An enigmatic acquiantance

[eunice]

She used to be in the same school as me. I didn't know her very well back then, but we talked to each other more often nowadays.

-Quiet and friendly. A private person who has few close friends, but wishes that she has more friends. She feels indignant about having to make the first move most of the time and thinks that it got to do with her looks.

-Very conscious of her appearance and likes to ask people for assurance.

-Loves to daydream and imagine becoming friends with people whom she admires in school to maintain a sense of closeness.

-Average student who dislikes school, but nevertheless study all the way to college 'cos she sees it as part of her general education.

-Extremely bad in sports. She has very bad hand-eye coordination skills and suck at ball games. As a result, she felt insecure during Physical Education classes and worry that how she will be judged. Like me, she couldn't draw too.

-She doesn't like to talk on the phone and prefers communicating through msn. She said that she is better organizing her sentences if she writes them down rather than presenting them verbally.

-She likes to write alot and is a relatively good writer. However, she usually doesn't do well in subjects like English Language or Literature.

-Her favorite quote and philosophy in life: "who am I to judge someone if I am not perfect myself?" (this has become my favorite quote too b'cos of her. )

-Whenever I complained about someone who is unfriendly to me, she would always say: "maybe he's just in a bad mood. I don't think he meant it personally."

-Used to be a victim of two ESTp and one ENTp bullies, who enjoyed talking behind her back and making subtle mocking remarks whenever she answered a question in class. She just brushed the remarks off for a long time, and the three EXTps decided to go a level higher by spreading malicious rumors about her. It went on for quite a while, until she couldn't take it anymore and had an emotional outburst in class while the teacher was teaching. She cried and approached the EXTps and just told them off right infront of everybody, and ran out of the class after saying what's on her mind.

-When I asked her why she didn't simply confront them in the first place and nip it at the bud before the matter got worst, she said that she had believed that they were mature enough to stop the unkind remarks and no matter what they said about her, she believed that they still treat her as a fellow classmate and will not do anything more cruel to subject her to distress.

-Despite her nice personality, she hasn't gone for any dates before and she is very bothered by it. She complained about how it reflects very badly on her and how others would think that she has a bad personality. She commented that she felt like a dork and thought that if she lacks dating experience, she will not know exactly what type of guy she likes. She feels that the main goal in life is to be loved by people. She even said that having no date is analogous to having no one liking or appreciating you, and it in turn makes life meaningless. I advised her that instead of waiting for a guy to ask her out, maybe she can try asking him out instead. She replied that it is pointless 'cos it makes her look desperate and she feels good about been approached.

-When she feels that someone has a bad first impression of her, she will avoid the person. To her, the first impression influences everything that has to come. No point wasting your time trying hard to make a good impression after that. As such, she became avoidant in anything she *thinks* will turn out bad. To her, trying to experience something that might turn out bad is like going to a singing competition unprepared.

-She told me before that it is important to visualize the worst case scenario 'cos things will not turn out as bad as what we thought.

I guess that's all for now. I have thought of her as IXFx, probably ISFp, INFp or INFj.

[Expat]

INFp.

[1981slater]

It sounds INFp to me but...how can an ENTp be a bully? Please explain

[eunice]

(On a side note, I shall learn to write more concise summaries in future so that more people can reply. )

@ Expat: I'm interested to know what makes you think that she's an INFp.

What had made me thought that she was an INFj was probably her relationship with the three EXTps. I find it hard to visualize her to be a bully victim of her duals (perhaps Aggressor-Victim relations gone bad? ). I'd have thought that they are more likely conflictors as the EXTps seem to find fault in her to make fun about. She also appeared to adopt an avoidant approach to problems and she seems hopeful about the goodness of mankind (eg. believing the EXTps will stop their nonsense because she feels that they still have a conscience, rather than just resigning to the fact that they are mean and nasty people), similar to what I have observed in INFjs

Her favorite quote and philosophy in life: "who am I to judge someone if I am not perfect myself?" (this has become my favorite quote too b'cos of her. )

I'd have expected someone with a dominant to live by this philosophy (at least I do).

