Illusionary/Mirage Relations: Stories and Experiences

[Expat]

"I'm not aroused right now and i don't want to let myself be aroused" - i never understood this. From her point of view - she wanted me to be confident and to not be needy - when I felt starved of affection she could see it and it would make it impossible for her to feel affectionate. A downward spiral of mutual dissatisfaction.

Just consider how an ESTp would have reacted.

[Blaze]

"I'm not aroused right now and i don't want to let myself be aroused" - i never understood this. From her point of view - she wanted me to be confident and to not be needy - when I felt starved of affection she could see it and it would make it impossible for her to feel affectionate. A downward spiral of mutual dissatisfaction.

Just consider how an ESTp would have reacted.

estp would have, er, moved forward, one way or another....lol

[Khamelion]

... Have in common? I'm not sure what that follow up question means..

What qualities about your ENTp partner do you think you have in common?

We both seem to think we are more right than the other at times.

We like to do a lot of the same things, we have similar taste in other people.

I suppose we both have a "be proactive so we can relax" attitude.



@diamond8- the sexy kind

and whats with all the deleted posts from j00?

[Megan]

I created this topic so that we can share our experiences with illusionary relationships and in response to blaze in another thread which I did not want to take off topic

I too have seen relations of supervision work better than predicted, even with ISFj/ESTp.
I should start a topic on illusionary relations. What I have seen of them is gradually leading me to think they are silently destructive especially in the way of personal ambition.

i have actually noticed this, too. i hope you start this topic as i've observed about the same thing. in this way, i sort of think they are some of the worst relations around.

wow. i totally disagree. i'm in an illusionary relationship right now and it is going pretty well. but yeah start a topic.

@blaze
I find it kind of hard to exactly explain what I have observed with these relations especially the ones that have been going on for quite a while and particulary one between an ISTj and an ENTj that I have observed quite closely but will not discuss in this post.
In illusionary relations, the parties seem relaxed almost to the point of being "asleep" around each other a lot of times and no matter how hard they try to assist each other with outside goals it is like the assistance doesn't go very far. I think in illusionary relations it can seem like the people struggle to be really ambitious about things outside the relationship and even about the relationship itself. It is not that their outward ambition dies after a while, it is more like there is a struggle to keep it alive and move towards their goals. They both want to move forward with their goals but they are somewhat stuck and just can't really move effectively... especially the valuing person when involved with a none valuing person. In simple terms, outside provides a kind of strong drive or movement for the people in whom it is weak yet valued. In the same people, provides something more like a feeling of stagnation, retreat, decline etc eventually.

[Megan]

I have not closely observed any illusionary relationship between an INFp and ENTp like the one you are in, perhaps the sort of relaxed go with the flow nature of some INFps and the values of ENFps may make them have a different quality to say one where two valuing types are involved. I suspect that even though an INFp may enjoy the relaxed nature that illusionary relations can have, they really do need strong to really get them moving which is actually what they deeply need rather than something that resembles type relaxation which they really like. Illusionary relations seem to be not bad for certain types of friendships though and in general the illusionary relationships that I have observed have been going on for a long time despite the under current of vague dissatisfaction and gradual decline in the ambition/growth of the people involved. People in illusionary relations regardless of the types involved to me always seem mentally and psychically frozen(illusionary relations are not usually as obviously antagonistic, tiring and aggravating as some other relations and the parties usually truly admire aspects of each other, 2nd function related) their dreams and progress are passing them by while they are in a half unaware immobilized "relax" state depending on the types involved. They give me the impression of being destructive to the partners in a stealthy way which is not really easy for them to perceive or fight against though in ISXj/ENXj ones, the parties are often more critical of each other and more overt with their expectations.

If the illusionary relationship is working for you then that is indeed great. If you are happy and satisfied with it then perhaps that is all that truly matters. I think you mentioned somewhere about once being in an illusionary relationship with an overly relaxed weeding smoking INFp?

