PoLR vs Creative Function

[XoX]

Ok..I'm confused now about what is creative function and what is PoLR.

It was claimed that if you mirror your environment's Fe but you are resistant to Te then this means you are Fe-creative and have Te-PoLR. I am like this. If someone is angry at me. I become angry at them. If someone is happy then I become happy. I mirror emotions. However if someone shoots Te at me I can resist it well and make my own mind about it. I thought this means I have Fe-PoLR i.e. that Fe is my place of LEAST RESISTANCE. I can't resist it well. At the same time Te is almost the place of MOST RESISTANCE and I cannot be affected through it unless I want to.

Then it was claimed that Te-creative and Fe-PoLR is the opposite of this. E.g. that INTps cannot be affected through emotions and they don't mirror them but they can be sort of "controlled" through Te. They can't resist Te from other people well but tend to easily agree with it.

So how can PoLR be called Place of Least Resistance if you are totally resistant there? And how can Creative function be called a strong function if you can be controlled through it without you being able to resist?

There is either a misunderstanding here of what is PoLR and creative function. Alternatively PoLR should be renamed to be Place of MOST Resistance and Creative function seen not really as a strong function at all but more like a weakness.

[meatburger]

I suppose this being resistant to it is like a protection mechanism. An INTp will shut down to Fe because they really dont like it and dont know how to respond to its use. They wouldn't really be resisting it with equal force they would just be using no force. Im not that scared of Ti i quite enjoy it if its not directed at me. If someone used it on me heavily i would just ignore it and push it away.

Hmm i dont know what you mean by an INTp getting controlled by Te? I suppose if someone uses Fi on me im more likely to consider their information and if they are right i will happily accept and go along with their point of view.

Perhaps resistance is not good terminology, it should be called Point of Great Weakness or something.

[Slacker]

If you are mirroring people's emotions, then Fe isn't a weak function for you. Mirroring people's emotions would be a strong use of Fe I'd think.

My husband has Fe PoLR and he upsets my ENFj dad because he *doesn't* mirror emotions - you can't tell what's going on inside of him. My dad wants to see people responding to what he says. But people with an Fe PoLR don't respond outwardly. They might be responding inside but they don't show it. That, to me, is what a Fe PoLR looks like. And that doesn't mean that Fe is weak per se, just that it's sensitive - like sometimes my husband will internally respond very strongly to surrounding emotions, but he'd sooner die than let anyone else see it. In Fe-hungry environments, he'll sit by himself, silent and uncomfortable. Sometimes it'll stress him out and he'll get a headache. His parents are ESFj/ISFp and my dad is ENFj so I've seen him in this situation pretty often.

I have a few INTp friends and they're the same - you can see the wheels turning as they internally respond to something but they don't actually show their emotions. Then they'll ask a question that'll clue me in to how they felt about whatever. But I can't tell just by looking at them how they're feeling.

[Slacker]

I can definitely see you having creative Fe based on your feelings about teamwork. That seemed very Fe to me. Your opinion doesn't bother me and it wouldn't bother me to be on a team with you, but that concept of teamwork isn't important to me. I'm more concerned about one-on-one relationships with people, so I'd be more concerned about letting people on my team individually know how well they did and trying to inspire them and help them see their individual talents, regardless of whether the team won or lost. That is creative Fi, for contrast and/or comparison.

My creative function is something I use consciously and is important to me, similarly to how your concept of "team" is important to you and is something you've thought through very consciously.

So I think that whole discussion points toward creative Fe.

[Expat]

If you are mirroring people's emotions, then Fe isn't a weak function for you. Mirroring people's emotions would be a strong use of Fe I'd think.

Yes.

My husband has Fe PoLR and he upsets my ENFj dad because he *doesn't* mirror emotions - you can't tell what's going on inside of him. My dad wants to see people responding to what he says. But people with an Fe PoLR don't respond outwardly. They might be responding inside but they don't show it. That, to me, is what a Fe PoLR looks like.

Yes.

I have a few INTp friends and they're the same - you can see the wheels turning as they internally respond to something but they don't actually show their emotions.

And yes.

If someone is angry at me. I become angry at them. If someone is happy then I become happy. I mirror emotions. However if someone shoots Te at me I can resist it well and make my own mind about it. I thought this means I have Fe-PoLR i.e. that Fe is my place of LEAST RESISTANCE. I can't resist it well. At the same time Te is almost the place of MOST RESISTANCE and I cannot be affected through it unless I want to.

And no.