That's just my POV. I welcome any opinions.

how can an ENTp be a bully? Please explain

He did it in a more indirect way as compared to the ESTps. He avoided all communications with her even to the extent of ignoring her whenever she talked to him even though they were group members for a school project once. He would also make fun of her behind her back by sharing (embellished) anecdotes about the "embarrassing" things she had done. From what I remember, she didn't do anything that offended him. One of the ESTps had picked on her because he didn't like her (for no apparent reason) and been a good friend, the ENTp decided to join in the "fun" of making her life miserable.

Talking about school bullies, they seem to be, no offense here, usually ESTps and ENTjs (probably due to their HA). Just a little digression here.

[tcaudilllg]

She feels that the main goal in life is to be loved by people.

This is an agenda of some sort, either hidden or actualizing. (master estimative or slave estimative)

INFp... I really don't see it. What INFp would be picked on like that by two ESTps and an ENTp?

[aestrivex]

the description is incredibly IEI.

[tcaudilllg]

I'm skeptical. I haven't seen anything in that description to suggest hidden agenda.

[Mea]

Doesn't sound very IEI to me. Dunno. The INFps I know would react differently when being bullied.

how can an ENTp be a bully? Please explain

He did it in a more indirect way as compared to the ESTps. He avoided all communications with her even to the extent of ignoring her whenever she talked to him even though they were group members for a school project once. He would also make fun of her behind her back by sharing (embellished) anecdotes about the "embarrassing" things she had done. From what I remember, she didn't do anything that offended him. One of the ESTps had picked on her because he didn't like her (for no apparent reason) and been a good friend, the ENTp decided to join in the "fun" of making her life miserable.

Talking about school bullies, they seem to be, no offense here, usually ESTps and ENTjs (probably due to their HA). Just a little digression here.

Firstly, why can't ENTp be bullies.. Any type has a possibility of appearing as a bully to someone else.
The school bullies I know are mostly ESTps, ENFjs, ESFjs.

[Ms. Kensington]

actually before i read the responses i thought INFj. The only part that was weird was the thinking you have to be loved or something. Everything else seems like it could match an INFj. Oh, and being good at writing but not doing well in school, that sounds infp.

[Typeless Wonder]

Does anything rule out her being an INTp? Her insecurity regarding dealing with people and feeling like life is meaningless without having an object of affection seems like it could be an INTp hidden agenda. Since INTps mostly use Ni, I wouldn't be surprised if some INTps are better at artistic tasks like writing than purely technical ones.

[uninspired]

Every single characteristic you described SCREAMS INFP. In fact, I've never seen an INFP description as accurate and penetrating as yours (this girl must be my twin!). She does seem a bit on the unhealthy side, though, and I think this is directly related to her lack of close friends and inability to fit in socially. INFps chief focus in life is other people - we crave emotional closeness, love, and friendship above all else, and feel incomplete without any. Nearly everything I do is directed toward connecting with others, from the way I dress, to my personal interests, to my studies in school (psychology, counseling). I believe this is directly related to , which is an intense desire for human contact.
*end emo-ness*

I'm skeptical. I haven't seen anything in that description to suggest Introverted Thinking hidden agenda.

I think you overestimate the significance of the hidden agenda. It's more like your shadow, which, though important and influential, isn't nearly as important as your reflection (ego block), which shows who you really are. On second thought, I think the ego block is more akin to an x-ray or MRI - it shows who you really are inside. But I don't really know, my similes kind of suck.
In essence, while the pursuit of knowledge and understanding () is very important to me, it pales in comparison to finding and building personal relationships ().

Does anything rule out her being an INTp? Her insecurity regarding dealing with people and feeling like life is meaningless without having an object of affection seems like it could be an INTp hidden agenda

Realistically speaking, many INTps I know, while they love their friends, are not nearly as people-oriented as INFps. They're not as concerned with pleasing others, not as desirous of affection, and not as inclined to wax poetic about love (they keep it to themselves). While INFps focus more on emotions, romance, aesthetics, and ethics, INTps focus more (correct me if I'm wrong) on impersonal ideas, the sciences, mathematics, systems of all kinds (logic, grammar, programming, etc.) and everything intellectual, abstract, and bizarre (though INFps are fond of the latter three as well). In other words, INFp's serves , whereas INTp's serves . This is not to say that INFps can't be drawn to the intellectual or the impersonal (many are philosophy and science majors), or that INTps can't be drawn to the emotional, but there's a distinct preference for one or the other that separates the two.