[Blaze]

yes i've had 2 illusionary relationships. the first one the infp was a weed smoker....i ended it after 3 years mostly due to his lack of desire to get involved in my recovery or to do anything about smoking weed. it is really hard for me to analyze this relationship from a socionic perspective though since i was an active alcoholic through out most of it, complete with the worst behavior that an entp demonstrates and he was lazy lazy lazy. but we still achieved goals...got our own apartments and got our careers launched after college. he responded well to Ti logic and i to Fe. i think he really wanted to stay friends but the new man, estp, who i eventually married, would not have that, soooo.....

i'd have to say that a big part of the attraction to estp though was that his energy level was more similar to mine. and we did achieve a lot of things together. constantly were working on external goals. in fact, that's pretty much the whole relationship. i can see why they call this relation business because we could get a lot done together. rick's description of extravert-extravert relationships fits to a T for my marriage.

with the current infp man, his energy is lower, but he gets stuff done. right now we do not live together, so we are on a track of doing our own individual work....mine is mostly "inside" work right now, my feelings, my inner life etc. his work is mostly "outside work" taking care of outside responsibilities and goals. we are both motivated to become stronger so we can bring more to the relationship and to life. i do not know if we will make a permanent commitment or not, since i want to get more time away from my divorce before i make up my mind.

but at our age it's different. our careers are well established and we have a lot to bring forward from our married lives, materially and as far as relationships with people. so we don't have to do as much "building" although there is some building to do, saving and such. mostly it's planning for retirement and getting older.

the other thing i've noticed is that we've both developed our dual seeking functions pretty well. this causes me to wonder how much i need it from others. i've concluded that the only time i really need it is when i'm highly irritated and stressed out, usually with some Fi related fuck up of my own. but now i know this and i can directly ask for assistance. for him, good logic and persuasion seems to do the trick most times. he knows what he needs to do to get going.

but i do see your points about Se dual seeking....i think people who seek this really need this to activate from time to time, so the infp in this case would be more dissatisfied than the entp, since just being around an IP is pretty relaxing even if they don't have Si in the ego block. there is a gender angle to this, also, in that most women have to do the Si thing to some extent. for myself there has never been anyone in my life giving me the Si. my mother had it as a creative function, but what with an infj, entp, enfp, and intj in our family, there simply wasn't enough to go around. so my point is that i am a pretty independent person, not very "infantile" at all.

but then again, i lived with my estp for 15 years, so i sort of think that his Se rubbed off on me.

then again, this whole post could be completely self serving, so what do i know? i'd like to hear from other people about illusionary relations, too.

[discojoe]

I find ENFjs attractive from a distance, mainly because they tend to be very perceptive, which I find extremely appealing. Likewise, they always seem attracted to me because of my assertiveness and quiet confidence. Upon closer inspection, however, ENFjs simply drain my energy and always seem to want something I can't give them.

This is not to say it can't work, as my experiences have all been the bad examples of this relation, but if you want to really stimulate each other you better start learning your role function.

[FDG]

I feel like ISTjs are expecting something from me. I don't know what. They want me to chat a lot? I don't have a clue. But they kind of "like" me in a way I sometimes can find creepy (the males). It's okay if the females like me, I enjoy the attention.

In any case with my father the Te Ti difference is obvious. Whenever we are doing something practical, he asks me many times "why" "why" "why" in order to form a system in his head. Whereas I personally know the workings of objects, but I don't necessarily know the reason as to why they work that way, nor I am willing to go find them. We complement each other on typical Ni-Se things, though. Also being double emotion-creating doesn't work well: I rather prefer to be the one doing most of the talking and the silly one, and given that he has the same preference, we end up not exchanging ever any relevant information

[implied]

@blaze
I find it kind of hard to exactly explain what I have observed with these relations especially the ones that have been going on for quite a while and particulary one between an ISTj and an ENTj that I have observed quite closely but will not discuss in this post.
In illusionary relations, the parties seem relaxed almost to the point of being "asleep" around each other a lot of times and no matter how hard they try to assist each other with outside goals it is like the assistance doesn't go very far. I think in illusionary relations it can seem like the people struggle to be really ambitious about things outside the relationship and even about the relationship itself. It is not that their outward ambition dies after a while, it is more like there is a struggle to keep it alive and move towards their goals. They both want to move forward with their goals but they are somewhat stuck and just can't really move effectively... especially the valuing person when involved with a none valuing person. In simple terms, outside provides a kind of strong drive or movement for the people in whom it is weak yet valued. In the same people, provides something more like a feeling of stagnation, retreat, decline etc eventually.

megan, my observations are nearly identical to yours. i've witnessed this with an ENTp/INFp couple. although what i've witnessed is nothing like blaze has described, there seems to be a real slowdown in terms of what the couple actually gets done. it seems as if it's too relaxing for both of them, so from my pov both of them have sort of "stalled" and gone backwards in terms of growth, goals, etc, during the relationship.