[Expat]

I can definitely see you having creative Fe based on your feelings about teamwork. That seemed very Fe to me. Your opinion doesn't bother me and it wouldn't bother me to be on a team with you, but that concept of teamwork isn't important to me. I'm more concerned about one-on-one relationships with people, so I'd be more concerned about letting people on my team individually know how well they did and trying to inspire them and help them see their individual talents, regardless of whether the team won or lost. That is creative Fi, for contrast and/or comparison.

My creative function is something I use consciously and is important to me, similarly to how your concept of "team" is important to you and is something you've thought through very consciously.

So I think that whole discussion points toward creative Fe.

Perfect.

[XoX]

Hmm i dont know what you mean by an INTp getting controlled by Te? I suppose if someone uses Fi on me im more likely to consider their information and if they are right i will happily accept and go along with their point of view.

It is because of symmetry. If we assume that I am INFp like many do and it is now clear that my emotions can be controlled and manipulated without me being able to resist it then it follows that INTp's thoughts can be controlled and manipulated with Te without them being able to resist it.

However if I am not INFp but I am an INTp then it goes the other way around meaning that INTps emotions can be controlled and manipulated but not their thoughts.


So which is more true for ENFps...
a) External environment can control and manipulate your ethics without you being able to resist it (i.e. Fi opinion/conclusion can be forced on you to the point it becomes your own value)
b) External environment can control and manipulate your logics without you being able to resist it (i.e. Ti opinion/conclusion can be forced on you to the point it becomes your own logical conclusion)

If ENFps choose a) then I'm more likely INFp and if they choose b) then I'm more likely INTp.

Edit: This is a very important question for me personally so if ENFps can answer it according to their best understanding it would be helpful.

[Slacker]

Well Fe being an external kind of thing isn't really parallel to Fi and Ti, which are internalized functions. Why would an *external* environment have an impact on Fi or Ti at all? If I see I've hurt someone, then I will change how I talk to them and respond to them. If I hurt someone, I am unable to continue talking to them the same way. Fi responding to Fi. That's a better comparison I think.

[XoX]

Well Fe being an external kind of thing isn't really parallel to Fi and Ti, which are internalized functions. Why would an *external* environment have an impact on Fi or Ti at all? If I see I've hurt someone, then I will change how I talk to them and respond to them. If I hurt someone, I am unable to continue talking to them the same way. Fi responding to Fi. That's a better comparison I think.

That is not helpful really but ok I perhaps need to make another case which is more comparable like one for INTjs or ISFjs.

[Expat]

It is because of symmetry. If we assume that I am INFp like many do and it is now clear that my emotions can be controlled and manipulated without me being able to resist it then it follows that INTp's thoughts can be controlled and manipulated with Te without them being able to resist it.

No, what it means is that your internal feelings are overruled by external emotional atmosphere , and that for INTps their logical ideas or ideology are overruled by external information .

Also, IPs are introvert-irrationals, they "go-with-the-flow" which is precisely what you describe happening to you.

So which is more true for ENFps...
a) External environment can control and manipulate your ethics without you being able to resist it (i.e. Fi opinion/conclusion can be forced on you to the point it becomes your own value)
b) External environment can conrol and manipulate your logics without you being able to resist it (i.e. Ti opinion/conclusion can be forced on you to the point it becomes your own logical conclusion)

If ENFps choose a) then I'm more likely INFp and if they choose b) then I'm more likely INTp.

If you want to make this distinction, ENFps are > and > , so the same as INTps.

(a) is a not very good description of > -- "emotional state" is better wording than "ethics" here
(b) is a not very good description of > -- the "opinion" changes more easily according to external information

ENFps should identify more with (b) than with (a), and that doesn't make you INTp at all -- you're totally confused. ENFps are Te>Ti and Fi>Fe, same as INTps, not as INFps.

[XoX]

It is because of symmetry. If we assume that I am INFp like many do and it is now clear that my emotions can be controlled and manipulated without me being able to resist it then it follows that INTp's thoughts can be controlled and manipulated with Te without them being able to resist it.

No, what it means is that your internal feelings are overruled by external emotional atmosphere , and that for INTps their logical ideas or ideology are overruled by external information .

Also, IPs are introvert-irrationals, they "go-with-the-flow" which is precisely what you describe happening to you.

So which is more true for ENFps...
a) External environment can control and manipulate your ethics without you being able to resist it (i.e. Fi opinion/conclusion can be forced on you to the point it becomes your own value)
b) External environment can conrol and manipulate your logics without you being able to resist it (i.e. Ti opinion/conclusion can be forced on you to the point it becomes your own logical conclusion)

If ENFps choose a) then I'm more likely INFp and if they choose b) then I'm more likely INTp.