INFp... I really don't see it. What INFp would be picked on like that by two ESTps and an ENTp?

It sounds INFp to me but...how can an ENTp be a bully? Please explain.

Regarding the ESTp and ENTp bullies, I can identify well. I once had a bad relationship with an ENTp and after it ended he used every opportunity he could to berate and embarrass me in public in his crafty ENTp way (though it didn't really bother me too much, which made him even angrier). He liked to provoke others to get them to react to him and give him the attention he craved.
And just because ESTp is my "dual" doesn't mean that I get along with every ESTp I meet. Frankly, if it weren't for socionics, I likely would have written off 90% of the ESTps I'd ever met as superficial, arrogant jerks (and I'm NOT INFj - my dealings with ESTjs are infinitely worse). Intertype relations aren't gospel, after all.

Doesn't sound very IEI to me. Dunno. The INFps I know would react differently when being bullied.

As for storming out of the room, INFps will react very strongly if they feel they are being mistreated or taken advantage of, because beneath their quiet exterior is a very fiery and passionate creature with a strong sense of justice and self-respect. Though INFps will allow themselves to be pushed around to maintain peace, they will deeply resent it and won't tolerate it for long.

She feels that the main goal in life is to be loved by people.

Grr, so frustratingly true.

So, in summation, I'm nearly 100% sure she's INFp. If you still don't believe me, just read one of the INFp online descriptions and stop trying to read between the lines. We're considered feelers for a reason.

[eunice]

Thanks for the detailed post, uninspired.

About the issue of ESTp-INFp duality, besides perceived physical attractiveness, I wonder what makes ESTp and INFp become attracted to each other in the first place? Most ESTps seem to have received a lot of bad rep and the INFps I have known IRL usually don't fancy them (unless they have a really good character). Moreover, since ESTps are attention-seekers who like to look impressive, I assume that they are more likely to choose partners who are very impressive so that they can boast infront of everyone else. At least that's what I noticed among the ESTps I have known IRL. They tend to choose ESTps, ESFps, ESFjs, ISFps, ENFjs as partners (basically the conventional ideal girls). Taking my friend's descriptions for instance, I don't see what an ESTp can gain from a relationship with an INFp (I'm definitely not belittling her here. I'm trying to say that there are more compatible choices out). Therefore, I feel that an ESTp-INFp relationship would need a lot of effort for the INFp to slowly see the goodness in ESTp (that is, besides their athletic appearance), and the ESTp is willing to like an INFp for who she is rather than comparing her with others to seek attention and feel more "powerful".

[FDG]

I assume that they are more likely to choose partners who are very impressive so that they can boast infront of everyone else. At least that's what I noticed among the ESTps I have known IRL. .

Nononononn never never ever. I am sooo turned off by girls with lots of makeup and gross appearance. I like more the simpler ones. In fact it has happened in the past that say I started to date a girl, then she started to take care of her appearance more, and I'd be turned off. This applies to many many ESTps. I see often the couple estp and infp "alternative" girl. I think you are looking in the wrong direction because for example I am a regular attender of clubs but I generally dislike club girls f.e.

In any case, many INFp girls I know actually are...very very good looking.

[uninspired]

Thanks for the detailed post, uninspired.

You're welcome .

Nononononn never never ever. I am sooo turned off by girls with lots of makeup and gross appearance. I like more the simpler ones. In fact it has happened in the past that say I started to date a girl, then she started to take care of her appearance more, and I'd be turned off. This applies to many many ESTps

*hugs FDG*
Though I'm encouraged by your appreciation of beauty in its most natural form (no pun intended), I just don't see the same appreciation among your fellow ESTps. It seems that if you don't look like a porn star, or aren't popular and outgoing, you don't exist to them.
And while I'm flattered that you claim INFps are very attractive, most of us look very ordinary. Have you ever been to typetango.com? Most INFps on that website don't look anything like the pretty princesses that some have described them to be. In fact, typetango dispels a lot of the hype surrounding "VI," but that's a whole different story. Perhaps you pay attention only to the attractive INFps and not the less attractive ones, but I can't blame you for that, because I like to look at good-looking people as well.
In general, I like ESTps and get along very well with them once I get their attention, but keeping them around is a challenge. I've only known a few in my lifetime, and they tend to leave as quickly as they arrive .