[Ms. Kensington]

it probably depends on the pair, but in my experience a semi dual relation is more energizing than an illusionary one. I do feel comfortable with ESTjs but just feel no interest in what they are interested in.. if i find things they do interesting it's not usually why the ESTjs are doing these things. It's what I've added myself.. in any case there is a feeling of disconnect that makes you feel like that partner is just dead weight.

[FDG]

Although I don't get why people think a relationship is going well only when both people are striving towards more and more external goals. Maybe they just prefer to relax at that point in the lives? What would the problem be? Not everybody puts success as a priority. Luckily.

[Blaze]

Although I don't get why people think a relationship is going well only when both people are striving towards more and more external goals. Maybe they just prefer to relax at that point in the lives? What would the problem be? Not everybody puts success as a priority. Luckily.

exactly. the outside stuff isn't everything although it is important when you are trying to get your career going and have children and buy a home and such. case in point is the lookalike relation, where extraverts especially focus on the outside stuff at the expense of the internal health and connectedness of the relationship. the older i get the more i see the outside stuff, while important, is definitely not everything. you need a good relaxed supportive internal balance also. all that striving for material and external goals gets tiring...and for what? so you can keep up with the joneses in your community? just being happy and chillin like an older couple sitting on a porch is where it's really at. which is part of what people may be seeing in illusionary relationships they are observing but not in.

it's also hard to know what is really going on in someone else's relationship, too, unless you live with them (like your parents). even if one partner in the couple tells you, you're still only getting half the story.

i'd like to hear more from people who have been in illusionary relationships, not just observed them.

[FDG]

you need a good relaxed supportive internal balance also. all that striving for material and external goals gets tiring...and for what? so you can keep up with the joneses in your community? just being happy and chillin like an older couple sitting on a porch is where it's really at. which is part of what people may be seeing in illusionary relationships they are observing but not in.

I always see couples that are together when they're old as being more happy than when they're in their 30s striving to get up the social ladder. Economists and social scientists tested multiple times happiness over lifespan and the conclusion was always that it's V shaped with an minimum at around 40, and peaks in childhood and as elders.

Of course a balance is better since you're not able to enjoy the calmness if you haven't gone through rougher periods. But yeah, measuring happiness only over external sources is clearly stupid. This said, duality should allow for presence of both things together (the ability to accomplish external goals as well as moments of relaxation).

[Creepy-female]

.

[munenori2]

It's probably not very helpful, but ESFj's always make me feel like I'm being hosted/taken care off. They seem to cater to my needs. However, my experience is just with relations of mine, so in the naturally limited contact I've had, it's really just seemed like awesome times (i.e. playing board games, guitar hero, telling/listening to jokes, eating fantastic meals, etc).

Other than that, I agree that it seems like we speak the same language...it's just our focuses feel just slightly askew.

[Blaze]

i have now had two illusionary relationships. the first one was when i was about 24 years old and the other is now. the first one fits the description of illusionary pretty well. the one i'm in now seems closer to being a duality relation but not quite, but 100% better than the first illusionary. i have to go to work though so i'll comment more later.

[FDG]

Good relationship for friendships. No problem at all when being one-on-one, but me and ISTjs are attracted to very different social groups.

[Blaze]

interesting. the wikipedia is wrong since with illusionary your dual seeking is the other person's role function; it's not in their id block. and actually this fits perfectly....each partner's dual seeking is not quite adequately met by the other person, but it's not like it's not there at all or anything.

i'm still not 100% on whether i am an ILE or an SLE or what. like i could be an ILE and i've developed Se/Si really well from being with my ex for so long or i could be an SLE who was raised in an Ne valuing family so i developed Ne more. i'm really not sure but the main thing is that i do have a pretty forceful personality and i also have a very active Ne imagination so i kind of think i'm strongest in Ti and i kind of straddle the fence between Se and Ne. and i feel comfortable with and attracted to both alphas and betas.

