can. I make you question yourself. I live for music and friends. I live for Christ. Screw you if you don't get it. I like wearing sleeves. I like Zumiez. I like hookah. I photograph, and I judge those who think they can. I like to figure people out. I don't put forth an effort if I don't want to. In fact, I don't do anything unless I want to.

First, this self-descriptions is a sample of -- showmanship. That's the image she wants to project. She's saying, "that's how I want you to see me". Including the in-your-face side of it. Plus the "I like to figure people out". From that self-description alone, I'd have already guessed ENFj. It doesn't matter if she's really like that.

She hates being controlled or caged, so she requires a pretty long leash (speaking from the perspective of a supervisor).

Extroversion and/or Se quadra value.

She'll be cuddly and claiming the privileges of closeness one moment, then off chasing a new scent of fun the next. (She's a bit unreliable in that regard, which has annoyed me - I prefer a bit more certainty and stability in affections.)

Either Fe>Fi or irrational Fi, seen from your Fi IJ perspective.

She's sharp, both in mental abilities and tongue. She tends to put herself in a higher, superior position (which can be grating). She complains a lot (often about stuff that I think should be really easy to fix - like problems with others). Her opinions are strong, and she tends to think negatively of other people. She adores being unconventional, but at the same time I can tell she craves normalcy and acceptance.

She likes to play the role of a superior, unconventional person. She complains mostly about problems with others because that's her main focus.

She likes the ironic and the seemingly-random-but-there's-really-a-connection-if-you're-"smart"-or-"in"-enough-to-know-where-it-lies, and has a taste for the more well-thought-out fantasies - Hitchhiker's Guide and Lord of the Rings are good examples, the books more than the movies. She's got a poetic bent, too, wherein she expresses strong emotion, and is an artistic photographer (she's got strong opinions about that, too - what constitutes a good photo).

The bit on photography might be Si but Ni as well and I think that's more likely giving the description as a whole.

Despite her abrasive qualities, I feel a sort of tolerant, mother-like affection for her. She has a lot of hurts and I like to act as a sort of salve when I can. And I do usually enjoy how her mind works, especially her ability to observe and cleverly comment on funny/unusual ideas.

I've learned that letting her run around as she pleases (not trying in any way to convince her to stay by my side or expecting her to follow through on boring commitments), readily listening to her while avoiding giving advice except the most well-placed and -phrased gems, asking her opinions, and responding warmly to her affectionate episodes seems to be the best way to keep her well-pleased with and trusting me.

Doesn't say much but it doesn't contradict the previous bit either.

From what I can tell, she likes me well enough, and perhaps even respects me (quite an accomplishment, let me assure you). I'm not exciting enough, I think, to maintain her interest, especially when we don't see each other on a regular basis. But when we do happen to be in the same place, she'll sidle up to my side, tightly hug me, tell me she misses me, and cuddle for a bit. I think I calm her, and she likes it, but she can only take so much before she goes to find her other friends to be with.

Yeah Fe>Fi.

If you go for dichotomies, I could see EJ or EP temperament, Resolute, Construct-creating. ESTp or ENFj. But she's more Victim than Aggressor.

So, ENFj.

[Minde]

Thank you, Expat. I meant explain why (if it does) NF = religiousness, if people think that, but that analysis was nice, too.

[FDG]

Well first of all, I'd eliminate ENTp due to her religiousness (if you have read all the latest stuff Smilingeyes posted, there is a group of types defined as having "issues" in which was included the ENFj, and the specific issue was religiousness).

Yes, I've read it, and at another point in time he also said that NFs in general tend toward religiousness. Ok, fine, I'm not quite sure about that, but I have no concrete reason to argue with that idea. It does make sense, at least when we confine it to just a tendency. What I do take issue with, though, is the idea that anyone not an NF can't be religious.

Here is my thought process on the issue:

I was not regarding his religiousness as an isolated fact; given that the types mentioned were ENTp and ENFj, and those were also the types that popped in my head when I first read the description, I found unlikely that an ENTp built his identity around being religiuos.
Sure, ENTps can be religious, but a self-portrayal of an ENTp is unlikely to include religiuosness in comparison to a self-portrayal of an ENFj.
By this I mean, of course, that I didn't mean anyone non-NF can't be religious - I was just focussing on the comparison between those two specific types.