[FDG]

Thanks for the detailed post, uninspired.

You're welcome .

Nononononn never never ever. I am sooo turned off by girls with lots of makeup and gross appearance. I like more the simpler ones. In fact it has happened in the past that say I started to date a girl, then she started to take care of her appearance more, and I'd be turned off. This applies to many many ESTps

*hugs FDG*
Though I'm encouraged by your appreciation of beauty in its most natural form (no pun intended), I just don't see the same appreciation among your fellow ESTps. It seems that if you don't look like a porn star, or aren't popular and outgoing, you don't exist to them.
And while I'm flattered that you claim INFps are very attractive, most of us look very ordinary. Have you ever been to typetango.com? Most INFps on that website don't look anything like the pretty princesses that some have described them to be. In fact, typetango dispels a lot of the hype surrounding "VI," but that's a whole different story. Perhaps you pay attention only to the attractive INFps and not the less attractive ones, but I can't blame you for that, because I like to look at good-looking people as well.
In general, I like ESTps and get along very well with them once I get their attention, but keeping them around is a challenge. I've only known a few in my lifetime, and they tend to leave as quickly as they arrive .

1)I can be attracted to both attractive and average-looking girls provided that they have something in them I like. I am now thinking about the girlfriend of some ESTp friends; some are like you say, some others only date ALT girls..there's a lot of variation.
2)I find extremley hard to hold INFps too. Either I come across as too closed or as too forward and in both cases they'll be fleeing. Also they tend to be very social and I'm like, how could they give a shit about me with all the friends they have?. Anyway to make an example many times the kind of girl i'm attracted to is similar to raisonpure

[misutii]

-Quiet and friendly. A private person who has few close friends, but wishes that she has more friends. She feels indignant about having to make the first move most of the time and thinks that it got to do with her looks.

-Very conscious of her appearance and likes to ask people for assurance.

-Loves to daydream and imagine becoming friends with people whom she admires in school to maintain a sense of closeness.

-Average student who dislikes school, but nevertheless study all the way to college 'cos she sees it as part of her general education.

-She doesn't like to talk on the phone and prefers communicating through msn. She said that she is better organizing her sentences if she writes them down rather than presenting them verbally.

-She likes to write alot and is a relatively good writer. However, she usually doesn't do well in subjects like English Language or Literature.

-When she feels that someone has a bad first impression of her, she will avoid the person. To her, the first impression influences everything that has to come. No point wasting your time trying hard to make a good impression after that. As such, she became avoidant in anything she *thinks* will turn out bad. To her, trying to experience something that might turn out bad is like going to a singing competition unprepared.

-She told me before that it is important to visualize the worst case scenario 'cos things will not turn out as bad as what we thought.

I very strongly relate to all those points and I'm a male INFp, so I'm going to claim INFp too. I have an INFj friend and I think she'd remark similar characteristics/quirks about me whereas I don't think they'd so much apply to her. For example, she's very perfectionistic, especially in school. I'm an average student cause I do the bare minimum to get by, I like leisure time. To her the bare minimum is an A average, anything below that is failure.

Also in high school I think it might be more common for ESTps to pick on INFps than most would think. However, one should be careful before judging these situations as "malicious" in nature. For example, I worked with one guy I remember who would tease me about my weird habits and at first I interpreted it as insults on my personal character. However, then one day I remember some other person was giving me trouble and the ESTp came up to me and directly asked me if I wanted him to kick that guy's ass. From that moment on I saw the whole time he was just teasing me in a friendly manner to find out more about me or something but he also thought highly enough of me that he would look out for me if someone was to fuck with me. Thus maybe the ESTp that was teasing that girl just wanted some attention? He probably didn't realize he was hurting her and probably felt quite hurt himself when she exploded (I'm quite self-absorbed, paranoid, in many situations myself)

[eunice]

I can also strongly relate to a lot of points regarding my friend, prolly b'cos I'm an mbti INFP. I also feel that the situation she had with the three EXTps did not start out with malicious intent, just that the EXTps were too insensitive to realize that they have gone overboard sometimes. Moreover, been a highly sensitive person, my INFp friend didn't take it well. If they had been conflictors i.e. ESTp-INFj, I would have expected them to avoid each other or have little interaction since they had nothing in common to begin with.