ok so first possible illusionary relation:
i was incredibly drawn to this guy he just touched me somehow. we had great sex. and had a pretty good similar rhythm of life but just to give an example, the thing that ESTP is complaining about in her thread is what i would have complained about when i was 24, very push pull and a lack of certainty. he was pretty lazy and would be very flaky about making plans and getting together. this made me feel very insecure in the relationship. but the problem was actually also external...yet related to our personalities. he was a weed smoker and i was an active alcoholic at the time. knowing what i know today i would say that his weed smoking was kind of related to his HA/Ti - it made him feel creative and like he understood things better or something. plus it made him even more lazy than he already was Ni style. my drinking was a direct connection to my HA/Fe -the need to be kind of emotionally free, reduce anxiety, and undo the negative consequences of Fi polr. but anyway, then i got clean and he would not get clean nor would he take my recovery from alcohol seriously or get involved in it. but all this was further complicated by the fact that he was definitely not ready to make a commitment to marriage or even moving in together. i honestly don't think i was either, so we were kinda like, boyfriend and girlfriend and we would help each other out and hang out but we were not meeting one another's needs very well. not that we really understood what our needs were or anything. it was very hard to break up with him but i eventually did because he couldn't break up. but most of my dissatisfaction with this relationship was with his flakiness and laziness. i think he'd get ticked off by me trying to push for a better status of relationship. but this behavior of mine had to do with my insecurity with myself not really him. but anyway the thing that totally trumps socionics in the relationship is the substance abuse, it kind of covered everything else. if it were not for that, i bet we would have done fine together. we were together about 3 years.

at this point i met my SLE ex, who at the time very much looked and acted much more emotional and introverted than he really was, but who at the same time had tons of drive, motivation, and energy. but anyway, my ex was also in recovery, and we totally bonded and fell head over heels immediately. his energy was like a tonic; it matched mine. we'd do do do stuff together. rarely would disagree about what to do and we would both try anything. it was so great after the laziness of the first IEI. we moved in together really fast too (big mistake).

ok so second possible illusionary relationship with infpman is totally different i think for a few different reasons. first, no substance abuse. second, we're in our 40's and we both have developed our weaker functions pretty well. third, both have a failed marriage which makes us highly motivated to practice good relationship skills and not make stupid mistakes again. fourth we ask for what we need directly. we know how to manage each other. and we have a great mutual spiritual commitment. over the last year, we've been running a series of gauntlets together. they involved whether to see other people, how much time to spend together, how we expected to be treated, what was acceptable or unacceptable behavior in the relationship, who is in charge of what, how we will resolve disagreements. a lot of times we were not sure we would get through these things. the relationship seemed at intervals to be on the brink of not working. but yet every single time we evolved to a higher level and figured out that we wanted the same things and were able to resolve stuff. he would typically withdraw at these times and i would typically become more forceful. and we would both be right. and now we are feeling incredibly close and deep.

at times i want a little bit more demonstration of caring and concern from him...but he usually responds if i ask. at time he wants a little bit more space to himself....if he asks, i usually let him have it. and it's like ok.

but anyway i am not an infp or anything but i have had relationships with them so i figure i can post. sorry for the super long post hopefully it's not too overwhelming.

[zenbrat]

I think the dual-seeking and HA functions really need to be satisfied in tandem. Getting your HA satisfied but not your dual-seeking function is a bit like drinking salt water - it wets your tongue but doesn't satisfy your thirst.

ILE needs SiFe. SLE needs NiFe. Neither type's thirst is completely quenched with Fe alone.

Everytime I talk to my ENTp, he communicates one or more physical ailments/concerns and sorta prompts for me to comfort him. I thoroughly suck at comforting physical concerns - I invariably respond with "you will be fine" (period, next topic). He needs immediate (xSxx) satisfaction of an immediate sensory concern, which I as an xNxx cannot provide.

Si(Fe) dominant types would be much better at responding to what ILE is prompting for:

The avoidance of discomfort is one of the primary motivations of these types [Si dominant]. Feelings of internal discomfort can arise from a tense psychological atmosphere, working too hard and sapping the body's resources, being pressured by other people or by numerous "things to do," and from unsatiated or oversatiated physical needs. These types tend to quickly recognize and be quite vocal about discomfort that arises and either take clever measures to dissipate it or simply get out of whatever is bothering them. They are very receptive to other people sharing feelings of discomfort with them and can help alleviate the tension and offer good solutions. Wikisocion

On the other hand, my ESTp's always communicate concerns related to the outcomes of current events/projects. They are looking for NiFe, i.e. "everything will be fine because of this, this and this...". They get irritated with SiFe's who start physically comforting (petting) and constantly asking "How how do you feel? Are you feeling, ok? Did this bother you? What's wrong? What do you need to feel better?" This line of questioning is really uncomfortable for SLE, so they stop communicating their concerns and sort of close off from the SiFe over time.