I mean, just from a statistical (albeit anecdotal) standpoint... The majority of people I've known - not just been acquainted with, but known personally - have been "religious" in some form or another. And they all run the gamut in terms of differences in personality, at least in my perception. I've even described some of them here, and I distinctly remember one of them being typed as either an ENTp or ESTp. And one of my best friends is ESFj and I'd call her more religious than myself.

So, I'm not sure if excluding ENTp simply because she claims faith in Christ is a good way to determine her type.

But perhaps someone can further explain this to me.

She did not just claim her faith in Christ - she said "I live for Christ", which places a much stronger emphasis.

About NFs and religiousness. Having both not-well-defined perception and judgement probably places them (and you) in a position which gives the ability to see things that are missed by people with both well-definied J and P. Just something I thought on the spot, not backed up by previous thought or analysis.

[Kristiina]

I agree, she sounds like me. Or at least she has some of the same aspects that I have. She probably just has a stronger personality than me. I'm usually rather calm and quiet, but when I'm in a good mood, it definitely shows and I have my occasional venting-urges. Also, the strong opinions and not letting the INFj try to make me reconsider my thoughts...

In case you're wondering, I also spend a lot of time with INFjs and it's mainly because they laugh at my goofy jokes. It gives me a feeling that someone actually "gets" me. I feel like there is something I can give them (lift their moods) and spending time with them does calm me a little bit. Or actually it doesn't take much effort to get a reaction from them (even if it's a small reaction) so I don't end up over-expressing my opinions, which usually ends me being frustrated that people misunderstand me and it ends with negative comments towards me.

[Minde]

Here is my thought process on the issue:

I was not regarding his religiousness as an isolated fact; given that the types mentioned were ENTp and ENFj, and those were also the types that popped in my head when I first read the description, I found unlikely that an ENTp built his identity around being religiuos.
Sure, ENTps can be religious, but a self-portrayal of an ENTp is unlikely to include religiuosness in comparison to a self-portrayal of an ENFj.
By this I mean, of course, that I didn't mean anyone non-NF can't be religious - I was just focussing on the comparison between those two specific types.

I'm still a little skeptical. Not of your reasoning or that she's ENFj, but of religiousness correlating to type, simply because of the variety of people I've grown up and lived with. There are many, many who would put their faith as a defining factor in their self-descriptions. And many who also do "live for Christ" even if they don't put up a lot of fanfare about it - as in, it's a part of their life even if they don't make a big deal about it. So theory is seemingly contradicting experience. Which makes me a bit confuzzled.

About NFs and religiousness. Having both not-well-defined perception and judgement probably places them (and you) in a position which gives the ability to see things that are missed by people with both well-definied J and P. Just something I thought on the spot, not backed up by previous thought or analysis.

By the same token there's probably lots of things that people with well-defined perception/judging (like you) catch on to that I completely miss.

[Minde]

I agree, she sounds like me. Or at least she has some of the same aspects that I have. She probably just has a stronger personality than me. I'm usually rather calm and quiet, but when I'm in a good mood, it definitely shows and I have my occasional venting-urges. Also, the strong opinions and not letting the INFj try to make me reconsider my thoughts...

Yeah, she definitely has a strong personality. She seems a bit sharper and pricklier than you've come across. But it's hard to tell online, I guess.

In case you're wondering, I also spend a lot of time with INFjs and it's mainly because they laugh at my goofy jokes. It gives me a feeling that someone actually "gets" me. I feel like there is something I can give them (lift their moods) and spending time with them does calm me a little bit. Or actually it doesn't take much effort to get a reaction from them (even if it's a small reaction) so I don't end up over-expressing my opinions, which usually ends me being frustrated that people misunderstand me and it ends with negative comments towards me.

Yes, I think that's one thing she likes about me. That I "get" her, I react to and am smart enough to keep up with her wit (usually), and at the same time accept and love her relatively unconditionally. I think, though, that she sometimes feels too subdued around me, so she leaves to find more stimulation elsewhere. But that's only the impressions I get. We haven't really talked about it.

In terms of "lifting moods" it's usually me who's doing the lifting, or attempting to. She can be pretty negative. My ways of improving mood don't always seem compatible with what she expects/needs, though, so I guess it's probably good that she doesn't try to stay with me all the time, that she finds other people to give her what she wants.