If you want to make this distinction, ENFps are > and > , so the same as INTps.

(a) is a not very good description of > -- "emotional state" is better wording than "ethics" here
(b) is a not very good description of > -- the "opinion" changes more easily according to external information

ENFps should identify more with (b) than with (a), and that doesn't make you INTp at all -- you're totally confused. ENFps are Te>Ti and Fi>Fe, same as INTps, not as INFps.

Yes ENFps are Te>Ti which is not really the point. The point is are they more vulnerable to external Fi or Ti effects. If someone claims that A is good and B is bad are they easily affected by this and adopt that. If someone claims certain logical structure is consistent or not are they easily convinced by this and unable to actively resist the conclusion. I'm not sure if my question perfectly compares what I want it to compare but whether ENFp is Te>Ti or not is not the point at all.

I guess I get no answer to this question. I may have to rephrase it if people don't understand the point.

[anndelise]

i answered it here: http://the16types.info/forums/viewto...=193717#193717

(edited to include a copy of my answer)

However if ENFps can answer this question which I made also in another thread it would be most helpful to me.

So which is more true for ENFps...
a) External environment can control and manipulate your ethics without you being able to resist it (i.e. Fi opinion/conclusion can be forced on you to the point it becomes your own value)
b) External environment can control and manipulate your logics without you being able to resist it (i.e. Ti opinion/conclusion can be forced on you to the point it becomes your own logical conclusion)

neither

Most of us seem to find it upsetting when we are demanded to use Ti.
Someone else can Ti something for us, but it pretty much goes in one ear and out the other and we wind up doing our own thing anyways...usually to the agitation of the Ti person. Half of the time, we can't understand their Ti information, but usually it's ignored because many variables were ignored by the Ti person, which we are aware of.

Most ENFps also tend to recognize that each individual has their own sense of ethics. We might not agree with someone else's sense of ethics, we might even argue with them, but when all is said and done, they have their right to their own beliefs, and we have a right to our own beliefs. An aspect of our sense of ethics might change if someone provided us with some good Te'd info, but neither someone else's Ti nor Fi is going to alter our own ethics.

Note: this is based on observations of myself and observations of other enfps I have interacted irl with.

[Slacker]

It's that it isn't relevant to ENFps. That's not how we work. Our creative function is introverted, not extraverted.

[XoX]

It's that it isn't relevant to ENFps. That's not how we work. Our creative function is introverted, not extraverted.

This may or may not affect it. I'm not capable of clearly evaluating whether this is relevant and your vulnerability to Fi and Ti can 't be tested in a similar way as INTp, INFp Te and Fe vulnerability can. You raise a reasonable concern there though.

[Expat]

Well Fe being an external kind of thing isn't really parallel to Fi and Ti, which are internalized functions. Why would an *external* environment have an impact on Fi or Ti at all?

Even Ti (or Fi) is not unchangeable. Your logical conclusions, your understanding of an idea, your ideology ("communism is the way of the future" etc) did not pop out of nowhere. They are also shaped, and formed, with external information. That is what I meant in my "bookshelf" and "laser beams" metaphors. Ti and Fi do change, also with external information. But if you have Te>Ti preference, Ti is "reconsidered" more promptly than if you have Ti>Te.

[aestrivex]

the very fact that you do not understand that PoLR is not necessarily synonymous to levels of resistance and do not really have an understanding of the importance of the terminology suggests poor Te.

[meatburger]

Yeah good thread Slacker made some great points my feelings towards teamwork aren't quite as strong as yours (which of course is not a bad thing either way)

Most ENFps also tend to recognize that each individual has their own sense of ethics. We might not agree with someone else's sense of ethics, we might even argue with them, but when all is said and done, they have their right to their own beliefs, and we have a right to our own beliefs. An aspect of our sense of ethics might change if someone provided us with some good Te'd info, but neither someone else's Ti nor Fi is going to alter our own ethics.

Yeah thats what i was trying to say. Im not really sure that i would get subordinated by Fi, its just i understand its use in others and can see where they are comming from. If they gave me Fi info i overlooked i may say "yeah perhaps im being too harsh" and realise i have lost my compassion. I do it willingly though, if it doesn't fit with my ideology i will resist with maximum force.

[Expat]

the very fact that you do not understand that PoLR is not necessarily synonymous to levels of resistance and do not really have an understanding of the importance of the terminology suggests poor Te.

Yes. Of course a Te type might simply not care about this stuff and so not bother about what a PoLR really means, but XoX very obviously does care.

This is how we get a feeling for someone's type, not by their self-perceptions especially when very obviously trying to prove that they might still be a particular type.