[Ms. Kensington]

yeah i think i read somewhere that it's harder for sensing types to survive some relations than for intuitive types

[Blaze]

Everytime I talk to my ENTp, he communicates one or more physical ailments/concerns and sorta prompts for me to comfort him. I thoroughly suck at comforting physical concerns - I invariably respond with "you will be fine" (period, next topic). He needs immediate (xSxx) satisfaction of an immediate sensory concern, which I as an xNxx cannot provide.

i know this is side bar to the topic, but fwiw i never do this.

On the other hand, my ESTp's always communicate concerns related to the outcomes of current events/projects. They are looking for NiFe, i.e. "everything will be fine because of this, this and this...".

i do this also.

but i don't get irritated when somebody asks me how i'm feeling or what i need.

[zenbrat]

but i don't get irritated when somebody asks me how i'm feeling or what i need.

Some ISFp's can get a little hover-y and smothering with it. Especially Enneagram 9 ISFp's. They are extremely uncomfortable around people in low spirits and will stay on them til it's "all better".

From you I get a very grounded presence, with lots of practical wisdom (which probably taps into my Se and Ti needs), so I always enjoy reading your posts. Do you ever test around 50/50 on S and N?

[cracka]

zenbrat avatar = hot.

[Blaze]

Some ISFp's can get a little hover-y and smothering with it. Especially Enneagram 9 ISFp's. They are extremely uncomfortable around people in low spirits and will stay on them til it's "all better".

From you I get a very grounded presence, with lots of practical wisdom (which probably taps into my Se and Ti needs), so I always enjoy reading your posts. Do you ever test around 50/50 on S and N?

ah thanks i do so enjoy reading yours also it seems you're always on to something! you always seem to be posting something that gets me wanting to discuss and analyze or something. you've got good theories and observations, and you catch dynamics really well.

well i don't usually test as SLE but sometimes those tests are not great ways of diagnosing type. but i am up in the air about my type and am considering an alternative theory for how the types express themselves over time, over the lifespan.

it's something like you become more balanced as you age and as you get around a long term partner over time. your long term partner influences you quite a bit and you learn from them. i think this happens in a different way when your partner is NOT your dual. you change a lot being around a nondual or something. like i have pretty good Se for an ILE, if i am an ILE. also i don't really seek Si but i do enjoy it, but at this point i've lived so long without it that i've kind of learned how to fulfill these needs in other ways.

it's almost like i've learned that Ne really bugs a lot of people when it's used indiscriminately and i've learned how important it is to pay attention to power dynamics, facts, details, people's needs and desires, practical application vs theory, and to toughen up because life is tough. so i really do feel like i balance between Ne and Se, even though in the past, like 15-20 years ago, Ne came more effortlessly to me. these days, i try to use Ne more consciously and diligently than in the past.

you know we talk a lot on this forum about duality as the be-all end-all. it's not always practical to find your dual. i think it can come a little bit more easily when you are young esp if you know about the theory, since there are a lot more fish in the sea at that point and your life isn't very complicated yet. then again, when you are young, you might not know yourself that well yet and you might misdiagnose your type. but life has a way of teaching you about who you are....marriage will do that to ya....and so will a career. sometimes these lessons are sure a pain in the ass.

as you age, there are all kinds of other complications and considerations in picking a partner. do my kids like him? do his kids like me? can we talk? do we live close enough to be able to see each other often enough? what's his ex like? what's the financial situation? where would we live? do we have similar spiritual beliefs? yada yada yada. my experience when young, by way of contrast, is that back then you're more open to building, you don't have that much yet, so it's more of a creative process with your partner. when you're older you already have a lot built and a lot of responsibilities and relationships so things are not quite so loose.

if i take something from socionics at the age that i am i say find a person who is basically psychologically compatible. for me this would be relations of activity, duality, illusion, semi-duality. but know yourself, your strengths and weaknesses and what you need. be ready to ask directly for what you need. if you have a person who is even in the ballpark of compatiblility then they will likely be willing and able to help you. but you hafta ask....so it's like, make the unconscious conscious. this willingness to learn and grow and negotiate and set limits and to forgive....these are the truly essential components i think. and any type can practice these skills.

one thing i really like about my current man is how we can talk endlessly about all kinds of interesting ideas. he has a pretty strong Ni, which i actually find totally helpful and interesting. now why would i find Ni helpful? theoretically, i would already have this as am embedded strength. but whatever, i am not sure i would get the same level of talking and intellectual consideration from my dual. so it's like a trade-off. but a good deal for me all things considered.

wow i went off on a big tangent here to a simple question, but i've been wanting to share these ideas for awhile. lol. dunno....zenbrat...what do you think about this?

[redbaron]

Just wanna say--great post, Sunshine. I very much resonate with a lot of what you've said here. There are so many more factors as you get older. And I do wonder how one's significant other (especially when not a dual) affects one over time. How can living with someone like that NOT have an affect?

[Blaze]

Just wanna say--great post, Sunshine. I very much resonate with a lot of what you've said here. There are so many more factors as you get older. And I do wonder how one's significant other (especially when not a dual) affects one over time. How can living with someone like that NOT have an affect?

thanx redbaron........glad you read my post. i always get afraid that people's eyes are going to glaze over when they see something long. but yeah, once socionics is more developed it would be great for somebody to take a look at the developmental process of type expression over time, and how people change based on their close intertype relations over time.

[zenbrat]

ah thanks i do so enjoy reading yours also it seems you're always on to something! you always seem to be posting something that gets me wanting to discuss and analyze or something. you've got good theories and observations, and you catch dynamics really well.

Thank you I usually feel like no one here 'gets' what I'm seeing because I don't believe socionics theory is the be-all-end-all of a personality. I love to observe and interact with people, then sort of flesh out their psychic paradigm - pulling info from various realms of psychology, behavioralism, the Enneagram, Socionics, MBTI and personal experience. I find merit in every system since these patterns apply IRL, consistently.

Plus, I'm 33. I've known a LOT of people, had relationships of every possible kind, raised kids, worked jobs in various environments, etc. Experience really is the best teacher - I rarely argue the theoretical principles of socionics because there are so many systems of thought than can be applied to 'understanding' an individual (including good 'ol intuition).

well i don't usually test as SLE but sometimes those tests are not great ways of diagnosing type. but i am up in the air about my type and am considering an alternative theory for how the types express themselves over time, over the lifespan.

it's something like you become more balanced as you age and as you get around a long term partner over time. your long term partner influences you quite a bit and you learn from them. i think this happens in a different way when your partner is NOT your dual. you change a lot being around a nondual or something. like i have pretty good Se for an ILE, if i am an ILE. also i don't really seek Si but i do enjoy it, but at this point i've lived so long without it that i've kind of learned how to fulfill these needs in other ways.

I agree with this concept of life span evolution, 100%. I believe that we incorporate and strengthen functional skills as we are faced with various life circumstances and interact with people who are different from ourselves.

Here's something you might find interesting, from MBTI:

The Leading Role (Dominant) (sometimes referred to as the 1st function)
The process that plays the leading role is the one that usually develops early in childhood.

The Supporting Role (Auxiliary) (sometimes referred to as the 2nd function)
Once we have developed some facility with our leading role process, we are more likely to feel comfortable engaging in our supporting role process.

The Relief Role (Tertiary) (sometimes referred to as the 3rd function)
Usually, in young adulthood we are attracted to activities that draw upon this process.

The Aspirational Role (Inferior) (sometimes referred to as the 4th function)
The aspirational role usually doesn’t develop until around midlife.

http://www.cognitiveprocesses.com/16types.html

you know we talk a lot on this forum about duality as the be-all end-all. it's not always practical to find your dual.

if i take something from socionics at the age that i am i say find a person who is basically psychologically compatible. for me this would be relations of activity, duality, illusion, semi-duality.

Agreed. I love my duals - they are mindmates, soulmates, playmates, but rarely ever 'heart-mates'. As an IEI, I do fall into the blind infatuation phase for a while, but eventually I begin to need that enduring spark/heat which is missing from duality. My best relationships were look-a-like, illusionary and activity. Second comes supervision.

My dual relationships are/were often fraught with early conflict, disappointment and eventual ennui. Duality is like a pair of comfy socks, a safe haven, a psychic resting place - not a hot romance. My duals and I usually remain long-time friends but find other romantic partners... strangely enough though, they tend to decide that I am "The One" a couple of years after I've determined they are not. Strange thing duality.

one thing i really like about my current man is how we can talk endlessly about all kinds of interesting ideas. he has a pretty strong Ni, which i actually find totally helpful and interesting. now why would i find Ni helpful? theoretically, i would already have this as am embedded strength. but whatever, i am not sure i would get the same level of talking and intellectual consideration from my dual. so it's like a trade-off. but a good deal for me all things considered.

I have *never* gotten the same level of mental stimulation from SLE that I get from my dearest ILE . We can talk about everything under the sun for hours and hours. He even helped me work through some of my 'committment issues' by challenging them daily LOL. Sometimes he just bowls me over, like a full-frontal psychic blast that leaves me stunned and wondering "holy christ, what was that?!" I love it though - shakes me up and gets me out of myself.

If I compare our interaction to the descriptions of Illusionary relations, I wouldn't say that we 'deactivate' each other. We just wear each other out and sort of (gladly) monopolize each others time because the interaction is so focused and intense. We do have to take a break from one another to deal with the other areas of our lives, or nothing would ever get done.

wow i went off on a big tangent here to a simple question, but i've been wanting to share these ideas for awhile. lol. dunno....zenbrat...what do you think about this?

Great tangent! We seem to have a very similar mindset and I really enjoyed your insights.

[zenbrat]

Just wanna say--great post, Sunshine. I very much resonate with a lot of what you've said here. There are so many more factors as you get older. And I do wonder how one's significant other (especially when not a dual) affects one over time. How can living with someone like that NOT have an affect?

I think non-duals force us to develop inferior processes. Duals never challenge them or force us to put them to use. Looking at it that way, I think duality may negatively affect personal growth but positively support self-esteem.

[Suomea]

Just for what it's worth Zenbrat I don't relate with the stating physical ailments about myself at all. Sometimes I'll say I'm tired to others if I really am tired... in those instances I'm not looking for sympathy at all, but mostly just want to be left alone to sleep and become my energetic self again. If anything I feel like the self depleting type who never complains about any physical ailments to the point where my body starts to give out on me. I feel like Si types would normally just see that and help me to relax and to worry about my health concerns and relaxing more.

[ScarlettLux]

Very, very insightful post zenbrat. I love to read your experiences w/ Duality ... seems like you've had quite a few? I'm really jealous.

So it really does feel very comfortable, but less of a spark? Hm isn't it supposed to like ... noone else really "gets" you in the long run & this is why you run to your dual when hell breaks loose and shit hits the fan? Tbqh, I'd rather have a real "hot" romance as opposed to comfort AT THIS STAGE in my life But I dunno, duality is strange to me.

[Ezra]

zenbrat avatar = hot.

I prefered her other one; the black-haired woman with red lips and (actual) white skin.

[zenbrat]

zenbrat avatar = hot.

I prefered her other one; the black-haired woman with red lips and (actual) white skin.

Thanks

[zenbrat]

Just for what it's worth Zenbrat I don't relate with the stating physical ailments about myself at all. Sometimes I'll say I'm tired to others if I really am tired... in those instances I'm not looking for sympathy at all, but mostly just want to be left alone to sleep and become my energetic self again. If anything I feel like the self depleting type who never complains about any physical ailments to the point where my body starts to give out on me. I feel like Si types would normally just see that and help me to relax and to worry about my health concerns and relaxing more.

I wonder if a type would begin a conversation with "how are you feeling"? I tend to only ask if a person exhibits signs of stress or malaise. If ENTp only communicates these things when run down, maybe there aren't enough types in his midst to ask, so he's learned to volunteer?

Very, very insightful post zenbrat. I love to read your experiences w/ Duality ... seems like you've had quite a few? I'm really jealous.

So it really does feel very comfortable, but less of a spark? Hm isn't it supposed to like ... noone else really "gets" you in the long run & this is why you run to your dual when hell breaks loose and shit hits the fan? Tbqh, I'd rather have a real "hot" romance as opposed to comfort AT THIS STAGE in my life But I dunno, duality is strange to me.

OMG, don't be jealous HA! SLE's are... wicked and wonderful all at once. I was raised by Ti SLE's (father and grandfather), so I think I am naturally drawn to this male archetype.

How can I explain it... it's not a romantic high. It's more of an 'inseperable' feeling but it's very comfortable. You just know that you can't stand living without them, and vice versa. Commitment is a sticking point, especially with Ti SLE's, but after a couple of years, they begin to realize how emotionally attached they are. When I was younger, I just didn't understand this. I always left around the 1 year mark. I was always surprised to find out how devastated they were - if you don't know the signs, it's easy to think the SLE isn't nearly as attached as you are.

[Blaze]

If I compare our interaction to the descriptions of Illusionary relations, I wouldn't say that we 'deactivate' each other. We just wear each other out and sort of (gladly) monopolize each others time because the interaction is so focused and intense. We do have to take a break from one another to deal with the other areas of our lives, or nothing would ever get done.

exactly. "i hafta pay my bills, man, see ya later." lol

great post though zenbrat you've got similar insights as i do about illusionary.

tell me, though, is sigma right? that in illusionary IEI misses "that tasty Se"? or ILE misses that "sweet Si"?

[misutii]

I too find duality has alot of stumbling blocks and takes A LOT of effort to work out. I honestly can't see myself dating an ESTp girl in the near future, the best way to make duality work seems to be going out and doing things together but that's fucking expensive lol, likelihood of INFp or ESTp having stable income in their 20s is like 1/10th of 3%, divide that by 2 for the probability of both doing so. Really I like being lazy and find I can have just as much fun playing with imaginary/abstract things, thus my illusionary(ENTp) or Mirror(ENFj) seems like a more suitable option. I suppose in like 10 years or so though I'll have the motivation to maybe seek out my dual and save her from the sleazy grasp of the dead-end philanderers she seems so apt to cycle through... but not right now

[redbaron]

It's been interesting observing the marriage of my brother and SIL. They're duals (he's INFp, she's ESTp) but they are in their mid-30s and still unsettled, career-wise. They work together VERY well (independent artists and make their living doing whatever my SIL is into at the moment) but it's hard to see them having a family because they are fly-by-the-seat-of their-pants people (economically and in terms of where they are living). I admire them very much on the one hand and I'm a bit jealous of their closeness. On the other hand, I fear that if one of them died, the other wouldn't know how to survive and might not even have the will to live. It's a pretty intense relationship yet very comfortable also. I love them both and it's great fun being with them. But I'm not sure I would trade what I have for what they have.

[zenbrat]

tell me, though, is sigma right? that in illusionary IEI misses "that tasty Se"? or ILE misses that "sweet Si"?

To me, ILE is 'arier', more verbal, lighter. It lifts me, and ILE meets me there mentally and physically, but SLE grounds me. I experience a feeling of being grounded, held firm - this is what I need.

Sometimes I feel like I am going to slide away or shake apart. ILE keeps me from sliding donward but can't keep me 'still'. I just spin and hum inside, out of sorts and shaky. Mental energy can run too high and I need to cling to something solid and unmoving.

ILE interaction is exhilirating and uplifting. SLE interaction is calming and balancing. Both are great, but very different.

Like...

I'm the wave. ILE is the boat. The boat is in motion. I crash into the boat and it crashes back. Back and forth - energy is continually produced. Eventually we just exhaust each other - but there's nothing within us to calm or restore the other.

I'm the wave. SLE is the shore. The shore is unmoving. I crash into the shore and spread out. The shore calms the force of the wave. It balances my energy and warms me. I am restored. The wave recedes and I find balance, congruency again.

[redbaron]

To me, ILE is 'arier', more verbal, lighter. It lifts me, and ILE meets me there mentally and physically, but SLE grounds me. I experience a feeling of being grounded, held firm - this is what I need.

Sometimes I feel like I am going to slide away or shake apart. ILE keeps me from sliding donward but can't keep me 'still'. I just spin and hum inside, out of sorts and shaky. Mental energy can run too high and I need to cling to something solid and unmoving.

ILE interaction is exhilirating and uplifting. SLE interaction is calming and balancing. Both are great, but very different.

Like...

I'm the wave. ILE is the boat. The boat is in motion. I crash into the boat and it crashes back. Back and forth - energy is continually produced. Eventually we just exhaust each other - but there's nothing within us to calm or restore the other.

I'm the wave. SLE is the shore. The shore is unmoving. I crash into the shore and spread out. The shore calms the force of the wave. It balances my energy and warms me. I am restored. The wave recedes and I find balance, congruency again.

That is seriously an awesome analogy. Fabulous. I need the shore....where o where is the shore.....

[Blaze]

i really think i am XLE then. infpman says i hold him accountable. that i ground us. he calms me down. and we both energize each other. i find his Ni to be both stimulating (when we are exchanging a lot of ideas) and soothing (when i've got a problem that i can't see the end of). he finds balance in my Ne/Se.

guess i'm a cross-type.

[redbaron]

i really think i am XLE then. infpman says i hold him accountable. that i ground us. he calms me down. and we both energize each other. i find his Ni to be both stimulating (when we are exchanging a lot of ideas) and soothing (when i've got a problem that i can't see the end of). he finds balance in my Ne/Se.

guess i'm a cross-type.

dual-type theory, baby. LOL